Vulcan and money

[aviate1138]

I see they want a mere extra £400,000 just to keep flying this year!

Why leave it till the last moment to cry for help? Again! :(

Some of the foreign aid that Cameron throws away should do the job.

[Dash8driver1312]

A Vulcan can provide 21,000lbs of foreign aid too...

[Simplythebeast]

Also a fair amount of instant sunshine if required.

[chiglet]

It's like the Lifeboats.... Ethnics don't use it, ergo, NO funding.

[Sir George Cayley]

I've had a longstanding problem with the Vulcan to the Sky charity.

The annual 'we need x to keep flying' sits awkwardly with the massive volunteer fundraising efforts seen around the air show circuit. Add to that some hefty remuneration for some makes me wonder why if these people are worth so much why they need to put out such a large annual begging bowl>

Trashing 2 engines for the sake of a proper pre flight safety system just adds to the feeling that summats wrong.

SGC

[Dr Jekyll]

Why leave it till the last moment to cry for help? Again!

They are raising funds continually.

[India Four Two]

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Vulcan To The Sky Trust financials on the Charity Commission website (http://tinyurl.com/q5oyrgf). (http://tinyurl.com/q5oyrgf)

The latest figures are for 2012. The trust had an income of £2.2 million, of which £1.7 million was voluntary contributions.

What I found hard to believe was that they spent £0.5 million on "Generating Voluntary Income". That's nearly a third of the contributions! Unbelievable! :eek:

[PAXboy]

Eventually it will HAVE to stay on the ground. Perhaps they should just cut to the chase and start collecting funds for a hanger and exhibition space.

[FlightlessParrot]

What I found hard to believe was that they spent £0.5 million on "Generating Voluntary Income". That's nearly a third of the contributions! Unbelievable!

Fund raising is a big industry now. Those friendly young people who ask you to sign up to long term commitments to some worthy cause or other are NOT working for the worthy cause, but for the fundraiser the cause has hired. I don't know what the average costs are, but there's a rumor that the first year's donation mostly goes to the fundraiser. More snouts in the trough.

[Evanelpus]

Well said Sir GC.

For Vulcan, read Marmite.;)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Once I saw a VTTS display and saw it was a shadow of the RAF displays of old (to preserve fatigue and engine life presumably) I thought 'what's the point?'.

There must be many younger folk around who have only ever seen a VTTS display and think they've seen a real Vulcan display; they have not!

They should give as many 'balls out' RAF-style displays as the engines and structure will allow (even if that's only one show!) just for those who've never seen one, then retire the old girl to a museum. What they do instead, pussy-footing it around the sky to eek out its life, is completely pointless.

Except it provides a nice cosy income for certain individuals......

[gordonroxburgh]

For the amount of money spent on the Vulcan year on year , think of the custom built hangars we could have had in our museums throughout the UK to house our historical aviation artefacts.

[PAXboy]

Too many precious machines have been lost. If memory serves, we have airworthy Mossie? People love to display them and then the one thing goes wrong.

Get lots of top quality video in HD, with air-to-air, then a lovely hanger and museum where folks can see things and hear things and all the rest. I will give money for that but not for her to fly for display only.

[Dr Jekyll]

For the amount of money spent on the Vulcan year on year , think of the custom built hangars we could have had in our museums throughout the UK to house our historical aviation artefacts.

The money spent on the Vulcan has been donated by those who want to see the Vulcan fly. Why do people find this so difficult to grasp?

If you want to solicit donations for custom built hangars nobody is stopping you.

[BEagle]

A pity that the Vulcan won't be seen at RIAT as that might have attracted a few more donors....

Quite a few people make small regular donations and I'm never sure whether the 'appeals' take that into account? 4000 people donating £25 per month over 4 months would cover it - but are there that many?

Incidentally, I think that the current display is far more graceful and impressive than some of the clumsy, stress-inducing displays by VDF. Every time I saw the apple-spitting gibbon doing that stupid wing-waggle on climb out, I winced at the thought of the damage it was doing.

The RAF hadn't looked after '558 particularly well in its latter days - as the degree of corrosion showed only too clearly, once certain panels were removed for inspection.....

If you want to see a Vulcan in a museum, go to Duxford.

[gordonroxburgh]

The money spent on the Vulcan has been donated by those who want to see the Vulcan fly. Why do people find this so difficult to grasp?

If you want to solicit donations for custom built hangars nobody is stopping you.

The part you find difficult to grasp is that people generally only have so much free cash to give to worthwhile causes annually.

In aviation historical circles the Vulcan has take away quite a bit of that free cash year on year, as people do find it a worthwhile cause.

People are more than welcome to donate to whoever they wish, but generally donations to aviation related good causes in the UK have fallen while the vulcan has been flying.

[Dr Jekyll]

The part you find difficult to grasp is that people generally only have so much free cash to give to worthwhile causes annually.

In aviation historical circles the Vulcan has take away quite a bit of that free cash year on year, as people do find it a worthwhile cause.

People are more than welcome to donate to whoever they wish, but generally donations to aviation related good causes in the UK have fallen while the vulcan has been flying.

But this is precisely the point. You are arguing that the Vulcan be grounded in favour of other projects on the grounds that the public clearly prefer the Vulcan to those other projects.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Incidentally, I think that the current display is far more graceful and impressive than some of the clumsy, stress-inducing displays by VDF. Every time I saw the apple-spitting gibbon doing that stupid wing-waggle on climb out, I winced at the thought of the damage it was doing.

I have no idea who the 'apple spitting gibbon' is, but wing waggles don't impress me (I'm not qualified to assess what it does to a Vulcan airframe).

I remember the RAF displays at Barton and Woodford and they were so much more impressive for their demonstration of sheer power and noise than VTTS displays. To see a tennis-court-sized bomber thrown around the sky and stood on its tail at max power (which was felt in one's chest and through one's feet as the airfield itself vibrated) was something not to be forgotten.

You won't get that at a VTTS display, even if the flying is more 'professional'. They simply can't as they have to preserve the airframe and engines for as long as possible.

Ditch that. Go balls-out, even if just once, to show today's punters how impressive an unrestrained Vulcan can be, then ground her. She'll be grounded soon anyway so only those drawing nice salaries will suffer if she goes to a museum sooner rather than later.

[Blacksheep]

A Vulcan is a complex device for turning money into wake vortices and kerosene fumes.

[JW411]

Dash8driver1312:

"A Vulcan can provide 21,000 lbs of foreign aid too......"

I attended a fire-power demonstration on Larkhill on Salisbury Plain when I was a 19 year-old officer cadet. The last item on the programme was a Vulcan dropping 21 x 1,000 lb bombs not a million miles away from the audience.It was VERY impressive.

[WH904]

Wonder if they could save money by abandoning the full display and just doing take-offs, landings, rollers, etc. Everyone seems to whine and moan about how tame and distant the display is now (compared to Joe L'Estrange's RAF displays no doubt!), but that's hardly the Vulcan people's fault (guess the blame for most of that lays at the CAA's door). So why waste money on the bits that people don't even like?

Just as odd is their claim that the money they get for displays doesn't cover all the costs (or so I read). If so, then why don't they charge more? I sincerely hope that (for example) they didn't make a loss on the long journey to Goodwood, where the petrol heads couldn't even be bothered to show XH558 on their TV coverage, and chose to show cars while the display was in progress. If that's how much they care about 558, why did they bother displaying there? Let's hope they made a fat profit, but I'm guessing they didn't.

Now I see they have to fly at Farnborough to be "validated" - but does Farnborough pay for this unnecessary flight? Let me guess...

Last week they wasted two hours flying round Sywell with the Blades (what is this obsession they have with the Blades?). Supposedly to fulfil a competition they arranged. Did all that fuel cover the revenue from the competition?

Like so many people, I get the impression that an awful lot of money that is donated to the Vulcan, simply gets p**ed against the proverbial wall.

[DaveReidUK]

Wonder if they could save money by abandoning the full display and just doing take-offs, landings, rollers, etc.I would imagine the operational budget for landing gear and engine maintenance is predicated on the assumption of one takeoff and one landing per display, nice though a Vulcan T&G would be to watch.

Now I see they have to fly at Farnborough to be "validated" - but does Farnborough pay for this unnecessary flight?Every aircraft that displays at Farnborough requires a validation flight - those have been taking place all this week.

[WH904]

Yes, the main costs will be incurred on any display, but the additional fuel (and fatigue) that is spent on a display seems pointless when almost everyone complains that the display is too tame. If nobody likes it then why do it?

Yes, everyone has to fly a validation flight at Farnborough but that's not my point. If Farnborough expect a validation flight then they're effectively asking for a full display for free? If they expect money (and fatigue) to be used, then they should pay for it. If not, then it's a simple case of saying you can't have what you're not prepared to pay for.

There seems to be a lot of flexibility in what the Vulcan people are prepared to accept and decline, depending on who they favour - or otherwise. Okay, they're entitled to do whatever they like... but one has to remember that they're making all these decisions with other people's money.

[BEagle]

WH904 wrote: If Farnborough expect a validation flight then they're effectively asking for a full display for free?

Nonsense. The purpose of the validation flight is to assure the display committee that the aircraft's display is safe or to require changes to be made.

Do you contribute to keeping '558 flying? If not, I suggest you STFU and accept that those who do contribute are happy to do so and for VTTS to use their budget to the benefit of the majority.

If the F-35B doesn't come to RIAT, perhaps there could be space for '558 to display?

[Phileas Fogg]

I'll never forget the week before my passing out parade at Swinderby during 1976, their parade had been in a hangar due to inclement weather so rather than do a quickie fly-by they had a Vulcan do a full display including, I was told they called it "stall diving" where it comes down vertically whilst turning like a corkscrew, I knew nothing about aircraft at the time so I could only question "What the **** is that?" to be informed it was an Avro Vulcan.

Ever since I've had a soft spot for the old girl but what is this obsession that some have with it? ... Yes, for it's era, it's a beautiful piece of kit, but did it ever save UK from speaking German or indeed Russian, did it destroy any dams, did it actually hit it's target during the few weeks of it's career when it was engaged in "warfare"?

I mean "yes" it's a beautiful piece of kit but it ain't a Spitfire, it ain't a Hurricane, it ain't a Lancaster, it ain't a Swordfish, all of which had significantly more distinguished careers than the Vulcan ever did and use a lot less fuel between the lot of them than the Vulcan uses!

How much does one of these New Zealand built Mosquito's cost? ... I know what I'd spend my money on :)

[WH904]

BEagle, I don't understand your logic here. By definition, Farnborough ARE expecting a display for free unless they pay for it, aren't they? They can call it what they like but in terms of cost/fatigue, that's what they're getting. It's ridiculous. Pay for the display and the validation display, or get neither, surely?

Phileas, I'm not sure I'd agree with your sentiments. Yes, the Spit, Hurricane, Swordfish and Lancaster are of course iconic aircraft but the Vulcan is no less significant. You can't say that the Vulcan's career was any less distinguished. One could argue that the Vulcan was more significant, in that the other aircraft fought against the threat of Nazi rule. The Vulcan, by comparison, protected us from oblivion.

[Bergerie1]

Roly Falk at Farnborough:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPuTgcrA2Zs

[Phileas Fogg]

The Vulcan, by comparison, protected us from oblivion.

WH904,

The Cold War was not a war, it was a game of "Cat and mouse" that continues to this day.

Only a few years ago UK had the formation of 8 "bear's" (64 very noisy propellers in close formation) attempting to penetrating it's airspace, reading recently the Russian's are teasing the American's with similar stunts, where is the force of V Bombers to protect UK now?

If one side launches a nuke then the other side launches a nuke in response, one side isn't going to launch because they know what will be coming in the other direction!

Look at what the Harrier/Sea Harrier did for UK back in 1982 regardless of what a technology breakthrough a VTOL jet aircraft was, a first of it's kind, there's no "singing and dancing" to try to get a Harrier on to the civilian register that would guzzle a lot less fuel than a Vulcan guzzles.

[WH904]

where is the force of V Bombers to protect UK now?
Good question :)

no "singing and dancing" to try to get a Harrier on to the civilian register
I guess that's not through lack of interest - more the knowledge that the CAA wouldn't allow it :(

[500N]

Vulcan dropping 21 x 1,000 lb bombs not a million miles away from the audience.It was VERY impressive.


Even more impressive when you fly 12,600 miles and a total of 16 hours and drop them on unsuspecting Argentinians :ok:

[DaveReidUK]

Only a few years ago UK had the formation of 8 "bear's" (64 very noisy propellers in close formation) attempting to penetrating it's airspaceSo what did we do, shoot them down ?

Joking aside, the Russians have been sending Tu-95s to probe UK (and other nations') air defences for the best part of 50 years, one of the objects of the missions being to see how quickly we can get a couple of fighters up to escort them.

That's not quite the same as "attempting to penetrate" UK airspace, though of course we'll never known until the day the RAF doesn't intercept them in time. :O But even then, I would still expect them to turn round at the airspace boundary as they invariably do.

Incidentally, I remember organising a lecture around 1970 by two Leuchars Lightning pilots, who said that the Russian tail gunners went out of their way to be friendly, waving and indicating that they would like the RAF pilots to raise their bone dome visors - the object being to photograph the pilots so that over time they could build up a picture of the RAF's frontline aircrew strength.

[500N]

the object being to photograph the pilots so that over time they could build up a picture of the RAF's frontline aircrew strength.

I could think of far easier ways to achieve that than flying Bears to the UK on the off chance of taking a photo.

Anyway, I think one of the pilots said on here they held up Page 3 pictures :O

And the pilots weren't so friendly, I think it was Courtney who said while he was underneath the bear trying to read the numbers the pilot gradually descended trying to achieve a CFIT :rolleyes:

[DaveReidUK]

flying Bears to the UK on the off chance of taking a photoI don't recall saying that was the purpose of the missions. :ugh:

[Groundloop]

A lot of people on here complaining about how "tame" the Vulcan display is compared with years gone by. However the vast majority of people attending airshows today would never have seen an old-style Vulcan display - so the comparison is irrelevant.

Also, would be a bit difficult to do take-offs and touch and gos at the many seaside airshows these days!:ok:

where is the force of V Bombers to protect UK now?

They stopped doing that particular part of the job (for the most part) when the Navy took over the deterrent role at the end of the 1960's.

[WH904]

True, it would be difficult to do much at a seaside show. It just seems so pointless to waste fuel and fatigue on a full display that nobody seems to appreciate. A close fly-by and a noisy climb is probably all that is necessary - and on that basis I'm guessing they could probably tweak an extra year or so out of the engines. It's silly to imagine that the Vulcan could be thrown around like Joe used to do back in the 70s and 80s so I can't help thinking the full display is simply a waste now. A lot of short flying appearances surely ought to be better than fewer full displays that nobody even appreciates?

[bobward]

The arguments above have been raging off and on for years. Neither side will convince the other to change their point of view. The one thing that is certain is that within a very short time XH558 will land for the very last time, never to fly again.

Why not just enjoy it whilst you can?

Why not start a campaign to pressure the CAA into letting some of our historic jets fly again? There were Buccaneers and Lightnings flying in South Africa recently, and even a Sea Harrier in the States, yet nothing in the country that developed, produced and then flew them for real for decades.

That is something of which I feel sad and ashamed, although no doubt the jobsworths and Elfansafey people feel a deep satisfaction as they spend their inflation proof pensions........

(Must go now, the nurse just called me to take my medication:O:sad::eek:)

[Phileas Fogg]

Only a few years ago UK had the formation of 8 "bear's" (64 very noisy propellers in close formation) attempting to penetrating it's airspace

So what did we do, shoot them down ?

So precisely what use would a Vulcan have been had "we" wanted to shoot them down? :)

[WH904]

Phileas, I think you're misunderstanding the concept of deterrence. Bears testing the edges of our air defence zone are nothing to do with Mutually Assured Destruction. These constant incursions are a separate issue that have always taken place, and probably always will. The V-Force was at the core of our defence, ensuring that the Soviets would not seriously contemplate a first strike. The fact that it never happened illustrates that the V-Force worked. It's that simple. Of course we've moved on now to ICBMs etc., but my point was that the Vulcan was arguably more significant than any of the WWII aircraft that are always portrayed as "icons" etc.

bobward, I agree with you. Ultimately, the thing to do is enjoy XH558 while you can. My point was just that we could probably enjoy the Vulcan a little longer if fatigue/engine life wasn't wasted on full displays that (on the basis of comments) most people don't even appreciate.

I also agree that it would be nice if we could campaign to get the CAA to change its attitude towards jets. I've pushed that idea before but nobody seems to have the enthusiasm to do anything about it. The answer I always get is that the CAA have their rules and that's that. Nobody ever suggests that the CAA should change their rules - it's as if they dictate from on high and we are obliged to roll over and accept it!

[Phileas Fogg]

WH904,

Believe it or not I served in the 1970's "Cold War" RAF.

I heard all the stories of how the Russians would shadow a Vulcan and then send "us" the pics of them photographing a Vulcan undetected only for "us" to respond with a Vulcan shadowing and photographing their aircraft whilst undetected and "us" sending them the pics.

As I said previously it was all a game of cat and mouse.

The nearest I got to seeing a Russian during my service was during a taceval when a Shackleton calling itself "Trotsky whatever" requested asylum and we needed to rugby tackle some of our fellow servicemen as they attempted to "leg it" across Lyneham airfield whilst wearing Russian headgear. :)

[Groundloop]

My point was just that we could probably enjoy the Vulcan a little longer if fatigue/engine life wasn't wasted on full displays that (on the basis of comments) most people don't even appreciate.

And my point was that it is only a few older enthusiasts that, apparently, don't appreciate the full display. Many more people who have not seen an old-time display DO appreciate it.

[WH904]

I'd be inclined to think the same but reading comments on enthusiast sites, there are lots of younger people too who think the same way. It doesn't make sense when few of them have ever seen a really spirited Vulcan display, so I can only assume it's a sort of "word of mouth" thing that has convinced them that the display could be far more flamboyant. I have to say that I'm starting to think that the display is rather pointless when so much of it is very distant.

I guess it matters not - whatever we might think, we know from experience that the Vulcan people won't be taking any notice! :)

[Phileas Fogg]

As a comparison ... for a few years I worked at Ostend Airport and roads would be closed such a big event was the air show there, and I hasten to add the year I refer to was the year before the "nasty" at the Ostend air show that caused air shows to become illegal in Belgium.

Well out of our offices window the former Chief Pilot of Air America "Pete Parker" and myself climbed on to the roof of the cargo building, Ostend Airport is literally on the beach so anything coming in low across the sea, concealed by the sand dunes, one couldn't see, I hasten to add that Pete had been taught to fly by his mother whilst his father stood on the wings and he had held a commercial pilot's licence from the age of 16 until he was forced to retire from flying aged 65.

Well first it was the Red Arrows in over the sands dunes but when the BBMF did the same dear old Pete (RIP) was in his element with the Spitfire, the Hurricane and the Lanc, I couldn't possibly repeat his language here but he enjoyed the show :)

Now what can be said for a (civilian) Vulcan display?

[WH904]

I don't think anything has to be said - the Vulcan's appearance speaks for itself. It attracts a very big audience. For example, last week's arrival at Waddington saw the WAVE car park filled to capacity (it was closed off) with people waiting for more than two hours just to see the Vulcan land. I doubt if more than a handful of people would even bother to go see the BBMF arrive. You can go to Finningley any day that the Vulcan is flying and the surrounding road is crammed with cars and spectators. That's not a biased view either (I think the BBMF aircraft are great too) it's just reality.

[surely not]

I find myself agreeing with those who question if the money, time and effort that is spent on the Vulcan couldn't be better used on other things, such as covered housings for the VC10, Comet, Britannia etc at Duxford.

Without action being taken to provide protection the large British built civil airliners currently standing outside in the open will rot away and have to be scrapped. To lose this part of our aviation heritage would be a far greater loss than being deprived of a 5-10 minutes display by the Vulcan.

It does seem that the Vulcan is unable to generate anything like enough money to keep it flying from its show appearances and requires lottery funding and large donations to continue. If it really is able to draw in thousands of additional spectators to events (something I doubt) then I can only assume that they are selling it too cheaply.

An iconic aircraft for sure, but as a display aircraft it seems it doesn't work commercially.

[WH904]

I agree that support should be given to get aircraft under cover, but it's not an "either or" situation. It's not as if the donations for XH558 can somehow be diverted to something else.

True, the Vulcan doesn't seem to generate enough revenue from air display bookings, but it survives through other support of course. This is why I raised the issue of Farnborough - I agree with you that it is being "sold too cheaply" in some respects. I was amazed to see that the Vulcan flew not one but two validation displays at Farnborough today. Both for private eyes only despite being paid for by donations, not Farnborough. I don't know who is worse - Farnborough for expecting two full displays for free, or the Vulcan people for accepting this. It's quite laughable how a validation display is needed just because of their rules - change the damned rules then and stop wasting people's money?!

[DaveReidUK]

It's quite laughable how a validation display is needed just because of their rules - change the damned rules then and stop wasting people's money?!Google John Derry if you don't understand the need for display routines to be validated at Farnborough.

If the Vulcan did two, it's likely that one will have been the full routine and the other the flat version to be used with a low cloud base.

[WH904]

Two were needed so that two crews could be validated - as if the whole notion wasn't already ludicrous enough.

Don't need to Google Derry - that's precisely the kind of nonsense that has got us into this situation in the first place. All that needs to be done is to set-out precise rules (and preferably rules that aren't as ridiculous as the ones we currently have), and then expect pilots to stick to them. What's the point of a validation display if the public appearance isn't precisely the same? The whole idea is ridiculous, because no matter how many validations are flown, there's no guarantee that the actual display will match it.

But regardless of Farnborough's silly rules, they obviously shouldn't apply to an aircraft that requires so much public funding. It wouldn't have hurt Farnborough's "experts" to simply go watch a display somewhere else and make a validation judgement on that. Or just grow-up and accept that the Vulcan crews know what they're doing and don't need to be second-guessed by anyone.

Either way, it's unfair to expect fuel, fatigue and engine life to be wasted on two displays that are patently unnecessary. It's even more offensive to not even pay for them. If Farnborough wants to impose rules then they should expect to pay for them.

Can't help feeling that Farnborough has a slightly over-inflated option of itself. Obviously it was once a hugely important world event, but maybe they ought to accept that business and commercialism aside, the actual flying display barely raises an eyebrow now.They ought to be grateful that they've got the Vulcan and be using some of their huge revenue to pay for it, not just some of it.

[surely not]

Farnborough is primarily a sales exhibition where aviation companies carry out business and make money for their companies, it is only an 'air display' because customers who might buy an aeroplane like to see their purchases being shown off in the air. For these companies the display validation costs are a small price to pay for the potential money they will earn from sales.

It would seem logical to think that someone in the Vulcan to the Sky circus has carried out an exercise to see whether the costs incurred by being at Farnborough bring in revenue greater than the outlay for being there. If they haven't then that is their problem.

I very much doubt that the Vulcans presence brings in any additional spectators/business persons to Farnborough so why would the organisers make it a special case on display validation, or subsidise the validations, for it to be there?

If it loses money by being there, then why send it there?

[Dr Jekyll]

I very much doubt that the Vulcans presence brings in any additional spectators/business persons to Farnborough so why would the organisers make it a special case on display validation, or subsidise the validations, for it to be there?


Most of the displays at Farnborough are not flown regular display pilots, more likely by test pilots. I think acts like the Vulcan, Meteor, Vampire etc are a special case because they do displays on a regular basis and are already validated by the CAA.

[WH904]

One assumes that it does bring in lots of spectators, but essentially the enthusiast type, not industry people. I must say I also have to wonder whether there is any monetary gain in sending the Vulcan there. I suppose the Vulcan people know but like everything they do, they don't tell us!

[SPIT]

With all the fuss over a second Lanc (A REAL PLANE) coming to he
UK this year would not it be better to spend/collect any cash to get JUST JANE (NX 611) flying. I think this would be a real crowd puller ??? :ok::ok::

[Wander00]

Spit - now there's a good suggestion, plus a Mossie peut etre..............

[WH904]

But as I mentioned above, there's no "either or" situation. One can't ask the people who have donated to the Vulcan to shift their donations to something else! :)

[DaveReidUK]

What's the point of a validation display if the public appearance isn't precisely the same? The whole idea is ridiculous, because no matter how many validations are flown, there's no guarantee that the actual display will match it.That's a non-sequitur. The purpose of the validation flight is to demonstrate that the pilot(s) can fly a safe display, remaining within the confines of the defined display volume at all times and flying the prescribed "out-up, in-down" profile, as Farnborough like to term it.

Yes of course the validation flight doesn't guarantee that the actual display will match, how could it?

But the potential sanctions for a non-conforming display are fairly severe. The T&Cs that all displaying pilots sign up to allow the Display Director to order a pilot to land immediately after an infringement and, if deemed necessary, to cancel the aircraft's display on subsequent days.

That aside, I'm very tempted to go and look over the fence one day next week (I've worked enough trade days at Farnborough in the past not to want to endure any as a visitor). I've yet to see XH558 display, and I don't particularly mind if it doesn't perform any daring manoeuvres - I've seen plenty of Vulcan displays over the last 40-odd years and I'd be happy just to see the old girl take off, fly a couple of circuits and land again.

If that puts me in the minority, I don't care.

[cockney steve]

as a display aircraft it seems it doesn't work commercially.
Nail, Head.
Whilst the Tin Triangle is, no doubt, a very impressive beast, it's also a huge money-pit....unfortunately, it shares the same problem as most Historic Airliners.
There's no way to sell flight-experiences to the Richard Bransons of this world, or the sort of wealthy adventurer who has booked one of R.B's space-flights.

Therefore, logically, every single Vulcan flight is subsidised
I really doubt if the few fat-cats who have their snouts in the trough of "vulcan enterprises" actually make much of a dent in the ginormous overall budget......whilst it's a substantial remuneration for an individual (irrespective of their questionable business acumen and value for money),- it's nowt compared with, say, the fuel bill.

AFAIK, it's still free of charge to look up into the sky, therefore the validation flights are free to watch to all-comers who can find a suitable vantage-point.
Of course, it does help to know when the flights are taking place- I guess they are not well publicised for fear of diluting the paying punter stream at the actual display.

Try charging the full cost of a display and it would sit idle most of the season.
whilst the custodians can keep it on the display circuit,they can justify their job and remuneration.

[WH904]

But as you say Dave, how could an actual display ever match a validation flight? Therefore, it's pointless. Seems very simple to me - if Farnborough expects two validation flights then they pay for them. I suspect part of the issue is that the Vulcan people are actually happy to meet Farnborough's requirements because they seem to be particularly fond of attending the show. Not sure why - perhaps they perceive it as a good revenue-raising event? It would be nice to know but, as ever...

Steve, I think you may well be right with some of the comments you made there :)

It's a strange business. It's a real joy that the Vulcan is still flying but the events that surround it really do leave, shall we say, a nasty taste.

[Dr Jekyll]

I suspect part of the issue is that the Vulcan people are actually happy to meet Farnborough's requirements because they seem to be particularly fond of attending the show. Not sure why - perhaps they perceive it as a good revenue-raising event? It would be nice to know but, as ever...


Ultimately they raise revenue in order to display the aircraft not the other way round, so there is a lot to be said for attending one the UKs premier airshows.

[John Farley]

WH904

I am quite a fan of many of your posts on other topics but I think you may be a tad out of your depth when it comes to air displays and validation of same.

Just to mention one of many points that make validation flights necessary, pilots need to see the actual/best visual cues on the ground to sort out their speed and height gates (to say nothing of turn rate issues) especially when the surrounding area has complex height and avoid areas. The validation flights are really practice opportunities for the pilots - during which the display supervisors also have an opportunity to check that the display flown is in accordance with the brief submitted in writing by the pilot in the weeks before the show.

Farnborough specifically is a tricky area in which to fly a display and even the Red Arrows do a validation flight there to help their leader get himself sorted.

In my opinion your comments regarding Farnborough's rules do not reflect what it is like to fly a display there.

JF

[WH904]

Well as I said before, I'm not questioning the validity of validation displays (couldn't resist the pun), it's the case of XH558 that seems absurd. Farnborough know how cash-sensitive the project is, so if they must have a validation flight then so be it, but surely they should be paying for it. If not, then no display at all?

[John Farley]

WH904

If you read my post I hope you will see that I believe the validation routines benefit the pilots not the show organisers.

JF

[ErwinS]

Just on a side note.

I am very very happy that I have seen the Vulcan on several occasions.
I only knew here from the books and never thought to see one active.

Altough it is a very costly operation I am very glad that she did get into the air.

Grtz
From NL

[wonderboysteve]

One assumes that it does bring in lots of spectators, but essentially the enthusiast type, not industry people. I must say I also have to wonder whether there is any monetary gain in sending the Vulcan there. I suppose the Vulcan people know but like everything they do, they don't tell us!

1) Not sure what point you are trying to make. The objective of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust is to demonstrate a flying Vulcan in front of the public. As Farnborough is one of the biggest airshows in the country and the aircraft is flying on the Friday (futures day) and weekend (public days), being there would seem consistent with the VTTST objectives

2) The VTTST website makes it clear about where the negotiations start in terms of charges for a display. There is also a great deal of information available about the costs of operating the aircraft. As a charity, the directors of VTTST are duty bound to operate in a way that ensures its stated objectives are best met, overseen by the trustees. One wouldn't necessarily expect the details of how attendance at Farnborough is projected to make money for VTTST (that could be at odds with the objective of displaying the aircraft in the future by damaging the negotiating position), but you are surely correct in your assertion that the 'Vulcan people' do know the answer, as the thousands of people who have backed the project would expect.

[WH904]

Well you can see what my point was if you read the previous posts. John Farley makes some valid points on that subject too and naturally he knows far more about the realities of flying at Farnborough than anyone else on this forum, I suspect! But regardless of the value of validation displays, I was simply suggesting that it should a case of paying for everything or getting nothing? Farnborough is indeed a big show but it's certainly not the event it once was, and I don't see why it should be regarded as being "special." If it is, then so is the Vulcan?

Yes, VTTS do publish a lot of information about their project, but they also keep an awful lot of information to themselves - we know this only too well, having argued over various aspects of the project ever since it started. That was the reason for my slightly sarcastic comment on that subject :)

[wonderboysteve]

WH904,

Apologies, I see that the first sentence of the quote was a response to the previous post.

However, as to your wider point, both sides obviously knew the score in advance. VTTST knew that the aircraft would need to conduct a validation display and would have attached a cost to that, to be factored into the quote to appear at Farnborough. VTTST would want the aircraft to fly there because it is a very large airshow (in an objective sense, compared to other events) and hence suits their objectives. Having invested in the project the supporters of the aircraft might reasonably expect the aircraft to be there. There are other, longer term reasons to be there too, as made clear in the most recent newsletter. As such, I'm not sure what it is that you think VTTST is hiding?

[WH904]

Not suggesting VTTS is hiding anything regarding Farnborough - I assume nobody else has even raised the issue.

[Capetonian]

Video: Rare ride inside the world's last airworthy Vulcan - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11047922/Rare-ride-inside-the-worlds-last-airworthy-Vulcan.html)