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theothersimon
13th Jun 2014, 09:06
Was traveling with the family a few weeks ago and got an interesting seating allocation.

Two adults, two children traveling on a 737-800, so 3-3 seating. The airline allocated us three seats together and then a separate one. Fair enough.

What got me though was that the names on the boarding cards meant that the separate seat was allocated to the six-year-old, which meant there was no legal way we could sit in the seats allocated to us. It's not difficult to swap the seats between the group, and put one of the adults in the separate seat, so this isn't the biggest issue in the world.

Am I overreacting in being bothered by this?

ezycrew
13th Jun 2014, 09:16
It's not a big deal as you say, you could change seats so that an adult was separate from the rest of the group.
The crew on-board would make sure you where all seated together if it was a single adult and two children travelling.

ExXB
13th Jun 2014, 09:16
no legal way we could sit in the seats allocated to us

Er, I don't think you are doing anything illegal by switching within your group or even with another passenger.

Reservations systems (which handle bookings, passenger names, ages, etc. and Departure Control systems (which handle seat allocation and other things) are often not that closely linked. While there is some crossover their integration certainly isn't perfect. Some LCCs, who've recently moved to assigned seating, have had to add this functionality on top of a basic reservations system. It likely is going to be a learning curve until they achieve perfection. :hmm:

Take their assignments to be 'suggestions' and seat yourselves where it makes sense to.

In very rare cases you may find that the crew will not want you to move too much in the aircraft for weight and balance reasons. But I don't think this happens that often any more.

fa2fi
13th Jun 2014, 10:45
Whenever I see complaints of this nature from horrified parents that their child is sat away from them is from people travelling in groups with two or more people sat together and their child sat away from them. It's very simple: parent/guardian 1 sits with child, and parent/guardian 2 sits alone, a complete non-issue.

theothersimon
13th Jun 2014, 12:29
I'm just very surprised that the issue was not solved at source. Given the emphasis on short turnarounds and on-time departures, it came as quite a surprise that the airline was willing to waste fifteen minutes of cabin crew time to sort out the multiple seating issues caused by a poor seating allocation algorithm.

As this was a full flight to a holiday destination, there were eight or nine families that needed cabin crew intervention to get them seated with the right number of children next to adults, and the right number of infant-in-arms in the rows. Perhaps I had too high an expectation of the systems integration.

Heathrow Harry
13th Jun 2014, 14:03
A few years back I was on LHR-ABZ with BA and some genius had managed to scatter the whole of a school year (?9 year-olds) from Banchory Junior School and their teachers and family at random through the aircraft

One lad was in 1A and there was no-one around him (he thought it was bloody marvelous of course)

Common sense prevailed and the aircraft was "reconfigured" to put the school party all together in the back with an adult on each aisle seat

An American lady started to complain but the flinty looks she got from the other passengers soon shut her up

fa2fi
13th Jun 2014, 14:58
In fairness though some of one families may not have paid for allocated seating. If people want seats all together then they need to pay for it.

In my days as crew some people would demand the aircraft be moved to sit them all together but getting an adult with the child(ren) was the priority, not getting the other adult, their mate, their mate's wife and their kids all sat in one big group. However you always have to give people the benefit of the doubt as they may have checked in last or suitable seats may not have been available since the time of purchase.

Working at an airline that had free seating was just as bad as there was always a family come on last demanding seats together and again it was not possible to accommodate their preferences, however their needs were always met by having at least one adult say with the children or across the 18" wide aisle (which people would not be happy with but it exceeded the requirement of having children within one row of their responsible adult.

PAXboy
13th Jun 2014, 18:54
Reminds me of one trip back from South Africa. Sabena (a 743, I think) I was in Club upstairs so four seats across, I was in the 'A' and the other three were empty.

At Kinshasha, a Dutch family boarded and it was clear by their looking at their boarding cards, that Mum + Dad were in the 'C' and 'D' and the (apparently 17/18 year old) daughter was in 'B' next to me. The mum took one look at me and told her daughter to sit next to dad in 'C' and plonked herself next to me. I was deeply offended and took to the bottle.

mixture
13th Jun 2014, 19:05
Am I overreacting in being bothered by this?

Yes, you are.

As far as "the system" is concerned, its done its job. You wanted seats allocated together, it gave you seats allocated together. What you do with those seats is your problem.

Dread to think the sort of panic you must get into when you get one of those four-seater tables allocated on a train and the computer puts your family round the table in a random order. :E

easyflyer83
13th Jun 2014, 21:16
Also bear in mind there are routes at certain times of the year where there are so many children that the computer says 'sod it' I can't deal with this, sort it out yourselves. In other words, there are too many families and children to get everyone sat immediately next to each other.

ExXB
14th Jun 2014, 09:29
I think you guys are being a little hard on the OP. He appeared to be of the view that there was a legal requirement that they take the seats as assigned. In this crazy industry anything is possible!

Try reading an airlines terms and conditions (which everyone SHOULD do) and you will see where he got the idea from.

He now knows that there is no legal requirement and, within his allocation, he can do what he wants. Swapping seats with other passengers is also legal, but a bit more complicated.

Also, with paid seat allocation, you generally can get what you want - if you do it far in enough in advance. If it is a concern you can pay. You will be happy, the cabin crew will be happy and your fellow passengers will be happy.

theothersimon
16th Jun 2014, 15:27
Thank you all, and yes, ExXB, that was the point I was trying to make.

So if the seat reservation system has no idea of passenger ages, does that mean I can select seats that are all over the plane? What fun. :E

It does go some of the way to explaining who so many people were angry that they were booted out of the seats they had booked. I know the terms and conditions say you don't always get the seat you booked, so you have little reason to complain. However it does make the idea of booking seats a little ludicrous if the plane has be reshuffled because the reservation system cannot put minors with one parent.

fa2fi
17th Jun 2014, 01:10
Passengers who have not paid for a specific seat will be moved first. The cabin crew wil have means if identifying who has paid for seats and only in exceptionally rare circumstances will passengers who paid a specific seat be moved.

RevMan2
17th Jun 2014, 07:36
Some airlines (Air NZ is one) require you to return to your assigned seat before landing, which - given that crew instructions have quasi-legal authority - people comply with. Tight Slot could perhaps enlighten us?

mad_jock
17th Jun 2014, 09:46
The captain has ultimate authorify on the flight. Due to most not having any interest in where people sit outside effecting the trim of the aircraft we delegate it to the cabin crew.

If they say to sit in a seat it becomes you're assigned seat.

Wannabe Flyer
3rd Jul 2014, 09:16
I have been feeling very guilty with myself over this issue.

Last week on a flight JFK-DXB-DEL, i took particular care to online check in on time to select all my seats for the long flight. As luck would have it I have it I had a couple and a lap baby in the seat next to me from JFK with the kid being extra cranky for most of the journey including kicking stuff over repeatedly.

On the DXB - DEL sector i had chosen as close to the front of the aircraft in Y class as possible to ensure I did not get stuck in the sub continent baggage trap and get out of the aircraft and immigration as fast as possible.

On reaching my seat it was occupied by a person who said if i could switch seats with him further down about 15 rows middle seat. His wife and 11 year old kid were in window and middle and I was in aisle. He claimed his wife was pregnant and he wanted to sit with her (Probably real early term as not visible). I was particularly irritated and normally would have obliged but after the prior flight politely declined as said I had chosen this seat and did not want a middle or back of the aircraft for a reason.

He was polite enough and got up and subsequently organised multiple moves to ensure his family was seated with him finally.....but i did feel a little guilty later......

Could the air crew have forced me to give up my seat and exchange?.........the splitting the family up issue is hard and would make sense if computer system did talk to each other, but kinda defeats the purpose of online check in and blocking your seat a FF......:\

RevMan2
3rd Jul 2014, 10:54
@mad jock. Yep, got that, but there has to be a valid reason, no?

Heathrow Harry
3rd Jul 2014, 16:23
No - they don't have to give you a reason - they are in charge and you obey

MarcK
3rd Jul 2014, 16:28
It's so that when the airplane crashes and everyone is burnt to a crisp, they can tell who you were by what seat you were sitting in.:ouch:

Heathrow Harry
3rd Jul 2014, 16:59
same as lifebelts - it's to make it easier to pickup the bodies after a crash

mad_jock
3rd Jul 2014, 17:45
100% with Heathrow it doesn't need a valid reason. You do as your told.

If I get involved 95% chance you get off loaded if you give any backchat at all.

It is a legal instruction by the crew, and that crew has been delegated by myself within the instructions of their SOP manuals or they may well have asked and I have authorised it to be within the M&B. If you screw with them I will not tolerate it.

If the CC have screwed up I will tell you now that the poo will start descending from a very high height which may end up they are unemployed afterwards. The place is not to argue about it in the air we have zero tolerance for that. On the ground I would be open to complaints if you asked to speak to me. And I wouldn't be that the CC are always correct I would be open to the fact that you may be in the right.

Some airlines the captain wouldn't have the same clout hire em and fire them. But in all airlines if a valid point is raised it would be reported back through the system. The system is god even if your event didn't result in anything happening maybe they just had a bad day but were normally 100% it would stay on record and if there was a history action taken.

To be honest checkin staff are pretty clueless I have had a couple of them had trips to the office as well due to seating allocation putting geriatric gimps in the emergency exit rows. And then it was me that had to chuck the auld :mad: out with them bitching they had paid for the extra leg room and the checkin staff had said it was OK for them to sit there.

RevMan2
3rd Jul 2014, 19:45
I'll start this off with "Don't forget who's paying your salary". Just to calm everybody down.
Your employer ( and my contractual partner) offers me seat selection as part of the package (transportation of myself and a defined quantity of luggage) I've bought.
If I have a boarding pass (which I've printed myself) for my selected and allocated seat and a flight attendant tells me that, no, I'm not sitting there, I'm sitting elsewhere, it's not unreasonable to expect an explanation.
If your immediate reaction is to threaten to offload me for asking - in you're [sic] terminology, "backchat" - my lawyer will be talking to your CEO in a flash.
Given that I don't frequent crap airlines, it's unlikely that our paths will cross.
But I've rarely read so much tosh, arrogance and ignorant ranting....

INeedTheFull90
3rd Jul 2014, 20:32
Mad_jock: your attitude is deplorable. I do not think it unreasonable to explain to a passenger who is paying your wages why they are being moved. You seem the type who attracts trouble and your attitude is to blame and you need to get over yourself. I was crew for years, never once did I need the flight deck to sort out issues for me and that's working on very small planes too.

S.o.S.
3rd Jul 2014, 22:50
mad_jock now has time to decide if he wants to contribute further to this forum, that is the whole of PPRuNe, not just SLF.




Back to the thread:
Given that carriers are going to continue:


selling different seats at different prices
asking pax to do more work of seat selection and log in
packing as many flights into each shift (ground crew, just as much as flight/cabin)
reducing turnaround times

The opportunities for mistakes and upsets to seat allocation is only going to increase.

INeedTheFull90
3rd Jul 2014, 22:55
I agree. Seating families together is quicker and makes people happier. Most airlines will try its best to seat families together. I do not support the conspiracy theorists who claim airlines deliberately split people up to make money. Splitting families up means time wasted rearranging the cabin which eats in to FDP and OTP if a delay occurs.

DocMartin
9th Jul 2014, 22:18
My advice would be to trust your fellow passengers to handle it, and to help you out. Most people are pretty awesome, and can be highly self-directed / helpful if given the opportunity.

I fly almost weekly with my Daughter (7) and we are often seated miles apart. 90% of the time, as soon as I direct the kid into her seat and tell her to "be good, mommy is just 25 rows away" her seatmates are falling all over themselves to offer me a seat and trade places. I try to thank them profusely, give them a hug, and buy them a drink for their kindness. long haul, short haul, 16 hour flights to NZ / the Middle East, people are always wonderful about swapping seats.

On the rare occasion when they don't offer to swap seats, I'll tell them where I'm located, offer to swap if she becomes a problem, hand the kid a stack of books, and enjoy a few hours of child-free bliss. Often her seatmates are empty nesters or travelling dads / moms who seem to relish the opportunity to do the grandparent / parent thing for a couple of hours.

In two + years of weekly flights, we've yet to have a negative experience with pax and we've never once had to ask the crew to intervene on our behalf.

SouthendMike
11th Jul 2014, 12:02
Some years ago, my wife and were holidaying in the Dominican Republic, flying with Thomsons. I had requested, and paid for, "Seats together" as my wife is a VERY nervous flyer. We didn't actually get our seats allocated until check in, so I was surprised to see we were "across the aisle", which wasn't too bad I suppose.

On the return leg, I was shocked to see that we were allocated seats that were behind each other. I asked a member of Cabin Crew if that was correct and was told to refer to the Terms and Conditions on the Website when we returned home.

I wrote and complained to Thomsons on our return home and was told the same, which is:

" Seats together may be across an aisle or behind each other. A similar position means the same type of seat (window, aisle etc) as your original selected seats."

Can Forum members tell me if that is universal across all airlines?

mixture
11th Jul 2014, 16:54
Can Forum members tell me if that is universal across all airlines?

All airlines reserve the right to change your seats as they see fit due to "operational reasons", and no airline will guarantee you seats.

Maybe next time get a note added to your PNR about your wife that the check-in agent can read and perhaps apply more discretion.

Hartington
11th Jul 2014, 22:10
I just flew London/New York on BA. I had paid for a seat reservation. I cheked in online and printed my boarding pass. When I dropped my bag I was given a new boarding pass with a new seat number. OK, it happens. What irked me was that I had paid for a window seat and my new seat was an inside aisle. The check in agent changed it but it can't be impossible to look at the previous allocation and try and pick the same kind of seat even with an automated system. Oh well, like I said, things happen!

Piltdown Man
15th Jul 2014, 13:37
SoS - I do not think you are being very fair with Mad_Jock. Most airlines employ pretty competent cabin crew whose job it is to deal with passengers. They have more empathy than us, they have the on-board systems (well ours do) to tell them who paid for what, where people should be sat and a list of free (unallocated) seats. They'll also have a reasonable idea as to what is possible and normally try to use information, tact, reasonableness and charm as their tools to deal with difficult situations. We spend a great deal of money on staff training to develop these skills. But when these have failed and we get a "I demand to speak to the Captain" in the cabin I can almost predict that the outcome will not be as the person demanding my attention expects.

Yes, I will listen to what is being said by the passenger and I will listen to my colleagues in the cabin and hear what has been attempted to find a resolution. But generally, if the likes of Easyflyer83 can't sort a problem out, it's most unlikely I'll be able to do anything. Also, we have to be careful about appearing to undermine the authority our colleagues - if we are to have an uneventful flight. Lastly, I have normally found that a disgruntled passenger (a person who pays my wages) often has a reasonable case but they are generally not prepared to accept any compromises whatsoever. If they were, I wouldn't be having a discussion with them. We also don't have adequate "tools" to fix the problem before departure. Which leaves us with only one solution if we are to depart. Fortunately, I've only had to "deal" with half a dozen or so these incidents over the past 13 years (3-4,000 flights or so).

And while we are here, Mixture has added an interesting point - the "operational reasons" possibility. This generally means a different type of aircraft may be substituted at short notice. In my case we have learned to look out for those who have paid for seat upgrades, but the back-office systems have historically been out of sync with reality. Its getting better, but it can still be a challenge.


And if there are any cabin crew here, would they please tell me if a parent HAS to sit with my sons (Ages 14 & 16 - TCX flying NCL/ACE). We are happy not to sit with them and they would probably prefer to be by themselves. But one parent will be with my daughter (age 9) which means we only have to have two pairs of seats allocated plus a single. But having said that, I'm too tight to pay to select my own seat so I'll delegate the seating issue to TCX. I'm just wondering what they should/will do.

mad_jock
15th Jul 2014, 15:33
Unfortunately Pit S.O.S is not crew and seems not to have a clue about the legal responsibility's of a crew.

Or for that matter that Captains are not employed to be nice cuddly huggie feely types.

The legislation is set in law in most countries its defined in the air navigation order which is an act of parliament so as such breaches of it are in the high court domain and carry a sentence up to 7 years in prison in the UK.

This act apply's equally to the crew as it does to the pax, ie if we are deficient in our application of the act we get the same scale of punishment that the pax do.

The buck stops at the Captain inside an aircraft, it doesn't matter what marketing and commercial have dreamed up they have to keep the flight legal.

On the subject of informing pax, its not as easy as it seems, the company legal types don't want you to get into a discussion if you are using your rights given under the act of parliament. All that leads to is potential for a long drawn out court case arguing the toss. So its " I am giving you a legal instruction so if you don't comply your getting off". Even if you want to expand they instruct you not to.

It doesn't happen very often but when it does it isn't pleasant for the crew and there is heaps of paper work.

And Pit they don't, basically once the kids is un-min grade they can be seated where ever. Most CC will move others to get it through for an age 9 female.

The operational crew are not the ones to complain to though.
It needs to go directly to customer services complaints. We (crew) can report issues as many times as we like but until there is an overwhelming issues coming into commercial from all sides they will ignore it. We saw how long it took for a certain loco to change to allocated seating.

The selling of emergency exit leg room though is particularly annoying to me, it is by far (90%) the cause of most conflicts to do with seat allocation. It is also the one most fraught with legal discussions as it is a matter of opinion if the person at the door can operate it. Having to lumber the thing out 30-40 times a year doing pilot safety equipment training I know for a fact that if a frail auld un lifts the handle they will just end up on the floor with a 25kg door on top of them. But they are the ones who are most likely to pay the extra cash for the leg room. The suggestion to remove a row to have completely free from legislation extra leg room is always refused for economic reasons.

The only way to stop the practise would be a legislation change to ban the practise of pre allocating emergency exit rows. But as there prime efforts at the moment in EASA seem to be pushing through legislation to force airlines to allow two pieces of hand baggage completely ignoring the safety aspects of where to put the baggage in the cabin I will not hold my breath.

Anyway I will leave this forum in peace now due to S.O.S, not many operational crew can be bother with this forum and it can continue without my input so that's one less person that has a clue giving input to the SLF.

Pax don't pay my wages, the company does, the company also has a clauses in my contract that I have to do certain things which I do. The loosing of certain awkward customers to other carriers isn't really an issue as 99.99% of pax get on and get off again without a problem. To be honest by the time you take into account the time and effort spent dealing with the complaints from the 0.01%, there is no profit in transporting them anyway.

No doudt I will have another week away only being able to read pprune due to me being a Captain and speaking like one and not some huggy puffy HR type.

west lakes
15th Jul 2014, 15:45
Worth a read

Top 5 Reasons Why 'The Customer Is Always Right' Is Wrong*|*Alexander Kjerulf (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-kjerulf/top-5-reasons-customer-service_b_5145636.html)

I'll start this off with "Don't forget who's paying your salary"Ah that chestnut, as stated the company pays the salary of it's employees.
The customer contributes towards that salary as with the salaries of everyone else involved with the operation, the cost of fuel, the cost of the aircraft, the charges imposed by ATC and airports, government imposed taxes, the income tax & NI of the employees, corporation tax, need I go on.
But as customers we agree to abide by the T&Cs and have to abide by the law. we have no option to change those if things don't go our way.

From cabin crew I know, the I pay your salary brigade often suddenly find that they are no longer welcome aboard any aircraft of that carrier where they try it on!

mad_jock
15th Jul 2014, 16:15
Most don't understand how much the things that are taken as normal rights are null and void after stepping through the first line of security at an airport until they step out the door at the end of travel.

I must have gone through the argument on the discrimination act 5-6 times over the last 12 years about disabled access rights on aircraft. It always gets trumped by the ANO.

CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226)

Here it is for those that want to wade through it.

And there is a small legion of people out there that have half a clue about aircraft operations who will be more than happy to report any breaches to the authorities. You never know who is in the back.

I had a post flight discussion with a pax about wx in the terminal while he waited for a taxi and I had a cup of coffee and some leading questions about the navigational aids at the airport and the effect of down grading the ILS to a lower standard of approach aid would have. And the fact he wouldn't have been there if we hadn't had it as we had just landed in 600m and got the lights at 200ft bang on mins.

Turned out he was the minister of transport for the country in question and the ILS remained.

west lakes
15th Jul 2014, 16:54
You never know who is in the back.

There are airlines out there that use mystery passengers whose sole aim is to ensure that cabin crew follow company procedures, not self imposed rules that passengers dream up for their own benefit.
I know of one ex purser that used to have a printed copy of the Conditions of Carriage to hand and would never hesitate to point out to difficult passengers just what they had agreed to when they bought a ticket

S.o.S.
15th Jul 2014, 16:59
For the record:
No, I am not crew.
Yes, I am very well aware that the 'buck' stops with the Captain.
I have been a pax from a very young age and remember the 'old days' and am not very happy about many aspects of the 'new days'.
The rules of PPRuNe state that you may not be rude to others in the forum, or make defamatory remarks about anyone - in or out of the forums.

mad_jock Your posts today are great. They are helpful and informative - no reason to ban anyone. They are the kind of posts that the owners and administrators of PPRuNe seek the most.

I certainly agree 100% about selling exit row seats. It is deplorable and, if I was in the CAA, would never have allowed it. Unfortunately, until people die nothing will change. Hopefully, it will just be the 'frail auld un' in hospital from the 25kg door and that might start CEOs and board members thinking.

Further, I also wish that more carriers would prevent the drunks from boarding and offload the awkward ones - but I do know something about the commercial world.


Lastly, if it matters, it was another Mod who banned you before I saw your post. It just fell to me to deliver the news to the nation. In doing so, I chose wording previously used by TightSlot.

mad_jock
15th Jul 2014, 17:04
I have off loaded a mystery pax off before, which is what they intended as it was an exercise/audit for the ground handling agents.

The pax apparently should have never made it to the aircraft.

No harm done but they were told if they were doing it again the exercise should stop as soon as they passed the door of the aircraft.

Nothing was said about my forthright handling of the offload on-board.

mad_jock
15th Jul 2014, 17:21
Well its your forums loss.

There was nothing personal in that post and I can't remember what was under the now :mad:

But it was more than likely auld f a r t.

And to be honest this forum needs a moderator with a clue on the operations aspects of what we do.

If you want professional input your going to have to expect a forthright none mixing of words on certain subjects. The control of pax and the responsibility's of the crew is one of those subjects that there is no discussion about. Mincing words on the subject just gives forth the view that anyone actually cares what the PAX point of view is or for that matter has any way of changing the current situation.

Captains are not employed to be polite individuals we are employed to get people from A to B safely in an economic manner and to manage and deal with everything that's thrown at us.

If a pax gets us out the flight deck they can expect a robust response which may or may not be politically correct. By getting us they have bypassed the people that have been trained to deal with that sort of thing. All you will get is bad cop after that, one who is empowered by law that you must obey their instructions.

easyflyer83
15th Jul 2014, 18:04
Sorry guys but mad_jock has a point there.

Certainly as cabin crew it can be difficult when we do have to enforce something. When it comes to seating it has to be an exceptional case before crew have to make the decision that seating needs to be changed. Certainly in 9 years I've never had to do that. Generally you can appeal to people's better nature. If you have to enforce it then there is I usually a good reason and that reason should be fully explained to those effected. However, that decision will have been made and if it's for a justifiable reason it is not up for negotiation. That is where the problem lies. Passengers often don't see or appreciate the 'official' role of cabin crew and so if things have gone wrong and the crew has to ask/tell them to do something then they regard it as bad customer service on the part of the crew member....even if the airline is to blame.

I'm glad that the rule on electronics had changed as you could get some nasty retorts for simply and politely asking people to switch their device off. A lot of passengers often don't like it when crew have to ask them to do things in order to adhere to SOP's. Why? Because they only see and appreciate the customer service side of things.

Of course, there will be rare occasions that Hitler like crew will be on board your flight but there are also rare occasions where passengers will be difficult, will argue the toss and those are the times where you have to remain polite but also be robust. That is the point I think mad_jock is trying to make.

mixture
15th Jul 2014, 18:42
Its not often I come out in support of mad_jock, but he's hit the nail on the head with his point of view....

The cabin crew are trained to be all nice and sweet to the SLF and will happily be at your disposal for the duration of the flight. They are also duly empowered by the captain to strongly encourage (since they don't have the ultimate authority) passengers to abide by certain rules/restrictions whilst on board items on his/her behalf.

If you drag the captain out of his/her seat to deal with some childish tantrum over some petty little problem then you deserve what you get.

If you see flames coming out the engine or the wings falling off and there's not much sign of any action being taken, then by all means stamp and shout at the cabin crew to say the captain may wish to come take a look. But other than that, let the captain do his/her job, let the cabin crew do theirs, and you do yours (sit down,belt up, and ideally shut up ;) ).

SLF3
16th Jul 2014, 14:35
Over many years, and on balance, I think I have witnessed (as opposed to heard of) as much bad behaviour from cabin crew as passengers.

Where I have seen argumentative passengers and it escalated the attitude of the cabin crew was a major factor.

Interestingly, have only seen it get silly on British and American airlines - Asian and Gulf airlines have always managed to calm things down without giving anything away.

So maybe, just maybe, the attitude of people like Mad Jock is part of the problem. Not all passengers are sinners - but not all cabin crew are saints.

mixture
16th Jul 2014, 15:23
Not all passengers are sinners - but not all cabin crew are saints.

Yes but is a packed aircraft on a tight schedule the right place to argue your point ?

No. So either disembark or just shut up and do as you're told and write an angry letter to Customer Services after the event if you feel hard done by.

The reality is that all you're doing by giving the crew a piece of your mind is pissing them off. The added benefit of following the established complaints procedure is that your complaint gets looked at by a second pair of eyes and possibly even gets resolved for the long term (i.e. words with / retraining of / disciplining of crew involved)....by trying to DIY with the cabin crew all you're going to get is an ultra short-term resolution that will only last as long as the duration of the flight... nobody in HR or anywhere else will hear about it.

mad_jock
16th Jul 2014, 17:07
A lot of it is area/cultural of the pax you have onboard.

Same with the crew as well. The CC from further north of the UK are less prone to letting theatrics start.

Same with age as well, the more mature CC have more life experience and stop discussions occurring.

It is a fact that some see it as an infringement of their human rights be told what to do, and will argue black is white and vice versa.

To be honest I don't miss at all uplifting pax in the SE its been 2 years since I have. And in those 2 years I have had only one pax required to be off loaded. I will give you 2 guesses on his nationality and where he came from.


If you think its acceptable refusing a lawful instruction from flight crew do us all a favour get the Eurostar or a bus and let the rest travel in peace without subjecting them to a tantrum.

SLF3
16th Jul 2014, 18:18
I think you are making my point for me. This is not a very measured or balanced conversation, is it?

mad_jock
16th Jul 2014, 18:51
Nope and nor will it ever be when a member of crew gives you an instruction on board an aircraft.

Nor will it be if a member of the security mafia give you an instruction

And also customs and excise/ immigration control.

All of those examples are covered by acts of parliament.

If you don't like find another means of transport. Because if you think you know better you will end up with a criminal record end of story.

west lakes
16th Jul 2014, 18:55
Really?
The scene, passengers boarding an aircraft
On found not to be adhering to hand baggage rules one passenger stopped from boarding until rules are complied with.
Passenger immediately plays the "Get out of Jail" card and accuses staff of being racist! Discussion continues until the baggage issue resolved and passenger boards aircraft.

Passenger takes seat and immediately begins cursing and swearing at staff and about them requiring that rules (the T&Cs) be complied with, when any CC try to calm the passenger down out comes the racist card again.

Captain hears all this and intervenes, is immediately called a racist and passenger refuses to calm down or stop swearing

Passenger is off-loaded.

Takes it to the equalities agency, case thrown out!

So, should the crew have immediately allowed the T&Cs to be ignored and make a special case or were they all right to insist on following them?

west lakes
16th Jul 2014, 19:10
So you've paid for reserved seating and ticked that little box that you agree with the T&Cs

Lets look at some

Seating changes and refunds | Choosing your seat | British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/seating/seating-changes-and-refunds)

Terms and Conditions

Paid seating



All paid seating is subject to availability at time of request. Paid seating is available on all British Airways mainline operated flights and on BA operated flights marketed by other carriers.



Children travelling alone (Skyflyers Solo) are not eligible to choose seats in advance.



All unticketed passengers, e.g. those travelling on a cruise or packaged holiday who have not yet received confirmation of their ticket numbers from their Agent, are not eligible to choose seats in advance. Paid seating is not available on flights operated by any BA franchisee, or some flights operated by codeshare partners.



Paid seating is available in Euro Traveller, World Traveller, World Traveller Plus, Club World, Club Europe and Domestic cabins. Exit row seat requests are only available in our World Traveller and World Traveller Plus cabins (Exit Row seats available through online check in are for World Traveller customers only).



Paid seating is available on some seats in Club World upper deck.



Paid seating may be available for twin seats on Boeing 747, Boeing 777 and Airbus A380 aircraft types.



Requests specifically for seats on the exit rows can only be processed from 14 to 4 days before your flight or through Online Check-in (https://www.britishairways.com/travel/managebooking/public/en_gb?eId=104001).



Bookings containing more than 9 passengers, or which contain more than 16 flights or sectors are not eligible for paid seating.



Paid seating must be purchased for all passengers in a booking, except when purchasing an exit row seat through Online Check-in (https://www.britishairways.com/travel/managebooking/public/en_gb?eId=104001).



Changes to seats



On BA marketed and operated flights, you may change your seat at any time, and pay the difference in price where applicable, with the exception of existing Paid Seating customers who will be unable to upgrade to an Exit Row seat during Online Check In. If you change your seat to one of a lower price, we will not refund the difference. On other carrier marketed flights, changes to your paid seating may not be made.



A paid seat request cannot be guaranteed, as it may need to be changed for operational, safety or security reasons, even after boarding the aircraft.



In the event that we have to change your seat we will endeavour to seat you in a suitable alternative. We will look to seat your party together in the first instance, and then if possible in your choice of window seat, middle seat or aisle seat. If you have paid for an exit row seat we will look to seat you in another exit row seat. If you are not completely satisfied with your replacement seat you are eligible to apply for a refund. Seats are not transferable to any other passengers.



Exit row seats



Exit row seats are situated either next to or immediately behind the exit door.



In the unlikely event of an evacuation you will be expected to assist in the opening of the emergency door. For this reason you must be an able bodied person (12 years and over) in full fitness and able to understand printed or verbal instructions given in English. You must be willing, as well as able, to assist in the case of an emergency evacuation. When requesting an exit row seat you will be asked to verify your eligibility.



British Airways has the sole discretion to determine whether a passenger meets the requirements to sit in an exit row seat. If the passenger does not meet the requirements, they will be assigned an alternative seat. The additional amount paid for an exit row seat will be forfeited and will not be refunded.



If after the date of requesting an exit row seat you become unable to fulfil the requirements to sit in an exit row seat then you should contact British Airways. If you purchased your seat from 14 to 4 day before departure, you will be eligible to apply for a refund if you contact us at least 48 hours before your flight.



Exit rows purchased through Online Check In will not be refunded if you are unable to fulfil the requirements to sit in an exit row.



If any passenger in the booking is not eligible to sit in an exit row, exit row seats will not be offered for the entire booking.


Refunds



Paid seating will not be refunded if you cancel your flight, are involuntarily upgraded or are not suitable to sit in the seat type you have selected.



In relation to BA marketed and operated flights, if, in accordance with your fare rules, you choose to move to a different flight, you will be entitled to choose an equivalent seat on your new flight. However if an equivalent seat is not available the difference paid will be forfeited and will not be refunded. In relation to other carrier marketed flights, if you choose to move to a different flight, you will not be entitled to choose an equivalent seat on the new flight and you will not be entitled to a refund.



You have 14 days after the last flight in your itinerary to apply for a refund.



Refund applications should be submitted online using the Seating refund form (https://www.britishairways.com/travel/webforms/public/en_gb?eId=120001&wfpId=seating_claim_form).



Refund applications cannot be processed at the airport or onboard.



Unless otherwise stated, BA will only make a refund to the credit card used to pay for the pre-assigned seating.



So there does not seem a lot of room for discussion on-board the aircraft so why waste everyone's time

SLF3
16th Jul 2014, 19:19
Getting steadily worse....

To fly, to serve. Fly the friendly skies. Your gonna like us. We love to fly and it shows. US Air begins with 'U'.

Of course, not all these are still with us.

west lakes
16th Jul 2014, 19:30
Getting steadily worse....

That passengers have little room to manoeuvre within the T&Cs they have agreed to - yes.

(BTW I am not employed within aviation, just a passenger that seeks to follow the T&Cs)

TightSlot
17th Jul 2014, 06:30
(BTW I am not employed within aviation, just a passenger that seeks to follow the T&Cs)
You really shouldn't feel that you have to justify or qualify your status when posting in this forum - on this thread, or any other.

Despite what some appear to believe, there is no particular gravitas or authority that derives from being 'In' the industry. One lesson learned during my years flying and observing people 'in' and 'out' of the industry was that the more dogmatic an individual approach, the more sceptical I should be as to the value of those assertions.

RevMan2
17th Jul 2014, 08:30
A paid seat request cannot be guaranteed, as it may need to be changed for operational, safety or security reasons, even after boarding the aircraft

As far as I can determine, this thread got heated when mad_jock (nomen est omen) started equating asking a question of the cabin crew with "backchat", the latter being a valid reason in his parallel universe for his having a passenger disembarked.

It's now evolved into threatening to gift customers a criminal record for "backchat....

Again.

If cabin crew give a legal instruction, there's no reason not to comply.
If it's a "you'll do that just because I say so", there will be a request for explanation.

And if you assign me a seat other than the one I've paid for, I'm certainly entitled to ask politely which "operational, safety or security reasons" necessitated the change.

In the hope that the captain - if he or she deems it necessary to get involved - acts like the senior management that they are and not like a jobsworth municipal parking attendant....

easyflyer83
17th Jul 2014, 08:49
We're all getting our knickers crossed a little here. The Captain will very rarely get involved. It's not their domain, most will simply expect the cabin crew to deal with it..... And the majority of cabin crew will have no problem with dealing with it. If it became particularly abusive or violent and this was whilst on stand then the Captain, or indeed FO, would likely get involved.... But only for the protection of his/her crew. That scenario is still pretty rare though and it is important to add that no flight crew will get involved in disputes, violent or other whilst the aircraft is in the air. At most carriers this is simply not allowed.

mad_jock
17th Jul 2014, 09:47
The reason why they are getting their knickers in a twist is because they object to anyone telling them what to do.

The fact they have no choice in the matter and it may lead to a criminal record if they refuse is just plain infuriating.

And it should never be "because I am telling you to" although I will admit you more than likely you all have examples of that happening.

If you do see poor handling of pax on a UK flight please report it to.

CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/)

And they will investigate. And its a top level enquiry which goes in a post holder level ie the person that is responsible to the authority's.

Swear even once at any of the crew or act in an aggressive manner and your off end of story, if it happens in the air you will be met by the police.

PAXboy
17th Jul 2014, 12:12
One of the major problems is of the airline business' own making. Here I speak collectively of all carriers. Most regular flyers know about the law and needing to obey it but 99% of Pax do not.

"Your safety is our first concern blah blah" but they NEVER say that you have to do as you are told. If pax knew why - it would be better. But, across the last 40 years of mass travel, most pax have been told THEY are the most important person.

When this is coupled with the modern sense of 'I can do anything - no one can tell me anything' then conflict is only one sentence away. The carriers need to start letting the pax know the full story and WHY. It's no good putting it in the Ts&Cs but most carriers will shy away from it as telling the pax how beautiful and perfect they are - will always appeal to the Board and CEO.

fa2fi
17th Jul 2014, 12:54
They do on the US carriers, something along the lines of "federal law requires compliance with all lighted signs, placards and crew member instructions".

mad_jock
17th Jul 2014, 13:12
I most certainly don't disagree with that PAXboy.

The people that are most in the know I have found are oil workers.

They get a full briefing by the company about being on duty when being transported to their place of work. And the apply strict rules about their conduct. Failure to comply is instant dismissal.

I have seen one airline implement a zero tolerance policy, the first month it resulted with quite a few off loads and police involvement. Then word got about and it was much better for everyone concerned pax included.

After that pax numbers started increasing. The vast majority of pax appreciate a safe secure environment. So even though they had to pay more they avoided the cheaper alternative who had all the plonkers onboard.

Which is why a firm response pays dividends. People don't want to sit in planes full of drunks being loud and the vast majority are definitely on the side of crew when they are asked to move seat for an obvious reason like getting a child with a parent and they start getting stroppy or required to move from the exit row.

The UK does have a problem with Air rage. It is cultural. From what I can tell its to do with this "respect" concept linked to the perceived social status of the person in relation to the CC.

It would be interesting though if someone pulled the statistics both of the pax and the CC involved with the incidents.

For me if you have a Geordie or Leeds CC on-board you can have the hardest and ruffest bunch of pax on board you like. Never any problems. Why? mainly because they have a don't mess with me aura from the moment the pax come on board the aircraft. You can't train that, they just have it.

mixture
17th Jul 2014, 13:28
The people that are most in the know I have found are oil workers.

Slightly off-topic but....

I've heard that even when meandering around the relatively safe vast expanses of their employer's headquarters back on dry land, oil employees are mandated to keep to one side of the staircase going up and one side going down, and one hand on the handrail at all times ?

Perhaps his madness would care to confirm ?

west lakes
17th Jul 2014, 13:35
From what I can tell its to do with this "respect" concept

And some sort of false sense of entitlement.

In the company I work for we occasionally have to, for safety reasons, make decisions that are inconvenient for our customers, we know this and try hard to avoid having to take these steps.

However when we do it is usual for us to give advance warning to some, more often in these days we get the reply "You can't do that!"
Not in the sense of "it will cause me problems" but in the sense of "I will not allow you, or you are not allowed"
Well sorry but we are, in fact legally we do not even have to give notice in certain circumstances.

SLF3
17th Jul 2014, 14:13
It is true in many oil companies. Part of a confusion between slips trips and falls (which are easy to measure) and process safety (which is very hard to measure). Ask BP.

So in a nutshell, I ask a simple question in a reasonable manner, and you wave the ANO and threaten the police and a criminal record. I am glad most of the air crew I meet don't live in that world. But it is depressing the number that seem to.

easyflyer83
17th Jul 2014, 14:22
I work with an an ex eastern crew member who absolutely hated the oil/gas flights for the pure grief they would get.

mad_jock
17th Jul 2014, 17:03
mixture its a health and safety thing dictated by some safety officers.

The lifting of things can also get a bit silly. Ie you need a safety hazard assessment to pick up a fire extinguisher.

It basically covers the company against being sued for certain industrial injury's.

I ask a simple question in a reasonable manner

Depends when you ask it, I suggest you don't do it while they are shutting the doors and trying to get off stand. But leave it to later, maybe when they have finished the service. It also makes a difference if your moving while you ask it ie complying or your sat cross armed making no effort to move.

They won't do it unless there is a reason. But if they have told you to move its not optional and asking a question isn't going to change the fact your going to have to move.

And it will get more and more of it driven by the legal types as air rage is on the increase and the softly softy isn't working. There are folk now trying it on suing for emotional stress just watching when something kicks off from 5-6 rows away.

I ask a simple question in a reasonable manner, and you wave the ANO and threaten the police and a criminal record.

Oh how dramatic, and very unrealistic.

Before the captain appears on the scene there needs to be an escalation but when they do appear it will be short and sweet. So I would be very surprised if asking one question would result in that initial answer. By the time the captain turns up its about 95% certain your off, if you refuse then its your choice if you want to discuss it with the police. The police will not listen to anything you say they will remove you.

It also depends on if the person your asking thinks its reasonable, asking the question isn't going to change what's going to happen so why bother asking it?

radeng
22nd Jul 2014, 07:22
A couple of times in my career have I had a Business Class seat in BA and been issued at the gate with a new seat in economy. The first time the CC sorted it out: the second time (at Nice) I was bumped on to a following flight. Apparently some African VIP diplomat with family appeared, who had an onward connection from LHR and whose connecting flight into Nice was late. Needless to say, I wasn't happy, but it was before the current regulations appeared so I didn't get a lot of compensation from BA. They did provide free telephone calls......As I had ordered a special meal, there was a problem....These days, it would have cost them more than the ticket!


I was flying back once with American when the CC moved the woman with 4 kids from the back row to the row I was in so there was somewhere extra to put trays of glasses. When I asked her if it was new SOP to put young children next to men unrelated to them, I got a dirty look and the family moved back......

But these were all cases where CC did what they could, albeit, in the case of AA, unwillingly. Which generally seems to be the case these days with AA cabin crew. Hardly surprising when one considers the way they have been messed about in terms of employment T & Cs while the big boys at the top get large bonuses.

mad_jock
22nd Jul 2014, 08:17
Must admit I won't fly with any of the American carriers even if it costs more.

I try and stick with Lufty, KLM or Finair for long haul.

Finair for fareast is by far the best option. Cheap if you book in advance through themselves.

All of them have never seen any problems, maybe because the majority of pax aren't UK or Yanks.