Heathrow Slots

[greenarrow]

A large North of England operator (Fixed wing and Rotary) recently recieved a Ban for a Slot Violation at Heathrow. This ban was intended to ban all aircraft operated by this company.
The pilot arrived at Heathrow on time and thanks to passengers being off loaded quickly and Air Traffic being flexible to allow a turn around in good time he asked for departure clearance from Delivery(clear to go) got taxi instructions from Ground and departed with a clearance from Tower. Only to find out because he departed early he had a Slot Violation placed on him. This was consequently argued by phone and letter. Pilots beware!!.
What planet are they on at Heathrow!
They park you in the Cargo area without the protection of a marshaller when rotors running and cargo vehicles charging around, they taxi (Flying) you behind 747's then get you to taxi against the flow when you return to the H for departure.
Reports are that they will now only accept 1 helicopter movement per hour!.

[Daifly]

Slots and LHR? Don't get me started! The key to not getting a banning letter? Don't argue with them. Plead complete innocence and apologise profusely and you'll usually be OK.

I can't help thinking that there might be more to your story than you're letting on or have heard. They don't ban companies willynilly, and generally warn operators before it gets serious.

We operate business jets into and out of there all the time and are constantly constrained by the slot system (we were one of the companies that took the slot people to the European Court in 1999), but accept it as a necessary evil. If you constantly abuse it then you should get banned, but I really doubt that you'd get a ban for one 'mistake' - especially as you're a chopper and operating around the landing fixed wing traffic.

We all know that the world won't collapse if helis don't operate to slot, but then if the computer forecasting says it will, you can't really argue it with the person who decided on the limits.

I suspect they shouted at the Co-ordination Manager myself.....

[Helinut]

I believe this is not the first or only such ban for a helicopter operator. Another helicopter operator (that I know but do not work for) had a flight booked from Luton, after picking up pax from a fixed wing. The fixed wing was late arriving at Luton, so surprise surprise the helicopter was late arriving at Heathrow. The company was banned from LHR for 6 months! No amount of explanation made any difference.

Incidentally, this was not a runway "slot" but a SVFR daytime arrival onto the heli aiming point. [I suspect that the flight greenarrow mentions was similar.] I am not quite sure about the exact number or frequency, but certainly I believe BAA have a severe limit on the number of SVFR helicopter movements at LHR.

I think we are barely tolerated really.

[Crabette]

Sad but true, there was a time when ATC were there to carry out a pilots 'request' (demand really). But those days have long gone. Now, one has to bend to the whim of a jumped up, power crazed not too sharp eyed (given current ATC reports of the new system) bolshie controller, who has no idea of the hassle placed before the aviators of today. OK, not all of them are in the same boat and they do a great job. But please, all you pen pushing rubber desk jonnies out there.....let us get on with the job at hand.............namely flying! Without us you don’t even have a job!.

[Crabette]

Sad but true, there was a time when ATC were there to carry out a pilots 'request' (demand really). But those days have long gone. Now, one has to bend to the whim of a jumped up, power crazed not too sharp eyed (give current ATC reports of the new system) bolshie controller, who has no idea of the hassle placed before the aviators of today. OK, not all of them are in the same boat and they do a great job. But please, all you pen pushing rubber desk jonnies out there.....let us get on with the job at hand.............namely flying! Without us you don’t even have a job!.

[Heliport]

I've posted a link to this discussion on the ATC site.
It would be interesting to hear the other side of the argument - if there is one.

Heliport
Rotorheads Moderator

[Skycop]

I cannot understand this silly attitude!

Slot times are provided to expedite the flow of air traffic. If this can be improved upon by controllers and pilots being flexible, so much the better for all.

This vindictive attitude merely drives customers to use a different airport. Helicopters are not used by the masses, only the ones with more money and clout. If these people take their business elsewhere (many of them DO have a choice where they fly from), the airport shoot themselves and their operators in the foot.

BTW, what the HELL are EGLL doing with the "H" in the middle of the southern taxiways anyhow? This is not a safe way to operate, especially with regard to Cat A ops and the requirement for clear area departures.

It's time this airport and a couple of others got their act together with regard to facilities for helicopter operations. :rolleyes:

[U R NumberOne]

Did the ban come from ATC (NATS) or the BAA? I can't comment on Heathrow procedures, but I find it difficult to believe ATC would ban (or have the power to ban) an aircraft which doesn't even use the main runway!


Crabette.

Sorry you have a somewhat distorted view of ATC. I can only apologise for the unhelpful minority, but myself and most of my collegues constantly go the extra mile day after day to accomodate pilot requests. Flow restrictions are one example where the matter is often one between the crew and handling agent, but we frequently become involved - just 'cos we're being helpful.

Things aren't getting easier for us to keep in touch with the flying side - losing official Fam Flights etc, but I for one spend several extra hours a month trying to make the service we provide better, safer and more efficient.

If you're in the North East corner of Scotch Land, I'm more than happy to arrange a tour of our place, just send me an e-mail - it might even change put your warped view of what we do! ;)

[left outer, right inner]

Crabette.

What a distorted view of Controllers you have! If u did not have controllers 'getting in the way' of your flying, would you REALLY wanna land behind a heavy, or get jet blasted whilst something starts behind you and you were not told? I doubt it!!!!!! hmmmm

This sounds like two issues here. It sounds like the operator has been banned by BAA and not ATC. ATC's job,. is simply to provide safe and expeditious movement of traffic. There are also two types of slots at LHR.

1. ATC brussels slot, that comes about if there is overload on a particular sector, or bad weather at dep/arr airport etc etc

2. A BAA slot, which is permission for the aircraft to land at BAA's airport in the first place. These are tight, and if you miss the slot, maybe what has been described here is what happens as a result.

ATC has no power to ban as such, we just separate bits of metal!!!!!

Cya all

LORI:p

[Dan Dare]

Little Crab, wash your mouth out with soap and water!!!

I think you will find that the ATCOs everywhere will do everything in their (sometimes limited) power to move as much traffic as possible within the bounds of safety. I don't believe that it matters whether you are a B747, a light single or a helicopter, we try our best to fit you in. If we wanted to push pens then we would all probably be doing propper jobs with propper pay. As it happens, most of us enjoy getting on with the job.....making your flying quicker and safer!

p.s. we are all constrained by the jobsworths, bean counters and other killjoys who make the rule book so big that it no longer has any meaning and seem to put rules ahead of safety and common sense. I apologise for them and always do my upmost to delay their progress.

p.p.s. How do you rotorheads propose we can improve heli operations at busy international airports? Would you like to operate autonomously into a remote piece of concrete on the airport or would you prefer the delays (to everybody) of having vortex separations to apply with runway operations? Can we make more use of your flexibility (having just come from a clearing in someone's back garden etc)? What are YOU doing about it?

[Helinut]

As the one who related the second story of a LHR ban, I can confirm that the "problem" lies with BAA and not ATCOs, as far as I can see. Slots and slot times are fairly obviously a necessary evil at very busy IFR airfields for runways. However, for day SVFR LHR helicopter movements an entirely separate aiming point is used that is well away from the runways. It is hard to see how helicopters using this can cause any problems with the runway operations.

I recently attended a helicopter industry meeting with NATS ATCers about operations in the LHR CTR area. I was really impressed with their cooperative attitude and their attempts to find a solution to problems raised. Bearing in mind that we are a side-issue as far as ATC is concerned at LHR, I believe they help us whenever they can.

[120.4]

Crabette:

How to make friends and influence people. It is not often that I feel the need to express my irritation on these forums but frankly you have got right under my skin.

"Now, one has to bend to the whim of a jumped up, power crazed not too sharp eyed (give current ATC reports of the new system) bolshie controller, who has no idea of the hassle placed before the aviators of today."

Would you like to read that again and then have a little think about the sort of reaction that it's going to get?

Clearly, you are ignorant of just how oversubscribed Heathrow is and how much pressure the ATC staff are under to keep it operating at max. capacity. (The "new" system relates to En-route control and as such Heathrow has nothing to do with it.)The fact that Helis don't often have to use the runways is immaterial; they still have to be co-ordinated and worked into the system and they are a distraction to the main task.

It seems to me that too many people expect the underfunded, understaffed and underprovided (concrete) ATC system to be all things to all people. You only get a pint into a pint pot if you pour it very gently.

Let me ask, how many pax do you get in your machine?? Most of our fixed wing traffic carries between 50 and 450. It seems to me then that in the grand scheme of things you are pretty small cheese .

"But please, all you pen pushing rubber desk jonnies out there.....let us get on with the job at hand.............namely flying! Without us you don’t even have a job!"

You are bang out of order. All you are likely to get with that sort of attitude is a bunch of fives.

Sir/ madam your attitude is ill informed and offensive. I don't bear grudges but an apology would be quite acceptable, thank you.

Point 4

:)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Two courses are being run for certain helicopter "pilots":

1. Charm and decorum.
2. Patience and virtue.

Courses usually last for 2 days, but for some candidates may take over ten years to complete...

[Spitoon]

Sad to see that some pilots never see anything beyond a piece of concrete or tarmac and the ATC voice at an airport. At large airports (certainly in the UK) ATC are just contractors and are bound by the rules and demands of the airport operator. In my experience, although a controller may know that a runway slot has been allocated, he or she doesn't give it much thought when an aircraft is ready to go or to land - the important thing is to shift the traffic in the most overall efficient way. I'd be surprised if there weren't a lot of controllers who were as surprised as the pilots at the apparently cavalier attitude of BAA.

If you've got a letter like this, take a look who wrote it and go speak to them - I'd lay money it wasn't ATC.

PS - and don't blame ATC for recording the take off or landing time either - it's got to be done for lots of reasons but that's probably where the slot allocators get their data.

[Fortyodd]

Crabthing,

If you want to know, (and I suggest for the sake of your general well-being that you find out soon), just how much ATC at LHR bend over backwards to help out Heli's in the LHR CTR then speak to any of the Pilots from the Met's ASU or Virgin HEMS whose daily grind involves going just about everywhere within the CTR that ATC wish they wouldn't. As has already been stated, their task is to keep the lumps of tin away from each other and not to make up for a lack of planning, forethought or poor time keeping on the part of the pilot.

[Crabette]

Ok, I've taken a tumble from my high horse following an uncontrolled gallop over ATC. My comments were harsh and obviously upset a couple of you by pointing both barrels at the pigeon and not the messenger - namely the various policy makers & bean counters.

A large apology to 99% of controllers, I know all too well the fine work you do keeping the system moving and safe given the constraints placed upon you. Keep up the good work and try to smile now and again!

[Skycop]

I concur with the high quality of the service given to we heli pilots coming in and out the EGLL zone.

Thanks ATC, some of us do very much appreciate the help we are given, especially on 119.9, but not forgetting 132.7 and 126.45.

Thanks from all of us (now please can I come in early?):D

[Daifly]

I know this is a rotary forum, but I hope you'll let a plank post...

The "BAA" Slots are indeed the ones which if you abuse will get you a ban. They are adminstrated by a company called Airport Coordination Ltd (www.acl-uk.org) which is owned by a selection of the world's favourite (and debt-ridden) airlines.

For the majority of GA (i.e. non-airline) customers a slot has to be obtained through a recognised handling agent (BA Exec or Metro for the majority of us).

The times that ACL use are those provided by the Stand Allocations Unit (or HOC as it's mainly known) - I'm not entirely certain where those numbers come from - probably Air Traffic.

If your delay is ATC inflicted (Brussels ATC slots for us fixed wingers) then that is an acceptable delay from ACL's point of view and is allowed for in the Adhoc operators procedures (on ACL's website). I don't think that it allows for delays caused by third party ATC delays (i.e. the post above about an aircraft landing at LTN following a slot delay and then a subsequent helo trip across would not be a valid reason for being late on a slot).

It's all related to Heathrow's limited parking space, not runway capacity. LHR have said that they can increase movements on the runways many times in the past (probably before Swanwick decided to send them all off to EGJJ though...), however Business Jets are not allowed to land without a slot even though until 12 months ago there was a GA apron with loads more space than aircraft - difficult to accept when the slots are to protect that apron space!! Can understand it for airliners who need a stand each.

So this shouldn't be a pop against ATC. They are a really good bunch, who will happily fire us locals off from the south runway even if it's in arrivals mode. If they can't get you in without a bit of hold then bear with them, they are busy after all. But the ban isn't anything to do with them, it's to do with a lack of education of GA and Helo operators. If you want to know more go and look at the Adhoc procedures on ACL's site.

[greenarrow]

Well it appears that the cage has been rattled,(a gentle push).
First of all I must agree that the boys in the watch tower do agood job even when the pressure is on.
The thread was started to inform the operators of the smaller companies and the private individuals of the pit falls of operating to and from Heathrow. Prepare yourself for a juggling act.
I recently went to that metropolis of iron tubes and recieved a Bollocking for landing on whilst taxiing.I was changing frequency to one that I had not pre selected on either box (sorry lack of crystal ball!). There is solutions to operations for Helis at Heathrow and now we have the guest from the ATC joining this thread maybe a joint solution could be found and put to those white collar workers who impose these restrictions upon us.



May the force be with you.:cool:

[CyclicRick]

Dear 120.4 and all.

"....a distraction to the main task"
"....small cheese"

I'm afraid this is the attitude we helicopter pilots have to put up with all the time. My experience is that controllers don't realize just how flexible we are in the air. We can do basically anything you like, stop, turn 180 on a sixpence and come in sideways! We don't need the runways.....USE IT!
I like controllers and get on with them perfectly 99% of the time, they do a damn good job under pretty stressfull conditions with great responsibility. It's a game of give and take, if a controller says to me " no can do" then thats exactly what he means and I accept that no questions BUT, being told to hover on the helipad and wait for a follow me when the bloody parking space is 20m in front of me and it's hot and I'm heavy is infuriating to say the least, especially when you have a top executive sitting in the back with enough money and clout to BUY the whole airport asking you what the hell you are doing!

I know we are small, I know we are slow, and I know we don't bring in the cash ( landing fee), but we are nippy, flexible and don't take up much space......have a heart.

The quip about a bollocking for landing to change a frequency warms my heart that I'm not the only one it's happend to. What about the follow me cars and marshallers that always insist that you park on the spot DOWNWIND! Who trains these chaps for gods sake.

[BHPS]

CyclicRick

Understand the frustration, but seems to me that what you describe is yet another Airport operator induced regulation, not ATC.

I regularly fly out of an airport in the NE of the UK which operates a large number of helicopters. I can only say that ATC do a fantastic job in mixing helos, that struggle to do anything more than about 120Kts on approach, with the bigger fixed-wing brethren doing 160Kts plus to 4 miles, and all of this regularly in poor weather.

On good days they also have the smaller egg beaters flying in and around the zone mixing it up with the flying club aircraft in addition to the regular scheduled traffic.

However a certain famous airport operator does apply some regulations that the based operators find strange (operating times, etc), but that isn't ATC's fault, they just have to work their way around these regs and take the flak from pilots who do not know or do not understand the airport operators restrictions.

Certainly all the complaints I have read on this subject so far appear to be aimed at the airport operator, not ATC who are doing their best to move us around in the quickest and most efficient way that they can.

[Heliport]

Good discussion.
One of the strengths of Rotorheads is that we can discuss these things with the benefit of hearing points of view from both 'sides'.
Thank you to the ATCers for joining in.

[t'aint natural]

Each year the Helicopter Club of Great Britain sets aside a day to give Heathrow controllers a jolly down the helilanes, the purpose being to acquaint ATC more closely with the abilities and special problems of helicopters, and to show 'em a good time. This year I believe it was May 11th, and about 15 controllers were expected. I wasn't there so I don't know.
I suspect that few members of the Club ever land at Heathrow, and this aspect of operations may be neglected in discussions. Perhaps it could be factored in next time.
These flights are good for both parties, and give us an opportunity to show how much we appreciate the assistance of ATC in the London zone.

[Helinut]

The BHAB have a regular meeting with NATS concerning ATC and helicopter operations in the Heathrow and London City Zones. There has been a standing offer of helicopter flights for ATC controllers from the BHAB. At the last meeting detailed arrangements were agreed to allow ATC to be flown around the heliroutes. Don't know whether they have actually happened yet.

NATS has been working hard recently to train up additional controllers for their SVFR desks (the ones that control helicopters in the Zone). I am sure it will be useful ( and hopefully enjoyable)for these recently traned controllers, and give them a pilot's view of these Ops.

[CyclicRick]

I think the idea of taking controllers for jolly's to have a look is a very good one, I've had the chance to watch a radar controller at work. I must admit it totally baffeled me how they manage to make head nor tail of all those blips, respect.

I think the the argument that most of the hassle lies with the airport authorities is a valid one aswell( see below), but I think maybe the controllers need a little more coaching about helicopter operations and capabilitys, especially at airports with fewer helicopter movements.
My experience is, as was said earlier, once they get to know helicopters there's much less of a problem.

I had to fly into Frankfurt (EDDF) one day because there were "absolutley no available parking slots" at the GAT for my company Falcon 50, when I got there the place was deserted, the boss looked at me as though I was total idiot. I was carpeted for being totally incompetant for not getting a slot with no amount of explanation accepted!
An ex RAF controller friend of mine confirmed my plight saying that when EDDF radar complained of traffic saturation, he (stationed in Berlin) used to switch onto their radar only to see there was almost nothing going on ( they didn't know he could do that).

Maybe they should do a shift at Heathrow!

[Bright-Ling]

The last flights were about two weekends ago.......and yes I missed them too!!

Anyone with a spare SK76 able to take us again soon!!?!!? (esp harrods ones!!)

B-L

[connavar]

If Helinuts reference to the delay at Luton is the flight I beleive it is this suddenly becomes much more fun.

The Operator had been contracted to pick up 2 pax at Luto, 2 Pax Battersea Heliport and then take them to view a "facility" at Heathrow.

For both the Airports the Operator is required to "book in" with a Handling Agent. The Handling agent then deals with all the logistics and communications to arrange the landing, the Operator is effectively out of the loop. The Handling agent chosen on this occasion was also the owner / Operator at Battersea and the owner of the facility at the GA terminal at Heathrow. One agent - All nice and tidy you'd like to think.

However, at no time were the Helo Operator advised that they were subject to a "Slot" time, and even though both the pilot and his Ops team (phone and fax) advised the Handling Agent at Heathrow that the flight would be delayed leaving Luton, (note that they have to contact the Handling Agent as they are the only point of contact!), they were never advised of a change to the landing "slot" time or of any potential violation.

They continued the flight as per their plan, albeit some 15 minutes late, and were at no time advised by ATC or any other means that they had missed their "slot".

It was not until some 3 months later that a letter arrived from BAA advising them that all their operations into London Heathrow were banned for the next 30 day's. This was the first notification - no warning, no discussion.

Living under the Flightpath of Heathrow, and knowing several controllers personally, I appreciate how busy ATC are, and am not pointing the finger at them.

My question is quite simple - why was there no communication from the Handling agent ref. the need for a slot time, the potential violation, and finally the actual violation? Also were the Handling Agent penalised in any way for failure to pass on the information?

[Helinut]

connavar,

In a number of ways the details of the two flights don't match up: I can only conclude that they are different.

Which leads me to wonder just how many bans does BAA issue to helicopter operators??

They also seem to be cases of summary justice with little or no opportunity to defend yourself.