Spain sees the light, France next ?

[captplaystation]

Prohiben utilizar el español en las comunicaciones aeronáuticas en España (http://eldia.es/movil/2014-06-11/sociedad/sociedad3.htm)



Sorry for "Google Translate", but, reading this, it seems the light is only a faint glimmer of hope, still a few hurdles to pass.




The Spanish Air Safety Agency (EASA) is intended to prohibit by law the use of Spanish in communications between aircraft and towers and air traffic control centers in Spain and implement English as the operating language.

Given this, the main and pilot associations Spanish air traffic controllers, among which are the Bar Pilots, the Spanish pilots' union (SEPLA) Airlines and the Trade Union of Air Traffic Controllers (USCA), have expressed rejection of this future law on the grounds that reduces operational safety.

In this sense, the management believes that the pilot of inability to speak Spanish "can reduce situational awareness" of the crews and drivers, resulting in less safety.

Since Sepla recognize "convenience" to use English even consider that "should be used only in those situations where operational has involved a foreign aircraft that does not know the language," as recommended by the International Civil Aviation Organization ( ICAO).

For this reason, the two groups will be affected by the plan have sent a letter to the Director General of Civil Aviation, Angel Luis Arias, and the director of the (EASA), Isabel Maestre, considering that no "should be implemented so generally in all situations. "

Also complain that there is evidence of conducting a risk management analysis or recommendation thereon by the Study and Analysis of Incident Notifications Air Traffic (CEANITA).

Different employers have to be explained within the expert committees, composed of members of the signatory organizations where the needs that must be implemented in the Spanish airspace in relation to security are analyzed, "as countries come environment of our country. "

Meanwhile, the aviation authorities have requested the support of the various Spanish airline to introduce the English-only, before the change in the rules for this measure is backed by law.

[LGW Vulture]

They'll probably go on strike now! :uhoh:

[Callsign Kilo]

If this is implemented it will be done so kicking and screaming. Operating into the likes of BCN and MAD with no one listening out and everyone talking over everybody else would be comical if it wasn't so frustrating. Situational Awareness is largely guesswork, however I doubt much, if any, consideration is given to it by Spanish operators who religiously keep to their mother tongue. Their airports, their airspace, their rules seems to be the general attitude.

[HyFlyer]

There is ZERO chance this would even be considered in France.

[ZeBedie]

I have some sympathy for those who want to keep the ability to speak Spanish: ATC comms are one thing, but if you have a an unusual emergency, or maybe a potential terrorist incident, the last thing you want is to be discussing it in a foreign language.

[newt]

If that's the case then nobody is going to argue if you revert to your own language but for everyday communication it should be English.

I suspect France will never change neither will Russia or China!

I think we accept far too much incompatibility in aviation eg metres and feet!:ok:

Good job it's not standard to use Spanish or I would never have been able to fly!

[Lockheed_Blackbird]

May i remind you that french is the official aeronautic language.
So all pilots and ATC should be speaking french.


So it's normal that it won't apply in France.

[Vilters]

For Flight Safety purposes, English should be the ONLY approved language for ANY comm, in ALL countries worldwide.


Flight Safety should be the ONLY concern in this matter.

[flyboyike]

Speaking of Greek, I have a colleague, who is ex-Helleniki Aeroporia and by his own admission between all the training he went to in the US and all the time he spent here otherwise, his own English is by now much better than his Greek.

[RVF750]

But seriously,


Here in Türkiye, it's also a problem. However, ATC do their very best to speak English and as it takes forever to communicate something in Turkish, due to the lack of technical wording for that language, nearly all Turkish pilots are happy to use English too.


I find, that where a non standard request is needed, it's often quicker to ask my F/o to ask in Turkish and translate the reply to me.


It works O.K. Typing this on a Turkish keyboard is, however, a nightmare!

[SKS777FLYER]

French for Airbus flight manuals..... Recall some light hearted discussions around here of French language aircraft flight manuals.....:}

[JammedStab]

May i remind you that french is the official aeronautic language.
So all pilots and ATC should be speaking french.


So it's normal that it won't apply in France.

It was considered in France for CDG airport with planned implementation. Can you believe that a separatist provincial government in Quebec was lobbying and successful in stopping it.

Two Brits died in a ground collision between and Shorts 360 and an MD-80 some time later with language as part of the cause.

[deefer dog]

Fat chance that this long overdue safety initiative will ever get traction!

Dream on, whatever next? The Yanks using correct ICAO R/T phraseology, discipline and order within Spanish ATC, cheap fuel in Italy, ramp agents in Brazil that you can trust, CAKOK in Beijing?

[hec7or]

My understanding is that it is considered unsafe for a transmission to be translated into english from the local language by the person transmitting, then translated back into the mother tongue from english by the person receiving, which could give rise to misinterpretation of instructions or clearances, particularly clearances.

I don't have a problem with this as for example, I would prefer the traffic I see on TCAS to know to which level he/she has been correctly cleared without any confusion, instead of everyone else "on freq" hearing about a level bust in perfect english.

Not ideal, but on balance I prefer the status quo.

[Trim Stab]

Good job it's not standard to use Spanish or I would never have been able to fly!

And therein lies the nub of the problem. English-native speakers always shout that all communication should be in English, without ever having made the effort to learn a second-language themselves. If it is mandatory that all aeronautical communication be in English, that would kill off most GA in non-English speaking countries - as outside English-speaking countries most PPLs don't speak much English. Why should a French PPL be obliged to learn to speak English in order to fly around his own country?

My view on this is simple - in controlled airspace both local language and English should be acceptable. Outside controlled airspace only local language should be acceptable - and if you can't speak the local language don't go into uncontrolled airspace!

The problems that I have seen arising in France are due to pilots flying around in uncontrolled airspace using English - thereby not being understood by local pilots.

[Plastic787]

Trim Stab that is completely besides the point. Yes it is a happy coincidence that the language of aviation is English and that has fortunately led to monolingual people such as myself being able to have a foothold in the industry but there needs to be standardisation. The rights of a native of any one particular country to be able to fly around his country speaking just their native language are not sacrosanct and are quite frankly irrelevant.

The cold hard fact is that multiple languages on an R/T frequency significantly degrades situational awareness for those not fluent in the language concerned. This has DIRECTLY caused incidents and been responsible for loss of lives and continues to have the potential to do so. How you can overlook this is beyond belief. It's small minded and petty to regard it as a laziness issue when in fact it is a critical safety issue irrelevant to what languages people studied at school.

[Trim Stab]

The cold hard fact is that multiple languages on an R/T frequency significantly degrades situational awareness for those not fluent in the language concerned. This has DIRECTLY caused incidents and been responsible for loss of lives and continues to have the potential to do so. How you can overlook this is beyond belief. It's small minded and petty to regard it as a laziness issue when in fact it is a critical safety issue irrelevant to what languages people studied at school.

I am not "overlooking" this issue. I am a native English speaker, but have made a lot of effort to learn French to a bilingual level (I have ICAO level 6) and also German, Spanish and Italian to approximately ICAO level 4 standard. When flying in uncontrolled airspace I always use local language - or else I don't venture into uncontrolled airspace.

I find it arrogant beyond belief that many English-only speakers expect every aviator around the world to learn English - just so that English-speaking pilots can blunder around in their uncontrolled airspace. Do you really expect (for example) every swiss glider pilot - many of whom rarely if ever venture out of their own local valley - to learn English just so that you can fly into their valley?

[BizJetJock]

significantly degrades situational awareness for those not fluent in the language concerned
And therein lies the point; you seem to assume that all the people with level 4 or above English are "fluent", and we know this is far from the case. So you are saying that the SA of native English speakers is more important than that of people who speak any other language. Good luck with that argument!

[Vilters]

As I posted before; The ONLY argument in this matter should be FLight Safety.

But what do you do?
When during an International meeting between heads of states, EVERYBODY gives their speech in English, and ONLY the president of FRANCE uses "son francais". That was the most arogant ( or incompetent ) show ever seen on TV.

And the very same thing happened (with a different president of France) just a few days ago during the WW1 celebrations in Normandy.

How hard-headed can one be? ?

I love France, it is a nice place to live in, but on some issues? ? They have to wake up and let go.

To improve air traffic situational awareness for everybody in the air and on the ground, only a single language should be alowed for ALL comms.

This should have been mandatory from day 1 of international aviation.

Ps: I speak 4; Nederlands, Frans, Duits en Engels.
(Dutch, Francais, German, and English. )

[Plastic787]

BizJetJock now you are just twisting my words in order to make an argument, which is ridiculous. I do expect that anyone wanting to fly should learn English BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE RULES. Yes it makes it fortunate for me but that is a happy accident because I just so happen to come from an English speaking country. It would be the same with any other language chosen. The basic argument is the same for as just pointed out, it is a flight safety issue.

Trim Stab, good for you for learning a few more languages, I am genuinely envious of you and wish I could have done it myself. But don't attempt to relate that to the aviation world because the need for one universal language stems from a need for standardisation and therefore safety. It does not and should not respect the desire of individual nationalities to communicate in their native language for their personal comfort.

[Proof Reader]

If the UK CAA recommended to the Home Office that UK citizens should not travel by Air France due to reduced safety levels caused by their pilots not speaking English on the R/T.

[Machdiamond]

Never ending debate.

As some posters have already mentioned, and Vilters apparently fails to understand, is that pilots talking to ATC in their native language will have a lower probability of misunderstanding - this increases flight safety.

On the other hand, and obviously, those who do not understand the local language will lose situational awareness - this decreases flight safety.

So where does the balance between this increase and decrease in flight safety end up? Positive or negative? No one can pretend to know for sure, as it depends on the situations.

In my opinion, in controlled airspace the use of local language is beneficial (unless the local English proficiency level is excellent) while in uncontrolled airspace, local pilots should make an effort to switch to English whenever a pilot gets on the frequency in English. At least for those in his vicinity.

[Jet Jockey A4]

To all of you who claim only English should be used in aviation communications... well I think you are smoking some really good stuff!

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.

To the poster who claims all speeches are done in English by politicians at major event... What are you talking about? Are you on crack?

Most of the time when I see meetings between heads of states they either have a translator with them or an ear piece for simultaneous translation or they pretend to know was is being said because they have seen a translated version of that speech given to them ahead of time.

Look no further than the UN in NYC when they gather in the main hall for sessions... All of them have ear pieces to get the translation of the speech being made.

You "English" only guys better get off your high horses because it will never happen and it shouldn't happen.

My $0.02.

[Reinhardt]

The problem with most anglo-saxons pilots is not that they don't want to learn a foreign language - it's that they cannot...
As a result, many airlines are flooded with semi-illiterate types from Australia, NZ or US, who nevertheless enjoy an unfair advantage, that they speak THE language. Commonly enough, they didn't find jobs in their national carriers, where they had to suffer more serious competition from their fellow nationals. They would of course have been TOTALLY UNABLE to become pilots having to go through foreign language flight training, be it italian, french, spanish or czech..
It's an extra burden all of us from various countries had to go through, at least to the benefit of our intellectual abilities. But when you are monolingual, you cannot figure that.
Now regarding ATC issues, I have been flying regionals then widebodies for years all over the world, and no, those places where they mix with their languages are not such an issue - anyway, are you really listening to the rest of the R/T ?
I think it's just because anglo-saxons find it annoying - I know it ! - when they have people in the vicinity conversing in another language , probably because it does remind them that there is a life outside, of which they cannot grasp anything, so sad...
I hope to be literate in russian, italian, german and french by the way...

[Trossie]

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event...
G-SSWN, CDG, 25 May 2000

[Herod]

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event

IIRC SAS at Milan Linate. I was flying there not long afterward, and the weather was ratsh*t. We were following a local, and on short final I was trying to get confirmation that he had vacated the runway, since all comms between him and the tower were in Italian. All set for a go-around when it was confirmed, in English, that he had done so.

[pudoc]

Has anyone noticed how nearly all Air Europa pilots are now speaking completely in English?

They've definitely been made aware of the change, and are following it (for now).

[Plastic787]

Reinhardt for such a clearly intelligent individual such as yourself I find it remarkable that you fail to grasp such a simple concept that no matter what language you choose for international R/T communications, there will be some who have the advantage that it is their native language. So which language do we choose then, maybe Klingon?

Maybe then we would also be spared your posts generalising and stereotyping numerous nationalities in one go, presumably because of some form of racism, which incidentally is what you accuse THEM of. Talk about hypocrisy.

[recceguy]

Jet Jockey A4 and Reinhardt, you were spot on !

Plastic 787, by accusing people you disagree with of racism, it's easy answer and you just followed the well-used path of political correctness, so common in those countries the issue is all about :)

[Plastic787]

So someone can make a statement that implies the reason English speaking pilots don't like others using other languages is because basically they don't like "Johnny foreigner" - CLEARLY IMPLYING racism - but then in the same breath totally patronises various nationalities (funnily enough all English speaking ones) and talks about them in a disparaging manner yet nobody should be allowed to rightfully call that out as racism itself and how hypocritical it is? Bravo sir.

[Reinhardt]

787 (?) you missed the point.
Just that some individuals, from those countries we all know, will often have very average background and abilities, and then by the virtue of having THE language as their mother tongue, they miraculously look brilliant and once again, enjoy therefore an unfair - although real - advantage.
And by the way many of those foreigners will speak and write a better english than those "native" speakers...

[Plastic787]

Reinhardt again that is going to happen no matter what language you choose. I don't care what language is chosen as the language of international R/T communications, regardless of whether it is English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Malay, Esperanto or Klingon, it should be the ONLY one spoken.

I think I clearly grasped your point when you clearly generalised that Anglo Saxons can't speak other languages and therefore get annoyed when others speak in a language they can't grasp...

[FLEXPWR]

I truly hope "Lockheed Blackbird" is joking, because the ICAO ELP is about gaining level 4 or more ... IN ENGLISH! If he likes French language that much, why did he choose an English name to post? Should be called "L'oiseau noir"...

Local/National language is fine in flying clubs and uncontrolled airspace. Any commercial flight should be operated in English. Period. How come the Dutch, the Swiss (They have at least 3 national languages and none of them is English), Danish, Swedish, Austrians, etc, can all use English for professional pilots, and France or Spain wouldn't? It is just resistance to change and to adapt. If the french resist this so much, maybe they do not deserve the ELP level 4 or 5 that they have on their license. Should not be a problem if they really had the ELP they claim?

[con-pilot]

The problem with most anglo-saxons pilots is not that they don't want to learn a foreign language - it's that they cannot...

I may have misunderstood you when you claim that Anglo-Saxon pilots cannot learn a foreign language.

But in my opinion, it is not that we cannot learn a foreign language, as we certainly can, it is a question of just what language or more accurately, languages.

I have flown Central and South American, Spanish, so that would be easy as every country speaks Spanish, Except for Brazil, oops, Portuguese. So now that is three languages, English, Spanish and Portuguese and I’ve not crossed any oceans.

Now I’ve also flown in the Philippines, China, Singapore, Viet Nam (well after the war), Dubai, India, etc. and I’ve not even gotten to Turkey, Greece and the rest of ‘Europe’. So how many languages is that? I’ve lost count.

No, there can be only one language used in ATC communication by both pilots and controllers and that language is English.

[barit1]

Lockheed Blackbird:May i remind you that french is the official aeronautic language.


Riiiiight...

ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements (LPRs) - English For Aviation (http://englishforaviation.com/ICAO-requirements.php)

[fokker1000]

I'm sure this Lockheed blackbird person is a wind up. ... Can't be that ill informed.... Surement.
Mon Dieu!

[+TSRA]

Just my 2c worth here as a monolingual pilot who was once told never to take a French class ever again but can order a beer in 7 languages. :}

When flying for my operator, I fully expect that, per the internationally accepted standards, that I will be able to communicate in English no matter where I am dispatched to within controlled airspace. With that being said, I also understand that there will be the possibility for local language(s) on frequency. I expect, however, that I will be provided any pertinent information from those local conversations - as someone pointed out, whether an aircraft cleared the runway I am about to land on. Furthermore, I fully expect that any emergency transmission I make will be understood by every pilot.

Now, were I to privately trek off into some Swiss valley (as another poster alluded to), I would think it best to do some due diligence and find out if they actually spoke English locally. If they did not, I would at least try my best to figure out the basic lingo for the area.

The fact that English and French are the only two "official" languages of aviation are a happy coincidence to aviation history. Had China figured out how to fly 2,000 years ago or had Germany won the war, it would be a far different story. In any event, it benefits some and not others.

[bcgallacher]

Reinhardt and his ilk are living in a little world of their own if they have not yet realised that the real world is rapidly becoming monolingual or at least national languages becoming secondary. The language of communication is English for good or ill and no arrogant and insulting statements will change that. The youth of today communicate across the globe via social media etc in a single language and in a few generations most educated people in all countries will use English as a first language.

[Trim Stab]

+TSRA = spot on and thank you for your reasonable attitude. A shame not more English-only speaking pilots are prepared to make an effort to share the burden of increasing flight safety.

As I implied in an earlier post, I would like to see simple rules adopted by ICAO.

1. In controlled airspace, English and local language should be equally acceptable - the onus being on ATC to be of sufficient linguistic competence to ensure separation. Aircrew should be encouraged to contribute to flight safety by gaining ICAO linguistic competence in languages other than English.

2. In uncontrolled airspace, only local language should be acceptable. If you do not have equivalent of level 4 competence in the local language then don't venture into uncontrolled airspace!

[Flytdeck]

Did a Google and Bing search on "Official Aeronautic Language" and did not come up with anything other than English EXCEPT for a passenger on an Air France flight who was told they could not sit in an exit row unless fluent in French as FRENCH was the official language of aviation.

After 40 years flying for airlines (35 on international routes) would have to support a common language in aviation. I admire those who have made the effort (a very LARGE effort) to become fluent in English so as to pursue their passion for aviation. For those of us who were fortunate to have English as their mother tongue, it took a large burden off our shoulders and our transition to professional pilots much simpler. Our only linguistic obligation was to learn and use STANDARD aviation phraseology.

Canada went through the dilemma of muti-lingual communications many years ago (mid 70s I believe) when they changed their air regulation to permit both French and English to be spoken in Quebec. This generated a large controversy in the aviation community, but politics demanded that the change be adopted. It should be noted that there has not been a language related aviation incident (as far as I know) in Quebec airspace.

Personally, I believe that there is a degradation to safety when one is unable to understand local or enroute communications. This, unfortunately, is the reality of our environment at this time. I applaud Spain to taking a stand on the issue and would support this initiative in other countries. As a unilingual pilot, however, it appears to be self-serving. This initiative needs international support from the aviation communities in those countries that do NOT have English as their primary language.

France has played a big part in the history of aviation. Still think the Bleriot was one of the most avant-garde designs of the time. French was recognised as the "civilised" language many years ago and the common language of European diplomats. A battle or two brought English to the dominant global position is has today. English is currently the official language of aviation and as such, should be promoted as the common language in environments where international aviators operate.

[NG_Kaptain]

I've found Iran to be very good, their ATC and domestic traffic do all communications in English and have had very few difficulties with them. Turkey tries hard, though I find the "Ankara Sisters" very annoying to listen to.
In two places I have had unusual circumstances make communicating with ATC difficult. Once in Caracas one of my tyres (tires) disintegrated on takeoff, I tried to advise ATC in English, they could not understand what I was saying, being bilingual in Spanish I explained it to them in Spanish. Before doing that I told the American Airlines on final about debris on the runway so he went around.
The next was in Beijing when I had a passenger with a heart attack, did PAN PAN and tried to explain, the controller was totally lost. A domestic Chinese flight came up on frequency with an American captain who told me he would have his Chinese copilot translate for me the details. Paramedics met us and the outcome was happy.

[etsd0001]

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.

BEA Trident at Split 1976

[deefer dog]

When EASA ATC members from France and Spain are talking to their national colleagues in a language that I don't understand, I always find myself jumping in between their conversations because I can't tell when they have concluded.

When admonished I very much enjoy explaining to them exactly why I am likely to repeat the mistake, time and time again until they use English.

[bubbers44]

In Central America I was put in a hold at 6,000 ft which put me just below the tops for approach. It was not a busy airport but a pilot and controller kept talking in Spanish so about the 3rd turn in holding I got nervous about what was happening.

As I was joining the inbound hold a break in the clouds momentarily showed a plane converging with us so broke off my hold to avoid him. I was within 10 seconds of calling it a near miss thanks to the cloud break in a no radar environment.

I had a few words with him because he put our airliner in jeopardy to help his buddy land first putting him through the FAF at our holding point and altitude.

[Squawk7777]

G-SSWN, CDG, 25 May 2000

Crew did NOT maintain sterile cockpit. I wouldn't have been that difficult to figure it out. If you don't accept that foreign countries have different rules, don't fly there!

BEA Trident at Split 1976

If you consider the tens of thousands of safe flights that occur in non-English airspace, the risk is very very low. It is usually grossly exaggerated by the usual French haters and monoglots. I fly into Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean and don't feel any less safe when I flew contract for a UK operator out of MAN and BHX. A little adjustment to your local environment, an open mind and common sense are more valuable then thumping on an ANO and expecting the whole world to adjust to you.

Another fact that the foreign language R/T haters like to ignore is that the military does NOT necessarily use VHF in the same airspace. Where is the outcry? Silenced by nationalism? This is what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas?

I am actually not surprised that the finger gets usually pointed at France, after having lurked on this forum for almost fourteen years now. Little details like dual language ATC in Germany, Canada etc. gets carefully omitted by the accused. Haters are going to hate, no matter what, using the same pet argument over and over.

I wish more UK controllers would speak better Queen's English. That would make me feel much safer!

[Squawk7777]

When admonished I very much enjoy explaining to them exactly why I am likely to repeat the mistake, time and time again until they use English.

So you are one of those R/T phraseology nazis that likes to lecture everybody on the airwave, blocking other pilot's valuable time and possible safety. You have no regard for others with this selfish attitude. I hope I never share the same airspace with you!:ugh:

[FLEXPWR]

Squawk, easy to blame and redefine who was wrong during these accidents.

Yet in CDG, had they been using a common language (English in that instance) the chances of an accident occuring would be slim to none.

The other examples provided on this thread about Germany or Canada are different IMHO. I do not remember any instance in my time in Germany, where I was confronted to ANYONE not speaking or understanding English, even outside aviation. I Canada, some hardcore French speakers want to keep French as an official language for aviation, based on historical pride and claims of cultural identity. I have yet to meet any Canadian (or Quebecois, for that matter) that is unable to read, speak and understand English.

Now the French are a different breed. It may be more pronounced in the previous generation, but they are reluctant to speak English for a very good reason: THEY CAN'T. Listen to the majority of AF flights abroad, their level of English is appalling, I know a significant number of AF pilots who readily admit that they have a problem with English in the cockpit and many do struggle on international flights to keep up with ATC. Just read the CVR transcript of AF447, it'll show an example at work, where numerous times neither pilot understands who ATC is talking to, or misread instructions. Sad coincidence it was this particular flight, just the latest factual example I came across to read.

Now if Spain makes the move, one can hope others will follow their example, but I would not count on the French, where pride, arrogance and ignorance will prevail against common sense, improved comms with international flights, and improved safety for all.

[Reinhardt]

" pride, arrogance and ignorance " :


They just develop and build airliners, jet fighters, helicopters, regional turboprops, business jets, avionics, jet engines, helicopter turbines, GA aircraft, missiles, ICBMs with MIRVs, space rockets and satellites ... (*)
and for that reason have to suffer the jealousy of those who don't, and who, although speaking the famous language as mother tongue, would like for that reason to be associated with the aerospace glory of UK and USA - got them ?)
for the illiterates : Airbuses, Rafales and Mirages, Pumas, Squirrels, Dolphins, ATR 72, Falcon 7X, CFM56 and M88, Arriel, Astazou, Robin, Exocet (!) and MICA, M51, Ariane, SPOT ...
and they do the avionics suites of Russian Sukkhois, Migs and combat helicopters ...
and they do squadron exchanges with the Russian AF
and the even sell with much pleasure big assault combat ships to the same Russians ...


Now to try to be a little bit balanced, it would not disturb me if CDG was a little bit-more English speaking - I have been translating for years to the F/Os anything of interest happening in front of us, or even behind - but that's the problem with all the big countries, like Russia, China, Brasil. Of course in Danemark or Philippines it's easier to use English.
And as said by recceguy...sometimes it's racism (how do you dare nominate Australia or others ?) and then it becomes normal and accepted french-bashing the other way...

[ATC Watcher]

The white elephant is back again , comes every 3-4 years in this Forum.Same arguments , same conclusions.
Quick ones for the new people here:

Fact 1 : ICAO language requirements still says that the local language of the country overflown is to be used, and in case incompatibility English language is to be used. Many attempst to change or reverse this always faileld so far.

Fact 2 ICAO is made of States, not a supra national body ordering States what to do. majority of those States wants to keep their national language, so forget ICAO changing their SARPS on that issue.

Fact 3 : there is ( unfortunately ) no scientific or statistical evidence that would suggest that it would be safer to mandate English operations everywhere. There are no recorded accident in last 60 years where language was a large contributing factor to sustain this.(*)
On the contrary the use of local language can be demonstrated to be " safer" in communications between 2 nationals using the same language. ( as it was used in Quebec in 1976 )

So in a nutshell , forget it, ICAO and even EASA will not look into this ( do not mix up AESA and EASA as the first poster here did )

(*) before posting the ususal BS on the CDG collision of Zagreb , or even Cali, it would be helpful to read again the conclusions of the 3 Accidents reports. Language did not caused , or even significantly contributed to those accidents. Language is mentioned , but not as a cause or a listed contributing factor.

[Denti]

Little details like dual language ATC in Germany, Canada etc. gets carefully omitted by the accused.

Dual language ATC in germany exists only for VFR traffic where both languages may be used. For IFR traffic only english is allowed, except for emergency use of course. However, since ATCOs from all over europe work both in germany and in eurocontrol controlling german airspace any local lingo the relevant ATCO might speak should work as well.

[DaveReidUK]

Split was Yugoslavia - Missed geography classes, uh ??Or perhaps most of the responses to the post you quoted were from people able to understand that Spain/Spanish was simply being used as an example to help readers grasp the concept ... :ugh:

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event

[Squawk7777]

Dual language ATC in germany exists only for VFR traffic where both languages may be used. For IFR traffic only english is allowed, except for emergency use of course. However, since ATCOs from all over europe work both in germany and in eurocontrol controlling german airspace any local lingo the relevant ATCO might speak should work as well.

May I add that there's a little device in the commercial aeroplane called TCAS? Makes this dual language r/t thread almost obsolete.

Yet in CDG, had they been using a common language (English in that instance) the chances of an accident occuring would be slim to none.

Pure speculation on your part. They did not maintain sterile cockpit and were chatting. Yet you shamelessly point the finger at only one person/party. Who is now being arrogant and ignorant?

(*) before posting the ususal BS on the CDG collision of Zagreb , or even Cali, it would be helpful to read again the conclusions of the 3 Accidents reports. Language did not caused , or even significantly contributed to those accidents. Language is mentioned , but not as a cause or a listed contributing factor.

Watcher, please don't bother those people with facts. They have already made up their minds.

[Plastic787]

So, to summarise the point of view shown by many here, being a definite contributory factor to accidents and being one of "the holes in the cheese" is perfectly fine just as long as you can't prove it is the biggest hole? Honestly words fail me.

[Squawk7777]

... being a definite contributory factor to accidents and being one of "the holes in the cheese"

That's why barriers come in. As of "definite" that is still debatable. As I previously wrote, a little adjustment to a different environment is much better than a arrogant and pompous attitude. :ugh:

[Plastic787]

And one of those barriers is insisting on a common language. In what way is insisting on a common language arrogant and pompous? That's got nothing to do with it, it's safety critical. Otherwise it wouldn't have been decided upon in the first place.

I was accused here of a lazy response, one thing that is very definitely a lazy (and totally unsubstantiated) claim is that making English a single language for R/T communications is arrogant and pompous. Any way you can back that up? Or is it a lazy and easy defence against the FACT that many in the industry are lacking the required standard in English Language Proficiency?

[OFSO]

France.....true. I was at PPG last week when local light aircraft landing and departing were being controlled in French as the daily FR from Stansted turned out at sea and made his approach, being controlled in English. Poor visibility, low cloud, rain, one main runway.

Sure, nothing happened. So no problem, right ?

[Hotel Tango]

Oh dear, this old chestnut again.

So many comments from people who know so little. I endorse those posts made by Squawk7777 and ATC Watcher.

[ATC Watcher]

OPSO :Sure, nothing happened. So no problem, right ?

In the event you described, no. It would seem you perhaps do not understand the basics of what ATC is supposed to do and what the PIC responsibilities are as far as separation is concerned in controlled airspace in IFR/IMC..

An unpleasant feeling to hear an aircraft being given instructions in another language you do not understand while you are performing an approach in IMC, I fully understand it, been there myself, and would agree with you. But really an unsafe or problematic situation ? No.
Done everyday all around the world to hundreds of thousands of flights without problems.

[Plastic787]

All we seem to hear on this thread is the assertion that people saying the use of one language should be mandatory "don't know what they are talking about". This is in equal parts hypocrisy, complacency and stupidity.

Instead of imploring people to give examples where foreign R/T was in use and it led directly to disaster, equally (if not more importantly) why not try to imagine an example of a scenario where a near disaster, in fact, WOULD have become an actual disaster had ATC been communicating in two different languages?

To illustrate the point, think back to the events of the Runway incursion of a Boeing 757 (United Airlines 1448) on December 6th 1999 in the thick fog at Providence, Rhode Island. For those of you unfamiliar with this case, look it up. Only a marvellous piece of judgement and situational awareness from the Captain of the departing aircraft lined up on the same runway prevented another Tenerife.

Now imagine a very similar set of circumstances only this time at an airport in France with a non French speaking crew lined up on the threshold of the active runway and ATC trying to resolve the situation in French. Sound plausible? It certainly does to me. And cue disaster as one aircraft (completely oblivious to the threat facing them due to the use of a language they don't understand) accepts clearance for takeoff right into the teeth of an aircraft still on the active runway.

The set of events that transpired in Providence are a latent threat just waiting to happen again at an airfield where multiple languages are in use. We know all about Murphy's law.

But no, I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about do I? My insistence on a single language is pure arrogance and pomposity.

[VFR Only Please]

English-native speakers always shout that all communication should be in English, without ever having made the effort to learn a second-language themselves. If it is mandatory that all aeronautical communication be in English, that would kill off most GA in non-English speaking countries - as outside English-speaking countries most PPLs don't speak much English. Why should a French PPL be obliged to learn to speak English in order to fly around his own country?

My view on this is simple - in controlled airspace both local language and English should be acceptable. Outside controlled airspace only local language should be acceptable - and if you can't speak the local language don't go into uncontrolled airspace!

The problems that I have seen arising in France are due to pilots flying around in uncontrolled airspace using English - thereby not being understood by local pilots.

You're so right. I fly out of an uncontrolled airport in France. Whenever there's an English-speaker on the frequency, I make two calls, one in each language.

And Plastic787, dig the difference between controlled and uncontrolled airports. Language chauvinism is foolish, and dangerous.

[Plastic787]

And yet again, after a clearly reasoned post highlighting the inherent dangers of multilingual R/T comms (yes within a controlled environment because that's what the original post was all about for Christ's sake) the response is to cite "language chauvinism" without any reason or substantiating evidence. I give up. It really is pathetic.

[FLEXPWR]

Re: CDG accident, for those who claim this event had nothing to do with using different languages, here is an extract of the report, with the recommendations from DGAC.

4.1.8. in the light of the analysis of this accident and previously acquired experience, the DGAC study the expediency and methods of implementation for the systematic use of the English language for air traffic control at Paris Charles de Gaulle aerodrome, as well as the extension of this measure to other aerodromes with significant international traffic.

[Rigger92]

For my tuppence, I have just got home in time for the footie and routed through France. Whilst every controller spoke excellent English, the local traffic, and subsequent RT, was a mystery to me so my SA was zero! If it was the case that the internationally recognised language of the air was French, by virtue of my chosen profession, I would have to learn French, however; it has been agreed as English. To that end, be professional and speak English. Complain all you wish but if your argument is that you are in my country and should at least speak my language, imagine how many languages I need to learn when I route around the place! That is why there is a chosen and common language of the air. Grow up and be a professional for goodness sakes...

[Reinhardt]

A couple of months ago, crossing Algeria for two hours, virtually all the trafic (ATC and local aircraft) was in french. My F/O (N/Z) started to mumble - and I knew what he was about to express.


So I shot it first : don't blame the French for speaking french ... because those guys all around us are not french ! He didn't know what to answer.

[Trim Stab]

Plastic787 - as you admit in an earlier post, you have never learned a second-language - therefore you have no idea how silly your plan is that pilots and ATC should not be allowed to communicate in their own language in their own country.

[Airbanda]

BEA Trident at Split 1976

This was a mid air collision over Zagreb between a BA Trident in cruise and an Inex-Adria DC9 climbing out of Split. Cause was ATC failure to co-ordinate the DC9's climb so as to maintain separation between both aircraft. As ever it took several steps for holes in cheese to line up including communication errors between mid and upper sector controllers, staff not all at their post, premature withdrawal of a 'squawk' code and a late check in on upper sector by the DC9

The language used initially was English and with a potential opportunity for Trident crew to pick up an SA prompt when the Adria flight checked as climbing towards their level and with same estimate over Zagreb VOR.

The controller only lapsed into Serbo-Croat, either by instinct or for emphasis, when finally realising potential disaster was imminent within seconds.


The accident report is here (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/9-1982%20G-AWZT%20and%20YU-AJR.pdf):

[hec7or]

Grow up and be a professional for goodness sakes...

perhaps you could expand on this comment as I understand that in France it is mandatory for communications between ground stations and French registered aircraft to be carried out in French.

This is filed I believe as a difference from ICAO and therefore it would be perfectly professional, for a French Controller to speak in French under such circumstances.

Annoying though it is, it is a requirement in law.

[Wander00]

c7or, particularly if you live in France, speak reasonable conversational French, but little chance of passing the "aviation" French test. Hence I now gilds in UK

[bobwi]

If the official language in aviation would be Spanish we would have much less misunderstanding because the language is more clear, especially for numbers. Much less level busts, lost comms, say agains, etc. English really isn't very suitable and therefore we have so many rules and extras in the RT.

So I say, all aviation RT should be in Spanish.

[FlyHigh1973]

We are professional pilots, we fly in different countries and the best way for everyone to understand each other, to have good SA is for everyone to speak a common language. That language is English, it could have been any other. That's why we have to have at least ICAO level 4 english. It has nothing to do with national pride. It is what was agree by all ICAO nations.

I'm Portuguese and in Portuguese airspace you hardly ever hear us speak in Portuguese, we speak in English, why don't the spanish and french do it too.

[Banana4321]

Unfortunately the French will never do this. You need to understand the French phyche and what being "French" means. Being French means using the French language - it is what being French means. It's not living there, it's not having a French father.....it's speaking French.

The French will protect their language until the bitter end. Fighting it is a losing battle.

If the Americans spoke French then we wouldn't be having this conversation as all international (verbal) intercourse would be in French

[rollnloop]

Would english only speaking pilots boycott european airports until they speak english only be an acceptable interim solution ?

Meanwhile, level 6 spaniards, french or italian pilots may provide the workforce for channel or pond crossing :E

Now more seriously, i wonder if/when spanish will be in use (not excluding english being used simulteanouly) at some airports in US, since spanish may become the most spoken language there during this century or the next.

Btw i have no opposition to speak english only in main french airports and upper airspace, but i think we ´re more efficient on aprons or for any complex situation (safety or security) if we are allowed to use our mother tongue. It´s true btw that we ain ´t best european english speaker, but our english is still much better than most americans/brits ´ french so we shouldn ´t be so often mocked by our western cousins (scandinavians or dutch are more entitled to mock us). I am convinced english only on UAS/approach/tower at Cdg will happen within the next 10/20 years. Other main cities could take much longer, maybe 30 years until previous generations retire).

[ATC Watcher]

"Grow up and be a professional for goodness sakes..." , " Chauvinism" , " arrogance " etc..
Pheww!
Looks (again) like the Mirror or the Sun headlines.:hmm:

[172driver]

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.

Just get a handheld radio and sit next to Malaga (or any other big Spanish) airport for a little while, you might be surprised.

For the record - I speak fluent Spanish, but what's going on there is pure madness.

[737Jock]

The biggest issue with french on the r/t is that it seems impossible to say something in a short message. Or maybe its just the french desire to have a discussion about everything.
In any case the english transmissions in CDG are a lot shorter and more to the point.

BTW, american pilots at CDG are horrible! How about you guys pay attention and get some airport charts out!!! Instead of winding yourselves up about french r/t.
Your own version of r/t is far away from what icao thinks is acceptable anyway.

And british pilots should also try to leave some various horrible accents at home when talking over the airwaves. And realize that their long apologetic/ thank you so very much r/t stories are just annoying, blocking the frequency and that CAP whatever does not apply outside the UK.

KLM pilots need to stop putting THE before their callsign, and transavia (or is it trenseefiaa) should try less hard to talk with a fery heafy dutsch akksent. Everybody knows your dutch and for some reason no other dutch pilots do this.

German pilots need to put the callsign in the right place.

See you can come up with something about every language. Maybe we should all just speak chinese, at least the china southern could then fly direct routings instead of being vectored across every western country. (tongue in cheek)

[Keef]

I had a serious scare at an airport with parallel runways when ATC sent a French-speaking aircraft across in front of me (like a few hundred metres in front) to join the LH runway while I was on final for the RH. He'd spoken to me in English the whole time, to the other chap in French the whole time.

The ATCO may have had situational awareness, but I don't think the Frenchman or I did.

[A7700]

Nobody , even the french NTSB ( which have no ATC specialist in their teams) was able to assume that the SH330 crew was on the Local frequency when T/O clearance was given to the MD80..now why this so called professional captain who was told to line up after the departing in front of him line up after a clearing landing aircraft (when the co-pilot was expressing his right understanding of the situation) ? The main cause of this accident is the arrogance of those flying drivers who don't care about ATC again their airline profit !!! Just explain why the captain suicide some month later ??
English is no more a language , it's a tool. And it's the tool of liberalism used by the american to dominate the world. You should not be proud of that !

[FLEXPWR]

A7700, whatever you're smoking seems to give you great bouts of paranoia and hatred of pilots.

You're entitled to you opinions, like everyone else, but this topic is not about liberalism, stupid pilots who don't care about ATC to make profit for their airline (where did that come from??), or American domination of the world. English is not a tool to exterminate you or your neighbours.

I don't know why English was elected as the common language for ICAO and commercial aviation. The only thing I can say, is that as a non-native, English has been the easiest language to learn ever. It's grammar is simpler than French, Italian, German. The average Joe can use about 200 different words in the English language and live a normal life. The French use about 1800 words and there seems never enough to express themselves.

IMHO, arguing that a single language may reduce SA at the local level is a whole lot of bull. The aviation industry agreed on other common values in the past, like the Nautical Mile, knot, foot, etc. Imagine what Europe would be like if we had to change speed-altitude-distance and (why not) time units because one feels more comfortable with the units close to home. Most would agree this would be non sense.

Pilots and other aviation professionals had to LEARN the units used in the industry. You don't get confused with your car's speed indicator in km/h even when you used NM and knots all day at work. You're not gonna ask ATC to use km/h just because you are used to that in your car since you were 18 years old.

Well, in my view, the language issue is the same. Local languages should be used only in a limited way for uncontrolled traffic, and flying clubs. Once anyone takes the training to a professional level (including ATC), just learn and use English like you learn other units specific to aviation.

[Bob Lorentz]

As always, there are 2 sides to this story but something that always annoys me in Spain is the lack of SA, and bad English.
While the French/English thing is not optimum, agreed, the French have outstanding SA and are able to talk good English even when they have an accent.
In Spain, the centre controllers are barely OK, but most approach controllers are just horrible. Recently for decent planning:
"XXX Can we expect the full procedure or a 6 mile final ?"
"Station calling ?"
Repeated more slowly ...
"Hello, calling for weather ?"
"Disregard"

:confused:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

As a French speaker, I'm going to tootle around next Saturday in my little pond-hopper and speak French around the circuit, as after all it is an ICAO language. Let us see how much chaos that causes, and how much trouble it gets me in.

Utterly ludicrous stance by the French.

[FLEXPWR]

An interesting link about ICAO language timeline since the 50's.

Aviation English, A History of - AviationKnowledge (http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:aviation-english-a-history-of)

[flydive1]

As a French speaker, I'm going to tootle around next Saturday in my little pond-hopper and speak French around the circuit, as after all it is an ICAO language. Let us see how much chaos that causes, and how much trouble it gets me in.

Well, if you do it at a French airport you should be ok.
If you want to do it in Manchester, then you are not allowed, but you can use the local language: English.

Exactly like you can use Italian in Italy, Spanish in Spain, German in Germany and so on.

Local language or English, as per ICAO

[jmmoric]

Here we use english for all IFR flights, and danish for VFR if initiated by the pilot.

Often most VFR pilots will use english anyway, and for the normal daily routine we're never really experiencing any problems.

Sure a few "not so well" english speakers come by now and then. They're allowed to be here as well, and I don't mind helping them if need be by speaking slower/more clearly/staying away from non-standard.

Wonder how you manage to keep track of who speaks what langauge in a bilingual airspace? And I could see problems if you had to deliver a message rapidly, avoiding action as an example, and in the heat of the moment lost track of who spoke what langauge?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

So I can speak English in England, English in France, French in France, but not French in England ? Spot the small problem!

[flydive1]

So I can speak English in England, English in France, French in France, but not French in England ? Spot the small problem!

No, I do not spot any problem.

As the rules say, you can use either the country's official language or English.

In England you can either use English or English.

Have England to change the official language to French and then you will be able to use it doing circuits.

Easy

[Hotel Tango]

I have noted that, presumably because of their mixed nationalities Vueling Airlines (Spain) crew do all their r/t in Spain in English, including the Spanish pilots. No attempt by ATC to speak to them in Spanish either.

[Squawk7777]

I was accused here of a lazy response, one thing that is very definitely a lazy (and totally unsubstantiated) claim is that making English a single language for R/T communications is arrogant and pompous. Any way you can back that up? Or is it a lazy and easy defence against the FACT that many in the industry are lacking the required standard in English Language Proficiency?

I dare you! Post this in the Latin America and Caribbean forum and see what replies you get!

Oddly (not), the use of English R/T only is mainly supported by monoglots and it is usually directed at France. Another way to vent one's francophobia. Those people demanding English R/T only simply (want to) ignore that English is NOT the only language used. Those claiming safety ignore facts posted by ATC Watcher and like to point out the accident at CDG. Once again, the crew did NOT maintain sterile cockpit. Doesn't matter if it is in English-only and dual language airspace. The report on the accident in Yugoslavia also pointed out that one of the BEA crew members was working on a crossword puzzle. But it is always easy to point the finger at ... France.

Finally, here's some food for thought that hardly anybody likes to comment on:

1. Eyes - you should have two. If something doesn't look right, act. Don't wait for ATC to tell you what to do.
2. TCAS - gives you situational awareness in the air and on the ground. Should make this hate-thread obsolete.
3. Military aircraft - usually on UHF and in the same airspace. You won't hear a beep.
4. Multiple frequencies - even in English-only R/T environment you do not have the entire picture.
5. Monitoring frequencies and situational awareness - Since this is one of my pet peeves, I have watched F/O to training captains when I flew contract in the UK. Even the biggest defender of English-only R/T did not monitor or cared to monitor ATC for situational awareness (in UK airspace), but were very judgmental on those frogs when crossing the channel.
6. The CAA term "provided the risk is low" - There are no studies suggesting permanent higher risk due to dual language ATC.
7. Act professionally - Keep 1-5 in mind when you fly into foreign airspace, adjust accordingly and accept that things can be different not worse in other countries. If you can't, well don't fly internationally.

[bobwi]

And so do many of the Air Europas. In Madrid you here more English - English among Spanish controllers and pilots.

[WingNut60]

How does this work in countries with more than one official language?

Canada ? English & French - not too bad I'd guess, just more of the same argument as above.

Kazakhstan ? Russian & Kazakh but no English (officially) - or does eastern bloc not count?

[ehwatezedoing]

In Quebec or Ottawa area, ATC is bilingual. They will reply in whatever Language you started your com with.
To keep track of who's speaking what, for the French one they will highlight their flight progress strip in yellow.

While I'm pro English on RT, I had few instances where reverting to local language (French) in unusual situations greatly raised safety while shortening the amount of talking and misunderstanding.
This was in Algeria and Mali for instance.

You cannot expect to hear perfect English in every corner of the globe.
Same, you cannot expect to speak every language of everyplace you will end up flying.

And Plastic787 while your example of situation awareness is admirable and certaily saved the day (united 1448) a common language didn't for this one.
US Air flight 1493 ground collision with a metroliner in LA (http://http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR91-08.pdf)

[flydive1]

How does this work in countries with more than one official language?

Canada ? English & French - not too bad I'd guess, just more of the same argument as above.

Kazakhstan ? Russian & Kazakh but no English (officially) - or does eastern bloc not count?

Kazkhstan, I do not know, but yes English(again is local + English language) and probably Russian.

Canada, as ehwatezedoing wrote, English, + French in Quebec and Ottawa.

Switzerland, English + Italian in the south, English + German in the North and English + French in the west.

Other countries more of the same.

[Hotel Tango]

And Plastic787 while your example of situation awareness is admirable and certaily saved the day (united 1448) a common language didn't for this one.
US Air flight 1493 ground collision with a metroliner in LA

I already mentioned that one to him/her and got flamed by him/her for it. He/she doesn't seem to care much for others' opinions.

[Plastic787]

Because it's a total red herring that's why. Trying to argue that - because in one instance one crew did not have good situational awareness - means we can extrapolate from that that we needn't bother to provide crews with all the best tools in order to heighten their SA (a single language is certainly one) is complete and utter garbage.

[ehwatezedoing]

Yes, you are right.

Thing is, if this particular accident (US Air ground collision in LA) had happen in a bilingual airport, it would be shoved down our throat that single language RT would have saved the day.
And it did not...Not at all.

[hec7or]

The point being made is that a single language is not a tool to better SA as it increases the risk of misunderstanding between Ground Stations and crews who share a common local language.

This is why ICAO continue to mandate the primary language to be used is that of the Ground Station, with english when requested.

[Hotel Tango]

ehwatezedoing, exactly what my point was all along. Plastic's argument is that single language improves SA, I'm just saying not necessarilly so. I have been in FDs where SA took a surprising back seat regardless of language.

[HundredPercentPlease]

hec7tor,

That's true. But the risk is not as great as when all communications are deliberately obscured by unnecessarily switching to a completely unintelligible language for everyone else. Every time.

One is a tiny and rare risk. The other is a huge and omnipresent risk. Geddit?

A German aircraft and a French aircraft fly together all the way across Europe to CDG. All the way, all comms is done in perfect English.

As soon as you switch to CDG, the French controller and the French aircraft speak French, and the French controller and the German aircraft speak perfect English. Now the French and German aircraft cannot understand the instructions between the other parties - purely because of French pride. NOTHING ELSE.

National pride before safety of pax is not acceptable in modern aviation, however proud you are. That's the point.

The Dutch have it about right. Any chat at Schipol is done in Dutch. But all safety critical comms (clearances and so on) are done in perfect English.

[flydive1]

What is your situational awareness regarding the tens of aircraft around you that you cannot even hear because on a different frequency?

Ground, tower(sometimes more than one), approach, radar, military, etc. All aircraft that could be "few" feet from you and do not even hear.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Flydive,

Missed the point again.

Yes, it might be better to know movements further away than those in your immediate surroundings.

But that does not justify the deliberate and unnecessary removal of SA concerning those near to you by deliberately and unnecessarily speaking a local language when both parties are quite capable of speaking good English.

It's a pathetic argument (to deliberately diminish safety just because something unrelated may be less than perfect), just bolstering the opinion that it's all driven by national pride.

There's no excuse.

[hec7or]

But a French controller at CDG wouldn't try talking to a UK reg in French nor to a D reg in German, English would be the best option, even though ICAO Annex 10 Vol 11 para 5.2.1.2 stipulates French, with English on request.

What you are trying to balance here is an improvement in SA for aircraft on the same frequency against an increased risk of misunderstanding between local language speakers where in the event that an instruction to a particular aircraft needs to be given quickly and accurately it is better done in the local language rather than translated twice.

eg. an immediate instruction to prevent an accident or incident, while nice for others to understand, would be better for the crew to which it is addressed to be clear and unambiguous and in the language that both they and the controller understand best.

[Self Loading Freight]

This 'debate' has been going on at least for as long as I've had an outsider's interest in aviation. I doubt the industry has the discipline to resolve it.

Which means it will be resolved by other means. To this outsider, it looks like yet another really good argument in favour of full automation and the removal of humans from the flight deck and the ATC console. Computers may speak many different languages, but they've at least learned to communicate with each other in just the one.

[Plastic787]

And good luck with that considering it is far cheaper to maintain the current infrastructure than design and introduce a totally new fully automated one and will be for a quite considerable number of years. More than we need to worry about. But anyway, that's the thread drifting away.

[hec7or]

To this outsider, it looks like yet another really good argument in favour of full automation and the removal of humans from the flight deck and the ATC console.

would this not also result in the mass removal of humans from the passenger cabin?:)

[HundredPercentPlease]

eg. an immediate instruction to prevent an accident or incident, while nice for others to understand, would be better for the crew to which it is addressed to be clear and unambiguous and in the language that both they and the controller understand best.

No hec7or, it wouldn't.

I was involved in a nasty air miss in Spain. For some reason, the approach controller shouted in English at the Spanish aircraft, with a panic in his voice I'll never forget, to make a rapid turn to the right. We were watching the TCAS and became visual with this head-on aircraft at the same time. I was able to start my right turn just before the "BREAK BREAK xxx turn right TURN RIGHT" instruction.

Now, I know a Frenchman will say "but you have TCAS", but that's not the attitude in aviation. Except, clearly, in France (and there were a/c above and below).

I know ICAO says that it's legal to use French. We are just discussing the safest option - something that nearly every other state has come to a different conclusion than the French have. Maybe as soon as the AF arrives in the Cardiff zone, all the other local aircraft should switch to Welsh so the AF doesn't have a clue what's going on. And if someone gets killed, and the report says we should consider not doing that, then we'll just shrug our shoulders and state that ICAO allows us to use the beautiful Welsh language, and the French can just go away and learn Welsh if they want to be safe.

SLF,

Yes. But you can rest assured that the French will not subscribe to such a scheme unless there will be a FRENCH button and all input/output will be in French. There will never be concord(e) with their approach.

[hec7or]

100%please

Clearly a situation where knowing what the other guy is going to do will increase the probability of a safe outcome, but why would ICAO stick to the status quo?

My guess is that they still consider it more expedient in a case such as your own for the Spanish controller to use Spanish to an EC reg, as do I.

FWIW, my last airprox involved a lack of co ordination between 2 APP controllers in the UK, both talking English, just not to one another.

ICAO even mandates for States who do not use the National language by requiring them to agree a language for aeronautical use, so in Wales you would be talking English as that is the language required to be spoken by the ground station for aeronautical communications.

Glad you lived to tell the tale!

[His dudeness]

But a French controller at CDG wouldn't try talking to a UK reg in French nor to a D reg in German, English would be the best option, even though ICAO Annex 10 Vol 11 para 5.2.1.2 stipulates French, with English on request.

I´ve been adressed in french more than once around Paris in D-Reg airplanes. When things get hectic - as they sometimes do in this very busy airspace - the switching between languages puts more strain on the controllers than necessary.

I would guess that most non-native english speakers (myself included) find english very easy to use especially when used properly in aviation. And it is definetaley easier to learn than french - I´ve tried to learn both.

[HundredPercentPlease]

but why would ICAO stick to the status quo?

Dunno. But I have an idea.

Why in major international events, especially ones televised around the world, do all spokespeople chose to use English, with the exception of the French (and this ranges from the PM down to the Eurovision points announcer) who just blast out in French as if it were some kind of sin, or removal of national right, to use the language only the French consider as the international language.

I suspect lobbying.

But it doesn't matter. The Germans could do the same thing, but they don't. The Dutch could do the same thing, but they don't. Even the Turks, Greeks and Egyptians put safety first, and use English. It's not a problem so long as the use of the language is proficient - and if it's good enough for an emergency in English (which it has to be) then it's good enough to use all the time.

Only the French search around for excuses to ignore this blatant fact, and it's increasing risk unnecessarily. Everyone else sees that - but they refuse to open their eyes.

Tragic, especially when it has already caused (according to the report, already quoted in this thread) fatalities.

My only hope lies in the example of the AF (French) Captain who shouted at the controller to use English, since they were in an emergency/Mayday condition. At least there are some pilots out there who understand.

[FLEXPWR]

Below is an extract of an audit done in France by or on behalf of the Ministry of Transports and the French DGAC, to assess the quality of training of pilots in France:

Etude de la formation aéronautique professionnelle des pilotes en France
Air France Consulting, Avico, BT Consulting & SI
Date: 25 janvier 2005
Page 96 / 98
En revanche, le manque d’implication de l’ensemble des acteurs de la formation
aéronautique française dans un cursus en langue anglaise constitue un écueil majeur pour
le développement des écoles (voire à terme pour leur survie). En effet, cette lacune bride
aussi largement l’attrait des écoles françaises pour les stagiaires étrangers que les
débouchés étrangers pour les stagiaires français.
On pourrait également noter que la faible maîtrise de la langue anglaise par certains pilotes suscite
des problèmes pour les compagnies aériennes françaises, tant sur le plan de l’exploitation qu’en
terme de sécurité des vols.
Une inversion de la tendance actuelle est ardue, car aussi bien les élèves pilotes que les écoles et
la tutelle partagent la responsabilité de ces lacunes :
• Nombre d’élèves pilotes n’ont pas un niveau d’anglais conversationnel à leur entrée dans les
écoles en phase avec les attentes de leurs futurs employeurs, qu’il soit étrangers ou français

Underlined (by me) in the quote is an interesting sentence, which roughly translates to: "It can also be noted that the weakness in mastering the English language by some pilots can generate problems for French airlines, be it on the aspects of flight operations, but also in terms of flight safety."

A few lines below: "Upon joining the training schools, numerous student pilots do not have the conversational level of English that is required by their future employers, be it French or foreign" (it's unclear if they talk about the future employers, as there seems to be some grammar mismatch.)

This report was published in 2005. It's not so long ago, but sure feels nothing has changed since... We can still keep our eyes closed and pretend that the issue is only a matter of pride because of the right to use French in France, but the strong underlying reason seems that many French pilots do not have the level required for conversational English, regardless of whatever ICAO ELP that can be shown on their licence. It has been an ever-existing problem in the French education system, that relies strongly on a maximum of theory and minimum practice. In other words, you can find in France some English language "experts", they will know all the irregular verbs and the grammar rules, but their actual level of conversational English will be below par.

As was mentioned on previous posts, but in different words: If the French had a high level of proficiency in the English language, it should not be an issue to use it.

Now I'll go down in flames....:}

[captplaystation]

Having lived 12 years of my life in France & having 2 kids with a French mother, I see no reason to contradict anything you have said. Not Anti-French (obviously, as it is my kids nationality) but likewise cannot disagree with what you have said.

[Uncle Fred]

FLXPWR

It has been an ever-existing problem in the French education system, that relies strongly on a maximum of theory and minimum practice.

It reminds me of that joke about a meeting of French governmental officials who were pondering a problem. "Alors" said one of them. "This works great in practice but does it work in theory?"

[captplaystation]

Uncle Fred,

That is just about it.

When asked to describe how French people are different, I always say, most races spend time & effort to simplify the things in life that are complicated, the French however, appear to go to great lengths to complicate the simple.

Cruel ? I don't know, but just as much truth as irony there

[GLuis103]

Fat chance that this long overdue safety initiative will ever get traction!

Dream on, whatever next? The Yanks using correct ICAO R/T phraseology, discipline and order within Spanish ATC, cheap fuel in Italy, ramp agents in Brazil that you can trust, CAKOK in Beijing?

I guess you´re right !
More on a serious note, I honestly think that it will take quite some time for Spanish pilots/atc to understand each other when both are speaking English, unfortunately. Although this would help other pilots, monitoring the same freq, that don´t speak, neither understand Spanish. I imagine some pilots probably get a bit 'lost' traffic wise when approaching Spanish airports.
As for Franch, like it has been said, I reckon they wouldn´t take this so easily.

[Bidule]

I may appreciate your concerns about Spanish and French using their own languages. Both are ICAO languages and you have to accept this fact; moreover Spanish is now the language most spoken in the USA!:rolleyes:
But why not a word on the Russians, as they also use their own (and ICAO) language?

[skyblue738]

Some Spanish airlines, in the past, required their pilots to speak only English, like Spanair, but it has never been very common.

But I don't think pilots would agree with this measure. In some airlines, like Iberia, even the checklists, the plates, and other documents are written in Spanish.

[Clear_Prop]

This debate always descends in perpetual circles of pointless tail-chasing because people fail to see the bigger picture; or to let go of their patronage of whichever language is their mother tongue.

But the simple fact is this: After we've finished winning the debate that the international language of aviation radiotelephony is English - we need to admit that it isn't actually English is it?

You heard me.

We do NOT use English as the international language of radiotelephony. We use a very simplified and restricted vocabulary of around 150 simple words, many of which have roots in the English Language, as well as some from other languages. But its not "English".

Every pilot has to LEARN the language of radiotelephony before they can use it. English speaking pilots have to learn the aviation vocabulary just like anyone else.

It's inexcusable for people to keep inventing reasons to justify why they should use some other language instead. We only have one sky and we can only keep it safe if we understand each other, because situational awareness is crucial to safety.

[fox niner]

Based on my broad experience of flying around french airspace,I would like to add the following sobering, stunning observation....

The french are fully aware that using english only during RT comms will increase air safety considerably. But they will never give up their right to use the french language, because this small safety sacrifice always will prevail over their national pride.
Safety is not sooooo important as francophony.

[Ivato]

I agree, the French are convinced that Clément Ader invented the plane, that they made the first flight, that Nungesser and Coli were the first to cross the Atlantic by plane, and that Airbus is the French biggest aircraft producer in the world.
The misunderstanding is that English has never been accepted to replace local official languages, it is just recognized as the official language for international flights. It would be impossible to impose another language to French people as it is forbidden by their law and you would get a riot from 40000 local pilots who do not want to learn English to fly in their airspace (+most of african and East Canadian airspaces...).
English is just tolerated on the French frequencies for pilots coming from abroad who did no yet learn the French poetic aeronautical language, they are tolerated and cannot ask for more.

Many posts were about French but we could go on in the same way with Russian language on Russian frequencies (with the same national pride and aeronautical superiority: Gagarine + spoutnik...) or Chinese language on Chinese frequencies.

Chinese could expect all of us to switch to Chinese language within a decade as they are becoming the biggest airline market, and purchasing all our aeronautical companies... I don't know how many pilots will accept to learn Chinese to fly safely around Duxford or Wichita. ;)

[Heliarctic]

What can become a bit old hat on pprune is the usual "France bashing".
Yes we all know that english is the official aviation language, but the rather snotty way some, i said some british or indeed other english speaking countries go about this is tiring to listen to.
People not fluent in english are often mocked or looked down upon, conveniently forgetting the fact that they themselves often are monolingual.

Yes in an ideal world we would all be speaking one language, but that would take away so much of the richness languages have in them. This often not seen by monolinguists.

And lets be honest here, aircraft aren't exactly flying into one another on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis in these countries.
More pressing matters need to be adressed in aviation in my mind.

[goc]

Many years ago I flew Dash 8 for Air Canada Jazz, based in Montreal. Flying into small northern Quebec airports always made me uneasy. Joining the traffic pattern, either ifr or vfr, we would make our freq reports in english(capt and fo only english speaking). A number of Beechcraft, Navajos coming in at the same time speaking only French, and it being only a radio controlled airport made for some interesting times. Radio operator would give us only the basic info in english but aircraft flying in the area were supposed to keep separation from each other. I can only assume the French speaking aircraft worked it out to keep separation from us English speakers. Needles to say our situational awareness wasn't the greatest. But in my short time there, there were no near misses so I suppose it makes speaking French on freq ok;)

[Jet Jockey A4]

Whenever I fly in Quebec (or France) I use French as the primary language (my choice).

However when I fly into and uncontrolled airport in Quebec and I hear both languages being used on the frequency then I do all my coms in both languages so that all parties understand the message clearly.

I'll add the following... I believe most commercial pilots that fly mainly in Quebec also understand English and probably knew and understood everything you said on the radio.

[goc]

I'm sure they understood english, but they didn't use it. Their choice. Now I feel much better that THEY knew what was going on. Both of us were from YVR area. Beside the canned fom pax French briefing, our French was more of a cursing, girl pick up kind.