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walter kennedy
10th Jun 2014, 16:26
MOK Chinook 20 yrs on
In all this time there has been little free and open discussion as to the navigation detail – perhaps it was that nothing further should be brought to light that could prejudice the objective of clearing the pilots’ names.

Well, you have passed that point now and operations in that area should have changed enough by now to avoid being compromised by some more consideration of what they were doing near the Mull – specifically the last 20s of the flight – after all, the conclusions of the Philip inquiry were rather open.

I will kick things off with a summary of the analysis that shows that they were in control and making good an intended track that had nothing to do with route nav but made sense for a common local activity:

they had made a bee line the whole way across towards a waypoint on the Mull but only about half a mile short they changed that waypoint in the nav computer to one 80 miles away;

they did not turn left as would have been desirable for getting on with their route but turned right a substantial amount;

the handling pilot would have had the desired track on his HSI course selector to steer by and this found to be consistent with a straight line from the position that the waypoint was changed to the point of initial impact, indicating an immediate and intentional right turn on changing waypoint;

further, to have maintained that track over ground, they would have had to steer into the wind a significant amount (7 deg) – it happened that both pilots’ HSIs’ compass cards were jammed at first impact at the same bearing and this was 7 deg right (into the wind) of the course selector setting, which was the desired track over the surface and which was made good all the way to the position of first impact – this shows effort in keeping to a particular track;

this makes any suggestion of control problems irrational;

the explanation of the significance of that heading is as follows: in 1996 I stood overlooking the site with one of the lighthouse keepers when a helicopter approached from seaward and swung around the lighthouse in a large arc; he indicated the alignment between the “green triangle” (a level area used, according to locals, as a landing spot in the past and by which was waypoint A that had been in the nav computer until changed before the right turn) and a large prominent rock just out to sea; he said that they “always” turned there when approaching the lighthouse; the alignment of that rock and the “green triangle”/waypoint A is the same as the track that they had selected and made good; later I superimposed the turning arcs of a Chinook at cruise speedat 30 and 60 deg angles of bank on a digitised map, starting on the bearing that was the track that they made good and it turns out that this was the ideal line up for starting a manoeuvre to swing around the lighthouse (as though it was the axis), well clear of the high ground, provided that they commenced the turn as they reached the rock, “green triangle”, or waypoint A – even if they missed such a crossing point the topography was such that they would still have been safe making the turn providing that it was initiated immediately that they crossed the shoreline, left or right of the exact aiming point;

the shoreline should have been visible (in the local conditions that day at that level) to MALM Forbes had he been at his window seat – had he been at this position and lost sight of the sea, say due to mist or crossing onto land, they should not have persisted with their intended approach – but he was found to not have been at the window seat but on the jump seat behind the pilots; the handling pilot would have been concentrating on flying the craft and on keeping it on course as directed by the navigator (and possibly equally by MALM Forbes) as there were no visual aiming points ahead; waypoint A was no longer selected in the nav computer and in any case the STANS back then would not/should not have been relied upon; Flt Lt Tapper and MALM Forbes must have been relying upon some other reference;

if for whatever reason the use of that reference misled them and they overran the land, with no clear visual cues ahead, they could have become (in a psychological sense) spatially disoriented – in the experience of both civil and military aviation there is a significant reaction time from the onset/realisation of being disoriented to getting re-orientated again and/or taking the appropriate action, and this has been found to be from 8 to 18 seconds – from crossing the shoreline where they did to initial impact was about 9secs.

Cows getting bigger
10th Jun 2014, 17:29
I thought this one had been well and truly put to bed.

dervish
10th Jun 2014, 18:08
I don’t know about anyone else but I found that very difficult to read. Hit the return key now and again.


after all, the conclusions of the Philip inquiry were rather open.

Lord Phillip’s job wasn’t to establish what happened. When it came to the important thing, the aircraft not being airworthy, he fingered ACAS fairly and squarely. MoD rolled over.


I can’t even begin to argue for or against the rest of what you say although one thing springs to mind. When you discuss what MALM Forbes was doing, do you know if it was he who carried out the checks of the debris screens (every 5 mins) and fuel computer connectors (every 15 mins)?


and in any case the STANS back then would not/should not have been relied upon

Nor, confirmed by Phillip, the entire aircraft! And that’s what makes all your speculation a bit academic. The previous threads never sought to establish what happened, only to uncover sufficient evidence to clear the pilots. Job done. With this new thread are you inviting speculation as to what happened?

1.3VStall
10th Jun 2014, 19:13
Mods,

Could you please get rid of this thread?

Most sensible people now have a well-informed opinion on the subject after years of debate and to let WK start another round of ill-informed speculation would be totally counter productive.

kintyred
10th Jun 2014, 22:21
I for one am very happy for any plausible theories to be put forward regarding the final minutes of some very good friends of mine. I think we are agreed that they were not negligent, reckless or stupid. They clearly thought they knew what they were doing. Hands up all those who have completed their flying careers without ever once having experienced that "hmmm, that wasn't quite what I expected...but at least I got away with it". I think that it is useful to be reminded that aviation can be an unforgiving profession. We'll never know what happened - the original BOI is an incredibly thorough document - but continuing to discuss events is perfectly understandable. I'd love to know what happened that summer's evening....it haunted my flying career for nearly twenty years. If my friends' memories are kept alive by threads such as this then I think that is a good thing.

Cows getting bigger
11th Jun 2014, 05:12
Kintyred, we probably stood close to each other at at a few funerals two decades ago but I sort if disagree with you.

There are many accidents whereby the cause cannot be positively determined and the Mull Chinook should have fallen into this category at an early stage. Many very intelligent people spent a very long time casting doubt over the assertions of the MOD, thus removing the clearly wrong accusation of Gross Negligence whilst also uncovering an unpalatable airworthiness issue which may still have some wider relevance (Haddon Cave, MAA etc).

I'm not sure we will ever know what truly happened, be this control restrictions, FADEC runaways, little green men from Mars or Walter's favourite involving some form of special task/intentional external interference. The memories are there and I don't think they need refreshing by renewed speculation.

dervish
11th Jun 2014, 05:47
CGB

Don't forget the self styled aviation expert who "knows" everyone was shot and the assassin parachuted to safety before impact. Looks like he gave his evidence to Lord Phillip. Wonder why he never used it?

RAF Chinook crash: 29 shot through the head! (http://www.vijayvaani.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?aid=1813)

The Old Fat One
12th Jun 2014, 16:10
I think we are agreed that they were not negligent, reckless or stupid.

As professional aviators we should be agreed on one thing alone.

We don't know with absolute certainty the cause of this accident.

As intelligent human beings we should agree that the original incorrect verdict was (eventually) correctly put right.

And as decent human beings we should ignore this thread and let it die.

Which I will from now on.

Heathrow Harry
12th Jun 2014, 17:44
here here:ok:

seadrills
12th Jun 2014, 22:11
We're they in IMC and below the safety altitude?