RAF Commission

[flch10000]

My brother is thinking of entering the RAF, he's 22 years old and just finished an Aeronautical Engineering Masters Degree at a Good Uni, he also will be finishing his PPL soon.

He has mentioned to me that he specifically does not want to be commissioned and would prefer to enter "from the bottom" (his words).

Is this realistic? I understand he primarily wants to join the Engineering branch - as (I assume) a SAC initially, and if he enjoys it will apply for a commission and the (associated) responsibility.

Personally I think he's a lunatic - but any advice will be gratefully passed on to him.

Cheers

[opso]

Unless he wants to stay stuck in the ranks with very slow promotion chances, DO NOT DO IT! It is much, much, much harder to get commissioned from the ranks than it is from walking in off the streets. The recruiters will overplay the possiblity of later commission as it gets them another pink body through the door. They are right - it can be done, but I can win the lottery. It's just not very likely.

[Klingon]

Does he vote labour?
Is he mad?
Was he dropped on his head at birth?
Frightened by the Masters horses prhaps?
Is he really your brother?
Why has he being frigging about at university then?
Does he know what a prick he is?:confused:

For gawds sake, if he does get his way dont let him tell the rest of the boys he's serving with about his background cos they wont be impressed by his antics. :cool:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Silly sod - why do all that effort to not get a bit more money, better accommodation, better promotion etc - a blinkin waste - there are a lot of excellent airmen, but if they had a degree etc, many of them would go higher if they had the choice.

V blinkered view he has.

[Talking Radalt]

...and now the other side of the coin.
I say well done to your bro' for having some morals about himself. There are far, far too many young officers kicking around who think they are living in the 1920s, when the rank structure reflected the class one.
Wakey, wakey, pink-gin-drinking, Morgan-driving, labrador-walking Wooperts everywhere...There is an increasing number of post-Graduate servicemen in trades on the ground and in the air, and the depth of knowledge and level of expertise in many technical trades is equal to if not greater than that of sky-god. Trouble is too few of the self-proclaimed "leaders" can be bothered to find out, choosing instead to spend their time telling the rest of the known universe how great they are themselves. Believe it or not, most airmen/women are happy where they are and often shy away from commissioning due to large numbers of self important twerps who are, in actual fact, a liability to themselves and others and an embarrasment to the Service at large.
As far as I can tell getting commissioned from the ranks is now on a par with entering direct, largely due to the scrapping of the notorious "Station Board", withdrawn for the very reason it was seen as an extra and thus unfair hurdle.
I actually admire the individual at the root of this thread for following the concept of not judging a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Even if they aren't a pair of stout brogues with matching Barbour jacket.
:rolleyes:

[MilOps]

I too will side side with the subject of this thread. Talking Radalt has summed up quite well the shift in attitudes of todays service folk. I have personally had working for me SACs with good degrees in a variety of disciplines, one in particular had a PhD as an SAC but would shy away from any references to it. When counselled about their aspirations all unhesitatingly declined any commissioning opportunities, for reasons various.

Not all are as enamoured with the commission as some would have us believe. Its value in life is questionable, the majority of the people who are commissioned are conceited, avericious, pompous and self serving. Too few have the moral courage of their convictions, following instead the line of least resistance to safeguard themselves; they do not have the best interests of the Service at heart!

If this young man wishes to apply as an SAC Technician working on the shop floor, then bl**dy good luck to him, if subsequently he chooses to take a commission, then he will be far better placed and will command far more respect from his troops, FACT gentlemen. You are not in any position to lead until you have walked their road.

Oh and by the way OpsO your statement is in direct contravention of employment law and current EO policy, I recommend you read AP3392 Vol 4 Leaflets 1803 and 1806. If, as you imply, this IS true then the RAF will soon find itself in court for discrimination.

[Chinese Vic]

Well, having "been there, done it, got the t-shirt" I would recommend that if he wants to join the RAF with the aim of becoming an officer in the future, then why waste time? Go for it from the off - your abilities, experience and seniority as an officer is what counts towards your pay, promotion and pension rather than anything you did as an airman. My trade (more particularly my specialisation during my later years) as an airman is fairly applicable to my officer Branch, but other than it being useful experience, it actually counts for very little. Other than, of course, the odd compliment from one of the troops about 'doing it
the hard way' and the (more common) semi-derisory comment from my peers about being an "ex-hairy" - a term used most commonly around the RAFC which I find completely and utterly offensive.
Commissioning from the ranks is easier now than it was a few years ago. Talking Radalt has it exactly right in that the old Station Board did make it more difficult to gain a commission than if you walked right into the Careers Office from civvy street. However, about 94/95 this was changed, and the system for airmen now reflects civilian entry procedures.

I would have to point out that as an officer my quality of life has tended to be much better, and often you have the ability to decide for yourself what course of action to take in a given situation and take responsibility for your actions and those of your suborbinates - something an SAC technician is not able to do.

During one of my JO tours I had responsibility for a fairly sizeable team of S & JNCOs, all of which were more highly qualified than I was. Most of them had degrees or HNDs, a lot of them were on day-release with local colleges and their collective expertise in the field was awesome. However, regardless of your qualifications or expertise, as an officer you are there to lead and to utilise your team's strengths in the best way to achieve the aim so I have to disagree with MilOps - you don't have to be the expert to be be the Boss, but you DO have to make sure you take the experts' advice on board!

CV

[SixOfTheBest]

I've never heard of such bad advice. Talking Radalt and MilOps.....Get a LIFE! The world doesn't give you a nice big pat on the back and a 'Well Done Sonny' for taking twenty years to achieve something when you coud have done it in half the time. What on earth are you thinking? You know, I once thought about embarking on a career as a roadsweeper with the ultimate aim of becoming Prime Minister....nay....future King of England. The plan was like this. I'd spend two years sweeping roads, after which i'd become a supervising sweeper. Then, after another couple of years i'd hopefully run the whole town sweeping operation. By now i'd be fairly well known, so i'd switch career and become a councillor. A few years at that, MP and then on and up.......

Ignore these Boll*x suggestions. There are no prizes for being a T%at. Use your Masters as springboard to greater things.

Rant Over

[spectre150]

Generalizations of the Century - the winner is......

'the majority of the people who are commissioned are conceited, avericious, pompous and self serving. Too few have the moral courage of their convictions, following instead the line of least resistance to safeguard themselves; they do not have the best interests of the Service at heart'

Shame an interesting thread is spoilt by such tosh.

[J.A.F.O.]

Let the boy do whatever he wants with his life, even if it is the most stupid, horrendous mistake. He will then be able to be proud of all the years he has completely wasted, all the money he has never earned and all the pension that he doesn't have.

Do everything you can to save your brother from himself and his youthful, misguided and idiotic choices.

Never judge a man until you walked a mile in his shoes, by then it won't matter, you'll be a mile away and you'll have his shoes.

[Lucifer]

For all the good attributes that somebody who desires to have experience from the uncommissioned side may have, the phrase not making the best use of abilities comes to mind.

Come to think of it - WHY DID THE TAXPAYER BOTHER TO WASTE MONEY ON HIS EDUCATION if that is what he intends to do with it. If he does it, he is letting himself and everyone else down, and has taken a place a university for somebody who would have made better bloody use of it than him.

Frankly there is a great deal of rubbish above - neither group is better than the other as both must work together to make the operation work, and a degree is cetainly not the reserve of those at the top ecelons. However, his seeming good intentions are thoroughly misguided. Give him a good kicking - (that's what I do to my brother!)

[keiysersaucy]

my advice to him is go get a proper job where his human rights and freedom of speech are not abused by high ranks looking for their next promotion. ALL people I Know who have the sevices do not regret leaving. Cut out the middle bit. Don't bother joining in the first place:(

[Talking Radalt]

OK to put it another way how many "reasonably good" officers would be brilliant ones for the sake of say, just three years insight in to the working life of those he expects to lead in later life?
All too often I have seen some bloody nice chaps alienate themselves from the workforce they supposedly command and to whom they could have been so much closer, simply for failing to realise and accept that in today's forces being non-commisioned doesn't mean you left one of those "modern" comprehensive schools at 16 with CSEs in French and pottery, grew up in a tennament and have mutton instead of lamb on Sundays. And nor does it mean you have no ambition, loyalty or drive.
It is ironic that most of the above posts from the commissioned bretheren refer to money, self-gratification and the need or desire for recognition from others. Also they all refer to time spent un-commissioned as "wasted". In that case the non-commissioned crowd are stilll better off as they are getting paid (admittedly less than the Os) for wasting their time! Yippee!
And annuver fing...I know of some JOs who can't even define any rank structure or career plan other than their own, whilst others have to ask if a Junior Technician is senior to a Senior aircraftsman. OK so they might have dinner served to them by SACs but who looks the most ignorant?
;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear oh dear oh dear. The class system is being exposed here for what it truely is, as i'ts as easy to spot the baldricks as it is the royals . However, baldrick here, what stands out like a dogs bo@@ocks is the "avericious" advice being offered by by those who should, apparently, know better. Admittedly there is a fair bit of "chipped" advice on offer as well.

In all the gems offered there is hardly a mention of aspiring to greatness, looking for new challenges, the chance to make a difference or just being a bloody good officer. Sirs you should know better. However there is a constant referance to pay, pensions, accomodation and the overall superior life style of the average rodney compared with his airman counter part. So what signal does this send to us mere mortals about the mindset of of our lords and masters.

However probably the best advice on offer is from keiysersaucy
........ don't do it. Take your educational skills elsewhere and have a proper life.

After 28 years service, from LAC to FS as both aircraft techie and ALM I am sad to say that I would not sign the paperwork for my son to join what has in my opinion becombe a "disney attraction", a very sad indictment.

I look back rather wearily at my time and all the crap purchases that have been thrust upon us by.......royals, tell me the last load of boll@@s an airman purchased!!, and wonder just how understanding Mr Branson would have been of such continual wasteage, if only the taxpayer knew.

Six of the best.......an airman is a tw@t? you really are an upper class twit!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MJ, your ID is safe!!

However I applaud your well structured "dressing down" and only wish that that I could expect to receive such a balanced reply from most of your colleagues, or is it maybe that your comments are background driven?

If you do know me then I hope you will agree that I really do not have an axe to grind. I am quite content in the knowledge that I have probably reached my rung on life’s ladder; after all we cannot all be Chiefs so you have to have a large bunch of happy Indians, and happy am I. For what I do I receive a more than respectable income, although the flying pay issues do rather confuse me, and whilst, should I choose to live in MQ's, which I don't, my house would be considerably smaller than yours I accept this as simply a part of the three tier class society we in the military live in. This manifests itself quite clearly in the fact that whilst down route the simple act of "aving a beer" in each others company is simplicity itself yet back in Wilts drinking with the knockers is not only frowned upon but bloody difficult to arrange. But don’t worry Sir as I do know my place!!

Whilst I do not agree with most of what has been said in this thread so far, by both sides of the house, I do firmly agree with KSY. The company we work for is extremely inefficient, we are led, not exclusively but predominantly, by people that we have little respect for, and we are all asked on a daily basis to work with equipment that is not fit for it’s purpose because of inept procurement and penny pinching cost cutting measures.

With this in mind the individual in question would do well to take his expertise into the private sector and make a go of it in the real world.

What started out for me as a great adventure all those years ago has now, rather sadly turned into nothing more than a "job" I go to work when required and do my level best at what I do but most of the desire and drive I had has evaporated. I do not believe it's a failing on my part but more a lack of leadership from those whose job it is challenge and inspire me, lately they have failed dismally. I, like so many of my colleagues, really do believe that it's the same old sh@t, day in day out as we seem to strive to advance some other fuc@!rs career.

If this sounds bitter and twisted, and I could understand if it was percieved that way, next time you are down route and you listen to your sky gods waxing lyrical. Wait for the moment when one turns to the other and comments about a flt cdr/wg cdr/staish and utters the immortal words....how did that tos@er/wan@er ever get promoted and ask yourself if I have a point.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS If you do know me feel free to take me to task at work or over a beer, if we can find somewhere to go :D

[Flap62]

Ill resist speaking for any other branch but I have to say that I'm sure that I will always look back on my time as aircrew with immense pride and satisfaction. Yes there are frustrations but anyone who tells you it isn't the best job in the world is an ar*e!
My advice to this individual is to do exactly as he wants, just don't moan about it afterwards if it doesn't go as you hope. Reading some of the replies from bitter and twisted individuals on this thread might give entirely the wrong impression. You only have to look at the cute little pet names that they've used for officers (ruperts and rodneys) to see that they have an inferiority complex that would rate with the best. Many of the airmen on sqns and units I served on were very well qualified (much more so than me) and I respected the time and effort they had put ito gaining these qualifications. Unfortnately there are certain individuals who make sweeping generalisations about the officer core which as usual reduce what might be a worthwhile discussion into the usual playground squabble.

[BEagle]

Art Field - that idiot is out of his box again! No doubt he thinks that there's no-one left in the RAF who knows what an utter to$$er he is......

[keiysersaucy]

Flap62, you may of been out of the aircrew world a while, but you may of been in around 94, 95. Bosnia? The UN set up "safe zones" for refugees hiding from the serbs. 6000 people, women and children included headed for these "safe zones". The serbs then made for these zones. The dutch UN troops in these areas were not backed up by the UN nor any other organisation and gave up these refugees to the serbs. In fact many survivors claim the dutch helped the serbs to round up the people. These poor souls were then tortured to death. The UN and all involved looked the other way. No threats, no escalation in air strikes, presumably do to money reasons. About a year later I was still doing the re supply run, when I asked a group of civvys what brought them to boz. They said they were a war crimes investigation team looking for clues as who was responsible for the masacre at Szrebinica! I suggested we divert to London as they would find a few there. It is my humble opinion that if anyone connected, even loosely, with these events considers that this is "the greatest job in the world" and that "anyone who does'nt think so is an ar*e" views the world very differently to me.

Yes, I know If that is my attitude I should walk, but I need the money and the security to never do this seedy line of work again. Yes, it does make me as bad as the people a critisise (sp?) in this post, which may explain the vehemence contained within. Flap62 may you fly high enough to see the pretty clouds, but not too low to see what is going on in the real world outside the cockpit. Why is it called that? To all --I really will try to lighten up in my replies in future

[Talking Radalt]

Yeah cheers for that.
Could you also add a degree of relevance while you're at it?:confused:

[FJJP]

I spent a 36 commissioned years in the Service and met all of the types mentioned in this thread (both commissioned and non-commissioned), from the arrogant a**holes to the best. The good SNCOs are the backbone of the Royal Air Force, and to have them on your side is the formula for success in any task. Time in the ranks is never wasted from the point of view of experience - there are many fine officers out there who know exactly what life is like for the young airmen and who look after them as if they were their own sons/daughters - not all officers are Wooperts.

However, from the highly educated individual's point of view, there are huge drawbacks. I have had a number of LAC's appear at my workplace with brains the size of planets and qualifications to die for, and witnessed their frustration at having to work through a system that works based on rank and time rather than ability; people who actively question procedures and get slapped down by their peers rather than receive the encouragement they deserve. Having trawled the fading memory banks, I can remember at least half a dozen who chucked in the towel in frustration, PVR'd and applied their qualifications to the world outside.

flch10000 - if your brother goes ahead and joins as an SAC, he will spend an increasing amount of time regretting that he chose that career path. He will become frustrated when he sees morons ahead of him progressing up the chain. He will become cheesed off at the lack of challenge in his life, frequently asking himself the classic question 'is this all that there is?'. And yes, every year in the Service will lose him commissioned time, time on much higher pay, quality of life and full time towards pension (it's all part of the equation). It will also lose him time in positions of authority, advanced engineering and management training, contact with industry, project management opportunities, opportunities to get to posts where he could make a real difference to the future of the Service, not to mention the networking opportunities to stand him in good stead when finishes his service and joins the big bad civilian world.

How can I speak with authority? My well qualified son joined the ranks despite all my arguments and advice. After 2 years he announced that he was bored with little prospect of job satisfaction in the foreseeable future and had applied for and been selected for a commission. A couple of years into his new career, over a beer, he turned to me and said 'you were right - I wish I had done this from the start'.

And he should seriously consider joining as a pilot.

Please e-mail me - I have detail not for this forum which might help your brother make his decision.

[alandhall]

Hmmmmmmm, am I to assume that RAF officers are seen in a bad light by those in 'the trades'?

I only ask as I'm off to Cranwell tommorrow and I don't want to be despised for my entire military career!

[keiysersaucy]

Talking radalt, if you read who the post was replying to and read tjat post, you might find the relevance. I AM sorry for letting real issues getting in the way of moaning about pay and conditions.

[Flap62]

I'm terribly sorry but I must be missing the point. It would appear that my years of hard work to get my little pink bottom into a jet, the subsequent years of hard work in helping my various sqns to take their place in theatres around the world have all been for nothing because of the actions of some Dutch infantryman. How worthless I now feel that it's all been for nothing. I don't know how I can look myself in the face after all those months spent on peacekeeping missions over Northern Iraq and Bosnia, when I was trying my best to carry out the mission to the best of my ability, when all I was doing was contributing to the bloodshed. Shame on all you truckie and SH mate who helped out the UN around the world - didn't you realise that because of someone elses actions, your entire professional life's work is in vain?

[Chinese Vic]

Always Broken In Wilts

I'm surprised by your altruistic view of why some of us become commissioned officers. Half of my total RAF service (15 years) was in the ranks and true enough, one of the main reasons for applying for a commission was that the challenges and responsibilities presented to me as an NCO were not enough to keep me happy.

However, considering the number of threads in this forum relating to pay/allowances/conditions/retention/DHE etc are you really surprised that some of the motivating factors for commissioning are quality of life issues?

When you consider that within the last 8 months I have completed three operational deployments in the Veritas AOR, each of just under two months - I would think I am justified in putting pay and quality of life (when in the UK) fairly near the top of my list of priorities.

CV