HKG 25R/07L high speed exits

[ClearnceClarence]

Is A/B 3 and idle reverse sufficient to make the first high speed exits off 25R (A6) and off 07R (A7).

Typical landing weights, 220T-240T on the -300ER.

[Cafe City]

Only if you're coming direct from DFW in a silver aeroplane. :}

Start Wednesday?

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Not when you're on overtime ;)

[nitpicker330]

Here's an idea......try it and find out. If the braking isn't performing to your expectations ( too much or too little ) then go the old fashioned way and PUSH THE BRAKES YOURSELF.

ATC won't get upset if you miss the first high speed exit, just don't take all day getting off.

How hard can it be for goodness sake?:D

[Steve the Pirate]

It depends. First, are you controlling the aircraft with one or two hands? Second, what's the wind? Third, if you touch down at 3000' then I would suggest the values quoted might be insufficient. :E

I suppose you could always look in the landing performance section of the FCOM or, if you fly for CX, do a "what if" using the Web Landing Data facility - that might give you a clue.

STP

[Oasis]

What's the wind?

[Arfur Dent]

You should do a 'Landing performance' ACARS calculation prior to every landing -even at your Home Base - even if nobody flying anything has ever gone off the end. What that kind of guidance generates is a reluctance to follow instructions that are silly. All the runways in HK are long enough for all types of aircraft in all types of weather so why should we do those calculations every time???

[falconeasydriver]

You can actually see the high speed exits? My retina's are normally toooo busy bouncing about in my skull on those nice smooooooth HKG runways for me to see high speed exits...

[nitpicker330]

Arfur-----maybe I misunderstand your sarcasm ......but.....really a landing performance calculation for all landings?

One could safely rest assured that if you can legally dispatch to your destination you don't need to check it out in flight again for a perfectly normal landing. ( with or without Rev )

Waste of time and energy.

Now a non-normal, contaminated runway or alternate Airfield, different matter.

If you read the FAQ section in our e-library it says:---

Arrival Planning

Aircraft serviceability is as per dispatch and arrival weather is as per forecast. No formal calculation should be required as RLD (Dispatch) > ALD (In-flight). The arrival brief should simply remark that the assessment has been carried out.

[Arfur Dent]

Nitpickman
'The assessment has been carried out' is what I'm on about. Certain STC people (not me) interpret that as actually doing the calculation with the ACARS and not just saying - 'This has been done 50,000 times before so it's OK.'

[nitpicker330]

Fair enough but they are wrong. No surprises there!

CP AB actually said the very thing in a newsletter as well.

Some STC's need to get a life. :ok:

[VR-HFX]

Nitpicker

Wasting of time and energy is something that goes on a lot more than it used to. STC's are not the only offenders.

Clarence

I must assume you lost your feet in a childhood accident. If not, try using them if the video game is not performing as you expected:sad:

[Fl00]

So to actually answer your question without any smart ass comments a flap 30 landing with auto brake 3 will normally make the first high speed. If you use flap 25 use auto brake 4 to make the first hi speed. As stated earlier Hong Kong does not space all that tightly so to make the 2nd high speed does not upset anyone.

[VR-HFX]

F100

You obviously didn't detect it was a trick question:E

[Fl00]

I must have missed something then.
cheers

[csd]

To answer the question....

In my experience, on 25R, in still air, with flap 30, the first high speed exit will require additional braking if using Autobrake 3. Personally, at that weight, I would take Autobrake 4 and disconnect early.

Regards

csd

[VR-HFX]

Excuse my flippancy...I worked out there was a typo by Clarence. 07R and A7 are not a matching pair but he had it correct in the header.

Basically it would depend on whether your assigned bay is clear and where it is on the field. Go AB3. Why stress yourself and the a/c when you probably will be held up at the bay anyway.

[Metro man]

I heard the tower controller getting stuck into the aircraft that landed ahead of me one day, for not getting off at the expected exit. Said controller explained that aircraft doing 60 kts were expected to turn off.

He may have been having a bad day or was concerned about having to order a go around.

[Blue Bag Bitch]

The real answer is who gives a flying f*ck. Just don't go off the end.

[Thunderbird4]

Not to worry if you don't make the high speed, just pull a 180 on the runway and use the 3 point turn technique to get back (as was so aptly demonstrated recently by one of CX's illustrious pilots).

[nitpicker330]

Mmmmmmmmm

Just heard about that reverse event...

Seem he no longer works for us...:oh:

[Oval3Holer]

Clarence, idle or full reverse makes f%@kall difference to the landing distance unless the runway is contaminated... :ugh:

[MACH.88]

The individual concerned does still in fact work for CX.

MACH.88:cool:

[Oasis]

Surprising.

[Thunderbird4]

Actually what is surprising is that he lost his seat given that a certain TC managed to keep his ratings after the ORD cargo fire debacle. What is worse - exceeding a limitation of the aircraft and not reporting it or skipping an item in an emergency checklist to satisfy the commercial side of the operation?

[Arfur Dent]

What is the story?

[AnAmusedReader]

No, he does not. I have it on very good authority that he has retired.

However, I agree that the case of a TC keeping his rating is of far more interest - and concern.

[nitpicker330]

Lets just say it apparently involved a three point turn on the Runway.....yes a three pointer!!

See, can be done. What would Boeing know. :}

[Oasis]

Can't agree with you thunderbird, and why compare the two cases?
They have no similarities.

[MACH.88]

If he has retired, then why is the individual working in June??

Whether they get fired, demoted, or retire, what difference does it make in the grander scheme of things?

MACH.88:cool:

[AnAmusedReader]

Coz the roster for June came out before he left. Check who did his flights.

[punkalouver]

Actually what is surprising is that he lost his seat given that a certain TC managed to keep his ratings after the ORD cargo fire debacle. What is worse - exceeding a limitation of the aircraft and not reporting it or skipping an item in an emergency checklist to satisfy the commercial side of the operation?

The ORD fire was handled as best was thought possible at the moment. The limitation exceedence was small I believe. I believe it was said that the step in the emergency checklist was not significant.

[Sqwak7700]

The ORD fire was handled as best was thought possible at the moment. The limitation exceedence was small I believe. I believe it was said that the step in the emergency checklist was not significant.

Uh, wrong. It was f*cked up, plain and simple.

As an airline, we still have a lot of pilots with the misconception that commercial comes in front of safety. This will work great until it doesn't, at which point we will have one of those accidents people discuss years later in every CRM course across the industry.

The fact this still exists at such a major airline tells you how broken the internal workings are.

[punkalouver]

Uh, wrong. It was f*cked up, plain and simple.

As an airline, we still have a lot of pilots with the misconception that commercial comes in front of safety. This will work great until it doesn't, at which point we will have one of those accidents people discuss years later in every CRM course across the industry.


And what would you have done differently?

[crwkunt roll]

I'm amazed the guy has lasted this long, after years of testing the respective fleet offices.

[crwkunt roll]

He would have probably landed at the nearest suitable airport????

[JammedStab]

Discovered today that it was a 747 freighter three point turn. Or maybe it was a 777.

[luvmuhud]

I'm not familiar with the Boeing AutoBrake system, but doesn't each AB setting give a constant deceleration independent of reverse selection (reverse, in 'normal' ops will just affect the brake temperature?).

[Yonosoy Marinero]

but doesn't each AB setting give a constant deceleration independent of reverse selection (reverse, in 'normal' ops will just affect the brake temperature?).

Yup.

...

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

Ok PPrune. There. Happy now?

[White None]

Discovered today that it was a 747 freighter three point turn.

WRONG - 777

[punkalouver]

WRONG - 777

Why wouldn't he just roll to the next exit instead of what I assume was an attempt to make the high speed.

Did he discover that after using heavy braking in an attempt to make the high speed was just a bit too far and tried a sharp turn to get to it and discovered that he was facing the runway edge?

[nitpicker330]

I was under the impression that it occurred at the end of the runway involving a mis-judged 180 requiring a three point turn :sad:

Something in the limitations saying not to back the Aircraft using reverse?

Worked for him...:ok:

[crwkunt roll]

Quote:
but doesn't each AB setting give a constant deceleration independent of reverse selection (reverse, in 'normal' ops will just affect the brake temperature?).

The TOTAL rate of deceleration provided by the autobrake includes reverse selection. If you select full reverse, the autobrake works less hard to provide the required rate, hence the lower brake temps.

[JammedStab]

I was under the impression that it occurred at the end of the runway involving a mis-judged 180 requiring a three point turn :sad:

Something in the limitations saying not to back the Aircraft using reverse?

Worked for him...:ok:

Looks like every runway end has available a simple 90 degree turnoff if you are at the end and no taxiways are closed or blocked.

Some aircraft are allowed idle reverse while taxiing. The limitation is no more than idle reverse. Perhaps he was light and just used that. Or does it specifically say no reverse movement of aircraft with engines at idle. Of course, backwards movement at idle is occurs during pushback all the time. Of course the engine is in forward thrust.

[SMOC]

Backing the airplane with use of reverse thrust is prohibited.

.....................


The following errors occurred with your submission:
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[Loopdeloop]

Jammed stab. The engines are not selected into reverse when experiencing reverse movement during push back!

Not only is backing the aircraft using reverse thrust prohibited, it's also a very bad idea. Firstly, the increased FOD hazard is significant with all the crap being blown up into the intake and secondly, can you imagine the world of trouble you'd be in if you were backing up a bit fast and decided to use the brakes to slow it down? There are many other reasons but these two are enough for me.

[geh065]

What airport did this happen at?

[punkalouver]

Not only is backing the aircraft using reverse thrust prohibited, it's also a very bad idea. Firstly, the increased FOD hazard is significant with all the crap being blown up into the intake and secondly, can you imagine the world of trouble you'd be in if you were backing up a bit fast and decided to use the brakes to slow it down? There are many other reasons but these two are enough for me.

I remember way back when in the '90s going through Atlanta which had Eastern Airlines as a major carrier at the time. Except for the A300, they did powerbacks from the gate with all their aircraft which surprisingly included the 757.

Looking at the HKG airport diagram, it does appear that there is a simple 90 degree turn off at the end of each runway.

[Loopdeloop]

Before someone provides a link to the mighty C130 or C17 backing up in dusty Afghanistan, I should add that my use of the expression "the aircraft" was used to denote the particular aircraft involved in the incident under discussion in this thread!

[Obama57]

Eastern ceased ops in Jan 1990, Real Eastern March 1989. Powerbacks were approved for B727, DC9, and B757. A300 and L1011 were always pushed back.

[JammedStab]

So there ya go...it can be done as seen here. And apparently the CX one happened at YYZ.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/596345-3-point-turn-757-a.html

[Oval3Holer]

What's more concerning is full reverse on a non-contaminated runway when brake temperatures are not an issue. Oh, and after an ACARS landing data assessment...

At the home base...

With one million feet of runway...

Idiots do this because they have no fuc*ing clue...

Moronic robots.

[Oval3Holer]

Here's American doing it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zkxh903s_w

[BlunderBus]

Really?? Grow a pair will ya