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View Full Version : Another Shooting by a Crazed Gunman, but not in US


Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 15:46
Well, here is proof that crazy gunmen are not uniquely American. This is in Canada where guns are highly regulated. The culprit is a crazy, not a fun.


Manhunt in Moncton, N.B., after RCMP officers shot dead | Canada | News | Toront (http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/05/manhunt-in-moncton-nb-after-rcmp-officers-shot-dead)

MONCTON, N.B. -- Schools in Moncton, N.B., have been closed and residents are being urged to stay in their homes Thursday morning as RCMP search for a suspect after three Mounties were shot and killed and two others were wounded Wednesday evening.

A manhunt is underway for Justin Bourque, 24, of Moncton.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
5th Jun 2014, 16:30
Spooky. I was in that area of Moncton 3 weeks ago.
There are reports of automatic fire from the gunman: Automatic weapons are Prohibited in Canada, as are those which are easy to modify to automatic.
There will not be much on the news till he's caught, as the RCMP have asked for a blackout as it is believed he is monitoring the media.

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 16:58
There are reports of automatic fire from the gunman: Automatic weapons are Prohibited in Canada, as are those which are easy to modify to automatic.


OMG, how is it possible then? You must be mistaken.

AtomKraft
5th Jun 2014, 17:02
It's probably an American, visiting Canada.

:E

Disguised as a Canadian..

brickhistory
5th Jun 2014, 17:03
I assume Canadian police react about as well as American ones when brother officers are shot, never mind killed.

I'm guessing there will be Canadian capital punishment regardless of the law.

I hope so anyway.

AtomKraft
5th Jun 2014, 17:05
You're a funny guy, Brick.

You expect policeman to disregard the law. Who do expect to enforce it then?

brickhistory
5th Jun 2014, 17:08
I believe the fairly universal adage of "You shoot at me, I'm gonna shoot back" applies.

The 'law' has nothing to do with it.

As amply demonstrated by the murderer who broke not only, assuming here, Canadian laws regarding murder, assault, etc, but also gun laws.

Killing a cop in pretty much anywhere seems to result in a similar result.

AtomKraft
5th Jun 2014, 17:16
Brick.
Isn't that self defence?

I'm sure there will be more bullets flying soon though, and having killed three cops, it's going to take more than fast talking.

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 17:25
Brick.
Isn't that self defence?



Eliminating the threat, most likely.

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 17:27
Update from CBC, the police have a building surrounded in Moncton. Won't say where for obvious reasons.

http://i.cbc.ca/1.2665708.1401959795!/fileImage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/original_300/rcmp-map.PNG

Dak Man
5th Jun 2014, 17:33
....my guess is Moncton.

mixture
5th Jun 2014, 18:16
Well, here is proof that crazy gunmen are not uniquely American. This is in Canada where guns are highly regulated. The culprit is a crazy, not a fun.

How many shootings in Canada this year ? Pretty much guaranteed to be a substantially fewer than in the USA.... and possibly even fewer than the USA has had in May alone.

The words "clutching at straws" come to mind when the pro-gun lobbyists turn up and say "but but but Sir/Maaaaaamm......look at that country !" .....

Who gives a toss about the NRA ... time for some R E F O R M .... :cool:

brickhistory
5th Jun 2014, 18:38
That's racist.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 18:41
Fox 3

I thought you were also limited to maximum 5 round magazines in Canada.

GrumpyOldFart
5th Jun 2014, 18:44
For years, I've watched news broadcasts from places like Columbine, Dunblane and Hungerford, where locals have said "I never dreamed it could happen here." I've thought to myself "You silly sod - it could happen anywhere."

Now it's happened in our nearby city of Moncton, a fairly unassuming centre for hospitals, specialists, government services, employment, etc., and I'm watching news pictures of streets I've driven down hundreds, if not thousands, of times. GrumpyDaughterFart both lives and works in the lock-down area but, thankfully, she was staying the other side of town last night, and her workplace is, well, locked down today.

And what am I thinking? "I never dreamed it could happen here."

BenThere
5th Jun 2014, 18:46
I believe that if you could correct US stats and remove African-American and Hispanic majority jurisdictions where illegal residents run more than 10%, you would have gun crime statistics pretty much in line with Canada's.

That's the America where I live, which is well-armed and as safe as anywhere.

It's not the guns, but the criminals that are the problem. No gun reform needed, mixture, but thanks for your concern.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 18:49
Grumpy

And I never thought I'd see the day that a Senior military officer of the Canadian Armed forces who was destined for the "top job" would be busted as a serial rapist and murderer.

pigboat
5th Jun 2014, 19:07
How many shootings in Canada this year ? Pretty much guaranteed to be a substantially fewer than in the USA....
Given that we have 1/10 the population of the US, I should certainly hope so.

The remarks section of the news services I subscribe to are full of calls for a gun ban. Nothing new there, but a month ago five people in Calgary and three in Toronto were stabbed to death. The same group were strangely silent about a ban on kitchen cutlery.

I'm guessing there will be Canadian capital punishment regardless of the law.
Guess again Brick. If he isn't shot during his arrest he'll spend the rest of his life on the public dime. If you want a good idea how the Canadian justice system works, look for a book titled Contempt Of Court by Carsten Stroud. That'll keep ya awake at night.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 19:11
How much did the last lot of Canadian "gun reform and registration" cost before it was thrown out as an absolute debacle and not worth it because it would have made Zero difference ????

Billions of $$$ wasted.

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 19:37
Actually, $2 Billion, give or take a million. Ironically, the Canadian Firearms Licensing and Registry HQ is in Moncton, NB.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 19:41
How could I forget !

I had a nagging feeling it was $ billions, I should have checked.

pigboat
5th Jun 2014, 19:56
Yes, but we were promised it would cost two million initially and be self supporting after the initial set up. There was a small cost overrun. The system was set up for purely political reasons by a guy whose only claim to fame was he once jammed with John Lennon.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 20:00
Yes, agree.

To be honest, a lot of people are glad it happened as it is held up as a shining light by pro gun people as to the stupidity of anti gunners and wasted money when not actually going to achieve anything - apart from listing guns by serial number which achieves nothing.

BTW, they are never "self supporting", the people required just gets more and more !

con-pilot
5th Jun 2014, 20:02
a guy whose only claim to fame was he once jammed with John Lennon

Well hell, that's more than our current President had when first elected. :p




Now back on subject, have the got the guy yet; dead or alive?

I made some friends with some Mounties when I was with the Marshal Service, all retired now, but one thing I did learn and admire, you don't fu<k with them. If today’s Mounties are anywhere like the ones I knew, that guy will not be taken alive.

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 20:08
NO, not yet. It appears that the building he was, allegedly, surrounded in was not his hiding place. Manhunt continues.

Jun 05 2014
Moncton, New Brunswick

Two stark and contrasting portraits are emerging of the young man suspected of killing three Mounties and injuring two others in a heavily armed rampage Wednesday night.

One was the highly intelligent, laid back, home-schooled guitar enthusiast known to friends who grew up alongside 24-year-old Justin Bourque in suburban Moncton.

The other was a radical, angry remake earlier this year of a man obsessed with gun rights, angered by police and fixated on global conflicts going half a world away.

“It was almost like a complete 180 for him,” friend and former workmate Trever Finck told the Toronto Star. “There was a pretty stark difference.”

The new Bourque — the one dressed head-to-toe in army fatigues and toting two high-powered guns — is now the subject of an intense police manhunt that has confined thousands of Moncton residents to their homes, forced the shutdown of schools and a temporary halt to public services until the man suspected in the brutal killings is captured.

While RCMP says the alleged shooter had been spotted three times early Thursday morning in the area of a local Walmart, they have so far been unable to capture him. Those who know Bourque are not particularly surprised that he has evaded his hunters this long.

One acquaintance who spoke to the Star on condition of anonymity described Bourque as someone with “lots of tactical knowledge.”

“I think he should be considered military-trained,” the friend said. A spokesperson for the Department of National Defence has said that Justin Bourque was never a member of the Canadian military.

Bourque has had a long enthusiasm for guns, however, and even before Wednesday night’s shooting was often seen dressed in camouflage military fatigues.

The acquaintance, who last saw Bourque in person two years ago, said: “I know he went into the woods to shoot things, but I’m assuming it (was) targets like cans or paper targets. He was always safe from what I’m told (and) made sure there was a dirt mountain behind it.”

He, like others, is shocked by what Bourque has alleged to have done. Up until now, he had left the impression of a nice, friendly guy.

“Nobody expected this.”

But as events unfolded after supper hour in suburban Moncton, essentially locking down a huge swath of the city, including schools, shopping malls and private homes, the reality quickly dawned on those who know Bourque.

“When they started giving the description (of the shooter), he was the only person I could think of that would dress like that,” Finck said. “Moncton is such a small city. In the back of my mind I thought of that and I was on Skype with my friends and they had just released a picture of him. As soon as I saw it I was like, ‘Whoa, wow, this is really crazy.’ ”

But it wasn’t beyond belief that Bourque might do something out of character given his odd behaviour in recent months.

Finck said Bourque had two guns that were stored in a gun cabinet in the home he shared with his parents and siblings. He often displayed them to visiting friends.

According to Finck, Bourque owned a Chinese M-14 rifle and a shotgun. The latter was purchased in the last few months.

“I remember him messaging me saying he had bought a new shotgun. It was probably in early April. That was the last time I talked to him,” Finck said.

Just before that, in March, Bourque had made contact with a number of old friends and was looking for roommates to move in together. He ended up settling in a trailer park. Popular pastimes included the normal young adult fare of video games and marijuana.

And despite the apparent obsession with guns and the police, there were no signs of mental health problems that Finck or other friends were aware of. Rather, Bourque had spoken openly to some friends of having moved on from marijuana to harder drugs like heroin.

“When I heard about it, it kind of made sense because the last time I had seen him he was emaciated and skinny,” Finck said. “It looked like he wasn’t doing too well. He kind of looked sick.”

He had transformed significantly from the guitar player who had hopes of launching a band, someone described as a good guy, calm, level-headed and, at worst, a little weird — something his circle of friends chalked up to him having been home-schooled and lacking social experience.

On his Facebook page, which a friend has confirmed is authentic, Bourque posted memes and other images in support of gun ownership and critical of the police.

His most recent post features lyrics from the Megadeth song “Hook in Mouth,” that includes the words: “You say you’ve got the answers, well who asked you anyway?/Ever think maybe it was meant to be this way?/ Don’t try to fool us, we know the worst is yet to come/I believe my kingdom will come.”

Matthew de Grood, accused of fatally stabbing five young people at a Calgary house party in April, also posted Megadeth lyrics as his final Facebook message.

Another post on Bourque’s Facebook wall reads: “Ask yourself, would you fight for the future of your children or grandchildren, or your family and friends sons and daughters? The answer is: no you’re too stupid to know what to fight for, cause we’re already losing the silent war you don’t wanna believe is happening.”

Aaron Gell of Business Insiderquoted other longtime friends who described Bourque as someone who hated authority and fantasized about revenge.

“I never took him seriously, but he always said he wanted to go out with a bang and bring people with him,” Caitlin Isaac, who formerly worked with him at Walmart, told Gell.

A Walmart spokesman said that Bourque has not worked at the Moncton location since 2010.

Longtime friend Mike Campbell reportedly told Business Insider that he had a recent unsettling conversation with Bourque a couple weeks ago.

“I told him, ‘Get hold of me later.’ And he was like, ‘I don’t know. . . You take care, Mike. You have a good life.’”

It remains unclear where Bourque purchased the firearms. World’s End Warehouse, a firearms dealer in the Moncton suburb of Riverview, said in a statement that Bourque was “known personally by employees of our store,” but that he was never a customer and did not purchase firearms or ammunition from World’s End.

Justin Bourque underwent radical, angry remake, friend says | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/05/justin_bourque_wanted_to_go_out_with_a_bang_report .html)

West Coast
5th Jun 2014, 20:23
Guess again Brick. If he isn't shot during his arrest he'll spend the rest of his life on the public dime.

One has to wonder if one of the officers involved in the hunt will relieve the Canadian taxpayers of that burden. I saw the top cop for the area on the telly, understandably he was very emotional at the loss. Couldn't help but be touched by his genuine sense of anguish.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 20:29
You mean a cop might just execute the guy ????

Now now, the fluffy huggies would not be very happy about that ?


You need to make sure he gets into a position and has a firearm
and you feel your life is in danger - and then double tap him !

Dushan
5th Jun 2014, 20:38
The fluffy huggies expect the Mounties to shoot the gun out of his hand, from 300 yards, then one more shot to the index finger to disable him from shooting the second gun.

Simplythebeast
5th Jun 2014, 20:38
Thoughts are with the families and colleagues of those murdered and injured in the line of duty in Moncton.we are so quick to have a go at Police wherever they are but at the end of the day those souls didnt drive in to work this morning expecting never to see their loved ones again.
RIP and God Bless.

tdracer
5th Jun 2014, 22:02
Given that the suspect apparently has no qualms about using deadly force against others and has already murdered three "officers of the law", I would think if he's armed when found, and doesn't immediately surrender, the RCMP have every justification to use deadly force.

Several years ago, a Seattle cop was killed when the guy he was serving a warrant to opened the door and stabbed him with a sword. After an extended standoff, the swat team went in - if I recall correctly the suspect was shot over 50 times :sad: (he didn't survive).
Not even in ultra liberal Seattle was this considered 'excessive force'.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
5th Jun 2014, 22:08
The RCMP, in the Maritimes anyway, have a good record of being patient and getting armed individuals to surrender.
OTOH, the kind of gunman in this case tends to take out as many as he can before dying, and has no intention of surrender. This was Canada's last big multiple killing of RCMP officers (2 died in 2006 in Sask. also)
Mayerthorpe tragedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy)

con-pilot
5th Jun 2014, 22:15
the swat team went in - if I recall correctly the suspect was shot over 50 times

That reminds of the case of a cop killer in Florida, he was shot at over three hundred time. When the sheriff was asked by the media why they shot at the cop killer three hundred time, he replied, “That was all the bullets we had."

Oh, that cop killer didn’t survive either. A Grand Jury investigated the shooting and no charges were filed and the State Attorney General ruled the shooting justified.

500N
5th Jun 2014, 22:18
Sounds like on of the terrorists in the Iranian siege in London.
Every SAS team member who went past the door shot him.
Something like 67 or 87 bullets in him at the end.

charliegolf
5th Jun 2014, 22:34
Sounds like on of the terrorists in the Iranian siege in London.
Every SAS team member who went past the door shot him.
Something like 67 or 87 bullets in him at the end.

And:

Coroner: Soldier B, why did you fire 37 bullets into the deceased?
Soldier B: 'Cos there is only room for 37 rounds in the magazine M'Lud.Or similar was reported!
There is no doubt that the troopers tried (and failed) to take the surviving terrorist back into the embassy after he sneaked out posing as a hostage. I have no idea what they planned to do with him!

CG

500N
5th Jun 2014, 22:37
Correct. Bloody BBC setting up that camera !

He was very lucky to come out of that alive !

Do you know that terrorist has lived in the UK since his release ?

Actually got a briefing / presentation from one of the operators on that op.
It was very interesting.

421dog
5th Jun 2014, 23:07
So Maybe Ricky, Julian and bubbles aren't fictional and Jim Lahey is doing his best to keep our collective trailers safe for alcoholism...

Bushfiva
6th Jun 2014, 00:02
In the early stages of the event, I was impressed by how many photos went up on 4chan. Especially the rear view of the guy seemingly strolling down the street. Also the Youtube video that showed shots being fired.

GrumpyOldFart
6th Jun 2014, 05:33
The Mounties got their man at 0010 Friday.

Dushan
6th Jun 2014, 05:34
Suspect in custody. Developing...

West Coast
6th Jun 2014, 05:36
Good news!

sitigeltfel
6th Jun 2014, 05:48
Correct. Bloody BBC setting up that camera

It was ITN.

500N
6th Jun 2014, 05:52
Yes, my mistake.

Lord Spandex Masher
6th Jun 2014, 08:25
Really...?

ExXB
6th Jun 2014, 10:26
Some statistics from StatsCan (2012 data)

Moncton, ironically is one of two Canadian cities a with a population over 100K with no homicides for the last 3 years. New Brunswick had 6 homicides in 2012.

543 total homicides (all types, including guns). One province (Prince Edward Island) and the Yukon territory had no homicides in 2012. Nunuvit had by far the highest homicide rate thanks to a very small population and 5 homicides. NorthWest Territories was #2, with the same 5 homicides but a larger population.

Ranking of Provinces/Territories homicide rate per 100K (total homicides in brackets).

1 and 2 (tie). PE and YT (0)
3. NL (3)
4. NB (6)
5. ON (162)
6. QC (108)
7. BC (71)
8. NS (17)
9. AB (85)
10. SK (29)
11. MB (52)
12. NT (5)
13. NU (5)

Handguns accounted for 65% of homicides involving firearms, long guns 35%. (handguns are strictly regulated, long guns much less so).

Shootings (33%) and stabbings (31%) were the most common methods used to commit homicide.

As the US has 10 times the population you might expect 10 times the homicide rate. Actually it's 3 times higher. Obviously the difference isn't just due to guns. According to the CDC (2010)

Number of Homicides: 16,259
Number of Firearm homicides: 11,078

Kudos to the RCMP/GRC for their professional resolution to this incident.

ehwatezedoing
6th Jun 2014, 13:49
I assume Canadian police react about as well as American ones when brother officers are shot, never mind killed.

I'm guessing there will be Canadian capital punishment regardless of the law.

I hope so anyway.

Moncton's police or whomever "forces" who caught the guy proved more intelligent than that (Bourque surrender helped for sure) they followed the law.

He will face real justice, not a lynching crowd like in medieval's times or places in the Middle East.
Worth mentioning too that the guy didn't take the easy or cowardly way out by killing himself.

Dushan
6th Jun 2014, 17:59
Unfortunately he will end up like the guy who killed the passenger on the bus and the guy who killed the cop with a snowplow. Not guilty due to mental defect, 3 years in a loony house, then free to go whenever he likes.

I'd prefer the "medieval way".

BenThere
6th Jun 2014, 18:11
Any chance he'll be placed in stocks if convicted?

I would travel to Moncton, stay in a four star hotel, and dine in their fanciest restaurant, just for the privilege of splatting a ripe tomato on his face.

V2-OMG!
6th Jun 2014, 18:41
What a coward. In his deluded sense of outrage and importance, he ambushed the officers and fired away. When confronted by the officers, he threw up his hands and said "I'm done."

This 24 year-old doesn't deserve mention on a day like today, 70 years after so many men his age and younger, fell on the beaches of Normandie.

con-pilot
6th Jun 2014, 19:35
This 24 year-old doesn't deserve mention on a day like today, 70 years after so many men his age and younger, fell on the beaches of Normandie

Best post on this thread.

rh200
6th Jun 2014, 23:40
just for the privilege of splatting a ripe tomato on his face

Nope, the urge to go a few steps further would be to much.

ruddman
7th Jun 2014, 02:57
Nope, the urge to go a few steps further would be to much.


Sheesh man. You're not talking like......going all the way....



....and using a Greek salad? :eek:

chuks
7th Jun 2014, 03:51
Used to be, as in the case of the Mad Trapper (Go Canada!) it was a fight to the death.

Nowadays, it seems to be either almost immediate surrender or else suicide, and I simply do not understand where either of these impulses comes from. Are these games people complain about part of the problem, with the killer thinking he's actuating some sort of "Reset" mode by doing either of these things, to get another life and carry on?

Not that I really want to break a lance on behalf of a mass murderer such as the Mad Trapper, but at least he was pretty firmly grounded in reality, simply killing people who would not leave him alone. Okay, he went a bit too far, I guess you could say, but you really could follow his twisted logic there, right to the end.

What of these modern murderers, though? They seem to start out with some kind of goofy, vicious manifesto that justifies killing people who have done them no harm at all, often innocent children, to then very quickly choose either surrender or suicide, and not either of those because they are out of ammo or down to the last bullet. That makes me wonder at the low threshold for mass murder now, that it can be done in such a downright frivolous way.

I think that we are seeing a hellish mix of ultra-violent and somewhat realistic games, easy access to powerful weapons, and a lack of integration into society, when all these things combine to produce alarmingly more numerous killing sprees, or so it seems. It's probably true that in Canada and the USA one is more likely to die choking to death on a Big Mac than at the hands of some crazed killer with hundreds of rounds of ammo, but only one of those really is worrisome.

PLovett
7th Jun 2014, 04:42
Unfortunately he will end up like the guy who killed the passenger on the bus and the guy who killed the cop with a snowplow. Not guilty due to mental defect, 3 years in a loony house, then free to go whenever he likes.

Dushan, if the law in Canada is anything like that in Australia then your comment is rubbish. A person found "not guilty" due to insanity/mental defect is then taken to a secure mental institution until such time as they are competent to be tried. The reality of that in Australia is never.

The reality of the insanity defence is that it is light years out of date with medical knowledge. The starting point is that the law presumes everyone both knows the law and is sane. Therefore, the insanity defence relies on the defendant having to show that at the time they committed the act they did not know that what they were doing was wrong at law by reason of their mental incapacity. It is a very steep hurdle and is only rarely successful.

The most notorious case in my home state in Australia was Rory Jack Thompson who was actually a US citizen but Australian resident. He murdered his estranged wife, carved her up and put her down a kitchen waste disposal unit. He was a scientist with an Australia scientific organisation; was probably in the top 3% intellectually in the country but was found "not guilty" due to insanity.

He was taken to the hospital wing of the state prison where he languished for many years. There was a recommendation that he be released but no politician was going to take the responsibility for that and Thompson eventually committed suicide.

John Hill
7th Jun 2014, 05:16
Congratulations to all involved if the shooter was taken and is to be handed over to the authorities responsible for justice.

probes
7th Jun 2014, 05:24
There are reports of automatic fire from the gunman: Automatic weapons are Prohibited in Canada, as are those which are easy to modify to automatic.
OMG, how is it possible then? You must be mistaken.
see, Dushan? Your Amendment has amended the whole continent?

ok-ok, that wasn't nice of me :ouch:. And it's a sad event anyway.

500N
7th Jun 2014, 05:33
After seeing the video of the guy shooting one of the police in cold blood
as he stood outside the car, this guy is lucky to be alive.

chuks
7th Jun 2014, 09:15
The guy seems like some sort of oxygen thief, so that I would not call him lucky to be alive. He exists, sure, but does he have a "life" as such? I don't think so.

Now we get the denouement, days and days in court with the defense probably trying to show this creep's life and hard times, the things that must have sent him doolally.

I bet it all starts with a plea of "not guilty," as usual, and carries on with his statements to the police being inadmissible because of ... something or other that the police either did or did not do. Run around shooting hell out of cops, a school full of kids, whatever ... that's a sort of given, but trying to catch and prosecute the shooter! Ah! That is a very different matter, something that has to be perfectly done or else it's "Get out of jail free!"

Dushan
7th Jun 2014, 10:43
Dushan, if the law in Canada is anything like that in Australia then your comment is rubbish. A person found "not guilty" due to insanity/mental defect is then taken to a secure mental institution until such time as they are competent to be tried. The reality of that in Australia is never.



Not at all. The two cases I mentioned that is exactly what happened.

The first, the perp killed a bus passenger, then during a 20 hour standoff ate the victim's body parts including his eyes. After three years in a mental institution he is now free to go on day passes unescorted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean

In the second case the perp stole a snowplow during a snow storm. He started destroying cars and store windows with it. The police gave chase. He mowed one policeman in cold blood and killed him. He too is in a mental institution and already eligible for escorted day passes. He already petitioned for unescorted passes but at this time was denied. He is entitled to request every year and the family of the slain cop has to go through horror of facing him and has to give reasons why he should not be allowed.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/man-who-killed-toronto-cop-with-snowplow-compliant-with-treatment-doctors/article16398999/

rh200
7th Jun 2014, 22:57
Re. The Tim McClean case.

The perp should be dead, its a travesty they waited and just didn't pop the [email protected] when they saw the extent of his depravity.

And if you where truly cured, could you really live with yourself?

500N
7th Jun 2014, 23:02
A lot to be said for engineering the situation where it requires the putting down of said people. Saves one hell of a lot of grief and cost and removes any chance of re offending.

ricardian
19th Jun 2014, 04:24
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10354584_10152255378009671_2777391988753911638_n.jpg

(apologies for dodgy grammar & punctuation)