Seat auctions

[oriental flyer]

According to the SCMP CX is considering an online auction for passengers to bid to upgrade their seats .If their bid is successful they will be notified 4 days before departure
The whole point of this is to fill up any spare seats in premium economy or business with upgrades

Well staff travel is going to go to S--t in a hurry

[broadband circuit]

Well staff travel is going to go to S--t in a hurry

True, but at least now they're getting some $ from the passengers, rather than giving the upgrades for free. If a punter paying $$$ gets a J class seat before me, I can live with that. What I can't live with is presenting an ID J ticket, and getting downgraded to Y when a Y punter gets a free upgrade to J that they didn't pay for.

[SloppyJoe]

Think this will piss off full fare J ticket holders.

[SASKATOON9999]

Air NZ have been doing this for years! Works very well.

[SMOC]

Cathay Pacific not interested in starting up a low-cost carrier now | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/news/cathay-pacific-not-interested-in-starting-up-a-low-cost-carrier-now-342668)


Of course you don't want to start a low cost carrier CX.

You are already one

You're slowly introducing all the tricks of a LCC in your current operation.

[Max Reheat]

So,
They've gone and done it:D
This is the beginning of the end for staff travel on CX!
Their aim is to fill every seat in J and F with those lovely people from down the back.
So, this, following on from last month's little bombshell is going to make long haul travel difficult, to say the least, because the traffic lights will be even more meaningless now until 48 hrs from STD.
I think I'm going to try full fare on Qatar next time I need to go home at my own expense.
For the first time in 30 years of flying I am now truly disillusioned with everything.
Thanks Ivan. In two months you have put the final nails into the coffin of what was, until quite recently, a great airline and a great career!

[Frogman1484]

I thought they were canning it due to the backlash from the frequent fliers.

[Max Reheat]

Front page of intracx yesterday. It's all go!

[lookoutbelow]

Quite astonished at reading this. From someone who is no way connected with CX, surely a passenger airline is in business to fly as many PAX (sorry "scum down the back") as they can from A to B and yield as much from them as possible to be profitable. If people can pay to upgrade, either a set fee or however else so be it. The seats are there for the business to be profitable not to allow pilots to commute to the far corners or go on holiday for free. If the seats are available then take them, if the 'scum' are in them paying your wages then take what is available down the back. Surely it is a perk not a god given right...

[Max Reheat]

Well, Lookoutbelow....

This is a PILOT's Rumours network after all!

To answer a couple of your points... If you were in our position (ie in command of the aeroplane and the crew) then you would see what our Cabin Crew have to put up with on a very regular basis and you would see the reason for my use of the words 'lovely people'. I am sorry if that upsets or outrages you but we now sell the tickets so cheaply that indeed 'lovely people' can afford them and indeed they do!
Secondly, you are correct that staff travel is a perk and not a right. I would be the first to acknowledge that the passenger (who pays our salaries) must come first, BUT ONLY if he has paid the going rate for his ticket.
If I was a Diamond Card holder I would be mighty p'd off at this news. This despite a supposed canvassing of opinion amongst our most valued customers coming up with a resounding NO WAY to the project!
As an outsider, you are not privy to the recent savage attacks prosecuted by the Company on our conditions of service. As a passenger, if you fly with CX you are probably acutely aware and comforted that our standards are amongst the highest in the region, if not the world. Now, an airline markets itself to potential employees using conditions of service (which includes staff travel perks) as a big carrot. If those conditions are eroded, then ultimately the loser will be our standards because the high calibre pilot you have become used to won't be here any more and you'll just have to accept a higher risk when you travel!

[SMOC]

HKG to LHR - CX255 JUL 1st - Y Class $13,697.00

HKG to LHR - CX255 JUL 1st - J Class $49,167.00


Think I'll buy the EY ticket pay $500 and go hang out with a Diamond member who paid lets see ........ $35,000 more than I did :ok:

So if you do your homework online you can easily rip CX off, even dropping 20k will save you $15,000!

How long will it be before no one purchases a J class ticket and just scams the system?

Oh and I see the crap IT is CX wide, it kept crashing and saying I'd entered the data incorrectly using their own pre filled data :ugh: plus as usual it's so full of crap extras making purchasing a ticket a pain in the ass.

Oh I forgot and then I'm going to drink and taste every bottle of wine a champagne because I can easily get my $500 back!

[lookoutbelow]

Max reheat,

It has got nothing to do with being a rumour network. If you are so professional and set the highest standards at CX your personal view of the paying public that pay your industry leading salary is quite frankly appalling IMHO.

Although not for CX (and maybe having read some of these threads i am pleased not to be), I am in your position and I am sure I have seen much worse, down the back on my flights (if you have you ever operated the Hadj charters out of JED to West Africa with PAX urinating in the aisle you will know what I mean!). That said not sure I have ever referred to these people as scum..

I appreciate that CX are gradually eroding your platinum conditions but unfortunately, it is a case of welcome to the real world. It is happening at QF, BA, KLM, all the flag carriers as well as charter companies and LOCO's alike. Whilst you would probably like to think it, CX is no different, it is an airline and has to make money to continue. They are probably trying to remain competitive and affordable to the 'scum' they rely on to fill the aircraft and make routes profitable.

The tripe you spout about standards shows your naivety in that you have very little idea what goes on outside CX. Some of the pilots I come across in a training/checking capacity with LOCO or charter backgrounds are very talented indeed and to pretend your standard is a cut above the rest is presumptuous at best. After all your job cannot be any harder than any other airline pilot and indeed some i am sure would say easier in many respects (modern fleet, technical reliability, large well equipped airport to large well equipped airport and so on).

You remain some of the best rewarded pilots in the industry. I am sure you have worked very hard to get there and honestly well done to you.

It might be worth thinking from time to time life hasn't been that unkind, after all you could have ended up working for Southwest, Ryanair, EasyJet etc or worse still could have been one of the scum at the back saving up for weeks, months or years in order to afford to visit a relative or take a holiday.

[Flying Clog]

Bollocks.

I'm with Max Reheat on this one.

:E

[raven11]

Max, we all share your frustration and lament at the seemingly never ending decline in our benefits.....

However, your choice of words are, to say the least, unprofessional and offensive. They reflect badly on us.

Do us all a favour and edit your posts....

[Trafalgar]

If I find I am not able to travel reliably and comfortably between London and HK, then I will 'modify' my travel to reflect such a difficulty. Basically, instead of taking a week back home, I will 'extend' that in the time fashioned way to two/three weeks.....a couple of times a year at least. Make my life difficult....you can have it back the same way in spades. Contempt for their staff.

[cxorcist]

Trafalgar,

That is exactly the right way to handle this. I believe it is called a PRA, and it is the only true weapon with which we have to fight back against this offensive company and their attack on our CoS.

Max,

I think "scum" is a bit harsh, but your point is spot on. I wish more were as outraged as you and me, but the company loyalists never cease to amaze.

CXorcist

[Max Reheat]

Chaps,

I get the point and have edited my choice of words... perhaps initially posted in a red mist of anger.

It's not just the impact to staff travel that I am upset about but also the image to the airline. Perhaps we should just rebrand as 'Ebay Pacific'.

To 'Lookoutbelow'...
If, 20 years ago I had wanted to join a LoCo then that is what I would have done. But I was fortunate enough to get a job with what was at that point one of the best carriers in the world, not only for the staff but the passengers too. I flew to LHR last week in Business Class (on duty), admittedly a midnight departure but the meal choices were, Fish, Caesar Salad or a Meat Pie... A meat pie for Pete's sake; on 251, one of our premier services.

Some of the guys know who I am from my PP handle, they know I generally put the Company first, but now our lords and masters have taken one further step over the line.

It just all very sad.

[Loopdeloop]

Max, you're spot on.

lookoutbelow, you're not. Unfortunately the jealousy we see within CX that constantly helps to erode our pay and CoS is obviously prevalent in a wider field. I'm a long way from being amongst the highest earners here at CX but am well aware that we need to try to keep the highest level and preferably increase it (a battle we've already mostly lost) otherwise the aiming point gets constantly lowered.
The same is true of staff travel. The locos in Europe started off with none but one be one have had to introduce and improve this perk to help with retention of, amongst other things, the constant attrition to airlines with a good travel scheme.
Your excuse that "They are probably trying to remain competitive" is one I've seen many times coming from our management... and is utter rubbish.

[BNEA320]

geez cheap staff travel is a bonus & should always be subload. +ve space ?


Your dreaming.


Some of the comments above make it sound like staff are more important than paying customers.


Get your head out of the clouds & enter the real world.

[Bob Hawke]

Being competitive means paying higher bonuses to managers. That works.

[Max Reheat]

BNEA320,

I don't presume to go on to Godzone & Dununda and tell you how to run your life... It's interesting that you see a need to do it here?

In typical Pprune fashion outsiders are coming in to tell us how wrong we are without having actually gathered all of the information! It's just envy at what you presume to be a great meal ticket that we are on.... but you couldn't be more wrong!

The whole point of all of this is that the Company are now going to sell cheap tickets and then open up a bidding process for those who bought a cheap ticket to pay for an upgrade to the preium cabins at what may be a much lower cost. How is that going to make the pax who paid full fare feel? Especially our highly prized Marc-Polo members who are the life-blood of this airline?

We all agree that the passengers must come first and foremost all the time, every time and this is as it should be, but honestly, only if they have paid the going rate.

Which other 5 star airline auctions it's premium seats off?

It is only an unfortunate side-effect that staff travel will suffer. The long term consequence of that is that the quality of of our standards will fall as the more experienced types either leave, or don't come in the first place.
And don't forget BNEA320, you are highly likely living in your home country. We are thousands of miles from home and extended family and when we joined it was relatively straight forward to get back comfortably, which actually is quite important if you only have a few days off. Yes, amongst many things, we came for the money... but those days are long gone!

[ZFT]

Max Reheat,
I’m not sticking my nose into the ID travel side of this as no knowledge and certainly no right to comment.

I am intrigued however on your (CX) view on Premium pax. I have the highest loyalty level with one of your regional competitors and I know that in the premium cabins there is a big difference, sometimes very significant in the fare I pay from say here to Europe and what other are paying on their way up from say Australia and NZ. In fact, I seem to pay the same for a journey length of approx. 50%. I suspect CX are not too dissimilar.

I am also aware that the premium cabins are populated with non rev, awards upgrades and ‘we are pleased to upgrade you’ pax.

Does this worry me? Not in the least. Am I that different from normal pax? I don’t think so as frequent flyers are not naïve.

I also see seat auctions frequently all over this globe and have yet to see any adverse reaction from fellow pax and view this as the operators looking to enhance their revenues as they do with DFs and the like.

So my question to you is – are CX pax that different?

(Ironically I flew back from Hong Kong last night and received one of those ‘we are pleased to upgrade you’ into 1st and I didn’t feel in any way uncomfortable, in fact the opposite was true, far better Champagne too).

[ranmar850]

Air NZ have been doing this for years! Works very well

Yes, it does, used it myself to upgrade to premium economy.And you know what? Gave me a taste for premium economy. they've gained a premium economy passenger. And, BTW, there were still plenty of vacant seats up there, and economy was full (ish). I think you could only use it to bid for next level up from your original booking, IIRC.

[Trafalgar]

I would like to second the comment just made by Max. Many of us are expats working thousands of miles from our extended families, and in many cases, our actual families. This desperate grab for a tiny bit of extra revenue is at the direct expense of the well being of it's expat employees. I work my rear off throughout the month, and when I have a block of 5 days off, I go back to London to see my wife and kiss my children. This small minded policy will put even that small nod to family life in jeopardy. I can't get my children places at school in HK (and one is a special needs and couldn't go to school here if he wanted to). I have no choice but to commute. If this proves difficult, then I will take 3 or more 'extended' periods each year....the roster can go to hell. As a senior trainer in the airline, that will now become my last concern. The attacks never seem to stop coming, so I will start fighting their style of war. :mad:

[Max Reheat]

ZFT and ranmar,

Thank you for your comments and unlike many they are both informative and interesting.

I have a question though, of ranmar,

In future, will you buy a Preium EY ticket at the outset or will you buy an EY ticket and upgrade it via auction closer to departure time?

That is the issue.

[ranmar850]

ZFT and ranmar,

Thank you for your comments and unlike many they are both informative and interesting.

I have a question though, of ranmar,

In future, will you buy a Preium EY ticket at the outset or will you buy an EY ticket and upgrade it via auction closer to departure time?

That is the issue

As I said, they have gained a premium economy passenger--I will book premium in future. It only actually saved me, in that instance, perhaps $200 on the fare. I assume everyone on that flight had the chance to upgrade, yet I would venture that very few indeed availed themselves of the offer--or bid very low. Quite possible, PER-AKL is full of Kiwis returning home, and they are a notoriously tight bunch ( (runs for cover as he speaks;))

Actually, I just recalled something from a long time ago. We were leaving HK on a flight to Bangkok, and had offered an upgrade at check-in to Marco Polo class. Didn't ask, it was just offered. We were asked to wait aside for a while, boarding passes finally issued, then the old Kai Tak immigration gate got us. Two large chinese family groups in front of us with documents not properly prepared, huge ledgers were dragged out, consulted, it took so long the flight closed before we got to the gate. Flight missed. Economy on the next flight. Connecting flight to be made,time would be tight, and CX ground staff at both ends excelled themselves. Arranged for us to disembark first, and whisked us through the diplomatic customs and immigration gates, to ensure we made our connections.

[Synchronize]

This airline is slowly morphing itself into a low cost carrier , tickets are selling at ever decreasing prices as competition increases . Emirates are still maintaining a good level of service in their premium cabins. I had the pleasure of a recent trip with them . paid full fare but it was worth it .

I remember when sitting in first class at CX was really something special, the food and service were amazing . the only things that seems to have improved are the seats and the IFE, everything else has gone downhill. Try and get a beer that isn't San mig Carlsberg or Heineken . Good luck !! What happened to the Caviar?

As to BNEA , in some instances our staff tickets are actually more expensive than some of the EY ticket holders who get upgraded for free . I understand the upgrade policy but it needs to be judiciously carried out so that the passengers who have forked over a not insignificant sum of money for their ticket are not sat next to a very obvious upgrade with some dubious personal habits

As to Max he has highlighted the heart of the problem , yes it was a poor choice of words but having seen what some passengers can do to a bathroom and then expect our girls to clean up after them, in some cases a hazmat suit would have been more appropriate than a uniform. I can understand where he is coming from . Unfortunately as ticket prices decrease so do some of the passengers acceptable standards of normal behavior .

Staff travel has always been a perk of the job and allowed Crew to get home to see family and friends when they could. We all joined under this understanding this has now effectively been torpedoed. Yes you can buy rebated tickets , but in many cases it just isn't worth it, standing by for flights that you have little or no chance of getting on all, the additional stress and hotel costs quickly mount up . you might just as well buy a full fare EY ticket and bid for upgrades with everyone else

I understand that some passengers may think this is petty and that we have this glamorous lifestyle , I regret to inform you, Not any more ! our conditions of service that we joined under have been continually eroded for years now and this for some will be the final push over the edge. A Small number of crew for very justifiable reasons have chosen to leave family in their home country and need the perk of staff travel . It has always been available on a sub load basis which we were fine with but usually it was possible to get away within a few days until now ,
And to those who think we are prima-donnas . Consider this, you are a manager in your company have been for years , working anti social hours, can't make a booking for a show because you don't know what you are doing next month or you are on standby , can't say yes to a dinner date more than a month in advance . And your boss walks in and says here is your new contract, sign or be fired . Oh and by the way, you will be working 30 % more for 20% less pay, your company car is gone, your expense account is gone and lunch is now 30 minutes max and we expect you to work odd weekends when it suits the company .
Well in your job you can simply more to another company in the approximate same management level . However if you had to start again in the mail room would you move ?Probably not !

We accept all those negatives to our social lives because when balanced out against the positives it was a price we chose to pay .Staff travel with a good expectation of getting on was one of the pluses Now it seems that has gone too

This industry is in a race to the bottom. I'm not sure how much longer airlines will be able to get qualified pilots , it isn't an industry that I would recommend to anyone starting out Which is very sad

Would I fly on a some of carriers available to me, Not a chance, Not under any circumstances . So you be the judge . Would you rather feel comfortable with the experience level in the flight deck or spend 12 hours or more sitting on the edge of your seat .Remember we get paid for what we do and what we CAN DO when things go horribly wrong

Erode things enough, the senior people will leave and the better qualified juniors will not be attracted to join This is not healthy for the airline industry

[Max Reheat]

Jeez, Synchronize.

I wish I had had the benefit of your education.

Well said sir!

[Trafalgar]

Synchronize. Well said. It's sad that the average member of the public has very little understanding of the unique nuances of our profession, and the 20+ year history of attacks against our terms and conditions. I don't expect sympathy, but i do expect understanding. That is lacking in both cases.

Regardless, my argument is with our management, not the public. The managers know that they have fatally undermined our ability to conduct a stable (!) family life, in any sense of the word. As mentioned earlier, if I have trouble getting to and from London to visit my family, after busting my 'b*lls' for weeks on end training, enduring disrupted rosters and generally being messed about, then they can be ASSURED that I will take matters into my own hands, and will ensure that I spend MORE time back in the UK than I would have otherwise each year. The roster considerations and the training task can get stuffed at that point.

All I ever expected was a tiny bit of consideration towards the FACT that most of the aircrew are expats, and have a specific need to be able to travel home reliably and comfortably. If that is gone, at the very LEAST I will spend the next year or so ensuring my own family needs are met. After that, if it all gets too hard, I will simply walk away. You can stuff your training needs where the sun never shines.

I hope the managers responsible are held to account once the inevitable chaos ensues with angry, reactionary and fed up aircrew. This is my 'red line'...in case that isn't plainly obvious.

[gileraguy]

I flew Crappy Pacific once and didn't think the hype was validated. I watched the hostess sprinting backwards down the isle holding up a bottle of Cognac, I barely managed to get her to stop. I'll bet she was upset that one of the scum down the back actually managed to get a sip out of her staff perk. Free Hot towels equals
Five Stars?!?!?

[Bob Hawke]

Maid Day, that made no sense at all.

[White None]

Maid Day - Well that cheered me up! Think you just insulted all the worlds half lucid Nutballs though?

[Synchronize]

Gileraguy,

Whilst I appreciate your sentiments about finally getting a sip of Cognac please allow me to enlighten you. Cognac is not and has never been a STAFF PERK ,
Crew have been fired before now for taking an opened bottle of wine off the aircraft . There is a no tolerance policy on this issue . The company would rather pour The opened bottles of top quality wine down the drain than permit staff to take the remains off the aircraft .
Secondly very few of our cabin crew actually drink, so Cognac is of no interest to the majority of them .

Sadly what you witnessed was a cabin crew member who like the rest of us is held in distain by the company, given a lousy contract which is continually being changed and eroded ,(always to the companies benefit) and basically no longer cares about the job or keeping the passengers happy . Very unfortunately you our traveling public suffer . I find this situation very sad, and would like to apologize to you .
I used to be very proud to say that I worked for Cathay . In those heady days when enthusiasm amongst the crew was high, anytime a typhoon hit Hong Kong we would leave our families to deal with the inevitable leaking and flooding. Go to the airport on days off to help get our passengers to where they wanted to be .Today I won't even answer the phone to help out .

Basically when you as an employer utilize the tactic of
"the beatings will continue until moral improves " inevitable it never does, it just gets worse and the paying passengers suffer as a result .
But as long as there are passengers to fill available seats and the company continues to make obscene profits nothing is ever going to change

We as crew are prisoners of a seniority system, so moving to another carrier is a non starter for most of us . However the situation has become so diabolical that should one of the more respected carriers offer direct entry commands at salaries equal to or better than ours. I would venture to guess that Cathay would see a mass migration.

Then and only then would management sit up and take notice . Believe me from that point onwards there would be an immediate shift in management's attitude towards a living wage and decent working conditions .

Until that time you sir ,and the traveling public will not see any improvement .

I would like to pose a question to you . How many pay rises have you been fortunate enough to enjoy since 1999 ? I on the other hand have suffered 3 pay cuts with one small rise based on the new lower figure .
I can assure you that inflation is very alive and well in Hong Kong , my salary purchasing power has decreased steadily over the years, yet the company refuse to even acknowledge that there is inflation . They are quick enough to put up the price of tickets and the fuel surcharge , reduce the quality and choice of the food on board to increase profits So as a result my salary continues to be eroded .

As I said as long as passengers fill the seats they don't care . It would seem that the airline industry as a whole is in a race to the bottom .

I used to get a buzz when passengers would get off the aircraft and tell us that they had had a wonderful flight and the service was amazing . Those days are sadly long gone The direct result of a managerial stance of aggression to its staff and make as much money as possible .
Does it really matter whether you are the 6th or 4th richest person in the UK ?
What happened to pride in the service you offer your customers ? As long as you are still making a decent profit .!
In this industry service comes right behind safety , and until the staff are treated and paid enough for them to cherish the job it's only going to get worse unfortunately
I'm saddened to hear of your treatment but hopefully this will help you to understand why it occurred

[Freehills]

However the situation has become so diabolical that should one of the more respected carriers offer direct entry commands at salaries equal to or better than ours. I would venture to guess that Cathay would see a mass migration.

However, if a respected airline did that, they would instantaneously be shut down by their pilots in a strike... Can you imagine the reaction of (say) Delta or Lufthansa pilots to their airline deciding to bring in DEC?

[Synchronize]

Thank you free hills
And right there is the issue we face, seniority which is both good and bad but its why we can't move freely and it's something the airlines use to their benefit

And I agree with your sentiments about their pilots shutting it down. Good for them at least they have industrial protection and I would back them 100%
I was merely trying to point out to some of the readers of this post the problems we face,I was suggesting that if that scenario was available I think a number of people would choose to go
But I have heard it said so many times before " if you don't like your job then leave " In this career it's not easy

[Synchronize]

On the other side of the coin why should he have to resign from C&T with the associated pay cut simply because the company has decided to take this action
As soon as he does he will spend most of his time in NY and will feel even less inclined to fight for a seat on a European flight

And a roster with reserve every month is stable ?

[Trafalgar]

Dan. I get it, you don't like people who train. And I also get that you don't think i'm entitled to an opinion on the matter. Live and let live. I'll reiterate my point for those who can see the matter a bit more clearly: I do a job for the company, and it requires me to endure rather more than the usual amount of roster disruption. I don't mind 'going that extra mile' under normal circumstances. However, part of that 'compact' with the company is that there should be some consideration in the other direction. I commute, as do many of us (line pilots as well as C&Ters'). Up to now, there has been a fair opportunity to get to and from my home port (LHR in my case) regularly, in business. I work 90-95hrs/mo, and usually half my trips are changed at short notice. Long days, then followed up by hours of report writing. Again, I am happy to do my part to keep this operation functioning. All I ask is that I am able to visit my home regularly, see my disabled son and listen to my wife's whining :ok:. CX has now put that unwritten arrangement at risk. My response will be to do what I HAVE to do to spend time at home. CX will then be faced with the resulting chaos in the training dept.

I am only commenting on my own concerns. I can assure you that there are hundreds of us, many in T & C, many on the line, who will be badly affected by this greedy new money grab. What they haven't figured out is how much of an unintended consequence they will suffer from.

Don't feel sorry for me or my own personal situation. I personally don't care what you think on that score. Do think however how this affects you personally. The next time you show up for staff travel, and find that: a) you can't get on, or b) only in economy....you will quickly realise that this is a result of nothing more than CX being terminally greedy.

I have stated that in my case, I will take action to protect my family life. If that disrupts the training roster, too bad. They are the ones who forced this situation on me. I have always 'done my part' to keep CX a viable and functioning airline. The least I can expect in return is that they respect the fact that I need a viable and functioning family....

[AnAmusedReader]

I like your posts but there will be some 'upstairs' who don't.

Unless you are deliberately laying a false trail (of sorts) it can't be too hard to pin down who you might be from the snippets you have revealed. I have resisted the temptation to do it myself. Good luck with your commuting.

[Trafalgar]

Amused. Thanks, I appreciate your comment. I am certain they know who I am, but I don't particularly care. I've been here long enough to be entitled to my opinion. I simply state the facts. They are creating a situation that is extremely detrimental to the simple maintenance of a stable family life for hundreds of commuters. I work hard on their behalf, and to now deliberately crush my ability to balance that work ethic with looking after my family is a step too far. Happy to have them call me in to 'discuss'. I will tell them exactly what I think. They need to hear it.

The sickening realisation is that I am certain I will continue to see the usual list of directors and other senior managers comfortably (and regularly) traveling to and from London at their convenience.

[Trafalgar]

Rod, the simple fact that underpins my point is this: CX relies on expat pilots (for the most part). Because of that, there is an expectation to be able to manage our affairs properly in our home countries. I joined the company when that was explicitly agreed and accommodated. They expect more from me than the average, and I provide that. I expect something in return, at the very least the understanding that I wasn't born and bred in Kowloon. If you wish to ignore this point, so be it. It's the company that is trying our tolerance, not the other way around. Also, do you truly think it realistic that none of us employed would be in the C and T department? My point was that I will leave T and C if they continue to make my life impossible to manage. There are literally hundreds of commuters in this airline, by choice or necessity. The latest scheme will result in untold frustration, anger and resistance. That result is not in doubt.

[kenfoggo]

Trafalgar- with such an arrogant attitude of entitlement perhaps you should reconsider your employment status and retire? You could then spend as much time as you wish sorting out your domestics. Please.

[Captain Dart]

Sorry to put the boot in, but I too have no sympathy for those who willingly put their hand up for training and then complain about workload and life style.

And their training of pilots who are on lesser conditions than their own is yet another element of 'the race to the bottom'.

[Trafalgar]

hmmm, arrogant and entitled? how exactly? I simply stated the obvious, and the affect it will have on their thousands of expat staff. The same staff who work a very difficult job, dealing with fatigue, disruption, and at the same time trying to manage two homes; the one they have in HK, and the one they must obviously maintain in their home countries. There is also the fact that bases have been 'frozen' for several years, making it even more difficult to deal with the expat issues.

I was convinced to leave my home country and come to HK. I was told the following: 'work hard and we will reward you, and provide certain benefits'. I moved 7000 miles on that promise. One of those benefits was staff travel. Staff travel is only a benefit if there is in fact a reasonable opportunity to actually get on an aircraft. Otherwise it is worthless. Without that benefit, many of the staff cannot maintain any sort of balanced life. Many of us need to regularly fly back to our home countries. CX knows this, and should be expected to recognise it as a necessity,as they BENEFIT from the efforts and skill of that same expat workforce.

It doesn't matter how you define the points i'm making. In the end, the company will find that their operation will become even more chaotic than it already is, and it will be directly attributable to the staff affected by this taking action to keep the balance between work and family where it needs to be. I work to live, not live to work.

Oh, and Dart, my comment is solely directed towards the company's attempt to effectively take away staff travel. I guess you don't seem to understand that. Well, you will the next time you and your family (i'm assuming you have one) try to avail yourself of the 'benefit'. Don't exactly know what me being in C & T has to do with it, other than I was explaining what I do, and why I expect at least a common airline industry benefit to maintain it's value.

[Trafalgar]

Dan, as you say, it really isn't worth it any more. I have no further interest in STC, and the company doesn't respect the effort put in (as evidenced by destroying the ability of it's HK based C&T staff to effectively commute). Happy to throw it away, and that day is probably here.

[Synchronize]

To all those attacking trafalgar , whilst some have valid points to make you are ALL missing the most important point

This is going to affect every single one of us, every time we go on leave, travel for a Funeral or a wedding . Or simply to attend a function

With this new policy getting a seat on rebate travel is going to be almost impossible unless you like EY. Personally I don't
But this is our future and it's not looking very bright

[Fly747]

Where is this new policy? Can someone provide a copy or a link to it please.

[Kitsune]

Trafalgar, stop whining, resign and go work for a UK based airline, with your experience you'll be in the LH seat pretty soon. Alternatively, suck it up, it was your choice in the first place. :rolleyes:

[mngmt mole]

Kitsune. I don't see anything he's saying as 'whining'. He is making a valid point about a change in policy that dramatically affects hundreds of the airlines commuters. You are showing a 'don't give a sh*t' attitude because it probably doesn't affect you. That is the problem with our pilot group: if a particular issue doesn't affect 'me', then 'im alright Jack'. Also, your comment about his 'self-imposed' family problem is gratuitous and crass. I know the man, and he is dealing with a difficult health issue pertaining to his son. He can't have the family in HK because of that, and there are no bases available. He joined (as did all of us) with a specific offer involving staff travel. What CX has just gone and done is basically reduce it's value to '0'. Is that acceptable to you? What other changes of policy that result in a degradation to the value of your job would you accept? Please, do send a letter to management and let them know that this is acceptable. You obviously seem unperturbed about basically having your staff travel taken away. Oh wait, are you IN management...? Just curious. That would be the only reason your comments make sense.

[raven11]

Trafalgar
You raise some valid points, and I share your frustrations. It saddens me to see our (pilots) concerns, seemingly, ignored or supplanted. Every pilot I fly with tells me how frustrated, fatigued, and fed up they are with the never ending cuts.....to pay, benefits, travel policy, rest, training, crewing......

It's taken 20 years of cutting to get to where we as the pilot community of Cathay find ourselves today. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the time has come for the company to institute a pilot "get well" program. They need to assign a senior, a very senior manager, with the authority and latitude to canvass, study, and then institute changes. It may already be too late, but this proactive approach may prevent the tipping point from being reached.

If not for purely altruistic reasons, then they should do it for the money! As smart business people the loss in dollar value that can be attached to poor pilot morale should be easy to calculate.

Sadly, I don't see this happening until the pilot resignations, or the crew control chaos, accelerate.......it's too bad because, as Trafalger has expressed, real frustrations exist.

[Kitsune]

Staff travel has always been, and always will be, on a space available basis. There will be the same number of seats available, just a different distribution. The ROE of CX is bloody awful, and you can't blame the shareholders for demanding that the management (?) use any device possible to increase it. The opposite is true, and while the affected staff are not willing or able to demonstrate that the bottom line is adversley affected by such actions they will continue to squeeze, as any management would. That's 'market forces' for you...:yuk:

[otis cornbread]

https://upgrade.cathaypacific.com/offer/CathayPacific?lang=en_US

[twotigers]

Interesting that BA puts Staff with tickets ahead of Pax upgrades.

The total opposite of CX

At handover to the airport, a telex list will be sent by DUT, which will show the
priority of people to upgrade if necessary.
The order of these are:

1.Staff not in their cabin of eligibility (bookable and premium standby)

2.Space Available requests that are still outstanding

3.A list of prioritised passengers if further operational upgrades are required (in oversales situations)


Discretionary Upgrade Tool (DUT) (http://www.share-pdf.com/a238a440e45d47dc89b65d9371ac6853/DUT%20EurAfSAm%2008APR13%20v1.htm)

[mngmt mole]

An ex Uni colleague is employed with BA at a 'high level' in their management. Spoke last night with him, and this new CX policy came up. He told me the following. BA have a specific favouring of their staff in the upgrade policy for ONE main reason: staff morale is 'crucial' (his word) to the maintenance of the airline operation. Says it all really. He said they would love to upsell the seats, but to remove the staff travel perk from their employees (effectively what CX is doing) would almost certainly cost them far more grief and cost than any perceived gain to the bottom line. He told me that whenever they've tried to tweak their staff travel benefits in a negative direction, it has resulted in a measurable and worrying increase in staff sickness and resignation (particularly amongst the cabin crew).

As Trafalgar has pointed out, this new policy will effectively remove staff travel as a benefit to staff. If you think that's ok (apparently a few of you do based on your comments :ugh:), then just let the company proceed without any reaction. If you don't, then I suggest you let them know through your own actions in response. I know what my approach to this will be...

[kenfoggo]

Cathay have a self ticketing staff travel agreement with one world partner British Airways. Two flights every night to LHR, seats available, get treated like a human being. Why bother with Cathay.

[Freehills]

Economy only I thought with BA