617 Squadron - After The Dams

[John Nichol]

In case anyone is at a loose end this Bank Holiday Monday evening:

"What The Dambusters Did Next" - Channel 5, 2100

What the Dambusters did next: The missions that changed the course of WWII | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/477921/What-the-Dambusters-did-next)

[Wander00]

THE film is also on next week

[langleybaston]

On Sunday last, that which was nearest to the anniversary, one hymn in our church was to the tune. Those in the know [including Mrs LB] smiled broadly.

Pity I missed it, because I was bell-ringing in another church.

[smujsmith]

Thanks for the heads up on that one John,

I have set the system to record it, if I fail to remember to watch it live.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

John ... I hope you don't mind me adding the following to your thread ...

If you were a former Air Cadet and flew in a 1 AEF Chipmunk from RAF Manston in the late 60's/70's and still have your 3822 ... do check to see if you have a F/L Hamilton recorded ... if you do ... you might be interested to know that your pilot was in fact Squadron Leader Malcolm "Mac" Hamilton DFC of 617 Squadron when Group Captain Leonard Cheshire was CO. Amongst many wartime missions ... he flew on the attack against the Tirpitz.

Sadly he passed away in April 2008 ...

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Hello, John. Long time no see. Thanks for the heads up. I can now receive C5 again (with a bigger dish for the Southern Europe Astra crisis) and your post came just in time. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

The Dambusters - Red Bull Soapbox Race 2013 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/LVUc5QZ7234)

ThrungeSSC Dambusters - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PXbHb-UlDI0)

617 Sqn Dambusters - Red Bull Soap Box Race- London 2013 - Go Pro Crash Footage (Camera 1) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/RpL0XPzqOaw)

Redbull Soapbox Race 2013. RAF fail - YouTube (http://youtu.be/hE40FZxPM5A)

[John Nichol]

Coffman - nope, wasn't a cadet. But I have read quite a bit about Hamilton - amazing career.

Courtney Mil - you too. Hope all's well.

Best to all

[Melchett01]

THE film is also on next week

The film is on this evening before the documentary (Channel 5, all times BST)

1830 - The Dambusters
2100 - What the Dambusters did Next
2230 - Raid on Rommel

Not a bad way of spending an evening, has to be better than Eastenders and Coronation Street or whatever they usually put on.

[Melchett01]

Given the recent furore that cost BBC Radio Devon DJ David Lowe his job, I wonder if anyone from Channel 5 will be quitting having shown an unmolested version of the film?

[NutLoose]

Having watched 12 years a Slave, it must have been full of Black Labradors, they kept calling out its name, but not one appeared...... Curious that.

Point being, that too is a film that uses the word in a historical context... Odd isn't it, that one made last year does not have the world up in arms, but one made in 1954 does. And both portray a factual use of the word.

[Richard Woods]

Cracking documentary, and nice to see a good amount of the last 617 Sqn Lancaster, which I was blocked from recovering back to the UK a few years back. Maybe with all the renewed interest I ought to try again - even if its just to stop the flow of parts showing up on ebay.

Shame the expert wasn't slightly more clued up; the turret examined wasn't the mid upper, its the shell of the FN5 front turret. Had the camera been poked in the back of the bomb bay, you can still see the Tallboy shackles.

[big v]

Shame about the poor continuity work - period film and photos displayed back to front stood out amongst standard TV production errors when dealing with military aviation. And as to the presenter's incredulity that the crews went back to the Dortmund-Ems canal after not dropping on the first pass...............

I thought it a good programme although there was little of note revealed by all that examination of top secret files that wasn't in Paul Brickhill's book "the Dam Busters" from decades ago.

Maybe it would have been better if the programme presenter hadn't started the thread. I'm sure I'd still have found it and watched it.

Rgds,

Vernon

[BEagle]

I think you're being a bit harsh there, Vern me old.

A lot of viewers have short memories and won't know who JN is - so the intro. was pitched correctly, in my view. Also, the programme was aimed at the genpub rather than at experts, so the presentation manner was entirely appropriate. The V3 tunnels were astounding and the interviews with German survivors added an extra, very welcome dimension.

Yes, there were some continuity errors (I'm pretty sure that 617 never flew the Lancaster B II, for example), but overall a cracking programme well presented.

Now, could we have something on the Lincoln / Canberra / Vulcan / Tornado era and a look ahead to the F-35B please, John?

[Tankertrashnav]

Very enjoyable and informative, to me at any rate.

I kept waiting for somebody to say "unlike that bastard Gibson" after praising Cheshire's leadership style and personal qualities, but they probably felt those sentiments were best left unsaid!

[dragartist]

I enjoyed it. I did not know of the V3 gun or the detail of the Tirpitz and Canal raids. Well done John. Thanks for posting.

[Navaleye]

I watched the film and the above programme and enjoyed both. There piece on the Dortmund Ems can canal was a bit vague. Other than that, BZ.

[Daddie Jaffa]

The one question I have after watching it , is what is the future of the wreckage of 'Easy Elsie' as it is the only known 617 Survivor/link to the crews courage.
Surely there is some merit in recovering the wreckage before the trophy hunters strip it out further and destroy a valuable peice of Heritage.

[Fitter2]

Some interesting footage I hadn't seen before, particularly of the remains of E-Elsie; the implication that much of this was unknown or secret was stretching things a bit. I recall reading about most if not all of the ops in Paul Brickhill's book, serialised in John Bull magazine in the 1950s. Certainly the Ems Canal, Bielefeld viaduct, 'ski sites' and supergun, U-boat pens and Tirpitz. And the D-day 'window' phantom fleet.

[goudie]

Most enjoyable programme to watch. As has been said, pitched for general consumption but still interesting for former RAF old codgers. I'd forgotten about the 'supergun'. Chilling to think of the consequences had it become operational. Humble respect, as always, to those courageous crews.

[John Nichol]

Thanks for the comments chaps. To cover a few points:

Cracking documentary, and nice to see a good amount of the last 617 Sqn Lancaster, which I was blocked from recovering back to the UK a few years back. Maybe with all the renewed interest I ought to try again - even if its just to stop the flow of parts showing up on ebay.

Thanks - & we have looked at bringing it back. Tricky proposition - very sensitive.

Shame the expert wasn't slightly more clued up; the turret examined wasn't the mid upper, its the shell of the FN5 front turret.

That it was the MU turret was verified by many other sources.

Had the camera been poked in the back of the bomb bay, you can still see the Tallboy shackles.

We did but didn't use the footage

Shame about the poor continuity work - period film and photos displayed back to front stood out amongst standard TV production errors when dealing with military aviation.

We knew this, (Rob Owen - 617 Sqn Historian was very forensic and we would have been lost without him) and for various production/editorial reasons decided to leave it as it is.

Yes, there were some continuity errors (I'm pretty sure that 617 never flew the Lancaster B II, for example), but overall a cracking programme well presented.

True Beags, (& we didn't actually say it was a "617" Lanc!) - but it is the best colour footage available so we ran with it!

Maybe it would have been better if the programme presenter hadn't started the thread. I'm sure I'd still have found it and watched it.

Eh? You maybe...but plenty of others were pleased to be pointed in the direction. Still....you can't please everyone!

I recall reading about most if not all of the ops in Paul Brickhill's book, serialised in John Bull magazine in the 1950s.

True - but the vast majority of people simply don't know the story. Especially those younger than you!

Anyway, it garnered 1.1 million viewers on first showing which is pretty fab for Ch5 so thanks for watching.

& many thanks to all who contacted me via social media @JohnNicholRAF to offer comment. Much appreciated.

[Basil]

Now, could we have something on the Lincoln / Canberra / Vulcan / Tornado era and a look ahead to the F-35B please, John?
. . and the Argosy - don't forget the Argosy ;)

OK, hat, coat, door . .

P.s. Watched it - Great, thank you.
Hadn't realised the attrition rate was so high.
We attended, with humility, the unveiling of The Memorial.

[Navaleye]

John,

There's a very good book called 'A hell of bomb" outstanding reference material. I'm not sure the Grand Slams at Velentin/Farce actually penetrated, having been there it looks to me like they just spalled and the concussion from this did the rest.

[Melchett01]

Well, for what it's worth, as a, ahem, 30 something who hasn't read Paul Brickhill's book and has spent a good deal of the past 5 years in Joint jobs, I thought it was a thoroughly entertaining and informative programme. I have been to La Cupole before and seen it from the German side, but never from the RAF perspective before now.

[PPRuNe Pop]

John,


I enjoyed it very much. The content was fantastic except for one raid that was a 'cracker' - the Saumur tunnel. There is ONE good shot of the dead centre drop and a great credit to the BA and crew.


It could have course been a much longer doc but beggars can't be choosers.


Coff

I first met Mac Hamilton at a Biggin Hill Air Fair, an incredible character and only 21 when he was a Captain with 617. For interest, Micky Martin was said to have been the absolute master of low flying - hard to argue with, but Warrant Officer Tom McLean, who was a tail gunner on Duffy's aircraft, and given the job by the 'boss' of all bosses, Leonard Cheshire, shot down a couple of 110's and a Me 109 on their way home from a raid that got pulled. Tom Mclean said of Mac that he was the finest of the best low flyer he had ever flown with. Mac Hamilton lived a couple of miles from me and I developed the knack of getting him talking. I'll never forget it. It was he, by the way, who designed the blazer badge of the Dams raid.


Anyway, John. I shall look again and again at your doc - it was terrific. Adding the remains of EASY was more real than anything else and still exists. Maybe, John you should gather it up. Sorry I cannot lend you a hand.


Who could ever imagine the bravery, guts and skills of 617 - the best of the best.

[langleybaston]

The post-showing comments have surprised me, so I wind my neck in by 80%.

Being in my 70s and having sucked up/in just about everything published and shown about 617, I sat in the armchair, glass of vino collapso in hand, and was making disgruntled noises at the rate of one a minute, so much so that I got a rollocking from Mrs LB "if its that bad turn it off!"

So it was me, not the programme, after all, and I have become a curmudgeon and a grumpy old sod in addition to all my other virtues.

Did I miss the reference to low-level marking by aircraft other than the rather large and slow Lancaster, which was surely pivotal, and worth the inferred 20% whinge inferred above? And did I miss reference to, shall we say, another distinguished squadron in the Tirpitz coverage?

[Wander00]

Live not that far from Saumur, so really ought to go and look at the tunnel. I am told the raids are commemorated by a plaque.

[Richard Woods]

John,

Regarding recovery - mine was called off in 2008 at the 11th hour due to land access issues. As most of the permit documents are still sat here in my desk, I still intend to try again.

The Mid-upper was removed entirely to facilitate the fitting of a Wellington overload fuel tank.. necessary for range rather than operating out of Russia again. The only turret frame on site is the FN5 - though in the rest of the wreckage is a portion of fuselage containing the mid upper turret ring.

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/lancregistry/images/lanc-nf920-12.jpg

Regards,

Rich

[Evalu8ter]

I thought it was an absorbing documentary, well done John and co.

Yes, a few "errors" but I imagine that Pprune was not the tgt audience; there's not enough archive footage to hold a 90 minute piece on 617 together for the interested public . IMHO the mix of archive and footage of 474 and 611 worked well - I thought the audio of crew banter was wonderful; reminded me of several long days on ops (though with better manners and language...).

As to what they did next? I had my logbooks copied by Hendon and on handing them back to me the archivist commented that I'd captained the same aircraft as a Dambuster; Micky Martin qualified on the Wessex when AOC 38 Gp and I'd flown the same cab in flying training. Just shows how in many ways this is still modern history.....

[langleybaston]

Mickey Martin when staish at RAF Nicosia routinely bummed cigarettes AND a light off me at his personal Met Brief. He then went next door into Ops and did exactly the same thing.

He did a few rather spectacular low-levels with a Hastings, as I recall.

[dagenham]

was it micky who looped a grand slam or upkeep lanc ? I seem to recall grand slam due to the extra power of the engines and being stripped out so much to gain the range... but uncle al might be playing tricks

seem to remember a tale being told about some years ago

[CoffmanStarter]

PPRuNe Pop ...

Mac was a most generous and modest man ... I have fond memories of him and others of his vintage during my nine years voluntary service with 1 AEF. I vividly remember parking my "heap" one Saturday morning (70's) in the Car Park when Mac pulled up and spied a copy of "Pilot" on my backseat ... the feature article was "Flying The Lancaster" ... he asked if he could borrow it saying ... "I just want to see if there was anything new to know" ... much laughter then ensued :ok:

Coff.

[NutLoose]

was it micky who looped a grand slam or upkeep lanc ? I seem to recall grand slam due to the extra power of the engines and being stripped out so much to gain the range... but uncle al might be playing tricks

seem to remember a tale being told about some years ago

I read an article many moons ago about one of the upkeep Lancs an air test after it had been stripped of weight for the raid, a B-17 came up behind it and they would normally leave the Lanc standing, the Lanc pilot throttled back to allow him to pull level then opened it up and barrel rolled it around the B-17 before leaving the stunned B-17 crew behind

[Lima Juliet]

JN

I also watched your TV program right after the classic movie. I thought it was very good. However, please note I only say 'very good' and not excellent.

Am I being harsh? I don't think so. The back-to-front registration on the black and white photos, the use of the B Mk II and the reference to the mid upper were all spoilers. If you have a chance to give feedback to the producer please tell him/her that it is the final detail that makes all the difference - this exact attention to detail was the difference between a good bomber crew and an exceptional one (like those on 617 in WWII).

By the way, there are 2 airworthy Merlin engined Lancs with ample footage of take offs instead of a Bristol Hercules engined one (I know you know this - but it did detract). Furthermore, there is very good period colour footage for Merlin engined ones in 'Night Bombers':

Night Bombers - YouTube

Anyway, as I said, I would give it 'high to above average' in your TV program logbook. :ok:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

By the way, some of the Lancaster B Mk I (special) have no front turret either, although I believe "E" did?

http://lowres-picturecabinet.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/162/main/2/743522.jpg

[just another jocky]

John, petty criticisms apart (this was aimed at a basic audience, not a bunch of highly enthusiastic and knowledgeable critics), I thoroughly enjoyed watching it tonight (recorded). Having served 2 tours on 617, I was aware of most of the raids you covered but certainly not in the detail nor with some of the personal testimony although I was lucky enough to be on the Sqn for our 50th Anniversary and met some of the surviving Dams Raid boys as well as some from other raids too including the successful Tirpitz raid.

An honour to have been a modern-day member of that valiant, brave & pioneering squadron and thank you for an excellent job which is now preserved for our children & grand-children to watch over the years to come.

Well done m8. :ok:

[BEagle]

Basil wrote: . . and the Argosy - don't forget the Argosy
;)

I was referring to 617's post-WW2 era with the Lincoln / Canberra / Vulcan / Tornado (and before long, F-35B). The squadron assuredly did NOT fly the Whistling Tit!

[Lima Juliet]

JAJ

Whilst I agree it might appear "petty" there is a 2nd order effect here. If JN's program becomes the preserved reference for "our children & grandchildren for years to come" then there won't be anyone around to correct the errors. That is why it is so essential for the production team to get it absolutely right during the final production. I'm sure there are many around the world that believe that the Americans captured the Enigma and also tried to jump a fence to Switzerland on a Triumph whilst a POW!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the program a lot. I thought JN came over well. But I do feel it's a shame that a couple of hours research by some SMEs on the finer detail via Google/Bing wasn't done - or even a screening via JN's mates. He even drank a few beers with me and a few others a fortnight ago in London and we would have given our services for free whilst downing a few real ales! I do have ~50hrs Lancs as well! :ok:

LJ

[just another jocky]

LJ, I wasn't specifically referring to your post but there will always be some detail that is missed or incorrect, no matter how hard you try. If the film was aimed at us, I'd agree but I doubt whether a kid is really going to even notice whether mid-upper is missing or not and if they don't, does that level of detail really matter in this case? Too mush focus on detail would probably mean the programme was never done in the first place, or at least with much less scope. They want it done well enough, not perfectly.

As long it is recorded somewhere for those of use with the penchant for detail, then that is what does matter.

JMHO of course.

[Lima Juliet]

JAJ

Your opinion is well made and I agree that we would be poorer without the documentary ever being made. In this digital age, would it be so hard for media companies to go back and correct errors like this? That way people might watch it again via re-runs, DVDs and iplayers?

In my experience of being in documentaries in the past (in a far more minor way than JN, I hasten to add!), the media production team would often take offence to any criticism of their final cut - which would kind of make a nonsense of a final showing! So I say this in support of JN, that it is often the inflexibility of the documentary production team that serves to introduce such errors.

Just a thought - I'll zip-lip for now.

LJ

[smujsmith]

I see no reason why anyone should have a problem with someone connected with the programme highlighting it here. Surely if there were a bunch with an interest in the subject matter, they would be attendant on PPRUNE mil? I wonder Vernon at your observation #13. I would seriously expect the OP to be of genuine intent, to inform not advertise, on this thread. Thanks again for the heads up JN, its nice to have someone on the inside.

Smudge :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

John,

I enjoyed it very much. Thanks for highlighting it to us - I would have missed it otherwise because we only tend to try to see UK TV here in the south of France if there's something on we know about.

Ta!:ok:

[Basil]

BEagle, The squadron assuredly did NOT fly the Whistling Tit!
Ah, sorry - should have done more research :O

[BSweeper]

John

I enjoyed it very much so well done even though I was brought up on the book and still read it's every nook and crevice. Heroes all (and didn't the survivors still look young) so it's always good to be reminded of their very special braveness.

Mrs Sweep stayed up until 10.30 to watch it which is unprecedented, so all credit to you (and the crew).


The Sweep

[4mastacker]

Over on Arrse, there is a comment that there are two graves for Nigger at Scampton; one outside the hangar, the other (alleged real one) being on the other side of the airfield. During the whole of my time at Scampton, I was only ever aware of the grave outside the hangar. Can anyone throw some light on whether or not there is, in fact, a second grave?

[smujsmith]

I always understood that the Groundcrew dealt with Nigger, and buried him behind the Hangar. I think I once had the honour of visiting his resting place, though never posted to Scampton. I've just watched the programme again and wonder at the sacrifice these blokes, and the rest of Bomber Command, put up with. I doubt I would last long in facing the constant push for more ops that they did. I'm grateful that John Nichol informed us of the programme, I'm sure it made many of us aware of the activities of this very famous squadron.

Smudge:ok:

[diginagain]

I always understood that the Groundcrew dealt with Nigger,Quite possibly.

[The Oberon]

There was a myth at Scampton that the dog's name had been changed to Nigger to allow the release of Paul Brickhill's book and the film.


The dogs real name was C**t.


Hat, coat.......

[Hempy]

There was a myth at Scampton that the dog's name had been changed to Nigger to allow the release of Paul Brickhill's book and the film.


The dogs real name was C**t.


Hat, coat.......

Name gets around. I recall the names of 3 'saved from the pot' Vietnamese dogs named Downdammit, Yardcrap and C**t. Not sure if he(?) was related though :)

[Helen49]

Splendid programme, thanks for the 'heads up'. I wish I had recorded it.......will have to wait for the repeat!

Having recently read the 'Dambusters Raid' by John Sweetman it was good to have some more information on 617 squadron to fill in gaps in the jig-saw.

Well done JN and all concerned.

[Tashengurt]

Well I enjoyed it. At least it wasn't presented by some z list half-wit with no insight or knowledge of the material.
The supergun was a new one on me. That would've been quite the game changer.
Funny that we get the same comments about lack of accuracy and detail every time a documentary is discussed here.
Doesn't seem hard to appreciate that both have to be slave to the need to produce an hour long programme with enough nice footage and pace to keep your average mop interested and make money.



Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[TEEEJ]

Well done John and all concerned. :ok: Available until 23:59 30 Sep 2014 at following link.

What The Dambusters Did Next | What The Dambusters Did Next | Channel 5 (http://www.channel5.com/shows/what-the-dambusters-did-next/episodes/what-the-dambusters-did-next)

[spekesoftly]

I wish I had recorded it.......will have to wait for the repeat!
Not long to wait. It's repeated on Saturday 31/05/2014 at 17:45 BST on CH5.

[goudie]

I was on 617 when it reformed in '58 and quite naturally the
dams raid' was a popular topic. Pictures before and after the raid were everywhere to be seen.
When the Queen Mum paid a visit to present Colours to the Sqdn
a very large mock-up of the Mohne dam was constructed in the hangar. A model Lancaster then came flying over, suspended on wire, there was a very small explosion, and the dam collapsed. As an aside, prior to the QM'S visit the protocol chaps were most anxious about the small explosion, apparently there is a strict limit to how large an explosion can be in the vicinity of Royalty.
I've mentioned this before but on a trip to Nellis in '59 we were hailed as the 'dambuster boys' by the Las Vegas press. Everyone was rather embarrassed.

two graves for Nigger at Scampton; one outside the hangar,
I'm pretty certain Nigger's grave was on the left as one came out the side door of the hangar, on the airfield side.
It was said that crews often peed on the grave for good luck!

[Motleycallsign]

I had the great privilege to know a member of one of the successful Bielefeld Viaduct Raid crews. I was able to take him to both the viaduct and Moehne Dam on a visit to Germany in the 70's, same spec of grit seemed to hit him at both locations. It was moving to see tears in his eyes. RIP Bill.

Good programme John, shame that the producers, as previously commented upon, didn't quite get all their facts correct. I have kept the recording of this and also a previous programme re the Tirpitz raid shown recently on C4

[John Nichol]

Thanks for the comments (good and bad) guys – always appreciated.

I did wonder how to respond to the ‘nay-sayers’ – indeed I had a bet with the Executive Producer (a life-long supporter of the military and the RAF in particular – look up his CV) about exactly how long it would take the Pprune ‘experts’ to point out their perception of the ‘errors’. Needless to say, I’m now a tenner better off. So thanks for that!

I can only say that those of you who claim to know this curious land of TV and dismiss the efforts of ‘producers’ couldn’t be more wrong – the team who made this documentary went above and beyond the call of duty to get it right. They were immersed in this story in a way they have not been on previous documentaries.

That said, I’m the first to admit that none of us are perfect (apart from some ‘hair-splitters’ who inhabit this interweb).

Still, to answer a few points – we did bring in ‘real experts’ (and not those from the pub!) who know the 617 Sqn story inside out. One, Rob Owen, the official 617 historian, has dedicated his life to the facts and went through the programme with a fine-tooth comb. (Thanks again Rob – we would have been lost without you!).

He pointed out the use of the BII footage (acknowledged on screen!) and the reversal of the photo. Again – these were not ‘mistakes’ but calculated production decisions involving cost/editorial/visual/available factors.

Without wanting to press this point too far – the BBMF Lanc is not 617, nor is Just Jane, nor was some other footage & audio on the ground and in the air. But that’s not the point! – It is about bringing available resources together to engagingly tell a story of heroism, sacrifice and service - and by God that story was well told!

To those who say we didn’t cover certain ops – very true. Harumph away, but it would have been impossible to do so and we chose the ones that could be best illustrated on screen.

There is no point in me addressing every single perceived ‘error’ line by line – there are some who will never be happy unless attempting to prove their own expertise ahead of others.

But I’ll say this – I’ve been in contact with a number veterans and their families since broadcast – they could not have been more generous in their praise for the programme and gratitude for highlighting the bravery and expertise of 617 Sqn.

Interestingly, not one of those men who went to war on our behalf so many years ago mentioned the reversal of an old photo. Funny that.

[Jackw106]

Working away got back last night and watched the programme along with a few others, well done all

[PPRuNeUser0211]

John,
I lurk a lot and very rarely take the time to post but, having been involved in a documentary a few years back, I know just how much of a struggle the "TV effect" can be when you're trying to get things right. Suffice to say I thought you guys did a brilliant job with the documentary and managed to bring some tales of daring do to the sofa world of today very successfully. Good job, and please pass on all the congratulations you see here to the guys who made it. I know some of the researchers and runners work very hard on programmes like this for very little reward. BZ to all of them.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Throughly enjoyed the program, watched it this morning whilst tussling with jetlag (I must be getting old).

At the risk of reigniting somewhat dampened flames though, isn't it a slightly more senior squadron that is generally accepted as having ultimately sunk the Tirpitz?

[Lima Juliet]

Without wanting to press this point too far – the BBMF Lanc is not 617, nor is Just Jane, nor was some other footage & audio on the ground and in the air.

Oh dear, JN, BBMF Lanc is painted up as KC-A "Thumper MkIII" which was a 617 Sqn Lanc after the dams raid. Thumper flew on Op TAXABLE and the TIRPITZ raid. It doesn't get any better than that for your chosen material!!! :ugh:

RAF BBMF - Lancaster Thumper Mk III (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/theaircraft/lancasterthumpermkiii.cfm)

Whilst she may not be original 617, PA474 is painted to represent 617 for the time being.

LJ

PS. Top tip: Do your research with your mates in the pub rather than let some interns in a media company do it! :ok:

[John Nichol]

as I say .......(hair-splitting, nit-pickers unite!) - the BBMF Lanc is not a 617 Sqn Lanc. I know all too well what it is 'painted' as now - we had John Bell in the doco who has been photographed with this reproduction of the "Thumper" Lanc he flew in.

Thanks also for the 'top tip' LJ - (good to see you still find it necessary to take a pop at, & try to diminish the work of young, enthusiastic, production staff doing a great job - were you a QWI by any chance?!) but as I have no idea who you are, I'll have to pass on the undoubted joy of sharing a pint with you.

Still.....we can all continue with this now tiresome weeing contest. Or simply acknowledge that the doco did a great service in honouring our veterans.

Thanks again to those of you who offered such positive feedback. I'll pass it on.

[Wrathmonk]

John

tiresome weeing contest

I could see that phrase being re-used on a number of other threads on this board.... It seems to be in the nature of Prune these days ;)

[langleybaston]

At the risk of reigniting somewhat dampened flames though, isn't it a slightly more senior squadron that is generally accepted as having ultimately sunk the Tirpitz?

Do keep up! See #26.

[Treble one]

Original picture on beforehand.








Pleased to see the 'N word' is not being overdubbed during the film screening, for the sake of historical accuracy

[4mastacker]

goudie wrote:

I'm pretty certain Nigger's grave was on the left as one came out the side door of the hangar, on the airfield side.

That's where it was when I was stationed at Scampton. Mrs 4ma has a surviving uncle who was one of 617's groundcrew during the war so we are going to try to see if he can re-call the grave's precise location.

[just another jocky]

At the risk of reigniting somewhat dampened flames though, isn't it a slightly more senior squadron that is generally accepted as having ultimately sunk the Tirpitz?

No.

Perhaps in the past, and that because they shouted the loudest, as did (do) their association.

Having spoken to one of the 617 Sqn rear gunners on the raid many years ago, he saw the ship turn over before the other sqn even arrived on target. But that's just one word. There have been a couple of seemingly well researched documentaries on recently showing the effect of each bomb and from that there can be no doubt which sqns bombs did the real damage.

[Prangster]

Was there ever any operational planning carried out proposing a return to the dams using Grandslams and Tallboys? Given 617's accuracy the Sorpe in particular would have been an ideal target

[MAINJAFAD]

Two dams were attacked with Tallboys in 1944, The Sorpe by 9 Sqn in October, 4 direct hits including one dead center of the road at the middle of the crest. Didn't even come close to breaking it (Tallboy had a much smaller charge than Upkeep) and the Urft Dam in the December where both 617 and 9 Sqn attacked the dam (though most of the aircraft didn't bomb due to bad weather). One direct hit on the crest which took out a large chunk, but well above the water line, so no breech. Tallboy and Grandslam were not designed to penetrate large amounts of concrete and in almost all occasions where the bomb did hit a hardened target, it exploded within the concrete before entering the space under the protection causing limited damage to the area directly under the point of the detonation (If the bomb didn't break up first or only partly detonate, which happen on more than a few occasions). Most of the major structural damage was done by near misses undermining the structure attacked, which is exactly what Barnes Wallis had designed the weapon to do.

V3 would have been a game changer had it actually worked!!! The weapon had two major problems, firstly the secondary charges along the barrel had a tendency to pre-detonate before the shell past them (thus retarding the shell instead of accelerating it) and secondly due to the smooth bore nature of the barrel, the shell (which was fin stabilized) didn't spin and tended to topple in flight. The longest range they got in trials was around 60NM, which was a shorter range than Paris gun of 1918. Most of the damage to the V3 site was done by a Tallboy going down one of the gun shafts, exploding and exposing an underground water course which then flooded the lower levels and drowned a lot of Germans and forced labour who were sheltering down there.

[Lima Juliet]

I've run out of wee... :ok:

[mmitch]

I have just read 'Johnny' Johnson's book The Last British Dambuster.
He dropped one of the Upkeep bombs on the Sorpe dam. He said they were only told how to attack it the morning of the day. He had no bomb sight for it so they lined up an engine as they flew along the dam.
mmitch.

[CoffmanStarter]

I've run out of wee...

Furosemide 40mg daily should do the trick :E

[Lima Juliet]

Not quite there yet, Coff! http://boards.buffalobills.com/images/smilies/geezer.gif

[Geehovah]

Haven't run through the comments but just to say I watched it last night and thoroughly enjoyed it John. A great programme.

Even as an air defender (ducking for cover) I have to take my hat off to those guys and what they did. True heroism.

[John Nichol]

If anyone missed it, this doco is running on National Geographic this week - now titled "Dambusters' Secret Missions"

[Pontius Navigator]

Now there is a coincidence, just thinking of you and JP yesterday

[Hipper]

This clip from Pathe shows the raid on the Panzership Lutzow at Swinemunde, Poland (starts at 0.59). It's by 617 Squadron and dated 16th April 1945:


Winged War - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/winged-war/)

A five-ton bomb achieved a near-miss and opened up 30 m of Lützow's side and she assumed a 56 degree list to starboard. Two 1.000 lb bombs which hit the forward and aft 28 cm magazines failed to explode. The ship was finished but one main turret was repaired and used against the Russians until the shells ran out. She was then scuttled and remained on the river until 1947 when the Russians managed to refloat the ship and towed it to Gdansk Bay where it was sunk.


Alan Cooper followed up his book on 617 Dambusters with 'Beyond the Dams to the Tirpitz':


Beyond the Dams to the Tirpitz: Amazon.co.uk: Alan W. Cooper: Books

[TBM-Legend]

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/raaf-mission-to-end-jihadi-water-torture-of-iraq/story-e6frg8yo-1227114051695)

1 Sqn, RAAF, Super Hornets, are busting ISIL dams!