Windfarms

[enstrompilot]

A national power company is in the early stages of planning to locate 5 x 140m turbines within 1000m of my helipad (biggest so far in UK), the position will effect the into prevailing wind approach. Nearby conurbations limit my routes into my site (being a good neighbor I seek to avoid overflight.

they will not tell me if they will be lite (I night fly occasionally)

what is the position regard flying regs (rule 5 etc)

what do the planners have to take account of (i am an established users)

any suggestions on how best to challenge the location ?

all thoughts welcome
thanks

[Jarvy]

All wind turbines require planing permission from local council, so suggest you contact them first to see if an application has been made (normally it will be on their web site).
When they have you can object and usually go to a council meeting where planing will be discussed. Also try to canvas local opinion as the more local objection you can get the better.

[JTobias]

Hi

I can't see an issue with Rule (5). Presumably you'll be landing and/or taking off, in which case the 500ft rule doesn't apply.

Good luck with your objection. I suspect you'll get nowhere though.

Joel :ok:

[Flying Foxhunter]

Enstrom pilot, have you got a safeguarding plan for your pad, as it helps. I have been involved with two of these proposed wind farms near to helipads. Lost one, won one. You really do need specialist professional advise(not from me by the way) if you are serious about taking on the utility supply company. I can point you in the right direction if you pm me

Flying Foxhunter

[enstrompilot]

not sure how to PM

but I would be pleased to have access an Expert
I think I need to act soon and create substantive objection as early as possible.

I have my lawyers on the case and will be consulting a planning specialst (prob a planning barrister)

I have contacted other 'objector' groups for advice

I hate to be a Nimby, I think Wind turbines can have a part to play in the UK power need, but these are HUGE and close to y and other homes, I fear the constant noise and visual impact

please send me the contact for the specialist my email is Ian @ interface-devices.com

thanks

Ian

[toptobottom]

enstrompilot

Shouldn't that be (Alouettepilot?!!) How are you chap?

1000m is quite a long way; I don't think the noise will be an issue in reality and I don't think you could argue that their position would affect your approach either. You're a smart chap and I'm sure you'll sort it out; any objection must be based on the usual rules, which normally exclude any visual impact (unless in an area of outstanding natural beauty, etc.). However, noise and disturbance are considered to be valid objections, so if you can prove disturbance, you may make some progress. Definitely worth engaging a professional.

Good luck mate :ok:

PS Good to hear you've got the biggest heli-pad in the UK so far ;-)

[enstrompilot]

easy to make an error - helipad is small

the largest wind turbine in ENGLAND today are 115m high

these are planned to be 125m (min) to 140m (max)

Ian

[Mungo5]

They are normally lit, but only at the top of the nancelle. Given the blades can be a further 50m, the light isn't really 'on top'

Also note that the anemometer they put up about 18 months in advance is also unlit - those can be upto 100m high.

Also if it's reasonably close to a functioning airport, Civ or Mill, the CAA/MoD usually have a lot to say about the turbine's affects on radar returns. Several planning application rejections for wind farms have cited this objection.

[[email protected]]

I think Wind turbines can have a part to play in the UK power need

The highest electricity demand in UK is on a cold winter's morning following a long clear night (clear sky, light or nil wind), how do wind farms help us then? They are a fashionable response which found favour in Labour's indecisive govt as they could be seen to be doing something instead of cutting to the chase and building nuclear power stations.

Generally only one turbine will be lit on a wind farm.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

What's wrong with a steep(er) approach? Is there any difference in altitude between helipad and windfarm?

This sounds a bit like nimbyism. I'm sure we're all familiar with that.

Good list of wind farm/aviation co-existence links here:

RenewableUK - Aviation and wind energy (http://www.bwea.com/aviation/index.html)

[NorthSouth]

A few clarifications:

Generally only one turbine will be lit on a wind farm
They are normally lit
Very few wind turbines in the UK are lit, although the proportion is now growing because the MoD now asks for lights. I know of no case where only one turbine in a wind farm is lit.
the largest wind turbine in ENGLAND today are 115m highPretty much the standard height now for onshore turbines is 125m. There are some currently going through the planning system at 149m.
enstrompilot: you say I fear the constant noise and visual impact but those of course are nothing to do with the safety of your helipad operations. I suspect downwind turbulence is probably your biggest potential issue.
NS

[enstrompilot]

thanks for all comments

FairWeatherFlyer

nimbyism - fair comment thanks for the site link

steeper approach is OK IF one can see them - hence lighting for night flights

NorthSouth

The turbines are growing in size, it seems the newer applications are for the larger installations, even at 125m the 5 turbines will/may present an issue.

re downwind turbulence - thanks for the thought I will seek some details to determine if this could be a hazard

my primary concern is safety of the site for the established flying use, as this is also my home I am seeking to establish the effects of noise etc, but in that regard I have the same interests as any house holder.

thanks for the helpful comments

Ian

[Helinut]

There is a way of inputting your established use of the helipad into the planning process, I believe. There was a long established helicopter maintenance outfit, based on the edge of an industrial estate, with rural areas to allow approaches /departures. A developer wanted to put a major development on the approach and departure routes. It took a long time and much effort, but in the end the developer had to build them a new building and helipad on a new nearby site, in order to be allowed to develop the area he wanted to.

If you PM me, I can provide details of the maintenance company. They are very helpful and I am sure would be happy to provide information and the name of their consultant.

It won't be cheap though........

[[email protected]]

I know of no case where only one turbine in a wind farm is lit.
You want to get out more;) There are plenty in the SW where only one or 2 are lit - in some cases they use LED lights which bizarrely don't show up on NVG but do to the naked eye.

[NorthSouth]

crab:There are plenty in the SW where only one or 2 are lit - in some cases they use LED lights which bizarrely don't show up on NVG but do to the naked eyeI'd be very surprised if there are any lit in the south west - none of the charts show any that are lit and they were all built before the MoD started asking for lights. Care to give some examples?
NS

[[email protected]]

Fly from Chivenor down to Culdrose and you will pass many windfarms of different sizes, some have lights some do not - there is little consistency. As I mentioned, the small bandwith of LED lighting is an issue on NVG - LEDs seem to be the light of choice at the moment because they are cheap.

[NorthSouth]

crab: please check your PMs

NS

[zorab64]

LEDs seem to be the light of choice at the moment because they are cheap.

LEDs are not cheap - they are generally more expensive to install (capital) but cheaper to run (revenue/CO2/carbon) and last a lot longer than traditional lighting (reduced maintenance costs). The long-term advantages outweigh the initial costs!:ok:

On a separate note, offshore wind farms are lit at all extremities of the plot - may be more to do with ships than aircraft, although the lights are higher than where sailors would generally look! I'd suggest they'll notice them on their radars & charts first! :eek:

[[email protected]]

So they are cheap then if they are cheaper to run and last longer:)

I have encountered 2 wind farms at sea in the last 5 years that weren't marked on the aviation maps! I suspect that many of them aren't marked on a lot of marine charts either.

[500e]

Crab
Noticed the row you are talking about near Chiv.
Interesting aside on LED did not realise the implications on Night Vision Gogles :sad:
does this also mean that the new LED nav lamps & beacons are also the same when on goggles? or do the approved units have a sufficient frequency spread to be OK /
The current drain on both lights & beacons + the life & weight saving are significant on light helicopters.
The latest 3M reflective tape on blades could help with the last 50 Mtrs

[[email protected]]

500e - Jim L has some info on LED s and their narrow bandwith compared to conventional lights. I don't know about nav lamps & beacons but the wind farm lights were certainly a surprise, it's not often you can see a light under gogles but not with the naked eye (unless they are IR lights of course).

[zorab64]

Crab, if you look at the current Notams, you'll find the following: FROM: 10/06/03 14:33C) TO: 11/07/31 23:59
E) GREATER GABBARD OFFSHORE WINDFARM UNDER CONSTRUCTION WI 10NM RADIUS
515122N 0015801E, APRX 140 TURBINES (MAX BLADE TIP HGT 450FT).
AVIATION WARNING LGT ON SELECTED PERIPHERAL TURBINES
If you have an up to date 1/4 mil chart of the South East (Sheet 8), you'll see two windfarms marked on the chart, off the Clacton, Essex and Herne Bay, Kent coasts respectively.
I haven't had a look at a marine chart recently but, in most cases, and certainly in the Thames Estuary, ships will invariably be avoiding the shallow water the turbines are built in, before trying to avoid what's built there! :eek:
I find it almost impossible to fathom the thought that an Admiralty Chart would not include a windfarm built in the sea - they've been pretty good to date . . . :ok:

[NorthSouth]

crab:I have encountered 2 wind farms at sea in the last 5 years that weren't marked on the aviation maps! I suspect that many of them aren't marked on a lot of marine charts eitherI find that extremely disturbing. Can you recall which ones these were? Developers are duty-bound to report the details to MoD, and the extent of pre-consultation with MoD and civil aviation interests also ensures that they are aware of all developments.
NS

[enstrompilot]

an Aviation 'expert' has produced a report for my local planning authority which includes:-

This does not preclude flight over the turbines themselves but would subsequently require a relatively steep approach to the helipad (7.5°), assuming a 50 foot clearance from the turbine blades, and would not be considered to be good airmanship


besides it not clear quite what he is saying, I dont fancy being only 50' above the rotating blades of a turbine.

in addition to this he is proposing that once the turbines are installed there would remain a clear route between them and the nearby conurbation (which he acknowledges can not be flown over below 1000'). the route he suggests indicated flight within 180m of the turbines (450' tall with 360' rotor diameter)


can it be safe to fly that close to turbines, both day and night ? - what about turbulence ?

some guidlines suggest 2 rotor spans (1200' agl) above and 10 rotor spans away (1000m).

I would be very interested to receive 'considered comment' on the 'experts' views.

[Walking Ballast]

Prepositioning machine for a big weeks work, tooling along, enjoying the scenery, on desent into a remote pad in the valley and 'found' and 120ft high anemometer.........

I have been flying this same route and using this pad on and off for about 10 years.

Went working o/s for 7 months, came back. Checked with the property owner if any changes had been made, Nope, checked with boss and ops manager, any changes, Nope, checked NOTAMS for the areas every day........The presence of the anemometer was noted....but the lat/long was out by about 10 miles!!

Noisy buggers when you clip a supporting wire!..... :eek:

[22clipper]

Dawdling along at 500' near Mt. McArthur about 40nm SW of YSCN today I spied a new wind farm under construction & altered course a bit to get a better look at the big, newly poured circular concrete foundations. There were no turbines in yet so I was just following from the network of roads that radiated out along the hilltops when I came across a couple of long skinny poles (probably less than 4" in dia) at least as high as the turbines will be when installed. Each had an anemometer mounted on top. These bloody things are grey gal, virtually impossible to see till you're nearly on top of them & are there presumably to gauge wind strength prior to setup, since I haven't come across any in or near a completed farm. So be aware.

[RINKER]

We get them in Scotland too. Sometimes at operational farms but more
Worryingly randomly placed at proposed sites which means they can crop
Up anywhere where you might least expect them.

R

[Fareastdriver]

Interesting aside on LED did not realise the implications on Night Vision Gogles

Don't go stumbling around Shanghai at night with NVGs then. It's 10 p.m. here and I have just come back from a stroll down West Nanjing Road. It's about five miles long and a lot of it is a thousand foot high. It's like daylight at street level and everything, but everything, is lit up with LEDs.

You won't be able to stop at a red light either. They're also LEDs.

[chopcat]

Planning is very much a reactive process that tries to appease objections/comments from interested parties.

Thus if your concern would be night time visibility it would be quite appropriate for you to propose that the Local Authority, if they were minded to grant permission, to impose a condition that the masts were suitably illuminated.

CC