Grand Canyon Accident: Pilot killed in AS350 rollover

[newfieboy]

DB
Good post Mate.....I just came on line to remove mine...had second thoughts felt sounded offensive.No disrespect at all meant to you N.Sea crews.But Ill leave as is. Hopefully we all learn something :ok:

[EBCAU]

SilsoeSid - "I would read that to mean that if instructions on how to secure the controls aren't covered in the FM, then the practise isn't authorised because both requirements haven't been made. Is that not the case?"


I cant find anything in the FM, of any machines I fly, telling me the procedure for fastening seatbelts. So, by the above definition, fastening seat belts isn't authorised? Strange reasoning Sid.

[LASJayhawk]

Double Bogey: Papillon is a 1st class outfit, at least from my dealing with them on the MX side in the last 14 years.

I can't say what they do in the canyon, but at KLAS and now KBVU I have never seen them load or unload SLF on a running bird. Not saying they never do it, just I've never seen it.

I have seen them cancel a whole afternoons flights when the temperature might get to high, but other operators continued to fly.

[[email protected]]

Before the name-calling gets too out of hand just consider:

Would this poor chap have died if he had shut down the aircraft? No. So we have a fatality, grieving relatives and friends, NSTB investigation, insurance claims etc etc.

The reasons for not shutting down (unsafe area, aircraft not starting, safety of loading and unloading pax etc) are all minor inconveniences by comparison as are any extra costs to the operation in terms of time and engine start cycles.

Was it legal? In all likelihood yes.

Are there pilots reading this thread who do it all the time without considering the alternatives because it is an accepted practice (risky shift again)? Clearly.

Will it happen again? Probably not to Papillon but, since it is widespread practice, almost inevitably without better education.

[Freewheel]

Crab, one point.

In the part of the word I regularly operate in, aircraft not starting can be a life threatening event. Not something everybody has experienced, but hardly a minor inconvenience.


Around 8 months of the year the amount of water in the survival pack can be expected to last 3 days. In the remainder of the year drowning is a greater risk. it doesn't mean I leave the controls on a regular basis, but i felt it necessary to put some context on my earlier comment.



Oh and the name calling has been out of hand for about 8 pages now.....

[[email protected]]

Freewheel - I completely agree that there are some operations where not shutting down is essential to safety and yours seems to be one. However, there also seem to be a lot of operations that avoid shutdown for economic convenience, not for safety reasons.

[SuperF]

So of all the times that we have said of the birds flying solo, a few in oz and a few in NZ, (two of NZs where they were left at full RPM in winds, and yes the insurance company paid out), how many other people have died as a result of pilotless helicopters?

If this is the first one, then, yes while tragic, it's hardly cause to ban the practice.

If you ban something due to one death in 70 odd years of helicopter ops, then imagine the case we could put up to ban twin engine, two pilot ops offshore! The same could be said for banning single engined helicopters totally as more than one person has died flying them.

Looks like from your British point of view, we may as well shut down the whole industry.

Now, if Euro/Airbus have written a manual that in some cases says do not leave the controls, and in others it doesn't say it, then by default they are telling you which Helicopter you CAN leave the aircraft while it's running.

The other way of looking at that argument is if Euro/Airbus assume or think that their manuals mean that you must remain at the controls while the blades are spinning, then why would they specifically state it in one manual and not the others? If "minimum 1 Pilot in RHS" means that you cannot get out of a safely secured Helicopter, then why would they even think about putting the, do not get out restriction, into a single manual?

You may get Euro/Airbus to change the RFM, and all that will do once it's highlighted to operators around the world, is make Bell, MD, Agusta, etc very happy as the sales of new Airbus slow down, and the second hand price crashes! Once again, just my opinion.

[[email protected]]

SuperF - I haven't said the practice should be banned at all - just that the risks involved should not be dismissed lightly - whether it is damage to the aircraft or, as in this unfortunate case, a fatality.

It is like any risk we take as pilots, there has to be a good reason for it and you seek to mitigate as much of that risk as possible - it is just being sensible and professional.

There are many more things I and others are called upon to do in our professional lives that are far more risky than leaving a turning helo but you assess them for risk vs reward balance. For some that reward is justified financially (fortunately I don't have to do that in my job) but the desire for money often clouds good judgement.

[SuperF]

Crab, Wasn't aimed at you, further up the line it was recommended...

Risk vs reward is the never ending equation for all of us, even you guys that work for clients that have more money than our clients.

[mickjoebill]

Double Bogey: Papillon is a 1st class outfit, at least from my dealing with them on the MX side in the last 14 years.

I can't say what they do in the canyon, but at KLAS and now KBVU I have never seen them load or unload SLF on a running bird. Not saying they never do it, just I've never seen it.

I put the entire MJB dynasty in their hands last year for a flight into the canyon.
All flights I saw that day were rotors running.
Ground crew demonstrated that they were on the ball.

Is there much difference in the time taken to shut down/startup and unloading and loading six tourists rotors running?
But if it shut down the craft would be on the pad longer which in high frequency 5min long shuttle flights is down time when it is needed the most.

Without detailed accident stats that factor in flight hours per mission type, one could propose that there is more likely the chance of mechanical failure following a restart than if the machine is kept running?

In respect to human performance, better to keep in the zone rotors running or shut down for four minutes?

Mickjoebill

[Thomas coupling]

You can't have it all ways:
1. If the RFM prohibits it - don't do it - endex.

If the RFM (Bronx this is for you in mono syllables, just in case) such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat. IF a helicopter is burning and turning (at idle or otherwise) then it is deemd to be in a state of 'flight' because YOU ARE LOGGING THIS FLIGHT TIME - Bronx. Don't try to tell me otherwise. No-one will tell me they stop logging flight time everytime they go to idle or sit on the deck for minutes on end doing nothing and then start logging time once they wind the throttle(s) up and or go flying again. So the cab is deemed to be in flight mode during this hiatus in the actual flight - Thus a pilot MUST / SHALL be present and in the R H seat. Endex. Capiche?
So the pilot who exited his 350B3e for a fluid check exited against the RFM rules. QED.

Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.
SuperF - no need to ban anything - it is already prohibited from leaving a cab which is running.
LASJayhawk - if your ops 'demands' that you cannot shut down everytime - then negotiate with the OEM's to change the RFM. It's not easy but if a major player in the fraternity feels the need to do this - it will happen and you will get an exemption.

[canterbury crusader]

TC,

Umm, that's exactly what I do.

Every single time I land I write down the time, then just before I pull pitch I write the time down again. Up to 60 times a day. Client gets charged running time, machine gets air time (I would say flight but I'm afraid it would confuse you further than you already are) and I log the time I was in the air. Flight time. Time the Helicopter was in Flight. In the air. Not on the ground. Simple.

It is required by my governing body and my company so that's what I do. I have logged running time when required by a different governing body and different company. Same type of helicopter. I am a firm believer that Flight time means in the air.

I agree 100% that I am responsible for the helicopter until I have tied the blades down and turned the battery off. If someone walks into the machine, I am responsible. Not arguing with you there, but if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers. The machine is not in flight and I am not logging flight time for me or the machine. Clients are going to be charged for it though.

All these fancy definitions but have you looked in a dictionary - try an English one if you like. I think you may be quite surprised.

[[email protected]]

Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?

You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.

The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.

[Bronx]

canterbury crusader

Good post. :ok:


if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers.

That might be a bit tricky for TC to grasp.
Have you got any pictures to illustrate what you're saying?



crab Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals
Whether it is or it isn't doesn't change the fact that when he's standing outside the helicopter he sure ain't flying it.

[canterbury crusader]

I have never been required to log running time in a tech log or maintenance release regardless of the country I was working nor have I every heard of it happening.

In regards to the R22 I believe there are calculations in regards to how much flight time has happened if you log engine time. Haven't flown one for a long time and never worked on one so possibly wrong on that. Will leave that one at that.

Every company I have worked for log air time for the aircraft. That's what the manufacturers ask for. Bear in mind most machines were designed more than 40 years ago when Flight time meant flight time.

[canterbury crusader]

Yes, but I believe the written description is sufficient.

[Bronx]

Yes, but I believe the written description is sufficient.

It would be for almost everyone. ;)

[Devil 49]

Further to Canterbury Crusader, the largest HEMS provider in the USA defines lift to touchdown as the flight time to be recorded. Time spent on the ground, rotors turning is not flight time. Minimum flight creww has nothing to do with non-flight operations. Anyhow, that is how I've logged flight time, exactly time spent manipulating the controls for the purpose of flight since 1968. I've spent thousands of hours at ground and flight idle, in the boonies, day and night; off-shore, day and night; country-side; city-scapes; roof-tops; highways and byways; a rail right of way or two.

The company also permits their AS350 pilots to leave the controls, rotors turning. The process allowing that is defined in the FAA approved operations manual. Contrary to the assertions of some, it is not a casual event, undertaken without regard to risk. The PIC is always responsible. I have done so on occasion when I felt it required.

Whether or not one can imagine a circumstance where it is a better choice than shutting down, your lack of imagination isn't sufficient justification to deprive the pilot on scene of an option. The FAA does not prohibit it. The RFM may permit it. The owner allows it. The PIC might evaluate risk and decide it to be reasonable. All these are directly accountable and have standing to exercise control.

An aside- do any of your maintenance personnel hold run-up authorization????

[Boudreaux Bob]

Bronx,

Be careful, you will be accused of trying to start a Spam/Brit fight!

When we over hear say things like that about them over there, they get awfully snippy. You should be prepared to take hostile fire from Brits over your comment as they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.

[212man]

Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?

You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.

The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft.

Crab,
(without entering the general fray of this thread, but to clarify this specific point) it is entirely normal to only log airborne time in the tech log, and this is the time used for service intervals and component life compliance. Aircraft with HUMS will record this for you. The OEMs will agree that time on the ground running is fatiguing, but this is factored into their limits based on experience (of typical usage).

[Bronx]

Bob

Not all Brits are the same as TC.

http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/wheels-tyres-suspension-brakes-steering/1055194d1349880355-suzuki-margalla-oil-wali-shocks-gas-wali-thank-god.gif

[jecottrell]

If the RFM ... such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat.


Why does 2.1.1 in the 2B1 manual specifically prohibit the pilot from leaving the controls if that is already addressed by requiring a pilot for flight in 2.1.2? (See where your construction falls apart?)

In the end, your opinion doesn't have any bearing on reality or the situation at hand.


...they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.


Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.

They also appear to be unable to identify sarcasm, even at extremely close range.

[[email protected]]

I'm coming to the US for a 3-week holiday (vacation) later this month, I'll try to practice my sarcasm-recognition skills before I get there;)

I will even be going on a helicopter trip over the Grand Canyon so I will make sure I don't cause offence to anyone operating a helicopter in an un-British fashion.



OK back to flight time vs running time.......................................

[Boudreaux Bob]

YIKES! No Droop in the Blades and no Pilot attending the Controls! Sound the Crash Alarm....Go!




http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/pbprofilepics/E9B6E6EE-A142-47B1-9508-C1C7727DE6F8.jpg

[aclark79]

I therefore strongly recommend this candidate for the Darwin Trophy. RiP.


My friend made a mistake that he paid with his life for.

You can keep your personal snide remarks about his intelligence and his airman ship to yourself unless you would like to meet in person and we can discuss your piss poor attitude face to face.

While I see what your trying to do (at least it seems like your trying to advocate for more safety in flight ops) you sound like an assh*ole.

[SilsoeSid]

"I'll ask again, why are you so obsessed with creating a violation of policy/procedure/regulation where there clearly isn't one?"

I don't want to create anything I'm just amazed that an authority allows an activity that is so potentially dangerous.


When it came to making up the regulations, did they look at the model, the link of which was posted earlier, looked at the bit that says;
(228) Flight time. The period of time that the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after it is parked, with engine(s) shut down if applicable.
Note: Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term "block-to-block" time or "chock-to-chock" time in general usage, which is measured from the time an aircraft moves from the loading point until it stops at the unloading point.

(229) Flight time— aeroplane. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.

(230) Flight time—helicopter. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

(231) Flight time—glider. The total time occupied in flight, whether being towed or not, from the moment the glider first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

... and thought, "Tell you what, we'll group all aircraft in one and leave off any mention or reference to power ..... what could possibly go wrong!

Oh, how they must chuckle on their way to the enquiries.

[jecottrell]

I suspect it's easier targeting a guy that isn't around to stand up for himself, than a guy that is.

[SilsoeSid]

Boudreaux Bob

YIKES! No Droop in the Blades and no Pilot attending the Controls! Sound the Crash Alarm....Go!

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/...C7727DE6F8.jpg


Lol,, in fact pmsl with a bit if roflmao ... zoom in Bob, there's someone at the controls :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

jecottrell;
I suspect it's easier targeting a guy that isn't around to stand up for himself, than a guy that is.

Read my post JEC, not the man, the system :=

[Boudreaux Bob]

With your keen focus I am surprised the obvious has missed you by so far. Keep up the good work and maybe you will get there yet.

Maybe we need to be far more subtle in the future to provoke you to look well into the issues.

I will modify my post. Add an "If" at the start and that should make it accurate.

[jecottrell]

Read my post JEC, not the man, the system


Until someone comes up with a more appropriate flight manual;
…
FLIGHT MANUAL AS 350 B3 Arriel 2B1
…
The following are forbidden :
…
- Leave the aircraft with no pilot at the controls while rotor is
spinning.
...
- Minimum flight crew ................. : One pilot in right seat.
…

The big question is, what does the FM for this ac actually state about leaving the ac with the ac running?

Are you saying that the pilot in this incident was right in what he was doing? Because I'm saying that I think what he did was wrong

Which makes it clear that he didn't ensure that the aircraft couldn't become airborne without the 'legal minimum flight crew'.

You're absolutely right, in your mind he did nothing 'wrong' ... yet ended up dead!


Those are impressive examples of ways to target the system.

You don't even have the gumption to admit your motives in this thread. You get called out and try to hide behind what you describe as targeting "the system". Here, in the colonies, we call that chicken****.

[Thomas coupling]

After that own goal from Bob and crass comments from our duty wannabee I really have to move on from this laborious thread and trying to educate the colonies. :rolleyes:
I'll leave you with this thought - is the reason why you have to deplane - really worth the risk of losing your life? :(

Aclark79: If your friend was looking down on this now - I'd gamble he'd have a snigger about what he did - for him he went the way all helo drivers want to go - doing his job. This definition is just for him. Nothing personal bud. RiP.

Darwin Awards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards)

[SilsoeSid]

JEC, you simply don't get it do you!
SS:
Because I'm saying that I think what he did was wrong
I'm saying that I think what he did was wrong … and he only did it because the system told him it was right.
If the systems in place told him it was wrong, in all probability he wouldn't have done it and would still be with us, yet the systems clearly failed him.

The systems must be wrong when someone does something as simple as go for a comfort break and ends up dead, don't ya think?

[SilsoeSid]

On a lighter note, a little thing from Britlandshire that Bob et al will enjoy from our Highway Code;

123
You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road. Generally, if the vehicle is stationary and is likely to remain so for more than a couple of minutes, you should apply the parking brake and switch off the engine to reduce emissions and noise pollution. However it is permissible to leave the engine running if the vehicle is stationary in traffic or for diagnosing faults.
Law CUR regs 98 & 107
https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/control-of-the-vehicle-117-to-126

[rantanplane]

Aye right TC, tis but a scratch..

Now for the newbies, or friendly folks from innocent colonies, to understand Tommy C's genetical pedigree.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Knight_(Monty_Python)
The Black Knight (Character) (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0032564/)


Now be afraid, be very afraid: he still can bite you!

[Boudreaux Bob]

You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road.

So.....if you shut off the engine, apply the Parking Brake, and walk off to shoo Ducks off the Roadway you are okay then?

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/541052-driver-charged-criminal-negligence-after-stopping-ducks.html

[rantanplane]

And Sid, America is not the UK. The system there, as I understand it, does not always tell people what's right or wrong. The system gives people a choice for doing their own decision. Yes not really very British approach. Is that so difficult to understand? Are you still in shell shock for some reason?

[SilsoeSid]

On that (rather lost) light note:
Bearing in mind the occasion of tomorrow, 6th June, may I suggest that we hold a 24hr truce starting at 00:01hrs GMT, in respect of the fallen.

In the spirit of the motto of The Glider Pilot Regiment;
"Nothing is Impossible"



http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/589/landing_at_pegasus_bridge_06jun1944.jpg

"Jim Wallwork, Glider Pilot Regiment" (http://theminiaturespage.com/plus/msg.mv?id=155743)
Operation Deadstick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deadstick)

[Boudreaux Bob]

Sid,

I always begin my reflection at the time the Airborne Pathfinders started loading up for their flights across the Channel to the Drop Zones and the Glider borne Troops began to leave for their assault on the Bridge.

The flying done that night by the Glider Pilots who landed within a few Yards of the Bridge is simply amazing.

Last week I rode up to Bedford, Virginia to the National D-Day Memorial. The Memorial itself, as Memorials go, is rather plain and not all that impressive until you realize why it is in Bedford.

We should all take a bit of time tomorrow to raise a Glass and offer a Salute to those brave folks who participated in the Invasion at Normandy. I had two Uncles who crossed the beach on the second day, with one of them going MIA for a fortnight during the Battle of the Bulge before escape and evading to a small Belgian town called Bastogne.

[Heliport]

I really have to move on from this laborious thread and trying to educate the colonies.

A wise decision TC.

No more crass comments about the deceased pilot and those who dare to disagree with you. :ok:

[twinstar_ca]

and I agree with Sid... lest we forget tomorrow all that they achieved and sacrificed...

[jecottrell]

From Colleville, 2012:

http://www.jecottrell.com/Travel/Paris-12-Large/i-b237G22/0/L/IMG_2247-IMG_2256-L.png

[aclark79]

they recognize individuals who have supposedly contributed to human evolution by self-selecting themselves out of the gene pool via death or sterilization by their own (unnecessarily foolish) actions.

Can you really not see what an assh*le you sound like? No one uses the Darwin award as a joke, it's said as an insult.

I think my mate would be mourning the years he won't be spending with his wife and the children he won't be happening.

So yes, I take your comments personally and I extend again my offer to discuss it face to face anytime you like.

I hope people who routinely exit the aircraft without shutting down first use this tragic accident as a teaching tool and make a decision about the risk versus reward. That is the only good that will come out of this accident.

Either way nothing is going to change my opinion about you.

[Flying Lawyer]

Lest we forget ......


This recently published memoir is one of the best WW2 aviation books I've ever read.

Review here: Mosquito Down! (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/541168-mosquito-down.html)

The author not only describes being shot down while flying his Mosquito but gives well-deserved credit to the largely unsung heroes who risked their lives to help and hide him and hundreds of other Allied airmen and airborne soldiers shot down over Germany and Nazi occupied Europe.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GoHbgQBEL._.jpg

Very well written and a gripping read.

Highly recommended. :ok:


FL

[Boudreaux Bob]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10430493_10152115801572944_6517191088086591062_n.jpg

[[email protected]]

The actions of so many brave men on and after the 6th June show just what 'Two nations divided by a common language' can achieve when they work together in a common cause.

We shall remember them.

[212man]

I loved this story! :ok::ok:
Pensioner who hid medals and absconded from care home found at D-Day celebrations in France - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10881513/Pensioner-who-hid-medals-and-absconded-from-care-home-found-at-D-Day-celebrations-in-France.html)

[ShyTorque]

So that's where TC went..... :cool:

[500guy]

DB - "I do not believe ANY helicopter flight manual allows the pilot toleave the controls with the rotor under power."

DB,

I don’t believe any flight manual ALLOWS any pilot to do anything. Itprohibits or limits certain things. If its not prohibited, its allowed. You canargue that its unsafe, or poor judgment but it’s perfectly legal here in the USunless the flight manual specifically forbids it.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Imagine this happening in the UK?

Video Feature: Restored Sikorsky S-52 | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/VideoFeatureRestoredSikorskyS52#.U5IFfBaKMoE)



http://www.aviastar.org/foto/sik_s-52.jpg

[212man]

BB,
Why not? It's positively science fiction compared to the Shuttleworth collection aircraft!

[Boudreaux Bob]

You looped one yet?

[Bravo73]

Imagine this happening in the UK?

Video Feature: Restored Sikorsky S-52 (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/VideoFeatureRestoredSikorskyS52#.U5IFfBaKMoE)


What? Restoring an old helicopter?

Or this:

xhRUGKa_ImY

:E

[SuperF]

Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?

You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.

The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.

Crab, its exactly what i do, as an operator, and as a pilot. been doing it that way for over 40 years. it is what is required by Mr Bell with his light and medium helicopters. No operator in their right mind would write more hours into a logbook than that required by the manufacturer, as that will simply raise your cost of operations to an uneconomic level, and you will go out of business.

I've got copies of the Bell manuals will try to post them, but haven't done it before....

And TC before you tell us what no pilot/operator in their right mind would do, or assume that you know everything about aircraft safety, i'm really worried for your safety, once you cannot be taught anything, it is the start of a slippery slope. Its fine to say that you have never seen that happen, don't think you would do it yourself, etc, however to announce that you know more than a large number of the Aviation Authorities around the world, that individually undertake more flight operations than your British Helicopter Industry, is quite a large step to take.

to the rest of the Brits on here, not having a go at you, just my view on the guy needing to open his eyes to the rest of the world. And insulting the dead isn't nice.

[SuperF]

ok, i cant figure out posting things.

this may work. its a copy directly from the Bell 206 manual. Actually the Bell 204 says the same thing.


Operating time — Actual flight or calendar time
that must be recorded in the Historical Service
Records or in the helicopter logs. The operating
time is specified as:

– Time in service (flight time) — The measured
time that starts the moment the helicopter
leaves the ground and continues until it
touches the ground at the next point of
landing. The time when the helicopter is on
the ground, with the engine and the rotor
turning, is not included.


i highlighted the txt...

[[email protected]]

It would be interesting to know if all manufacturers use the same criteria. Anyone have any information?

Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.

Happily looped the Lynx - not sure I'd be quite so comfortable in a S-52:ok:

[SuperF]

I can't help with others, I'm totally a Bell man.

Pretty sure most civilian turbine helicopters are the same, I think pistons should be engine time, although I know as much about non Bell stuff as I do about twin IFR or military stuff, it's all some strange black magic... :confused:

[terminus mos]

My experience with Sikorsky and Airbus is that:

Airborne time is used for Aircraft Time (+ cycles for engines with some manufacturers.)

Rotors Running time is used for Pilot flight hours.

[fijdor]

Same thing here in Canada, terms are slightly different and it's the same for all manufacturers, it's a Transport Canada regulation.
We have Air Time and Flight Time and it basically mean,
Flight Time is from start-up to shut-down and Air Time is from skids-up to skids-down.
Maintenance, inspections etc is calculated with Air-Time.

JD

[Boudreaux Bob]

Bristow on their Alouette III's used to split the normal 316 time from the higher 316B time which seemed a bit odd. Same aircraft, engine, gearbox's, drive lines but if you did not log all the time as 316B time the Overhaul and TBO Times were much higher.

[Nubian]

The collective in the AS350 has a propensity to pop up.

Well, in my close to 3000hours on the 350 series from the straight B to the B3e, I've only seen this on machines that has had an incorrect rigging of the collective spring under the floor. (mostly from it not being adjusted back from having dual-controls installed) Then it has a tendency to creep up, when there is NO or very little friction on the collective. When you use the collective lock, which also has to be adjusted properly, then this will not happen full stop!!

Now, in order to get it into governor range you must turn the twist grip into FLT.(alternatively lose electricity, so the FCU emergency-mode spools up to FLT) Pulling the collective as on a Robinson, will not do the same, only slow the RRPM and cone the blades.

So, for this accident to have happened, the collective friction can't have been set at all and the collective lock cannot been in use. (can have jumped off the lock, IF incorrectly adjusted) Further, I would think the collective spring have been adjusted for dual-controlls. Combine this with probably uneven ground, and no cyclic friction the bird might get ''air borne enough'' to roll over, even at GND idle.

The machine had the Appareo Vision 1000 installed, so finding the cause for this to happen should be a relatively easy task for the NTSB.

As for things being prohibited in the UK, yeah well, what IS allowed over there??? :E:E

[alouette3]

the collective friction can't have been set at all and the collective lock cannot been in use.

Nubian,
I agree with your reasons for a collective in an Astar to pop up.However, what I can't get around in my head is that for any professionally trained AS350 pilot, who has flown the type for a while,done basic training and check rides,the locking of the collective and adding friction is almost reflex. I can't believe this poor soul,did not do that. As you say only time ( and Appareo 1000) will tell.
To top it off, if the rigging and the lock were indeed not correct, then it was his time. There is bad luck and then there is SOL!
Alt 3.

[Gordy]

In the US, the ONLY aircraft that I know of that uses engine running time for the MX logs is the Robinson R-22. All others are fitted with some form of collective switch or "weight on skids/wheels" switch which start the MX Hobbs meter on lift off. The Schweizer 300CB did not originally come with an MX Hobbs meter and was normally fitted upon delivery.

This was the reason for the legal interpretation on logging of flight time with the FAA when the R-44 came out, because students were adding time to the meter reading before putting it in their log book.

[malc4d]

Yup.... and l believe we can only log PIC flight time as leaving the ground until we land. (FAA) whereas in a plank it is as soon as the engine is running.
How that works is a question that has always made me smile at the Gov. bureaucrats. Surely a pilot is in charge in both when the engine runs...........

[topendtorque]

Planks here used to be chocks away till chocks in place, log book and M/R as per the tacho which doesn't really start turning until the ERPM hit a certain level as beginning of T/O, maybe 1700 RPM.

The whole deal was open to interpretation in R/W, hours building pepes, logged starter button to idle cut off, when hours becomes an embarrassment it was a bit after T/O to somewhere before touchdown. Most of us considered flat pitch a non event, but I guess the manufacturer factors in a bit there but with nil pitch changes and considerably less centrifical force at idle RRPM how much really?

Can't figure out at all why Frank hasn't standardised with the rest in the manner as Gordy says. It would certainly help stop the non recording probs.

cheers tet

[Gordy]

malc4d
Surely a pilot is in charge in both when the engine runs...........
Being "pilot in command" is different to logging "pilot in command" time...

[SuperF]

if you take my helicopter away for a week, u are the PIC for that entire time. i don't care if its tied down on an airfield, if something happens to it you still have to answer to me as to what happened.

I'm sure Gordy, or one of the pilots, was responsible for the helicopter on the ship the whole time that he was at sea, if it got a bit of hanger rash, there is only one person that has to explain...

Therefore being in charge of, or responsible for, the helicopter is no determination as to PIC time.


In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.

[AnFI]

This thread has become something about the technicalities of logging time in pilot log books compared to manufacturers recomendations: ridiculous!


TC is beyond learning , he has retired with a 'clean slate' (i presume), doesn't make him 'right' tho.


Respect for the fallen: total, not all they were cracked up to be ? possibly; but "cometh the hour cometh the man", total respect!

Freedom and national philosophies: America; founded on freedom, judgement of the individual is permissable, nay prized. Europe (England); spawned these values of freedom, the foundations, upon which America sits; now believes in the 'nanny state' in which laws 'protect you' are there for your own good, because the 'state' (apparently) knows better! (Do they?). Russia; Great experts, academically brilliant, determined exactly how an operation should be performed, dictated it and the citizens had to 'obey' - FAILED. UK/Europe now becoming like that, ironic in the extreme, denigrating to 'our' fallen who fought for freedom, now we are to be shackled by the 'state' by those who apparently know better: ridiculous!


The freedom of this man to do what he saw fit is more valuable than the enslavement 'we' have to endure as 'we' head for a totalitarian dictatorship.

I do hope that we can preserve the freedom of good men to make judgements and to 'self determine' - without it innovation is lost and the development and inginuity that drove mankind forward is abandonned.

There will be downsides with freedom, as there are in any complex sytem, but the upsides are greater.

I am aware that someone might go back to my flying information from 1973 and find what I did (which was fun at the time), measured by todays standards, thoroughly Politically Incorrect and send me to jail ! But at least I experienced the freedom at the time to do what I thought was appropriate. Now the freedom has gone, I wasn't doing anything wrong, they just TOOK my freedom to do it anyway.

Freedoms fought for:
EASA get F@*£$D

Remember the fallen:

They shall grow not old

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

[mickjoebill]

t I can't get around in my head is that for any professionally trained AS350 pilot, who has flown the type for a while,done basic training and check rides,the locking of the collective and adding friction is almost reflex. I can't believe this poor soul,did not do that.

If pilot was seated on the left, as is the case with some of the company's craft, is it feasible for him to have fouled the collective on exit?

Is this a more likely cause than not correctly setting the collective?


Mickjoebill

[John Eacott]

It would be interesting to know if all manufacturers use the same criteria. Anyone have any information?

Certainly on our aircraft we log rotors running as flight time because our engineering empire tells us to - perhaps it is just a military thing.

crab@,

Welcome to the "other" world of helicopters, where the manufacturer's criteria dictates maintenance time as skids (wheels) off/on in nearly all models. The only type I've flown that requires otherwise are Frank's products. Sikorsky, Bell, Eurocopter, even Westland with the Wessex 60; all seem to have a Maintenance Manual call that follows those parameters.

[AnFI]

MJB - sounds like a strong contender in the speculation game. Someone on this forum would know if the pilot sits on the left in this operator's 'A-Stars'?

[peely]

In NZ, our CAA definition for Helicopter pilot flight time is skids up to skids down as well, so we do the same as other guys, and write down every T/O and Landing in the dairy and do a count up at the end of the day.

SuperF, where is this definition in our rules as I have often had this debate but can't find the wording in CAR Part 1?

[SuperF]

peely, i've had the conversation quite often as well, just looked at the definitions and it doesn't say skids off to skids down, but i know that "somewhere" CAA have defined it as such for helicopters.

now you have got me thinking, I'll search it out for you. :ugh:

I do know that if you get Audited that your Pilot log book better match up "exactly" with your A/C logbook, and maybe thats where it comes from...

[mickjoebill]

AnFI

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 468
MJB - sounds like a strong contender in the speculation game. Someone on this forum would know if the pilot sits on the left in this operator's 'A-Stars'?

Not speculation if Im asking a question:)
I flew with the operator twice last year in As350b, once with pilot on left the other with pilot on right.
No word yet if the aircraft in question was left or right hand drive.

Mickjoebill

[peely]

Yes SuperF one or two audits so I appreciate where you are coming from. I always ask them to show me the exact wording but each audit we get a different CAA Rep and therefore a different answer - never seen it in black and white other than the Part 1 definition which is open to interpretation.

[SilsoeSid]

While looking for something else, unrelated;

http://www.heli-lausanne.ch/directive_sec/NO.2418-S-00.pdf

SAFETY INFORMATION NOTICE
SUBJECT: GENERAL
Flight Safety of Helicopters - Issue of EHEST leaflet

AIRCRAFT CONCERNED
EC120 B
AS350 B, BA, BB, B1, B2, B3, D L1
etc

Improving global flight safety is the top priority for EUROCOPTER. On this account, EUROCOPTER is fully involved in the work of IHST (International Helicopter Safety Team) who aims at reducing the helicopter accident rate worldwide by 80% by the year 2016. The European branch of the IHST, called EHEST (European Helicopter Safety Team), has released the following leaflet, dealing with safety and more particularly with airmanship.
As the analyses of accidents of all types of helicopters (including the EUROCOPTER ones) performed by the different teams of IHST (USA, Europe, Brazil, Canada, Australia, etc.) have demonstrated that the accident scenarios are very similar worldwide, the topics addressed in this leaflet are suited to helping all helicopter pilots to fly safely.

and right at the very end ...

Remember, the flight isn’t over until the engine(s) are shutdown and all checks completed and the rotors have stopped.

Just incase anyone missed this particular worldwide Safety Information Leaflet.

[aclark79]

Can anyone tell me what a "control hold" is in an A-Star?

How does one give a control hold?

Why would adjusting any volume or selector switches be bad during a control hold?

[Gordy]

A "control Hold" is where a qualified ground person, (loader, ramper, mechanic), sits or stands next to the flight controls while the aircraft is running and holds down the collective while the pilot leaves the aircraft for another authorized function. This can be written into Ops Specs, (FAA).

Adjusting stuff is not their job.

[aclark79]

So you wouldn't be able to do a control hold with just the pilot present?

[Gordy]

Not in this particular definition no. Nothing says you cannot leave the aircraft though---there is no such rule.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Gordy, you might as well try to teach a Cat to yodel as try to convince your Brethren of that!

[Gordy]

You're not wrong there Bob.....

[aclark79]

The question then becomes who tells the pilots there that they can leave the aircraft? The company ops manual says you may not leave it when running unless performing a control hold or pilot swap, yet we hear from pilots there that they do leave the aircraft and haven't been getting into trouble.

I'm just trying to understand the why of it all.

[Gordy]

I'm just trying to understand the why of it all.

Each Ops manual is different. If you manual prohibits the practice then do not do it.....if it does then no problem.

The FAA allows it, and will write it into Ops Specs if asked, and assuming you have the relevant risk mitigation's in place... (part 135).

Operating Part 91---no rule prohibits it, and there is an AC that give guidance, therefore tis up to you as Pilot In Command to interpret the rules and regulations that you are given, (FAR part 91/135/Ops SPecs etc..), and then to use your judgement and authority granted you by FAR 91.3, (FAA), and determine for yourself what you can argue in a court of law, or worse case in front of grieving relatives....

I defer to the words of SASLess, when given a choice, save in the following order:

Ass....Tin....Ticket.....

Choice is yours dude.....Welcome to the world of being a professional pilot...

[RVDT]

Gordy,

And just to be sure - the RFM (as approved) would overrule all of 91, 135, Ops Spec etc.

It is part of Type Certificate. If the RFM prohibits then the only way around it is an STC and RFM Supplement.

[[email protected]]

and then to use your judgement and authority granted you by FAR 91.3, (FAA), and determine for yourself what you can argue in a court of law, or worse case in front of grieving relatives.... or just operate the aircraft in a manner that means you won't ever need to argue in a court of law or in front of grieving relatives - ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

[chopjock]

crab
ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

That sounds a bit like saying don't fly for pleasure or convenience then.

[Vertical Freedom]

Below 15knots wind, machine parked on proven stable ground, at ground idle, collective locked, hydraulics off, push to test button pushed in; it's not going anywhere :ooh: if it does???? Something was not done from the above list :mad:

[Gordy]

And just to be sure - the RFM (as approved) would overrule all of 91, 135, Ops Spec etc.

It is part of Type Certificate. If the RFM prohibits then the only way around it is an STC and RFM Supplement..

Agreed...if that is how the TCDS reads and/or the limitations section in the manual. I never flew a B3E but I have a lot of time in the AS350 BA and B2---neither of those have any limitation prohibiting the pilot from leaving the aircraft running.

or just operate the aircraft in a manner that means you won't ever need to argue in a court of law or in front of grieving relatives - ie don't take unnecessary risks where there is no absolute NEED to.

Agree to a point---the law is constantly changing. Like chopjock states....one could argue there is never a need to fly a helicopter.

[Shawn Coyle]

Or something else happened - has anyone considered a hydraulics hardover???
It's happened with the hydraulics off - stick motored to full deflection and stayed there for 30 second (report given to me by the pilot involved...)

[aclark79]

Choice is yours dude.....Welcome to the world of being a professional pilot...

You misunderstand me, but no worries. I've been flying commercially for a quite a while now in challenging environments.

The copy of the company manual I have seen (for the company involved in the accident) says you can't exit a running helicopter unless its for a pilot swap or done with a control hold, which is undefined, hence my first question.

Knowing the pilot involved personally and knowing both his method of flying and how he operated I can't see him ever doing something that violated the ops specs, unless the company told him to do one thing in the ops spec but then trained him to do another out on the line.

So I'm trying to understand the why.

[Gordy]

No harm done and no worries.

There are many things in aviation and life in general that we struggle to understand. Sometimes it is just best to face West, drink a shot in their name, learn from what happened and move forward. The biggest dis-service we can do for a fellow aviator who died is to not learn something.

Fly smart & abide.......

[RVDT]

It's happened with the hydraulics off - stick motored to full deflection and stayed there for 30 second

Unfortunately turning off the hydraulics is a flawed assumption as a few people have found out.

I note that a few condone the action on this thread.

Take a look at the "irreversible" function and how it works on some common models.

You may find that you are better off with HYD ON and friction ON.

Many years ago company policy for leaving the aircraft unattended was to NOT turn HYD OFF as they had found out the
hard way on more than one occasion!

Bull$hit and assumption will only get you so far!

[Boudreaux Bob]

RVDT speaks correctly.

Leave the Hydraulics ON...that is the standard mode that it was designed to use at all times.

Lots of Friction and a Control Lock if fitted is the right way.

[Gomer Pylot]

Hydraulics off, the controls can overcome even the tightest friction in some cases. Some aircraft are totally uncontrollable without hydraulics, and thus are required to have two independent systems. Some have only one system, but are only marginally controllable without it. The only time I would turn the hydraulics off in any helicopter would be for required checks or training. I've done hydraulics off landings in the AS350, but it's a handful, and you have to stay on top of it. Give it a minute or two without any intervention, and bad things may happen. With the hydraulics working and the friction tight, nothing should move. But I still wouldn't risk exiting with the engine running unless it was really, really necessary.