Missing yacht

[Top Bunk Tester]

BBC News - UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27462450)

Hopefully the Coastguard will be requesting that we immediately scramble one of our long range SAR assets ........

........ Oh hang on a minute :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I sincerely hope that the crew survive this ordeal.

[late-joiner]

Sadly the news was just saying the search has been called off. Have to say that seems rather premature.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Reported that they were taking on water, could not find the leak and were diverting to the Azores. They were in contact at some point with home base. Several hours between problem reported and contact lost.
That being the case, they would have had ample time to prepare their survival gear.

Only questions are; were they properly equipped and how well did the evac. go ?
The company is well established and conducts offshore training, and competes in the Fastnet, so the kit will have been up to spec.
Weather reported as F9 strong gale, which should not be a problem for a boat that size, but evac. could be tricky. One report said the hull was seen, capsized. Worse case scenario is a rapid capsize, but the liferaft should have been set up for deployment even if this happened.

[MATELO]

Question -Do these boats carry distress beacons on their life rafts ?

[Mechta]

After the 1979 Fastnet race, it was clear that sailors who stayed with their yachts stood a better chance of suvival than those who took to their liferafts. The advice from then on was 'only ever step up into a liferaft'.

Given that Tony Bullimore was able to survive for several days in the upturned hull of his yacht in the Southern/Antarctic Ocean, it certainly does seem premature to write these sailors off if the hull has been located.

[Wander00]

As a flyer and a sailor I wish them well

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Matelo - Apparently, it is not a standard requirement. I have a personal one*; I imagine the professional skipper at least had one also. Though maybe not....


*Fits in a pocket of the lifejacket, therefore usable if you go overboard, liferaft or not.

[Yellow Sun]

Sadly the news was just saying the search has been called off. Have to say that seems rather premature.

Good datum, capsized vessel found, US Coastguard will have ascertained that the coverage factor is >100% in the appropriate areas of probability. Then, and only then, they will have considered the likelihood of survival in a liferaft in the prevailing conditions and with great reluctance have concluded that the chances of survival are not realistic.

So if you feel that the decision to terminate the operation was premature, perhaps you could suggest the search tactics that should now be employed? How would a secure search be achieved in the new expanded area, and what assured coverage factor would you be prepared to accept?

YS

[fincastle84]

capsized vessel found,

The identity of the hull has not been ascertained. The weather conditions are described as poor. At that range I doubt that they had continuous cover & the datum would be several hours old by the time the 1st aircraft arrived on task.

Therefore I also consider the cancellation of the search to be rather premature. I am also frustrated that there is absolutely nothing that the UK government can do to offer assistance because that proponent of gay marriage, Cameron, killed the Nimrod.:ugh:

[Hangarshuffle]

Sad story this. Realistically, could the RAF carried out a location of these poor people, even with all their pre cut assets, say circa 1995 or some such time?
This is bound to be an on-going story in the future in the UK I would guess, if these poor people aren't found.
The search area indicated in the newspapers seems massive, could they not have got a better fix than this (see link to story).
4 British sailors missing at sea after yacht believed to have capsized in mid-Atlantic | Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-2631847/Four-British-sailors-missing-sea-40ft-yacht-sailing-Caribbean-UK-believed-capsized-mid-Atlantic.html)


Doe anyone think the RAF will ever regain very long range aircraft to carry out searches for people around the world?
Could a future drone type aircraft ever be developed.
Anyway, my thoughts with the men involved and their families.


Edited to add that like many in the UK really deep down I know zero about the capability of the Nimrod in a search role.

[500N]

Maybe I missed it but could someone explain why the boats EPIRB or the sailors EPIRB are not showing the exact location of where they are ?



I think the Tony Bullimore example is a very good one.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The 406MHz EPIRB can either give a location within 2-3 miles by satellite triangulation, or 100m with an integrated GPS (significantly more expensive).

Most of those I met going transatlantic had, as I did, a manually activated, non-gps unit.

[Andy_P]

Only questions are; were they properly equipped and how well did the evac. go ?
The company is well established and conducts offshore training, and competes in the Fastnet, so the kit will have been up to spec.
Weather reported as F9 strong gale, which should not be a problem for a boat that size, but evac. could be tricky. One report said the hull was seen, capsized. Worse case scenario is a rapid capsize, but the liferaft should have been set up for deployment even if this happened.

After the 1979 Fastnet rece, it was clear that sailors who stayed with their yachts stood a better chance of suvival than those who took to their liferafts. THe advice from then on was 'only ever step up into a liferaft'.


This is so true. As a sailor who has been at sea in F9 (and greater) the last place you want to be is in one off those life rafts unless you absolutely have to. The things are bad enough when you do your training in smooth water let alone big seas.

Not sure about fastnet, but in Aus any ocean racing under the umbrella of yachting australia requires you to carry a personal epirb. For the sake of $500 or so they are cheap insurance.

[The Old Fat One]

Doe anyone think the RAF will ever regain very long range aircraft to carry out searches for people around the world?

No, and we never did "carry out searches for people around the world". We carried out SAR within our area of responsibility. If we deployed for SAR it was either to support a fast jet deployment or to cover the overseas flights of Her Majesty.

It has become fashionable to lament the passing of our MPA by ex kipper mates suggesting/implying that we would have got involved with every high profile SAR effort, all over the globe.

We never did this and we would not be doing it now even if we still had an MPA. If we got involved with some random search for some random yacht/ship/aircraft outwith our area it was because we happened to be carrying out ops in that neck of the woods already. Not because we were sent there to do it. As I've posted before, despite the PR value, SAR is not a significant factor when it comes to deciding military priorities.

And for the homophobic ex Nimrod nav...long before the time we lost the fleet, continuous SAR cover was being compromised every which way. It was 2 hours standby, not one and it was being covered from home not the messes, usually by aircraft with more limitations than your social awareness. I think you'll find DC had f**k all to do with any of that.

[Ogre]

I haven't read all the details, and while I wish the sailors well and hope they are rescued the changes are probably slim.

My only concern is that this tale gets propelled to the forefront of the media with headlines demanding to know why more was not done. Unfortunately, and I think the entertainment side of the media has something to answer for here, there is a swathe of the general public that believe anyone can be rescued from anything!

The truth of the matter is that there are risks in everything you do, and at some point you may find yourself in a position where there will be no-one who can help you.

[TBM-Legend]

Why can't an RAF C-130 carry out a search? USCG and others use them! Forward deploy to the Azores perhaps!

[500N]

Looking at the latest Map of the last known position, it was only 600NM off the coast of the US.

In any case, why is it the UK's responsibility, it's miles from your SAR area ?

[sargs]

TOFO:
No, and we never did "carry out searches for people around the world".We never did this and we would not be doing it now even if we still had an MPA. If we got involved with some random search for some random yacht/ship/aircraft outwith our area it was because we happened to be carrying out ops in that neck of the woods already. Not because we were sent there to do it.
That's not true. A Nimrod was deployed to ASI specifically to search for an aircraft that had gone missing somewhere in the S Atlantic between ASI and Africa. Don't remember the details, because I wasn't there, but I believe that an account was published in Air Clues.

[Hangarshuffle]

Questions raised about hunt for missing British yachtsmen - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10839697/Questions-raised-about-hunt-for-missing-British-yachtsmen.html)

[500N]

It does seem to be an incredibly short duration of searching.

[Trim Stab]

My first question to the operating company is whether that yacht has ever been run aground before.

A Beneteau 40.7 could only capsize and stay capsized if the keel fell off. That could only happen if there was some previous damage to the area where the keel is attached to the hull. The Beneteau First series of boats are regatta yachts and are very susceptible to damage in a grounding due to a deep high-aspect ratio keel which has only a small area to transmit loads to the hull. A keel starting to work loose would explain them taking in water, and being unable to verify the source of the leak since the bilge pumps are inside a pit in the keel area.

They had a sat-phone and if they had time to abandon ship, they could have sent a message, so I suspect they capsized and sank too quickly to get into their liferaft. This would also be consistent with keel failure.

If the photo of they yacht in the Gruaniad is recent, it does not look like they had a fixed EPIRB, which is not unusual for a coastal racing yacht. They probably rented the sat-phone expecting that to be sufficient for their off-shore trip back home.

As for personal EPIRBs, they have very low power and need a stable platform and clear view of the sky to have any chance of being picked up.

[500N]

Trim Stab

I think that is a good assessment, covers the leak, the pumps, the capsize.

[rh200]

It does seem to be an incredibly short duration of searching.
yep, keeping in mind the effort we went for to get Bullimore

[500N]

Yes, I remember that well, that went on and on and on because of the distance involved - plus everyone was on holidays so more time to catch up on the news.

[A and C]

The cost of a 406Mhz GPS PLB becomes irrelevant when you are up to your neck in ocean, I will not rent an aircraft to a customer for a cross channel flight without providing one and making sure that they know how to use it..........if they choose to not wear the life jacket that it is attached to and stow it in the baggage bay that is their business.

I would have thought that a similar attitude would have been SOP within the ocean going sailing world, after all the cost of a GPS PLB for each crew member is not high in comparison with the cost of owning and maintaining such a vessel.

[oxenos]

Always a sad moment when a search is called off, but I never recall a search I was involved in being called off without us thinking that everything possilble had been done and that there was no other option.
In this case it a relatively small area (4800 sq. miles has been quoted), presumably based on an accurate LKP, was searched from early Friday to early Sunday. Not sure a longer search would be justified.
What is worrying is the failure to investigate the upturned hull more thoroughly.

[Wander00]

Just googled "Beneteau 40.7 keel failure" - no history of keel failures showing on the search. However, would not have been the first time someone took a keel off on semi submerged object like a container. Feel for them and families, not least as my youngest is a commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Ocean, although working ashore at present.

[Tankertrashnav]

I am also frustrated that there is absolutely nothing that the UK government can do to offer assistance because that proponent of gay marriage, Cameron, killed the Nimrod.:ugh:


I fail to see what connection gay marriage has to do with the cancellation of the Nimrod. It is quite possible to be, like me, both a supporter of gay marriage and a proponent of the RAF retaining a long range maritime aircraft. The two have no connection whatsoever.

SAR is not an area I have any expertise in but I am sure these guys wouldn't have given up the search lightly. It seems like the sea has claimed four more, but at least they were doing what they loved.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Trim Stab - a good question and a plausible scenario.

Edit DT reporting Maersk Kure reported keel was missing

I'm not sure about the inverted stability point you make though. My understanding was that a monohull could stay inverted once capsized, especially if the hull were already partially flooded. Also, partial flooding could increase the risk of capsize in the first place.

I note from a recent fatal during a race on the Great Lakes that 2 crew (of 6) were knocked unconscious during a capsize in similar conditions and subsequently drowned. I carried and used an old kayaking helmet for very rough conditions.

I did the North Sea Race about 20 years ago in F8-F10 conditions (similar to the recent accident). This was as navigator on a well-found RAFSA cruising yacht, with a skipper who had skippered in the Whitbread in the Southern Ocean - very educational. Relevant points are that we stopped racing at F10 and hove-to, then started racing again when the wind dropped. We won our class, beating all the cruiser racers, and came second overall to a larger cruising yacht (Hallberg Rassy). Two cruiser racers did start to break up and had to be rescued by rig support vessels. It was the bulkheads which gave out due to excessive flexing, not the keels. However these were both racer-cruisers really, less conservative designs than the First 40.7

I also spent most of one night doing Pan Pan relays for damaged yachts and those that had lost their electronics and thus their position (no back-ups/physical map plotting).:ugh:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A and C
It can be surprisingly cheap to run a boat - there are a large number of people doing it on a shoestring, it being their home as well as their means of transport. You meet a lot of people from poorer countries for whom sailing round the world is just affordable. Not everybody owns a First 40 and parks it in a marina.
Secondly, there's the argument Blondie Haslar made before the first Transatlantic race, that he wouldn't want to put anyone to the trouble of rescuing him.
Lastly, in the deep ocean, there are a large number of accident scenarios where the beacon would just tell people where to find your body.

None of these applies to people renting your aircraft, and I have a beacon myself; but there isn't a good argument for making them, or any other electronic gizmo, SOP.

[Trim Stab]

I'm not sure about the inverted stability point you make though. My understanding was that a monohull could stay inverted once capsized, especially if the hull were already partially flooded.

A modern yacht would never pass certification if it was capable of staying upside down, even if partly flooded. Some extreme racing boats used to be so beamy that they had no righting moment when inverted, but these have now all been banned (well except for multi-hulls but that is a different argument).

The Beneteau 40.7 is CE certified as a Cat A boat (designed to cope with over F8 and waves over 4m). Unfortunately the certification process only examines measurable factors such as AVS, ballast ratio, down flooding etc and does not take into account factors such as build quality. The Beneteaus are built to be light and fast, not to stand up to days of bashing in a storm. They are counter moulded and have no stiffening stringers, so flex badly in heavy weather (I call them Bendytoys). They also suffer very badly at the keel/hull join when grounded hard - I've examined a smaller First that almost sunk after a grounding against a sandbar (something which I do regularly in my boat!).

Having said that, lots of people have sailed them around the world, including around Cape Horn, and I read an account recently of a German couple who sailed one through the North West passage.

[500N]

One question I have is why were they headed to the Azores when they were so close to the coast of the US ?


Can anyone tell anything from the photo of the upturned hull in the DM ?

Families of one of British sailors lost in Atlantic call for fresh search | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2632543/Daughter-one-British-sailors-lost-Atlantic-Claire-Goslin-calls-fresh-search.html)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Trim Stab - thanks.
I've helped deliver a new Beneteau, USA-Virgin Islands. The electrics were...interesting!

One question I have is why were they headed to the Azores when they were so close to the coast of the US ?
Probably prevailing wind direction. The engine can be unusable in those conditions (prop out of the water often). Also, I doubt they had the fuel for 600nm under engine. General advice is to go downwind if the rig is still up.

[500N]

Thanks.

Yes, it does make sense. I am not a sailor (wind type).

[RileyDove]

Seems sad that the biggest clue to their location wasn't inspected -i.e the hull .
At least the families would have some closure.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

http://www.seapixonline.com/NSImages2/Regina%20Maersk,%201996%20(1)%20.jpg

Impossible to get anywhere near the hull with the Maersk, especially in 20 foot seas, never mind attempting a rescue.

There are certain activities and parts of the world where there is still little hope of rescue, much less a right to rescue.

[Trim Stab]

Can anyone tell anything from the photo of the upturned hull in the DM ?

Families of one of British sailors lost in Atlantic call for fresh search | Mail Online

Difficult to be sure, but the vertical object does indeed look like the sort of unskegged deep rudder on the Beneteau First, and the smaller dark object above it and to the left in the photograph could indeed be the sail-drive unit - in which case the keel is definitely missing.

Here is a line drawing of the yacht which shows the underwater appendages:

http://www.murrayyachtsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Sailplan.jpg

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I agree with Trim Stab - the proportions of skeg/hull length are correct. The liferaft aboard was likely a 10 man, as this was the authorised max crew for that boat according to the company's website. Presumably the Coastguard failed to find any sign of this.

[Loerie]

Many yachts take this route after sailing out of Antigua en route to the UK or the Med after Antigua Race Week.Many pass close-ish to Bermuda ( & so leave Bermuda to Port) in a great circle tending East to follow the prevailing winds in April and May.It does indeed look as if they lost their keel having either been grounded at some stage or colliding with something at sea causing keel bolt damage.Such an impact must have been serious IMO to cause such extensive fast flooding.As a long time experieced Skipper I am also surprised that no inspection has yet been made of the capsized hull.Surely 600 nm from land is do-able for S & R ?
I guess it depends on weather conditions,but still...

[Lonewolf_50]

In a press release, the US Coastguard said the search area had involved approximately 4,146 square miles and it was "extremely disappointed" not to have found the sailors.

Winds at the start of the search were said to have been blowing at more than 50mph, the sea reached heights of up to 20ft and visibility was reduced to under a mile.

"It is extremely challenging to respond to a distress case so far off shore, which is why it takes a joint effort with our international partners to put forward an effective search," it said.
There's a bugger of a search mission. :eek:

[Jet In Vitro]

In the past we deployed Nimrod and tankers to Lajes and Ascension to conduct SAR.

Currently long range SAR is covered off by C130 and other inappropriate aircraft.

It would be good to have a choice of wether to continue the search.

[Wensleydale]

"It would be good to have a choice of wether to continue the search"

Not wishing to impinge upon the seriousness of the situation, but does the quote above from JiV's post contain a bad spell of weather?

[Loerie]

Looking through the posts.....someone said she was about 600 nm from the US East Coast....and others are talking about making for the Azores;does anyone perhaps have the Lat and Lon?
Thanks---sorry if I missed the info if already posted.

[500N]

Not sure where the thread has gone but it was listed in another
thread about the missing yacht and keeping an eye out when
flying over the position.

I think the thread might have been deleted.

Still looking.


EDIT
Can't find it anywhere !

[fincastle84]

Surely they could try again. After all just consider the time, effort & cost which went into the search for the Malaysian Airlines flight, where the search area was the whole Indian Ocean!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

38 34' N, 48 15' W I think. Still 20 kts+ out there, poor vis.

[Dengue_Dude]

Probably a crew of Lib-Dems . . .

Sorry.

Whether or not 'our' loss of MPA assets is relevant in this particular case, I've no idea.

When you consider how it would have helped in ANY S&R scenario and in operations such has the Horn of Africa pirate patrols etc, it makes you realise how far we have fallen.

We, as a nation, still expect OUR ships and our personnel to be safe - who is SUPPOSED to do that?

[NutLoose]

I must admit I was surprised it had been called off without inspecting the hull, especially bearing in mind that dramatic racing accidents where the people have survived in upturned hulls


Eg

Sail-World.com : Stamm rescued from upturned Hull (http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/usa/Stamm-rescued-from-upturned-Hull/13691)

VARIOUS: BRITISH SOLO SAILOR TONY BULLIMORE RESCUED (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//RTV/1997/01/08/701080006/?s=liferaft)

One would have thought they would first check that before calling it off..... Bring back flying boats for SAR

[Top Bunk Tester]

Although now idle speculation, my money would be that a long range SAR/MPA aircraft WOULD have been deployed by now regardless of what had happened in the past. I believe if we had the assets and the government refused to send then the backlash would have been severe. It will be interesting to see if the press pick up on this and run with it.

[Lonewolf_50]

Can someone explain to me the assumption that the hull was not "inspected" by whatever aircraft flew by? If you fly by the hull and there are not bodies visible, just what do you expect to find? At this range, my estimation is that you are asking a fixed wing aircraft to "inspect the hull" as it flies over it.

If there is no evidence of bodies on/near the overturned hull, just what is it you think is to be found?

Please advise.
One would have thought they would first check that before calling it off.
Checked for ... how? Send a ship out there? Is that your request?

[500N]

Lone

Yes, send a ship out there.

Only way to find out if someone inside, dead or alive.

And we know people can survive alive inside for days.

[Lonewolf_50]

Thanks.

By all means, ring the USCG and suggest same.

[Loerie]

Thanks very much;I looked up the position on Bouyweather as I have no Chart here at home.The Yacht appears to have been in the "normal" route area following the breeze east to the Azores.The weather in that area is quite good right now....15-20 close with a moderate sea and fair viz.I would think that the position is attainable with equipment out of Bermuda?The normal drift of a raft would have been with the prevailing Trades?Rafts are not much affected by currents when there is a decent wind.Interesting to hear that another Beneteau---a 51.5 was lost in that approx area very recently....will be interesting to see what happens.What a shocking situation to be in for the crew....trophys in Antigua and now this.....terrible.

[Loerie]

Lonewolf,
I think your reply is unfeeling and quite unnecessary (sp)
If there is the tiniest chance that there is life in that upturned hull or in a drifting raft every effort should be made to ensure so one way or the other?I respect the number of posting you have made on this forum but maybe you need to erase your last one.Its up to the USCG to consider extending their time in the air or at sea.I see there are thousands of folks who are asking for a longer or resumed search for the crew and a short two-day search does seem to be short in view of quite normal survival times in liferafts which exceed several days,weeks and months?I am not an aviator but feel for lost aircrew and passengers equally with seaman.Dismissal is not really an option as you seem to support.Regards.....and I am sure the right decision will be made soon.

[RHKAAF]

I did SAR flights out of HongKong for seventeen years and we would never have given up the search after a few days. Admittedly the decision in HongKong was in the hands of the Marine Department and they were responsible for diverting ships in the area to locate any survivors. The weather was often atrocious in typhoon conditions but we persevered while there was still an outside chance of locating survivors. Do the US Coastguard have access to any naval vessels capable of reaching and searching the area ? If not, a request to the US Navy for assistance could be made.

[Loerie]

If you look at Passageweather or Bouyweather and type in & scroll the co-ords,the position is not all that far (by airtime) from Bermuda?
I would think there must be assets in Bermuda which quite often has to help Mariners?
Seems to be North and East of Bermuda which is normal for Yachtsmen going back to the Med.
Lets hope that they will keep looking,calculating drift and currents as the wind dies.....which is forecaste.Thanks guys.

[500N]

Lonewolf

Why would you not expect a ship to be sent out there ?

An aircraft can do a fly by of the hull but surely the only way to check
if anyone is inside is to get someone to it ?

[Wrathmonk]

Do such sailors (i.e trans-atlantic, round the world etc) carry personal liability insurance in order to cover the costs of such search and rescue operations which could

exceed several days,weeks and months

If they don't should they (particularly in these times of 'shrinking' funds available to the military (of most nations) to undertake its primary roles)? At the end of the day someone has to foot the bill (in most cases the taxpayer). And however harsh it may sound I bet a commercial organisation is not going to want its ships diverted far from its route - perhaps a one time pass through the area but I bet they don't undertake any sort of formal search pattern (without significant compensation from .....the taxpayer???). Time is money after all....

Or is it a case of the cost is too much to the individual therefore no one would take the cover and the outrage bus would have to be fired up everytime a search is abandoned as a 'missing, presumed dead'.

Of course the same question of insurance could be asked of any of the hazardous hobbies/occupations on offer.....

[Lonewolf_50]

Loerie
I am pretty sure that the USCG knows their own limits better than I. Hence, my suggestion to contact the USCG and find out. I was not being flippant.

500N
Why would you not expect a ship to be sent out there?As it is beyond the coastal area, and it is a pleasure craft, there may be some operational limitations in place, from the administrative side. A decade ago, I'd be surprised if we didn't send a ship out into the open ocean for a look see, given that the location was confirmed. Now, I am not surprised when such things don't happen.
An aircraft can do a fly by of the hull but surely the only way to check if anyone is inside is to get someone to it ? That was more or less my point.

RHKAAF
I did SAR flights out of HongKong for seventeen years and we would never have given up the search after a few days.
Welcome to the year 2014.
Do the US Coastguard have access to any naval vessels capable of reaching and searching the area ?
The US Coast Guard have ships amply suited to open ocean operations. Cutters.
If not, a request to the US Navy for assistance could be made.
By whom?
If the Coast Guard are constrained from going by what I suspect is something on the rules side, what makes you think they'd ask the Navy to divert assets there?
Welcome to the year 2014.

Let's look at the political spin if you send a ship out there, or ask the US Navy to go out there:

"They are sending our taxpayer's assets out there to go look for some rich fellow's play toy."

Whether that is true or not, that is the poisonous political environment in which we live in this country. This in turn has an influence on what use is made of public assets.

Hate to break that news to you, but

Welcome to the year 2014. :mad:

[Loerie]

Many of us do carry added Insurance at sea,but not all do.Rescue services will pin the costs on the Mariner or their Employer but many cannot pay or do not have the ability to pay.Most Ocean Skippers are paid a measly $2.00 per mile and crew get nothing.I wonder what contribution passenger Underwriters make to passengers of Aircraft lost to be searched for?Or is this just for Hull?
Yours is an interesting question,but how do you equate human life and suffering waiting for rescue to USD or Euro`s etc spent?
I think such rescue is Priceless.....a real difficult decision for the Searchers.

[Trim Stab]

Do such sailors (i.e trans-atlantic, round the world etc) carry personal liability insurance in order to cover the costs of such search and rescue operations which could

No. Even fully comprehensive insurance does not cover the cost of a rescue operation, because this is never charged to persons rescued at sea. However, the cost of salvage is - there was a case a year or so ago where a couple abandoned their yacht (also a Bendytoy) in the Pacific and were rescued by a passing ship. Unfortunately for them, their yacht washed up intact a few months later on an Australian beach. I say unfortunately because, rather than giving them their yacht back, the Australian coastguard gave them a massive bill for salvage -a nd they weren't insured.

If they don't should they (particularly in these times of 'shrinking' funds available to the military (of most nations) to undertake its primary roles)? At the end of the day someone has to foot the bill (in most cases the taxpayer). And however harsh it may sound I bet a commercial organisation is not going to want its ships diverted far from its route - perhaps a one time pass through the area but I bet they don't undertake any sort of formal search pattern (without significant compensation from .....the taxpayer???). Time is money after all....

Nearby vessels have an obligation to help (SOLAS Chapter V regulation 33) if they hear a distress call or are requisitioned to do so by the relevant authority.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/regulations/regulation33.htm

[500N]

Lone

OK

I thought SAR was a responsibility for the country regardless of who it is
if it is in the designated area ?

What if Australia had said, "Stuff it, it's Christmas, the Navy crew are on leave and these are only
rich people playing with big boys toys, Bullimore and Dubois can sort themselves out" ???

[Lonewolf_50]

Lone

I thought SAR was a responsibility for the country regardless of who it is
if it is in the designated area ?
Indeed.
What if Australia had said, "Stuff it, it's Christmas, the Navy crew are on leave and these are only rich people playing with big boys toys, Bullimore and Dubois can sort themselves out" ???
Good question.

There is more here than meets the eye. I'll be interested to learn in time just what was behind the search termination decision. My guess is that the operators at the pointy end were a bit surprised to see it cut off with the hull was located.

[500N]

Lonewolf

Re "There is more here than meets the eye."

Now you say it like that, I think you might be right.


Look at the effort the US went to recently to rescue that sick baby on a yacht.

Multiple C-130 flights out there, 11 para rescue people jumped into the sea, helos fly out there using air to air refueling,
a ship sent out that could take helos so they could recover back to a ship instead of flying all the way back to land.

Big difference between the two SAR efforts.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

As a sailor, I did not 'expect' to be rescued at any distance offshore. It is a sport/hobby, I had no insurance, and long range SAR is extremely expensive. I made my own arrangements in the event of capsize. In the worst case, a pick-up would have been a bonus, not an expectation.

No other skippers I met ocean cruising 'expected' a major SAR effort either. An aircraft flyby if (and only if) the SAR guys had a 'long range SAR' training tick in the box to get, and the diversion of a nearby ship - exactly what happened in this case - would have been nice.

I always used to think of the opportunity cost - how many more heart transplants could be done for the cost of long range SAR? - oodles!

[Loerie]

Lonewolf,
Your post was indeed flippant and hurtful to family.Sorry that it came across as such and I am sure it was not intended.
Having said that you do,of course have a point with the costs associated with say the USCG looking for a ship or yacht way out of the (normal) US territorial waters.
However,the CG do rule quite large expanses or water way beyond the US territorial limits,so where do you draw the line---one way or both ways?
I cannot see that the taxpayer can be expected to pay looking for aircraft and vessels & crew in the middle of the Atlantic so who does?
Who is paying for MH370?
One can debate this back and forth for hours and days while the crew are in terrible danger and imminent loss of life.
I am sure that the correct decision will be made,the search re-searched and the guys found----but why the bulk carrier just apparently took pics----whatever their reasoning----- and went on by is beyond me----there could have been people in that upturned hull....be well and enjoy yr day.

[Trim Stab]

Here's a better picture taken from the Maersk:

http://cdn.imghack.se/images/d73859c97c903f7d1240c131bdfe55de.jpg

[4Greens]

If nothing else this is a good exercise for a country's SAR assets.

[500N]

The tax payer pays for it. Not liked but that's the way it goes.

A lot of discussion was had re the cost of the Bullimore / Dubois rescue but the Gov't just said that it is part of Australia's responsibility and that is that.

[500N]

The Maersk seems to be traveling at some speed as it went past.

[Loerie]

Thanks very much Strim Tab.....clearly lost her keel.Sea conditions look quite benign.....sad thay were unable to stop and take a look...

[Trim Stab]

Sea conditions look quite benign..

That's because they are using their freeboard to shelter the yacht.

sad thay were unable to stop and take a look...

They did everything they can. Merchant ships don't carry any diving gear or anybody trained to use it, nor even scramble netting to get up and down the freeboard, and if they did, it takes a lot of fitness to climb up scramble nets on the side of rolling ship. The only auxiliary boat they would have is their lifeboat which cannot be recovered when launched. I am sure they would have launched it if there had been somebody clinging to the hull, or if somebody had suddenly popped out from under the hull like Tony Bullimore did.

[500N]

And it takes ages to stop one and trying to stop a big container ship
next to an upturned hull of a yacht, good luck.

[Lonewolf_50]

Your post was indeed flippant and hurtful to family. Some unemotional information was presented by the Coast Guard spokesman, as rendered in the Telegraph.
However,the CG do rule quite large expanses or water way beyond the US territorial limits,so where do you draw the line---one way or both ways? Very good question. As I said to 500N, ten years ago I think the response would have been something different. The USCG spokesman pointed out that the location was at least a week to get there in terms of getting a vessel to the location of the wreckage.
I cannot see that the taxpayer can be expected to pay looking for aircraft and vessels & crew in the middle of the Atlantic so who does? Well asked. Since we, the U.S. of A, signed on to an international agreement on SAR, we can certainly bear part of the cost of fulfilling our agreement, if not more.
That's how I see it.
In the past, I think we bore a lot more, but that seems to have changed.
Who is paying for MH370? That is not the same case, as that is a matter of public transport. Likewise, there was communication with the troubled yacht, unlike MH-370. There is some evidence of dirty work in the MH-370 event. FDR/CVR may help solve that. Not so with the yacht.
This case seems very much an accident, with weather as a complicator/agent. See previous communications with the skipper noted above.
One can debate this back and forth for hours and days while the crew are in terrible danger and imminent loss of life. It is unfortunate that Maersk didn't have the kit on hand to do more than take a good look at the wreck.
I am sure that the correct decision will be made,the search re-searched and the guys found----but why the bulk carrier just apparently took pics----whatever their reasoning----- and went on by is beyond me----there could have been people in that upturned hull....be well and enjoy yr day.
That was also addressed by the USCG spokesman.
They aren't equipped to do that.
Nor, I'll bet, are the crew so trained.
Something about minimum operating costs keeps the size and skill set of crews down.

You may wish to initiate formal correspondence with the shipping company and find out what they see is within their responsibilities and capabilities. The master of that vessel is a professional mariner. I suspect his decisions were in keeping with that profession.

There are a number of professional mariners who post on the forums whose comments will be of interest.

TrimStab: thanks for that link to SOLAS.

[500N]

Have never steered a big ship like that but I reckon that is a pretty good job to steer it so close to the hull without actually hitting it.

Maybe someone can comment on how easy it is to put it so close
without actually hitting it.

[biddedout]

As has been mentioned earlier, in the late 80's HMG saw for to deploy a 120 Sqn Nimrod to ASI in order or search for two missing Cessna 210 aircraft and their two Australian ferry pilots off the west coast of Africa. The aircraft with the assistance of a passing Herc tanker flew about 85 hours searching and the whole mission used up 100+ Flying hours. It was rumoured that the Aus government or the families were contributing to the cost but all in all, it was a very expensive mission and it wasn't abandoned until wreckage and a possible body was spotted. So why is it different this time? (Apart from the fact that we haven't got any long range SAR).

[GreenKnight121]

I (don't) like how several people have remarked that Bermuda (UK territory?) is closer to the yacht's position, but are still slanging on about the USCG being derelict in its duties.

Surely it is the Bermuda authorities who would be responsible for sending a boat to physically check the hull... if nothing else to place a scuttling charge on the hull to remove it as a hazard to navigation?

[rh200]

"They are sending our taxpayer's assets out there to go look for some rich fellow's play toy."

Actually its not to look for some rich fellow's toy, its to make sure their are no survivors. Personally I think there's other information behind the decision.

As we know, there have been cases where survivors have been found after a significant amount of time. There would be no shortage of sorrow if the hull was found at some later time, with someone dead inside, with some proof they had survived for a significant amount of time.

Being from a country that has a various times had to rescue people out in the middle of nowhere, I can understand the frustrations in regards to cost etc. But the fact is if there is a chance, and it isn't going to endanger the rescuers, its worth the cost.

[500N]

Re cost, it gets back to this age old argument.

If they are Coast Guard or Military assets and people, then they will be paid regardless of going out on a SAR mission.

Then it comes down to fuel, wear and tear, depreciation etc.

If it's civilian / commercial, then yes, it does cost.

If you have a SAR area that you take as yours, well, you can't complain
when you have to do SAR missions.

[Trim Stab]

I (don't) like how several people have remarked that Bermuda (UK territory?) is closer to the yacht's position, but are still slanging on about the USCG being derelict in its duties.

Surely it is the Bermuda authorities who would be responsible for sending a boat to physically check the hull... if nothing else to place a scuttling charge on the hull to remove it as a hazard to navigation?

Areas of responsibility for SAR are governed by IMO treaties:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2n04jfp.gif

[500N]

Looks to be right in the USA SAR area ?

[dalek]

Tony Bullimore lived for days in an upturned yacht. The Australians made massive efforts to get to him, even before they knew he was alive.
There does not seem to have been any significant effort to investigate the upturned boat in this case?

[500N]

" The Australians made massive efforts to get to him, even before they knew he was alive."

I think it was onetrack that said something along these lines.

The Crew of the HMAS Adelaide was on Xmas leave, the skipper got a call at 0100 hrs and had to sail by 1600 hours the same day !!!. They scratched together a crew at very short notice and set off, the helo embarked at sea when underway. They picked up the French sailor on the way before continuing south towards Antarctica. I think they took 5 - 7 days to get there in some very rough seas from memory. Two other ships, one navy, one private were also used to replenish the HMAS Adelaide at sea which meant she could run at full speed the whole way there and back.

They were 1400 nm south of Perth so at a minimum 2800 nm !

It cost Australia a packet !


They also used 5 x P3 Orions with 6 crew to provide an almost continuous presence over the French Yachtsman,
a total of 158 flying hours.

[rh200]

I think they took 5 - 7 days to get there in some very rough seas from memory. Two other ships were also used to replenish the HMAS Adelaide at sea which meant she could run at full speed the whole way there and back.

Yep, and at the very least it could be written off as a realistic excersise/ drill. In this case it turned out even better.

[thunderbird7]

I believe that in SAR scenarios one cannot not pick and choose which incidents should be prosecuted as far as possible. Who gets the right to play god/allah/jehovah etc? It just goes with the territory and so long as the lives of those carrying out the mission are not put in danger, then that's what they are there for. Those very operators would probably agree 100% with that.

On a smaller scale it's no different to mountain rescue teams around the world picking ramblers and mountaineers off the hills..

[Andy_P]

A modern yacht would never pass certification if it was capable of staying upside down, even if partly flooded. Some extreme racing boats used to be so beamy that they had no righting moment when inverted, but these have now all been banned (well except for multi-hulls but that is a different argument).


Going to have to disagree with you there. Lots of modern yachts pass audits as self righting, but that does not mean they will self right in all conditions. Notebly, water ballasted sports yachts. I have seen a couple go upside down and not come back up. The beneteau however is not one of these boats.

As for multi's, at least us multi sailors are not under the false preconception that a boat will always self right :}

[Trim Stab]

It cost Australia a packet !

Also won Australia a huge amount of admiration and goodwill, especially in France and UK.

It also lead to changes in the IMOCA regulations for offshore racing boats and to changes in the routing of the Vendee Globe to prevent sailors from taking excessive risks by routing too far south.

[RHKAAF]

Lonewolf
I do not understand what you are implying in your phrase " welcome to 2014 "
Are you saying that standards of basic humanity have slipped in the USA to such an extent that the search was terminated prematurely on cost grounds or that it was put into the "too difficult" category ?
Personally I am hoping for the search by air AND sea to recommence when the weather improves. The people at the sharp end in the coastguard and navy must be itching to get out there . The underlying thought should be that it could be someone in your family still out there.

[500N]

Trim Stab

Re changes, Very true indeed. Australia's SAR changed not long after as well with AMSA being set up in Canberra as the central point for all SAR in this country.

I was not complaining about the cost, just pointing out what a country sometimes has to do as part of a SAR in it's area.

In fact the document some of that info came from highlighted the fact that Australia took it's responsibilities very seriously.

[NutLoose]

You would think there would be an international fund set up to pay towards the cost of carrying out rescues outside international waters, funded by ship owners and governments the World over with the emphsis on the nearest capable country going to their assistance..

Its sad that costs have now come into the equation, saving lives should never be cost orientated.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This morning, the LAA sent an e-mail to all Members urging them to sign the petition for continuation of SAR Ops by the US. One of the missing crew is an LAA Member. All well, good and commendable but there is a sub note that irritated me, at least. It's a criticism of our politicians for not sending any of our aircraft to join the search. Not a criticism for no longer having a Type usefully capable but for dithering over sending anything.

If aviators and aero engineers can be ignorant of the now possible, the man on the famous Clapham bus must be totally clueless.

[500N]

GBZ

Re the UK sending an aircraft, the thing is, isn't that why you have SAR areas ?

OK, big SAR efforts everyone comes together such as MH370 but if the UK send an aircraft for this one, then the demand will be made again for the next British person in trouble.

And correct me if I am wrong but isn't it a boat that is required, not an aircraft ? You can use any aircraft to fly over the hull but don't we need someone to look inside it ?

[Wander00]

It seems very quiet on the other side of the Pond. But if I was running the Coastguard might I have a reservation on taking up the search again in case it was discovered that continuing the first search might have brought a more successful outcome. Presumably there will be a (UK) MAIB Inquiry, which might of course comment on the USCG input. I for one hope there will be another search and that, against the odds, it has some success.

[500N]

Have a read of this - and relate it to how long Bullimore survived !

"Locator beacons activated by the crew indicated the ship was 1,000 miles east of Massachusetts early Friday, amid 15-foot seas and winds surpassing 50 knots. The air temperature was 59 degrees and the water was 60 degrees, Popiel said.

Based on those conditions, and assuming that best-case emergency equipment was utilized, the Coast Guard estimated they could not have survived more than 20 hours beyond the initial distress call. Crews from North Carolina, Georgia and Canada spent 53 hours searching an area of more than 4,000 square miles. At least one commercial liner, the 1,000-foot Maersk Kure, also took part in those efforts and located an overturned hull that matched the description of the Cheeki Rafiki, but found no sign of the sailors.


“Air and sea crews continued to search throughout the afternoon and night and into the next morning for any small indication of debris or search objects,” Popiel said in a statement. “After more than two days of searching and no indication of surviving crew members, the U.S. Coast Guard made the difficult decision to suspend search efforts.”"


Search called off for 4 Britons on 40-foot yacht missing in mid-Atlantic | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/19/search-ends-for-four-britons-on-40-foot-yacht-missing-in-mid-atlantic/)

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf
I do not understand what you are implying in your phrase " welcome to 2014 "
Are you saying that standards of basic humanity have slipped in the USA to such an extent that the search was terminated prematurely on cost grounds or that it was put into the "too difficult" category ?.
No, but you just did. Someone had to defend the decision to send, or not to send, a ship out there to further check out the overturned hull the Maersk ship took a look at.
The decision was, it seems, that with the wreck found, nobody around it, and no further evidence of the four sailors after further search with a pretty decent datum, that doing so would not be productive.
If you note what 500N (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/540056-missing-yacht-5.html#post8485521)posted just above me, somebody went through a formal process in arriving at that decision.

As I was not in the USCG SAR ops center, as I was not party to whatever discussion went on between American and Canadian (and perhaps other?, Bermuda?) SAR professionals, I am guessing as much as you.

I have expanded my comments in discourse with others since I posted that, please visit those posts to see if your question is answered.

It will be interesting reading if one can ever get the "final report" from this SAR operation. I too am interested in the decision process. I won't speculate further.

To repeat something that maybe you don't understand:

1. A whole lot of things that didn't used to get politicized and attract outrage in this country now do. Welcome to 2014, the age of continual outrage and the drama queen. The world chages, and not always for the better.
2. The political atmosphere in this country has become toxic at the local, state, and federal level.
3. DHS (for whom our Coast Guard work, not DoD) is as subject to the effects of that toxic political environment as any other government agency.

[Out Of Trim]

Just announced on LBC Radio (UK)

The US Coastgurd to resume Search for the 4 missing yacht crew..

Best of luck and hope results are fruitful. :ok:

[Lonewolf_50]

Interesting. I'll check a few USCG sites and see if they will elaborate.

[sbdorset]

The real flaw in the USCG logic for calling the search off is the 20 hour survival calculation. Someone must have assumed they did not make it into a liferaft - an assumption which is hard to understand. The info that the PLB's that were used were switched on in sequence, i.e. one until it's battery failed and then the other, suggests they MAY have made it to the liferaft which surely, given the ingress of water, would have been prepared for immediate use by such an experienced crew.

Keep searching guys....

[late-joiner]

I agree, I would love to know the logic behind that 20 hour calculation. The Cheeki Rafiki crew were experienced, knew something was wrong with their yacht, may well have been in dry suits, if not should have had time to get into immersion suits, should have had time to check the liferaft was clear to deploy and had time to trigger 2x satellite beacons some time apart. It would be very unlucky for all four of them to have been simultaneously incapacitated such that none either found sanctuary under the hull or were able to get into the liferaft.

[fincastle84]

Many thanks to the USCG for restarting the search. God speed in your efforts & many prayers are winging their way across the Atlantic for a successful outcome to your endeavours.

Also many thanks to those who signed the on line petition. I'm sure that the weight of human support has been influential in the decision to resume the search.:ok:

[Lonewolf_50]

Looks like opinions are all over the map.
You have yours, others have theirs.

Mr Cameron is quoted as thanking the USCG for resuming the search.
Some interesting bits from a bit of web trawling ...


Veteran yachtsman Tony Bullimore: 'Strong possibility' missing yachtsmen are in life raft Veteran yachtsman Tony Bullimore: 'Strong possibility' yachtsmen are still in life raft - ITV News (http://itv.co/1hZBgOR)
BREAK: HM coastguard "we believe that the US Coast Guard has done all they can to locate the stricken yacht and her crew" #cheekirafiki
https://twitter.com/itvnews
HM Coastguard said in a statement it believes its US counterparts have done "all they can" to locate and search for the yacht and her crew "since this sad situation began".

"The Cheeki Rafiki is believed to have run into difficulty approximately 1,000 miles east of Massachusetts, USA. Based on the information provided to us, we believe that the US Coast Guard has done all they can to locate the stricken yacht and her crew," the statement said.

Defence secretary Philip Hammond said there was nothing for British authorities to do in the case of the missing British crew of the Cheeki Rafiki yacht lost since last Friday. "This is in the United States, Canadian air sea rescue area, they are the responsible authority and they have searched it very extensively. The conclusion that they have reached is that there is no hope of rescuing these people now," he said.

[Wander00]

Brilliant decision, and a tribute to those who have kept up the pressure. Now let's hope there is a good outcome. Thank you, USCG.

[Madbob]

On a tangent. Had this been say the crew of an EA-6 Prowler and it had gone off the bow of a CVN and there were known to be 4 guys in the water - fate unknown. How long would the USN have kept up a SAR effort before saying all hope was gone? Assume same sea temp and air temp, wx etc as in this scenario and assume the location was similar; i.e. a long way from land-based air.......

As a guess I'd say 48 hours. Much the same as here. Sad but true.

MB

[Lonewolf_50]

Had this been say the crew of an EA-6 Prowler and it had gone off the bow of a CVN and there were known to be 4 guys in the water - fate unknown.

How long would the USN have kept up a SAR effort before saying all hope was gone?
Assume same sea temp and air temp, wx etc as in this scenario and assume the location was similar; i.e. a long way from land-based air.

As a guess I'd say 48 hours. Much the same as here. Sad but true.
As that CV would have multiple helicopters and trained crews for going into the water available to check things out (and likely a few helicopters on escorting destroyers etc) ... not quite the same situation.

The CV has a lot of air assets available to cover the datum with a good coverage factor and revisit time as desired.

The point on hypothermia/exposure I expect is where the two scenarios match up.

[Party Animal]

And as others have said, treading water in a pair of speedos in those conditions is one thing. Out of the water in an air pocket of an upturned hull is another (i.e, Bullimore) or even in an MS10 lifereaft in an immersion suit.

Lots of questions to be asked on this one. Factoring in time late for start of search, weather conditions, sea state and water movement etc, are the USCG 100% certain that they would not have missed a liferaft between troughs in the area size looked at?

As for the comment:


Defence secretary Philip Hammond said there was nothing for British authorities to do in the case of the missing British crew of the Cheeki Rafiki yacht lost since last Friday. "This is in the United States, Canadian air sea rescue area, they are the responsible authority and they have searched it very extensively. The conclusion that they have reached is that there is no hope of rescuing these people now," he said.


If he's saying it has nothing to do with the UK because it happened in a US/CAN SAR region, then why did the UK throw assets into the Malaysian airline search!!!

One wonders if the same message would have been pushed out had the UK had a capable long-range fixed wing SAR platform. Or would Cameroon be crowing about how we would re-start the search off our own backs?

Good news though, that the USCG is going to continue.

[500N]

"private yachts from around the world are set to descend on the last known location of the 40ft Cheeki Rafiki"

That's good.

Flotilla heading from Antigua !

[GalleyTeapot]

Reminds me of this (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/missing-yacht-bodies-found-in-north-sea-710986.html) sad story, we spent a week looking for this missing yacht before the search was called off. No such thing as on line petitions then so the friends and colleagues of these folk clogged up the phone lines of the ARCC etc demanding the search was continued, which it was but without success.

[500N]

Galley

That would have been hard.

Did any reason come out for the break up and / or not being able
to get in a life boat ?

[Wander00]

Was that yacht not thought to have been run down by a commercial ship

[RHKAAF]

Glad that the search has been resumed, albeit after a two day break. Hope they find the crew safe and sound in the liferaft
Whatever the outcome I think it was not the coastguard's finest hour.

[500N]

Wander

Yes, that is logical considering where they were. A very busy shipping location.

[500N]

Anyone in the US watching the news that can report what they are saying as to why it was shutdown ?

[500N]

Interesting bit here.

"The spokesman added: "They have assured us that they did everything they could, and would have done exactly the same for US citizens

"This included an air search of over 20 sorties, involving three different aircraft, conducted for twice as long as their standard procedures required, in very difficult and challenging weather conditions."

[NutLoose]

Remember this guy, watched the film about him, they did tests on him at a Royal Navy facility in a freezing water tank against SBS guys etc and he was the last man swimming

Icelandic Seaman Survived After 6 Hours in Ice-Cold Water (http://www.vikingrune.com/2009/03/true-viking-grit/)

[RAFEngO74to09]

500N,


Almost nothing on the news - found this though:


Search called off for 4 Britons on 40-foot yacht missing in mid-Atlantic | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/19/search-ends-for-four-britons-on-40-foot-yacht-missing-in-mid-atlantic/)

[Trim Stab]

Remember this guy, watched the film about him, they did tests on him at a Royal Navy facility in a freezing water tank against SBS guys etc and he was the last man swimming

Icelandic Seaman Survived After 6 Hours in Ice-Cold Water

Or try reading about some of Lewis Pugh's exploits:

Lewis Pugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Pugh)



Pugh training in Antarctica in 2005
After 2003 Pugh focused on pioneering swims in the coldest and most hostile waters of the world. All of them were undertaken in accordance with Channel Swimming Association rules, in just a pair of Speedo swimming trunks, cap and goggles. He became the first person to swim around the infamous North Cape, the northernmost point in Europe. The following year he became the first person to swim down the entire length of Sognefjord in Norway, a 204 km (127 mi) swim which took him 21 days to complete.

In 2005 he broke the world record for the farthest-north long-distance swim by undertaking a 1 km (0.62 mi) swim at 80° North around Verlegenhuken, the northern-most cape in Spitsbergen. He followed that five months later by breaking Lynne Cox's world record for the farthest-south long-distance swim by undertaking a 1 km (0.62 mi) swim at 65° South at Petermann Island off the Antarctic Peninsula.

In 2006 Pugh challenged Russia's top cold water swimmers to a 500 metre race at the World Winter Swimming Championships in Finland. He easily won the gold medal, beating Russian Champion Alexander Brylin by over 100 metres and the bronze medalist Nefatov Vladimir by 125 metres.

[500N]

How can Bullimore survive days, over 5 in the water near Antarctica and the French yachtsman a good few days in a raft yet the USCG say that these 4 could only have lasted 20 hours in far warmer water ?????

[Wander00]

500N - I remember the incident, but surprisingly no report on the MAIB web site of an Inquiry

[Jet In Vitro]

BBC News - Search under way for fishing boat overdue at Gourdon (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-27484511)


Another SAR Op.

Let's hope for good news.

[El Grifo]

A page being run by family and friends lest we forget they are real people with real lives.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cheekirafikicrewsearch/647192948692872/?notif_t=group_comment_reply

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Re the UK sending an aircraft, the thing is, isn't that why you have SAR areas ?

Well, no poo Poirot; exactly. Do you want to explain that to the LAA?


And correct me if I am wrong but isn't it a boat that is required, not an aircraft ?

What a remarkably good point; but you need a rather large number of hulls in the water to sweep that area. Remind me, would any one of 19 already committed RN DD/FFs be ready at the drop of a hat?

Correct me if I'm wrong but, in my limited fish head experience, success is more likely if you identify a likely contact from the air to be investigated by a ship than by doing it just with a ship.

The point I was forlornly trying to make is that we don't now have the capability irrespective of who's bloody SAR area it is.

[500N]

GBZ

My apologize.

Understand where you are coming from.

[TEEEJ]

Sky News in the UK is reporting that an RAF C-130 is currently en-route to help with the search.

[Onceapilot]

Still can't understand how the container ship did not stay with that hull until suitable SAR boat on scene. :oh:

OAP

[Jimlad1]

Sadly the nearest ship was probably a weeks sail away. Keeping a very large merchantman running racetracks around a tiny hull which it had no power to support is fairly difficult. Thats without considering the reality that the ships owners would have a tight schedule to keep to, and would want her back on track as quickly as possible.

I don't doubt had they seen signs of life then they'd have tried something to help people, but at this point sitting around for a week in bad weather just to keep track of the hull was probably unrealistic - particularly as the crew are (in my personal opinion) very likely to have been long dead.

[Hangarshuffle]

Someone here is saying Sky News are sending an RAF Hercules to aid the search. Would that not be a lash up as a type of A/C to send? It stinks.
The RAF should spin this story as hard as they dare, showing what the scrapping of Nimrod has resulted in.
Politicians do, military need to as well.
This is all turning out to be a very sad saga in many ways.

[GalleyTeapot]

Sky news rerported a RAF Hercules had taken off to "help" in the search but showed video of a C17 landing!

[Sandy Parts]

they are all just 'planes' to 95% of journos - lucky they used stock image of an RAF C17 (assuming it was an RAF one...)?

[fincastle84]

I wish the Herc guys & gals the greatest success in their search.

I still believe that the Mk 4 Nimrod would have been a more useful, dedicated search platform. I'm sure this time even the Old Fat One won't disagree.:rolleyes:

[Sandy Parts]

I agree - good luck to the herc guys and gals. Sad situation but I expect Carlos in the Azores will be glad of the chance to host some RAF once again. I'm guessing the C130 will be staging from there each day?

[Onceapilot]

Was there really NO suitable surface asset (inc Naval?) within say, 2 days sailing? If not, is the provision of SAR in the Atlantic below par for the quantity of air and sea traffic considering that the support of passing freight ships was counted on in plans for rescue in that area. How many merchant vessels are unable to deploy and recover a rescue boat at sea? How do they manage "man overboard"?

OAP

[Cabe LeCutter]

I think that you will find that most merchant vessels struggle to recover someone from the water because of a very high freeboard. They are not generally equiped to launch a boat and recover it. If someone goes overboard in my area, they always ask for assistance for recovery.
Look at most vessels these days and they are equipped with lifeboats on slides, not much chance of getting that back on board easily; or liferafts.

Heads down, look out for the flak.

[Out Of Trim]

There is usually an RN Frigate on a drug running interception patrol in the Caribbean. Surely, that could be diverted to help in the search also!

[late-joiner]

I think that you will find that most merchant vessels struggle to recover someone from the water because of a very high freeboard. They are not generally equiped to launch a boat and recover it. If someone goes overboard in my area, they always ask for assistance for recovery.
Look at most vessels these days and they are equipped with lifeboats on slides, not much chance of getting that back on board easily; or liferafts.

Heads down, look out for the flak.

Under SOLAS requirements, large cargo ships are not only required to have enough lifeboats or liferafts for all the passengers and crew, but they must also have a rescue boat which meets particular launching and recovery requirements. The rescue boat requirement can be met by a suitably equipped lifeboat provided it can be recovered, but is typically met by something like a rigid inflatable.

[rh200]

Still can't understand how the container ship did not stay with that hull until suitable SAR boat on scene.

yea same here, wasn't there a Large ship in the current MH370 search which hung around for a while off Western Australia until relieved.

[VX275]

The Herc a lash up search aircraft?
Why do you think the J model was delivered with a large square window in the para doors and an observers seat mounted on those doors.
Mk1 eyeball SAR was designed into the Herc 4/5 at the outset.

[FODPlod]

There is usually an RN Frigate on a drug running interception patrol in the Caribean. Surely, that could be diverted to help in the search also!

RFA Wave Knight returned to the UK on 25 April after a 15-month Atlantic Patrol Task (North) deployment in the Caribbean having been joined by HMS Lancaster May to Dec 2013 straddling the hurricane season.

Owing to...


Refits and other maintenance periods
Post-deployment recovery time (last year was particularly busy)
Exercises and training commitments (JOINT WARRIOR, PERISHER courses, PWO firings, etc.)
D-Day 70 commemorations and similar
RFTG (Response Force Task Group) preps for its COUGAR 14 deployment
FRE (Fleet Ready Escort) rqmts
Current blue water deployments in the South Atlantic, Persian Gulf, Gulf of Aden (EU NAVFOR's ATALANTA), patrols off Somalia, etc.

...I suspect none of the RN's 19 DD/FF has been available to sail for the western Atlantic in the interim.

[Madbob]

VX275 _ I think that the point made was that in addition to the Mk1 eyeball a SAR aircraft would also have a surface search radar, FLIR, and other search aids.

The C-130J that the USCG uses is a very different bird to the RAF's C4/C5 which is pretty basic as a SAR platform. The only plus it has is the ability to receive fuel in flight which is something I am not sure if the USCG Hercs can manage.

Still, it is better than nothing and the more Mk 1 eyeballs on task the better. Maybe our ones will carry some SBS types and a Zodiac/Gemini able to be dropped into the sea and to search the hull and picked up by a surface ship (or even a submarine!) later?

MB

[Onceapilot]

Good info, just shows the paucity of capability IMO.:sad:

OAP

[Strato Q]

The Herc a lash up search aircraft?
Why do you think the J model was delivered with a large square window in the para doors and an observers seat mounted on those doors.
Mk1 eyeball SAR was designed into the Herc 4/5 at the outset.

Its a lash up if the crew are not trained and experienced in SAR ops. Searching vaste expanses of water requires trained observers as well as the flight deck. How much experience do the crew have at dropping survival equipment to a floating target? I've done it for real in high seas and it is not easy and takes alot of dedicated practice (D807).

Good luck to the C-130 crew, but again this exposes the UK's capability gap since the demise of the Nimrod MR2/MRA4.

[Tourist]

I honestly can't believe that so much money is being wasted on this search. Flying a Herc into someone else's search area to join their search whilst nobody with any realistic knowledge expects to find survivors?
Madness.
This is political weakness in the face of public opinion.

Sailors know the risks.

If NICE were in charge of rescue cost benefit analysis as well as medical treatment cost benefit analysis you would be able to hear them laughing in disbelief.

[Hangarshuffle]

Tourist, I get a sense that the UK Govt. is in a bit of a spot, and has to be seen to be doing something. And has to show a degree of responsibility towards these poor lost people.
Everyone on here knows this isn't the proper response- sending a RAF Hercules - I've just been looking at the pictures of one on the google images - doesn't look like an adequate aircraft at all for the task. Where are the bubble type observation windows, all the other things someone mentioned above?


And it doesn't look good at all really- what would heave been the UK response if God forbid, something like a large UK airliner had to put down mid Atlantic?


Much political capital could be made by many people over this event- by military and political leaders but they seem not to be rising to the bait, cant think why, other than some sort of mutual protection.


Public are gradually twigging how far gone everything is, I think. I hope they are anyway.


* Ask yourself, how would feel, what would you feel if you'd made it into the liferaft and given yourself a last fighting chance, but no one came for you? Or everyone just gave up.

[Lonewolf_50]

* Ask yourself, how would feel, what would you feel if you'd made it into the liferaft and given yourself a last fighting chance, but no one came for you? Or everyone just gave up. You probably wouldn't know if they had stopped, or had given up, but one would surely feel very alone in that big, powerful ocean.

I find it a bit strange to see the RAF/Brit government being given the Mickey over this. As noted early on, the SAR area is the one the US usually has coverage of, and the Canadians pitched in to help. It seems that the vessel itself was found, but what could not be done was a hands on exam of the vessel to confirm four sailors trapped within/underneath, or not. From reports in the public domain, at least two emergency beacons went off for a period of time. The crew knew they were in a fix, and at least two of them turned the beacons on. Even with the beacons off, and in what looks to have been dismal weather, the search continued after the beacons ran out of juice. It was then called off. (As much has been written on that decision, will not comment further).

What is it that a Nimrod could have done that wasn't already by the folks involved? Nimrods (and Hercs) on't hover, so they could not have deployed a team of swimmers/salvage hands to take a look at the vessel and determine one possible fate of the crew. What a Nimrod could do, I suppose, is keep looking for a raft, or other evidence of something, in the open ocean. Hadn't that capability already been covered by the nation who owns that area anyway? :confused:

[fincastle84]

BBC News are now showing (14.45 hrs LMT) the Nimrod Mk 4s after they were chopped up. My tears are flowing in gallons.:{

[500N]

Lone, Hangar.

I looked up Tony Bullimore yesterday and came across a very interesting video / audio of his situation and how he felt. Very interesting and worth a look / listen.

[fincastle84]

What is it that a Nimrod could have done that wasn't already by the folks involved?

The Nimrod was an excellent visual platform for searching. It had 2 dedicated look out positions with bubble windows to provide 180 deg. visibility per side. It also had air to air refuelling so would have been able to extend it's time on task beyond the 3-4 hours achievable by the C-130 or the CP-140 Aurora. As everyone knows, the first hours of any SAR mission are the most critical.

I try not to be too pessimistic but after all of this time I'm not confident that any survivors will be found alive. Let's hope I'm wrong.

[Lonewolf_50]

It also had air to air refuelling so would have been able to extend it's time on task beyond the 3-4 hours achievable by the C-130 or the CP-140 Aurora. As everyone knows, the first hours of any SAR mission are the most critical.
Thanks fin.
I got a chance to ride once in Nimrod, early 80's. My seat was next to one of those bubble windows. It does indeed give a good view. :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

I see that the US Coastguard use a version of the C130. As these are coastguard aircraft are they better equipped for this work than the Herc we have sent? This is just a straight, unloaded question, as I have no knowledge of these types of ops

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Government is not "in a spot" over this. It has the expert opinion of the USCG, backed by the UK Coastguard, that all practical efforts have been made.
I can find no excuse other than electioneering.

Let's face it, the average parent/spouse is going to want every penny possible spending on this; who wouldn't? But it's the Government's job to think of all the people who will need rescuing next year.

Every penny spent on this from now on is money that won't get spent on the next rescue. Will the RAF's budget get increased next year to pay for this Herc? You know the answer to that. The only difference is that the cuts will come in places where people will subsequently die in less media-obvious places.

Or are people suggesting that these two coastguards are incompetent?

[Bannock]

Oh Dear,

RAF forced to use binoculars to search for British sailors after patrol planes scrapped - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10846749/RAF-forced-to-use-binoculars-to-search-for-British-sailors-after-patrol-planes-scrapped.html)

[late-joiner]

What happened to the Cheeki Rafiki thread in Jet Blast?

[Wrathmonk]

and has to be seen to be doing something

Wonder where it will actually stop.....holiday season is upon us. Won't be long before news of a pi55ed up holiday maker falling off a balcony and requiring casevac to UK. Of course they won't of bothered with insurance - that's what the EHIC is for. Cue the Farcebook campaign etc etc

[Lonewolf_50]

TTN, the C-130J's that the USCG got are configured for their mission, which includes maritime surveillance. It looks like they got a mission equipment upgrade to fit that mission requirement after initial purchase.


The USCG has six HC-130Js in service ... initially operated in a logistic support role until they received significant modifications, including

installations of a large window on each side of the fuselage to allow crew members to visually scan the sea surface,
the addition of an inverse synthetic aperture sea search radar,
flare tubes,
a forward-looking infrared/electro-optical sensor,
a gaseous oxygen system for the crew and an enhanced communications suite.

[fincastle84]

As these are coastguard aircraft are they better equipped for this work than the Herc we have sent?

The CG Herc has a dedicated surface search radar as opposed to the RAF Herc's cloud & clonk. It also has an IR turret although I believe that some of our SF Herc's also have IR.

However, I'm not sure just how useful will be a good radar in such a search & the IR isn't going to do much either. The main sensor is the Mk 1 eyeball I'm afraid.

Oops, Lonewolf beat me to it!!

[Top Bunk Tester]

Without going into the rights or wrongs of continuing the search (I come down in favour of continuing. BTW) a few thoughts have struck me with regard to our capability holiday, not now known as a gap, more like the Grand Canyon.

Although never procured as an SAR platform, a little forethought could have reaped major benefits. The J has no external tanks or fittings for internal (Fuselage) tanks, this must severely limit the time on task.

"No problem!" I hear you cry "The J is Air to Air Refuelable". Unfortunately this is only a good call if we actually had a serviceable tanker aircraft with a working, cleared centre line hose :ugh::ugh::ugh: Maybe a suitable a/c could be found at Brunty or Kemble.

I don't know how many observers were dispatched with the J but I would assume they will be sitting in the para door seats with the doors open. This is VERY tiring and 30 minute stints will be the max endurable.

Has the J been equipped with ASRA or Sub Smash, pretty bloody pointless if it hasn't. Have any crew been trained in the use of the above?

All in all a total FUBAR from start to finish and I refer back to post #1 in this thread.

I speak as having completed a 15 hour long range SAR in the SA in a K.

I can only hope the the crew of the yacht survive, despite these efforts and that the J crew do not come back overly disheartened. :\

BTW What would we have done if the incident occurred JUST inside our SAR area of responsibility and the onus had been on us?

[dagenham]

If nice did cost effectiveness on the military we would solely be nuclear... Low cost big for the impact....

[Onceapilot]

Quote TBT " Maybe a suitable a/c could be found at Brunty or Kemble."

You are correct Top Bunk. All wasted now. :ugh:

OAP

[Effluent Man]

Does anybody know why posts have been deleted from this thread?The whole thread has disappeared from Jet Blast.

[NutLoose]

Whenever they say we are sending an aircraft to do this and do that, to look for sailors or schoolies etc, why do I keep thinking of the scene from the longest day where the two Germans are ordered to attack the invasion and he says that was the Luftwaffe's finest hour... We seem to be heading that way ourselves


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF67YdzowO4&sns=em


Do you think anyone in Westminster is feeling guilty about chucking our MPA capability away

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Embarrassed maybe; I'm not sure they are capable of guilt.

[Jet In Vitro]

MP Gerald Howarth was just on the BBC news and stated that whilst the Hercules would do the best it could, the UK desperately needs an MPA that could do the job properly.

Nuf said.

[Cows getting bigger]

One presumes that Boeing will have a P8 at Farnborough in a few weeks, together with some rather convincing lobbyists.

I know little about the maritime and/or SAR arena (one trip in a Nimrod in 1985 where the crew found a Russian sub - Tango Class?). But even the most hard nosed individual cannot deny it is somewhat bizarre that the best the UK can do is an enthusiastically crewed C130. :(

[Onceapilot]

Correct 'Vitro, and a Tanker, and ship borne STOVL, and ships, and technicians etc, etc.
Spoke to this person when he was a cog, made no difference apparently.;)
Usual story, bleat after leaving the job. No friend of UKMil in my opinion.

OAP

[Tankertrashnav]

Lonewolf and Fincastle - thanks for the answers guys :ok:

[Lonewolf_50]

Fox3 demonstrates that a picture can tell a story (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/540227-missing-yacht-missingthread.html#post8487393).

[500N]

A clever picture.

The stern holes / hatches / cut outs are much closer to the water.

[Cabe LeCutter]

late-joiner,

I know what the SOLAS rules are, unfortunately IMO keep changing their minds on the practicality of some of these rules. Read about some of the changes here:uhoh:
Fast Rescue Boats (http://heiwaco.tripod.com/fastrescueboats.htm)

The US Coastguard operate ships, FW and rotary. I suggest that they have got a far better idea of how to operate in this region than any of the armchair experts:E

The search area is expanding far more rapidly than we will be able to effectively cover, note that I said effectively. The hull of the yacht is the best datum and it is sad that the cargo vessel did not stay until a more capable unit arrived. The hardest job of a search coordinator is to decide that it is time to call a halt, under the circumstances, with only the information from the media, who are we to question his decision?

Heads down, look out for the flak

[West Coast]

I think you'll find the armchair experts on the thread will dismiss pretty much anything they don't want to hear.

Good post however.

[Wander00]

CLC - you are correct, but I suspect not "right". Hope there is a successful conclusion, but sadly with time it become less likely

[Party Animal]

BTW What would we have done if the incident occurred JUST inside our SAR area of responsibility and the onus had been on us?


The UK would have followed the mitigation plan for the removal of Nimrod.

That is, plead with the US, France and Canada to do the job for us, with their respective MPA forces.

We would also expect them to pay for the whole thing from their own funding lines too.

[MFC_Fly]

No, and we never did "carry out searches for people around the world". We carried out SAR within our area of responsibility. If we deployed for SAR it was either to support a fast jet deployment or to cover the overseas flights of Her Majesty.

It has become fashionable to lament the passing of our MPA by ex kipper mates suggesting/implying that we would have got involved with every high profile SAR effort, all over the globe.

We never did this and we would not be doing it now even if we still had an MPA. If we got involved with some random search for some random yacht/ship/aircraft outwith our area it was because we happened to be carrying out ops in that neck of the woods already. Not because we were sent there to do it. As I've posted before, despite the PR value, SAR is not a significant factor when it comes to deciding military priorities.
Not strictly true...

I have been involved in at least 5 SAR incidents outside (sometimes by 1000's of miles) of the UK SAR AOR. Three times because we just happened to be flying in the approximate area (one incident after actually hearing the Mayday on Ch16), once because we were in the country and we were asked (in the middle of the night) if we could get airborne and assist, which we did after gaining the appropriate authority) and once (several sorties over several days) when we were asked to redeploy whilst operating in the Indian Ocean because those coordinating the search again knew of the strengths of the Nimrod and requested our assistance.

[Bannock]

An interesting and relevant story here about the dangers of calling off a search early.
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.

Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/missing-fishermen-found-safe-sea-3586062)

One quote jumps out.

"It proves the point about never giving up hope"

[Wander00]

Lucky guys and a brilliant result

[hanfimar]

An interesting and relevant story here about the dangers of calling off a search early.
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.

Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record

One quote jumps out.

"It proves the point about never giving up hope"


It also illustrates, yet again, our sad lack of MPA. MRA4 would have tied down this datum within a couple of hours on day 1 of the search.

And this is perhaps, the least important role of MPA.

8 x P8s and soon, please.

[Wrathmonk]

no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment

However lucky they may have been, for people who I am led to believe are 'professional' fisherman, the above (assuming it is true) is irresponsible and foolhardy. Darwins Law seems to have been foiled this time.....

[YellaRednGrey]

As a former ARCC Controller (Duty Manager in today's PC times:rolleyes:) I used to ask the relevant MCA MRCC for a SARIS plot so I could brief the Nimrod and/or SAR hel crews when dealing with a protracted maritme search. SARIS, or probably SARIS 3 or 4 by now, uses various parameters: LKP, course, surface wind, tide data, sea state, type of vessel etc to determine a Search Datum and Search Area. It can also suggest search height and speed to fly for the crews. Clearly, the search area expands with time so it would be very interesting to learn how large the search area has grown by now. MRCC Falmouth has responsibility for long-range SAR within the UKSRR and often provides assistance to vessels on a global basis, particularly when a UK registered distress beacon is detected. Their professional staffs will no doubt have been liaising fairly closely with their US counterparts in this incident. I believe that the USCG has a similar system and they would have used the search data as evidence when considering their initial decision to call a halt to their efforts, never an easy decision but someone has to make it.

My gut feeling is that teams of trained professionals have been cajoled into re-starting the search by the US and/or UK Government(s) following the groundswell of uninformed public opinion. I have been involved in many searches for swimmers and people in life-rafts in much smaller search areas over the years and, sadly, they rarely have a good outcome. Whilst it is admirable that the friends and families of the missing sailors are keeping their spirits up with their kitchen table efforts, I do hope someone has had the sense to paint them a more credible picture so that they can prepare themselves for the inevitable bad news.

I do hope I'm proved wrong but I truly believe I won't be; my thoughts are with the families at this tragic time. :(

[El Grifo]

My gut feeling is that teams of trained professionals have been cajoled into re-starting the search by the US and/or UK Government(s) following the groundswell of uninformed public opinion. I have been involved in many searches for swimmers and people in life-rafts in much smaller search areas over the years and, sadly, they rarely have a good outcome. Whilst it is admirable that the friends and families of the missing sailors are keeping their spirits up with their kitchen table efforts, I do hope someone has had the sense to paint them a more credible picture so that they can prepare themselves for the inevitable bad news.

Nail hit squarely on the head !

The watchword for the families however is "closure"

El G.

[Willard Whyte]

I'm surprised they haven't sent a Sentinel...

[Hangarshuffle]

The two missing Scottish fishers story is reading like a comedy of errors. Although they may have made mistakes, once the fishermen realised they were in the schum, they seemed to do ok - that they are alive is testimony to that. One of them had 62 years experience on the sea, hardly a novice. Boat looked ok for what it was for - inshore work.
The UKs search efforts seem pretty poor on the face of it here. Flight Deck Helmet on, but I mean at the end of the day they were off the coast of East Scotland, in an area within range of land based helicopters, offshore support vessels, blooming uncle tom cobley....still couldn't find them. I find that hard to fathom.
After all that, reads as though the Montrose lifeboat actually sank the fishing boat when it had in tow going back in.


BBC News - Missing fishermen 'survived on two biscuits' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-27514632)




http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZuSykrhHnDseuHr1bNwRgZHePOJ12yOXEO_2WP5y bD0aAH_x6




http://www.army-technology.com/projects/defender-4000/images/2-defender.jpg (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/defender-4000/defender-40002.html)




http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65518000/jpg/_65518849_zrsqg0e6.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=uk%20military%20surveillance%20aircraft&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=XXv4pHChpvVyiM&tbnid=UwlyrpV4Ab-0YM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-21200718&ei=xFZ-U-7vG5GKyQO0iYGQCA&psig=AFQjCNEaR486Y19JRN-vZVnSzqrs1_6oQQ&ust=1400875073498163)
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrGZv6aF-Ri2Scw0BhUFkWJ8bgVRxvvy_2vtoAS4fgX9X7mWAd

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If there is a way back to ever getting a UK MPA, I don't think the RAF will get it now anyway. Will be given over to another agency, watch and see, it may happen after all of this. Face saver. Some sort of enquiry and something will be lashed up again for use. Incidentally the photos...I just wanted to google and see what we still have to improvise in a search role other than the yellow seakings...and I'm talking about looking for people 50 miles off our own coast. Hardly gives me confidence.

[nimbev]

I'm surprised they haven't sent a Sentinel... I presume, WW, that your tongue is firmly in your cheek??

[Roland Pulfrew]

Will be given over to another agency, watch and see, it may happen after all of this

Oh really :rolleyes: Just what other agency would want an armed MMA/MPA? What would be the point of buying a single role LRSAR acft? What other agency could afford to buy and operate it??

[Hangarshuffle]

Maybe he is being serious about the Sentinel? If a newspaper printed pictures for the general public, about what sort of aircraft the UK currently has, bet they'd include it. They'd include all those ones I've just posted above.
If the gap is there, then someone will be tasked to fill it with what we have.
I'm surprised more ex RAF Senior Officers haven't been up making some sort of capital about the recent events, in the Atlantic and the North Sea.
This is all small stuff in the great picture, callous though that is. What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment, a potential election loser for a sitting UK Govt.
Only that sort of thing would focus a UK politicians mind, of the current generation.

[Hangarshuffle]

I mean one not dedicated for maritime warfighting. I mean a one for search of missing sailors, searching for contraband, smugglers, y know?
Seriously I think UK MCA, Coastguard, HM customs and excise- dual role sort of thing.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Why, when there is a known capability gap within the military sphere, would any other department go and buy a single role SAR/coastguard aircraft. Dept for Transport have long had responsibility for LR SAR - it is not a Military Task. However, DfT are unlikely to be able to afford their own fleet of LR SAR aircraft - even if that was to be half a dozen second hand marinised C130Js. Although...... when do the RAF start scrapping their Js?? Seriously though, the UK (Defence) has a known requirement for a MMA/MPA which could fill a large number of roles, including LR SAR from irreducible spare capacity.

[500N]

What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment,

That is an understatement !

[Willard Whyte]

I presume, WW, that your tongue is firmly in your cheek??

T'was ever thus.

Just seems as though when anything 'kicks off' we send a Sentinel. Nothing to do with its intended scrapping, oh no sir, but one imagines meetings 'on high' with its senior officer 'sponsors' all present, arm aloft, bouncing up and down in their seats, pleading "me sir, me sir, choose me sir".

[NutLoose]

Quote:
What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment,
That is an understatement !


We'll just blame the French

[AnglianAV8R]

it is interesting how we become more philosophical as the years advance. This whole sorry saga makes me wonder just what values underpin our civilisation and have we lost said values ? There is ample evidence of survival for many days in similar situations. I appreciate the difficulties of the merchant vessel being able to render any further assistance beyond their locating the upturned hull, Whilst this event has been unfolding I have clambered up and down the sides of similar vessels by rope ladder. I would not wish to do that at sea in a 20ft swell. The first (inescapable) duty of the master of the vessel is to his crew and their safety. Was a USCG vessel not immediately assigned to make best speed to the upturned hull? Its position could at least be monitored by a series of airborne SAR sorties? These threads always seem to end up with a discussion of MOD tasks versus DFT responsibilities... As a humble taxpayer I suggest that it is not unreasionable to expect a public asset to be used if there is a possibility, however remote, of a result. The achievements of the Nimrod crews over many years are respected and a source of justifiable pride to those of us who know or care about such things. This brings me to the previously mentioned letter to LAA members, one sailor is a fellow aviator. I received that email as I was working on a vessel in Europort and was annoyed at the apparent ignorance of the appellant (LAA) asking that the search be aided by an RAF patrol aircraft as good training value. I replied hastily as follows:

Royal Air Force plane to practice search techniques ?

I'm afraid not, neither did we send one to help search for the Malaysian Boeing. This is because the Royal Air Force retired its Nimrods early,before introduction of the ill fated Nimrod Mk4 ( a rebuild of earlier examples) and the government abandoned (scrapped|) the Mk4 in their 2010 defence review.

So, a planned 'capability gap' has become a 'capability chasm' with no indication of when we will recover this vital capability.

The United Kingdom, a maritime nation that depends highly on merchant shipping trade, has NO maritime patrol capability!

This is why we are reduced to begging others to help.

It looks bad for those men, but we should continue where there is hope and in particular, investigate the hull in the shortest possible timescale. Otherwise, I fear we have reached a point where we fail to be worthy of the description 'civilised'.

[Wander00]

There has been no mention in the context of the resumed search of the upturned hull. Presumably that has now sunk. Was there any triangulation of the brief EPIRB signals received last weekend?

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

The photo from the Maersk container ship suggested she had either hit or passed extremely close to the inverted yacht hull ion her path - sufficient, I am afraid, that the disturbance or imapct would likely have broken up any air cavity survivors in the hull were relying on...

[Wander00]

Strangely in the Robert Redford film "All is Lost", it is a Maersk line ship, Emma Maersk, that passes the sinking yacht without seeing it. Spooky or what.

[Hangarshuffle]

UK Sec of State for Defence Hammond was on, primarily about recent elections, but he stayed on to asked a few things about the search. Strangely, Eddie Mair asked him one of my questions above about airliners ditching on "our" side of the Atlantic. Maybe Eddie s a pruner? Answers:
(a) In that event it'll be a multinational response. RN Ships will probably be dominant. (Like recently looking for the Malaysian plane). That no one found....
(b) Eddie sort of let him off about the binoculars + RAF Herc. lash up being used to look for the missing yacht, but he did raise the point of its relevence.
(c) The USCG search will cease tomorrow, the RAF will carry a little further on the remainder of the day with its "sorties". But cease tomorrow evening (think that was right). Why so?
(d) Hammond is as slippery as any and played his cards right, and I think won this limited discussion.


And so it ends.

[Wander00]

Sadly, and with a heavy heart as the parent of youngster who qualified Ocean Yachtmaster Commercial only a year or two before this skipper, I think they have now done as much and maybe more then was reasonable. Who knows what the outcome might have been if the two days had not been lost, and the container ship had acted, or been able to act, differently.


RiP to the crew lost, and let the yachting and SAR worlds see what lessons, if any can be learned.

My heart and thoughts are with the families and friends.

[El Grifo]

As a transatlantic sailor myself, I find myself in agreement. At very least, the restart of the search gave the families comfort in the knowledge that the crew were not bobbing around the high seas in a hopless state.

RIP guys. El G.

[airpolice]

BBC now reporting the hull has been found.

[Jet In Vitro]

BBC report USCG - upturned hull found.

[NutLoose]

I just hope it gives closure one way or the other for the families, if no one is onboard then I hope they find the raft and equipment missing that may extend the search, if they find bodies then that will give the families closure.

[500N]

I like this

"The hull of the missing UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki has been found in North Atlantic ocean, the US Coast Guard has told the BBC

A spokesman said a surface swimmer had identified the name on the back of the boat, but was unable to go inside."




That would be cold !!!

[Wander00]

Good the hull found again - maybe something good will come.. fingers, toes crossed

[Tourist]

Guys, there is a lot of talk about things being different if we had an MPA and what if a liner sank mid atlantic.
What exactly do you think an MPA would bring to such an event?

If a liner is sinking then the lifeboats all have beacons. The MPA can only act as a search asset. If they are in lifeboats then they will be ok till the ships home to the beacon. If not then they will drown/die of hypothermia whether there is an MPA overhead anyway.

If it is an airliner crashing then what exactly does anyone think an MPA can do for the passengers? If they come down in one piece, then there are beacon applenty. If not, then recent events have shown just how useless state of the art MPAs can be.

Let's not get carried away about haw useful an MPA is in these circumstances.
As locator beacon tech has got better and more ubiquitous, the role of an MPA has become ever more tenuous.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Tourist, have you ever done long range SAR?

[JYKelly]

RP
Don't start him off!
Tourist
How's the sandpit?

[MATELO]

Guys, there is a lot of talk about things being different if we had an MPA and what if a liner sank mid atlantic.
What exactly do you think an MPA would bring to such an event?

The MPA can only act as a search asset.

Truly showing your ignorance there fella.

[Carbon Bootprint]

The Beeb is reporting that a US Navy warship despatched to the area has found the hull of the Cheeki Rafiki. The ship had only a surface swimmer aboard; the swimmer banged on the hull and apparently received no response.

They found the cabin of the yacht was flooded and the windows shattered. The yacht's keel was also broken, causing a breach in the hull. It wasn't clear if the life raft had been deployed.

The article leaves it unstated whether the hull will be recovered, and only said "they now expect to find the rest of the vessel soon" (whatever that means).

Full article at the BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27551917).

EDIT: Later version of story at link above says the life raft had not been deployed...

[fincastle84]

A sad conclusion. RIP.

[B Fraser]

Thanks to our American chums for extending the search. I trust we will do the same should the need arise.

[Wander00]

Thanks to the searchers - thoughts with families and friends of the crew of Cheeki Raffiki. It is a hard demanding sport

[ShotOne]

Just heard search called off as life raft confirmed still on board. Many many thanks for giving it your best to all involved in the search

[Lima Juliet]

Tourist

Let's not get carried away about how useful an MPA is in these circumstances

I couldn't agree more.

Trying to justify MPAs for search is rescue is just plain dumb...:=

However, justifying an MPA capability to hunt subs, protect the National Deterent, escort friendly naval task forces, provide over the horizon maritime ISTAR and shadowing other Navy's vessels (such as the recent visits by the Russian Udaloy or the ADMIRAL KUSNETSOV and her support vessels). Now that is a justification...:D

Sad news for families today...:(

[Navaleye]

I think we now have to accept these sailors are now lost and our thoughts should be with their families. I think that the US Coast Guard and other assets from all nations have done an extremely professional job in the search for them and I pay tribute to them.

Time to close this thread.

[500N]

Agree on all points.

[Wander00]

Agree, but if it continues should concentrate on the yacht and crew, and thanks to the searchers, civil and military, but not get emeshed in the "MPA" debate - that is for another time, another place.

[Hangarshuffle]

Yes a sad conclusion. The families of these lost sailors have my deepest sympathy.

[FODPlod]

Terribly disappointing news. The capsize must have been catastophic and almost instantaneous. Thoughts are with their families and friends.

[El Grifo]

Normally 2 guys on watch clipped on and two guys down below sleeping. Not an easy escape at night.

Any idea what the procedure is, if any, for recovering the boat and any bodies ?

El G.

[Capetonian]

Sad but predictable ending, the sea is unforgiving. There has been some speculation about the suitability of the yacht design, with its bolted on keel, for the type of sailing it was subjected to.

These guys died doing what they enjoyed. I imagine the atmosphere in Farnham today must be rather sombre, I was there yesterday and the rescue operation was a main topic of discussion.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

RIP.

Now, can we please learn the lesson of taking the Coastguards' (USCG, UK) word for it next time? This way funds can be better spent on the next person who needs rescuing.

[El Grifo]

Always assumed that fuel costs were pretty low in that part of the world Fox !

El G.

[500N]

" Any idea what the procedure is, if any, for recovering the boat and any bodies ?"


I thought they sunk boats like that ?

[Wander00]

Fox 3 - but when the search was first abandoned, the non-deployment of the liferaft was not known. Crew could still have been in an, albeit small, air pocket in the upturned hull. Had those facts been ascertained then, abandoning the search then might have been a correct decision, but not when those points remained unresolved, IMHO

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I'll agree they weren't certain. However, as I've previously stated (possibly on other forums), the Maersk photo showed that the air pocket would have been too small for the crew to be out of the water, hence they would have been dead from hypothermia even if they had air to breathe. A liferaft search turned up negative (and they searched very thoroughly). With the keel missing, they was an entirely likely scenario that the boat had capsized rapidly, and no credible alternative scenario.

[Heathrow Harry]

life raft was still thatched to the boat and not deployed - it is deployable in 15 seconds so it must have flipped over almost instantly - maybe at night, everyone tied on by safety lines ...........

very sad

[betty swallox]

RIP to the 4 sailors. Tragic.

B Fraser. How exactly would we do that??!!

[dazdaz1]

Will the hull be recovered/sunk or left to drift?

[NutLoose]

Rip guys, such a sad loss, but they went out doing what they loved.

[Hempy]

It is a sad conclusion, but I'm still wondering how any of it is relevant to any thread other than JB. This is a civil issue, SAR for MPA is, and always has been, a secondary role.

It seems this thread was opened with an agenda in mind...hey, I have no problems with agendas, but it could well have been titled "Another thread bemoaning the lack of long range maritime surveillance aircraft in the RAF".

Fair cop, too, but really how many Nimrods would have changed this situation?

[fincastle84]

Fair cop, too, but really how many Nimrods would have changed this situation?

Your hindsight is a truly wonderful thing.

[500N]

Hempy

How many "Nimrod" equivalents did it take to save the French Yachtsman ?
(and you could say helped Tony Bullimore)

5 Aircraft, 6 crews.


I am not pushing an Agenda like maybe some Ex RAF people (which is fine as I think they have a valid point) but lets say it was a RAF C-130 that went down or some other aircraft or a yacht right at the western edge of the UK's SAR area. Then what ?

[Tourist]

JY

Very nice thank you:ok:

Matelo

Since I am an ex SAR captain rotary, plus have flown as pilot of an MPA (a modern glass cockpit one, not a prehistoric nimrod) many times, I think I have a reasonable handle on what an MPA brings to the table, yes.

[late-joiner]

RIP.
Now, can we please learn the lesson of taking the Coastguards' (USCG, UK) word for it next time?

You are banging on about taking the coastguards' word for it, but at the same time as this sad scenario was playing out in the North Atlantic there was a counter example in the North Sea. The UKCG abandoned the search for 2 fishermen in an open boat after 48 hours, but they were then found by chance some hours later 46 miles offshore by a transiting fishing vessel. The fishing vessel took the crew on board and towed their boat inshore. They then handed them over and the life boat carried on towing the boat but managed to sink it!

Keels break away from yachts pretty regularly sadly. But the events have mostly proven survivable. Until they knew the liferaft had not been deployed there was a chance.

[500N]

"Until they knew the liferaft had not been deployed there was a chance."

That's the way I see it as well.

And once the life raft was found, fine, call of the search but isn't a life raft
designed to keep people alive once abandoning ship until rescued - or found ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Thanks for bringing up the other case L-J, as I think it reinforces the point I'm trying to make. The coastguard were searching, based on their extensive experience,in the areas most likely to effect a rescue. Despite the search conditions, they continued until they were certain the boat was not in that area, and the eventual rescue proved them correct.
The argument I am making is that beyond a certain point, further attempts at rescue become uneconomic, based on the cost to rescue the next unfortunate. There's no point spending all your budget on a few rescues if you then have to sit on shore watching others drown because you've no money left. That would certainly apply if the search for every small boat was extended up to 46 miles offshore.

Looking at the story, there is so much wrong with what the fishermen did navigationally. Professional fishermen?No
Lost fishermen got by on biscuits - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/offbeat/lost-fishermen-got-by-on-biscuits-30295525.html)

[500N]

Fox3

Well it seems the you and maybe the US and Canada have a different view of costs of SAR than Aus.

On numerous occasions when the cost of SAR has been brought up over here in Aus the Aust Gov't has just said they take the SAR bit very seriously and that is that.

if cost was an issue, then Australia would not have rescued - or tried to - numerous people.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Your point is valid 500N, but does not weaken my argument. It depends what budget level a nation is happy with, and how they react to overspends. Both the US and UK Governments have historically not increased the SAR budget if they overspend going after the expensive rescues.
In general, the Canadian Government is like the Australian one. It goes on for longer, and absorbs the extra costs. A friend of mine used to be i/c SAR for Atlantic Canada, so I'm sure of this. Rescues here normally involve a lot of local help. The SAR guys and local volunteers generally stop at the same time, when hope is lost. That said, there are still some cases where people turn up days after the search stopped.

[500N]

Yes, each country has to do it's own thing.

I think Australia (Gov't) is just resigned to the fact we have a huge area and it's a case of just do it. Plus we at least have a Defence Dept that is capable of doing it (and beats picking up dead beat Asylum seekers :rolleyes: :O)

I still think they should have found and checked the hull before stopping the search (and found the life raft), then I don't think anyone would have complained but hey, it's over now.

[Loerie]

Absolutey,100% correct in yr post,....if only it had been possible to see,at that first sughting by the Maersk vsl,whether the raft was still aboard....anyhow,God Bless and thanks to all the Nations that have helped with the search after the original sighting....awesome----and it shows that money is secondary,as it should be....

[RileyDove]

The news said that the hull had been tagged so it could be tracked but that the Coastguard would not take part in a recovery. It would be interesting to know if they plan a salvage or will just wait till it drifts sufficiently close to a shoreline for it to be brought ashore.

[Trim Stab]

The news said that the hull had been tagged so it could be tracked but that the Coastguard would not take part in a recovery. It would be interesting to know if they plan a salvage or will just wait till it drifts sufficiently close to a shoreline for it to be brought ashore.

The coastguard don't get involved in salvage. They just ensure that the wreck is not a danger to other vessels - hence the report that they "tagged" it - but what with? An AIS? Or a small GPS transmitter? Neither are ideal as the hull could still be a danger to other small vessels which are not necessarily equipped with AIS receivers or Navtex (which would be needed to know the position of the hazard if GPS tagged). I'd have thought the better option would be to take a lot of photos for the MAIB, then try to sink it. Perhaps they decided that it would be too difficult to sink, since without the keel on it the hull will be buoyant even entirely full of water.

The damage to the hull as shown in the USN photo on the BBC site is perplexing. The hull appears to have delaminated extensively on the starboard side, and there is a small dark patch in the middle which could even be a hole. In a collision severe enough to cause that much damage, the crew would have known about it instantly, and would have reported it in one of their earlier satellite calls - but it was reported that they were taking on water but were not sure from where.

The keels on Bendytoys are bare cast-iron (or optionally lead on some of the Firsts - including probably on Rafiki) and are not laminated to the hull - so the keel would not likely have torn away as strip of keel with it. Possibly a chunk of GRP remained stubbornly bolted to the keel as it fell away, and this tore away a layer of laminate with it. But GRP does not normally fail like that, and the damage looks like abrasion damage, rather than tearing.

You can also see from the photo some rust stains around some of the remaining keel bolt which is not at all healthy. The heads of the bolts which are swilled with water in the bilges are usually a horrible rusty mess on most boats of similar construction and design, but if the bolts are drawn, the threads should be dry and rust-free. There appears to be signs of long-term corrosion on those threads. You can also see from that photo how few bolts are used to attach keels on the Bendytoys due to the narrowness of the keel head - though having said that they don't have a reputation for losing keels.

The only scenario that I can dream up that matches the storyline is that the keel started to work loose causing the slow and (to the crew) perplexing water ingress, then the keel fell away leading to a rapid capsize, and then the upturned hull was later run down by another vessel.

I think that a more experience crew would have survived this. If a boat of that construction (GRP, external bolted ballasted keel) has a leak, once all the usual and easily traceable possibilities are eliminated, you have to assume you have a keel problem. Then it is everybody on deck in lifejackets, boat trimmed to reduce keel pressure to a minimum (turn downwind, sail reduced to a minimum to make-way, or even lie a-hull), and liferaft readied for immediate launch (not buried in a locker which is the norm for regatta boats). It is actually possible to sail downwind in a beamy boat like that without a keel - Mike Golding once famously completed the Vendee Globe after his keel fell off a couple of hundred miles from the finish line. If the capsize does come, it will be slow enough to have a decent chance of launching the lifeboat and getting into it. It appears in this case that they didn't realise they had a keel problem and were diverting to Azores possibly under full sail and beating into an unfavourable wind.

[El Grifo]

The only scenario that I can dream up that matches the storyline is that the keel started to work loose causing the slow and (to the crew) perplexing water ingress, then the keel fell away leading to a rapid capsize, and then the upturned hull was later run down by another vessel.

I have been thinking overnight about the reported "broken cabin windows"

Your rundown idea might explain that.

El G.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Having experienced a knockdown, and weather as they experienced, objects flying around the cabin during the capsize could explain the broken windows. I nearly got a knife in the head once.

I agree with Trim Stab's excellent analysis. The liferaft has to be ready to go immediately even if there's a capsize, But the vast majority of yachties do not place it so, mainly because the support frames would hamper racing sail changes (and this boat was used for race training), and putting it in the cockpit means you are tripping over it the whole time. With no impact experienced, leaks are likely either through-hull ports or the keel. It's quite possible the young skipper had never been on any 'old' boats, so wouldn't be that experienced with leaks.

[onetrack]

Broken cabin windows can also be the result of a hit by a massive wave that breaks over the cabin.

[El Grifo]

To be honest, I have experienced both in the Atlantic in a Jeanneau 42, but never had any damage to windows. Not saying it is not possible.

Without doubt, a rogue wave could quite possibly take out some windows and cause an already weakened keel to detach.

The de-lamination, of the hull is a bit odd.

El G

[RHKAAF]

Maritime search and rescue aircraft can also drop liferafts ,food and water and other supplies as well as home in any surface craft such as ships/yachts which do not have homing equipment. Why else do you think we have such aircraft in the first place.?

[Mechta]

The de-lamination, of the hull is a bit odd.

If the keel was working loose due to fatigue failure of, or pulling through, of the bolts at the fore and aft, when they failed the load would have been transferred to the inner bolts. Assuming the movement had disintegrated the lamination closest to the bolt head & washer, the bolt would pull through this and then come up against the intact outer lamination(s), which then tore away with the bolts.

Having read a few Beneteau owner's websites over the last couple of days, it appears that the keel is purposely not attached to major structure (stiffening ribs), so that in the event of running aground the keel can tear away with the minimum of damage to the boat as a whole. Checking, retightening and replacement of keel bolts on Beneteaus is supposed to be a regular inspection and maintenance task.

Beneteau First 235 - O Beneteau Keel Bolts you scare me (http://www.beneteau235.com/keel_bolts.htm)

If there were washers under the heads of the bolts which corroded and disintegrated away, this could allow the first few millimetres of movement to start a slide hammer action to fatigue the bolts and break up the hull.

[Boudreaux Bob]

When I think of Ocean Crossing Sailboats....Benneteu's are not on my list.

Bolt on Keels are far less capable than solid Keels.

Boats like the Benneteu, Hunter, and others of similar construction are called "Clorox Bottles" for good reason.

One can argue however you want.....but if you go to sea and encounter rough water you want a boat that is built to handle those kinds of conditions.

If the Keel parted from the boat it would have capsized almost instantaneously making escape and survival very unlikely.

That is the nature of open water sailing.....bad things sometimes happen even to the most experienced and capable of Sailors.

But...that is why it is such and adventerous endeavor.

Everyone that undertakes such voyages accept those risks.

Yet, it is so tragic when it happens and good folks are lost.

[Trim Stab]

Assuming the movement had disintegrated the lamination closest to the bolt head & washer, the bolt would pull through this and then come up against the intact outer lamination(s), which then tore away with the bolts.

Your explanation is plausible, but does not convincingly explain the shape and nature of the hull damage. It is not often that GRP delaminates in large strips like that. Usually it breaks in chunks. If the keel had ripped out a section of the hull and torn out a layer of laminate I would expect to see a visible hole where the keel bolts were. If you look carefully at the antifouling it appears to be abraded, also not consistent with delimitation. There is also some damage to the anti-foul on the port side of the keel, which would not appear to be consistent with delamination And finally what is that dark spot in the middle of the damage? It looks like the hull is holed.

It is shame the USN have not released some more detailed pictures publicly as the resolution on that photo is not really high enough to be absolutely sure. But to me it looks like it has taken a heavy clout rather than just delaminated.

[alfred_the_great]

Whale, shipping container, bloody big wave at the wrong angle - all enough to cause damage like that.

The first and last on that list have damaged pusser's greys (upto and including CVS) I've been in. So far, so lucky with shipping containers.

[500N]

We have Sun fish down here in Aus that seem to be a PITA for Yachties.

You quite often hear of yachts in the Sydney to Hobart hitting them,
big brutes of things.

[El Grifo]

"Heavy Clout" Sounds not to far away !

El G.

[ShotOne]

Trimstab, while you seem to know a lot about yacht construction, this doesn't in any way qualify you to make those assertions about the crew .."a more experienced crew would have survived this". Sure, if they'd known the keel was about to fail they could have headed downwind (away from the Azores, with a leak) , crew on deck (for days, in a major storm?) But there's no evidence they had any reason to suspect the keel was the source of their leak, or about to fail. Yes a boat can sometimes be sailed without a keel but to suddenly lose one in a storm is almost certain to result in instant capsize whatever the crew experience.