Highest paying airlines for pilots?...

[TODA.1]

As above.
Distinguish between long & short haul

[MCDU2]

Highest net pay or highest gross? Big difference between the two. Just checked my last fortnights payslip and a fraction under 50% is going to the Irish Revenue/German bond holders.

[TODA.1]

For sake of international comparisons we could go Gross

[Pittslover]

My guess qantas since the Australian dollar is pretty strong.

[redsnail]

The Australian dollar might be strong but Qantas sadly isn't. :(

And there's the deal. The airline you aspire to may not even exist by the time you're in a position to apply...

[Journey Man]

TODA

You're question seemed so straight forward... gotta love PPRuNe!

[wiggy]

You're question seemed so straight forward....

:} Trouble is the answer isn't..............................

Gross? Net? Just Basic or do you include allowances/per diems? Training pay? Flying pay? Flying hourly rate?, etc etc.

It's just one question, but there are so many answers.....:ooh:

[Mungo Man]

For sake of international comparisons we could go Gross

That would be meaningless as you could have people earning vast salaries who pay 99% tax living on less take home money than a flying instructor earning so little they don't pay tax. The only meaningful comparison in my view is NET, i.e. how much do you have to spend at the end of the month.

[Nelson15]

Why not stick with the money you receive when you are not flying for a whole month.....

There's a job where you can get a salary for not flying for a whole month?! Sign me up!

[B737900er]

Yeah EXS :}

[Coffin Corner]

For goodness sake. Ten posts of nonsense in response to the original question. Just post gross & net if there's any confusion. He/she asked what your pay was, not what your pension, per diem, flight pay, duty pay, day off payments were etc. I won't post mine because it is nowhere near the highest paid but probably sits within the lowest paid.

[Holyjoe]

E 28500 pa gross + sector pay and allowances. Average monthly take home after shed loads of deductions E 2800.

Now that wasn't difficult, was it?!

[Mr Good Cat]

If you don't mind living in China then a nice full-time 787 gig with Hainan out of Beijing will be worth $348,000 (USD) per year. Of course out of that you've got to find accommodation and other expenses normally included in a contract job.

The fact that they have to offer that amount speaks volumes about the prospect of living and working in the people's republic.

:eek:

[Denti]

Even net income is a pretty meaningless figure without a comparison of cost of living and other taxes deduced elsewhere. For example a 19% sales tax reduces your net income by that amount, energy taxes can reduce that even further. Are social security and pension funds taken out of your net income or your gross, does it reduce your taxable income? Are there tax free portions of your pay?

Trying to compare stuff like that is a huge undertaking, there are companies specialized in that field, however buying their reports is quite costly.

[Just a spotter]

Then to borrow an economics trick as an easy way to get around exchange rates and local costs of living ...

"How many standard Big Mac's can you buy in the country/city within which you're based/live in one year with your take home pay?" No price discounting of the "sandwich" allowed.

Find the price of the burger in a local franchise and divide it into your net (no swapping for Whoppers or other local alternatives ... comparison has to be like for like).

For transparency, it might be helpful to post your net too (in your local currency).

Just a thought.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

China is leading the ExPat world by far if you account for net pay ie after taxes. The Hainan gig though advertising $348K is not truly in your pocket. They are advertising this as Gross pay and then claiming they are paying 120K per year on your behalf in taxes. The Chinese employers cheat on taxes to the Chinese tax collection agency more than anywhere in the world and much of it is sponsored by corrupt internal officials. The narrowbody Captain pay rates at some carriers now are approaching 25K/month and this is probably the best overall pay in the world net of taxes. There are Fed Ex Captains who clear 400K gross but after taxes and deductions are netting about half that amount. Japanese Captains at one time had extraordinary high salaries and bonuses but pay 50% back in taxes. If you choose to come to China it is a long, long, long process and many pitfalls along the way with the medical being one of the largest obstacles. It is a great place to stay 1-2 contracts to pay off your house, save for the kids college and build a nest egg but do NOT treat it as a career option, simply a high paying short term gig then move on to greener pastures with more stability and security albeit much lower pay.

[lifeafteraviation]

You can typically make over $200K USD flying a regional jet in China with some earning close to $300K with OT. You can make only a little more by flying larger equipment.

Heck even part time flying in China (six months off per year) you can make about $180,000.

The tax benefits of working in China mean that you would have to make a lot more than the above numbers to earn the same amount in another country.

Of course working in China will take years off your life expectancy so you have to consider if it's worth it. If you can get a heavy job for a Chinese carrier based in a western country that would be awesome...there are a few such jobs.

[kungfu panda]

Clamchowder- where did you hear that?

My salary all gets transferred to my home bank account every month. Cost of living for me in China is less than half the cost in Europe.

There is no doubt that currently if you can maintain your Chinese medical then financially you can do very very well.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Chowder your statement is falsely misleading. Of course you would need to spend money on living expenses but this is the case anywhere and those living expenses are far cheaper in China than most anywhere in the world. At my airline 90% of our salary is paid in US$ but some pilots who commute are paid 9000 rmb about $1500 per month in actual rmb for living expenses. From this amount they pay for everything ie rent, food, utilities, phone, internet and still save for their beer fund. If you compare living expenses with Dubai or Europe you are 3 to 4 thousand dollars per month ahead in China and all of your remaining pay can easily be wired out anytime barring a Chinese holiday and the banks close. If you look at actual net pay China leads the world in ExPat contracts but the work here is harder and the medicals are difficult and no security here.

[Flying Clog]

You don't need to work in China (proper) for good flying salaries. I couldn't think of anything worse! Yuck.

But you need to get pretty close!

I work for a rather large airline in a former British colony :( and just put in my tax return that shows taxable earnings of 260,000 US dollars (154,000 GBP)!

Oh, and I'm an F/O doing about 8 sectors a month, with around 18 days off per month! :O

I can't think of anywhere else that pays that sort of coin. Still, I hate my employer!

[White Knight]

Horses for courses...

EK 380 Captain; basic 12,000US/month, but then add on the Provident Fund, housing, education, utilities and it's pretty comfortable... (The villa costs EK over 5,000US/month)

[Flyboat North]

Without Question Qantas Long Haul

Have a read of their latest EBA it is an extraordinary document of over 300 pages of entitlement , entitlement , entitlement. Breathtaking

On the Airbus 380

Average Captain - $420,000 - Australian Dollars
Average First Officer - $300,000 - Australian Dollars
Average Second Officer - $200,000 - Australian Dollars


Six weeks holiday from your first years , staff travel which extends to many many family members, free first class trip once every five years, long service leave 3 months after ten years , 25 plus sick days per year (no certificate required) , staff travel after retirement, etc etc etc

To get B747 multiply the above figures by 0.9 , to get A330 figures multiply the above figures by 0.83, to get USD multiply by 0.9

Yes at Qantas we pay our second officers more than a BA narrow body capt, and they are true gentleman you know so that is why we only allow our A380 princes to fly on average 550 hours per year.

[theheadmaster]

Flyboat is a :mad:stirrer with a chip on his shoulder. What he states above is misleading.

[Flying Clog]

Yeah, I figured as much judging by some of the language he was using :}

I, on the other hand, haven't sturred a turd in ages...

We should all earn what we deserve, which is a hell of a lot higher than the industry average to be sure.

I can't complain about my lot, but the race is well and truly on to the bottom, and it's only a matter of time before my employer sees sense and chops my package to pieces.

The onus is on us higher earners working for the 'legacy' lot to fight for our less fortunate brothers, and sisters, so that employers have to raise the bar.

:suspect:

[WYOMINGPILOT]

The days of the above quoted figures for Qantas are long gone. Now Qantas is experiencing cutbacks, furloughs and many Aussies are now in the sandpit. The tax rates and living expenses in Australia are also some of the highest in the world. There is no chance of progression for the long foreseeable future. LCC mindset has invaded Down under and that ship has long since sailed.

Clog: I agree Cathay is a great place but now they only recruit SOs and at a greatly reduced package in comparison to the A scalers. For those looking for a job the options are better in the mainland than HK currently.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are asking the wrong question. You need to understand that there are those with old contracts ( and superior salary packages) and those without.
The package of the former is however somewhat useless information since these contracts are not available anymore.
( An A scaler in Cathay with high seniority makes probably something in the region of 400 k US$ net incl housing. Similar situation at Air France or BA).

Many companies offer only reduced packages for new joiners, so that should be your primary are of interest ( unless you are just gathering statistical value for fun).

[wondering]

Without selling one´s soul in some questionable countries and considering a pilot´s life cycle, UPS gotta be one of the best deals State side. A second year F/O is already on more than USD 10K/month.

United Parcel Service | AirlinePilotCentral.com (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/united_parcel_service)

[ETOPS240]

True enough, Wondering. That said, for this thread to have any real lifestyle relevance, one must consider how long it takes to get on those pay-scales, from the start of your career.

Eg, most competitive UPS new-hires will have a couple of years as an instructor, followed by 6+ years as a regional FO and a couple of years as a regional captain.

So, 10 years of walking what is probably a poorly paid roadmap to get there.

Compared to, say, CX, where a cadet with 0 experience will be on about $13K a month within 4 years.

Then again, 12+ years to command whilst living in an expensive city do take some of the shine off those figures.

[wondering]

Will a CX cadet be really on more than 13K/month after 4y as a new F/O? Without the housing allowance?

In the end it´s all about quality of life e.g. not living in one of the most expensive, overcrowded and polluted places on earth. Priceless :)

[ETOPS240]

Agreed, though there's a reason it's so crowded. I have right to live in the US, HK, UK and AUS. I'm not going anywhere. Horses for courses. I'm on a different package, though.

Yes, a CX cadet will be on 13k at FO level one, without housing; which assumes 3 years as an SO and one as a JFO. This is the current schedule.

[Flyboat North]

Well here it is posted from the horses mouth:

"For those of you who think our salaries are over the top. A reality check.
(this bloke is actually crying poor ?? - but the QF SO gets paid more than the BA narrow Capt who has worked for BA for 15 years - why is it so ??)

QF BASE PAY

12 years of service with QF.

A380 CAPTAIN $310,236 FIRST OFFICER $204,790 SECOND OFFICER $159,380

B747 CAPTAIN $295,560 FIRST OFFICER $195,030 SECOND OFFICER $141,788

A330 CAPTAIN $281,486 FIRST OFFICER $185,736 SECOND OFFICER $144,539

B767 CAPTAIN $252,500 FIRST OFFICER $166,637 SECOND OFFICER $129,782"

I left the for those who think our salaries are over the top remark in , to show you how truly fruity our QF boys are.

So the data I posted earlier was pretty much spot on.

Notice these are base salaries so add between 25 & 50 %

Taking the A380 Capt to around $420K the A380 FO $300plus K, and the SO chappie (the take them on four hour sectors you know) he comes in at around $200K (many joined direct as SOs from Pilot School)

The tax rates in Aust have come down a lot over past decades , unlike the increases in EU , so our Capt will clear approx $250K AUD ,without any tax minimization strategy

Add to this:



Six weeks annual leave
25 plus sick days
pattern protection
one of most generous staff travel schemes around
300 or is it 400 page contract - which is pretty much "Sydney Glamour Boy goes to Hollywood" type deal



Well they thoroughly deserve it , they are the best of the best , they work for the worlds iconic Airline, and as such are themselves icons.


They are such icons that they have taken to marching in the Anzac Day Parade - because "we flew the troops in Saigon"

[ETOPS]

Good grief!!

$250,000 AUD is £137,500 - after 25 years in BA I was clearing £90,000 on the 747 and nothing like that in the years leading up to it...

[ao767]

Fly boat has his head in la la land, I worked there on the 767 for 10 years until a few years ago and my pay was never within $20k of his 76 base pay for a captain, and definitely not a cent of the 25-50% more comment. The base pay was calculated on 80 hours a month and the way they rostered you would struggle to do more and stay married. Juniors got 4 day trips over every weekend with no change in 10 years, no days off by request unless you took leave, and you never got the annual leave that you requested after 18 years there. Worked 16 out of 18 Christmas's as well, explain that to your wife & kids. Tax in Australia is 50% by the time we get stiffed for medical and the new save the country tax plus 10% gst on everything we buy. Some people are just full of ---- and try to stir. There is always 2 sides to every story.

[Flyboat North]

Tax rates 50% , well they do reach 45% , but that is over 180K

Rates are 0 to 20 K - No tax
20 to 40 K - 20%
40 to 80 K - 33%
80 to 180K - 37%
180 & over - 45%


So lower than virtually all of EU , Not Singapore or HK but not far off the USA. Likely lower than some US states

The wages for the A380 bit low more like $440K for Capt, 747 $400K , 330 pushing towards $400K

767 bit of an anomaly as it has only flown domestic last few years , but on the long haul contract , which is geared towards long haul with overtime kicking in on longer legs.

Poor chappies that they are base rate is correct, most Capt getting between $25OK and $290K for Aussie domestic.

All the data I have posted is correct , these guys really have a problem with people posting it will abuse , attempt to humiliate, attempt to intimidate, etc etc,

They don't want the data posted , not hard to figure out why.

Do you know how much they get for an overnight allowance in Japan (one night) - well they get $320 Aussie.

Would be interesting to post the allowances for other ports and an actual link to their EBA, it is an extraordinary document.

Agree wouldn't be my business if it was a private company , but the trade shares so shareholders have a right to know,why their shares have been divided by five

QF also went fleabagging to the Aussie Govt earlier this year want a few billion dollars of tax payers money in the form of Govt Debt Guarantee. Joyce tried talking up a fear campaign about the evils of "Johnny Foreigner", and state owned airlines in the Middle East.

It was pathetic.

No doubt we will see another parasitic raid on the Aussie Tax payer by QF to prop up their failing business, always the same disjointed ramble about being "iconic" , and being "icons"

What do you guys get for an overnight in Japan ?

The worst offenders on Long Haul are the 330/380 crews. A reasonable number of 330s went to Jetstar , so big QF were over-crewed for about four years. The guys weren't even hitting 500 hours , still on the big $$$, same for 380 guys over last few years few getting above 550 hours.

Interesting Comparison from other Poster

25 years BA 747 clearing $165K Aussie

25 years QF 747 clearing $240K Aussie

or QF Second Officer A380 clearing 72,000 British Pounds

But mate you don't work for an "iconic" airline so that is why there is a difference

More than happy to parasite on the Aussie Tax Payer to keep the racket going.

[kungfu panda]

Flyboat North- you really have a problem with guys achieving reasonable contracts for themselves and their families.

They are at least dragging industry pay up rather than down like so many fools do. It just shows what a strong bargaining hand unionized Pilots have.

Could you maybe revert to trying to humiliate overpaid bankers and Ceo's of failing companies, I think you will find that they are the true leaches, whose bonus's are multiples higher than the money we are talking here.

[Flyboat North]

No I don't have a problem with people being paid what they are worth.

I do have a problem with my Qantas shares going down, when I can see the cause

I also have a problem with a company trying to con our Govt into giving them billions of dollars so their workers can continue to live like royalty, when I know their workers are overpaid 50%

I would prefer the money to be spent looking after the disabled, and improving our Universities, not providing a subsidy so QF second officers can continue to earn $200K (that is clearing 72,000 Pounds After Tax)

[dkz]

Hot desert, narrowbody capt (year 1):

9500 usd basic + 3800 usd housing
free medical insurance (family too)
education allowance (covers around 80-85%)

no tax, cheap gas, skin cancer included :E

[kungfu panda]

The management chose to ask the government for those guarantees, the government chose to provide the guarantees. The employees just negotiated the best deal for themselves and their families which they could, this is their legal right in a democratic country. As a shareholder you appointed the management that agreed their pay, if you didn't agree you would have sold your shares, if you didn't like the pay in the first place then you would not have bought the shares.

Unfortunately in Europe the right of Pilots to collectively negotiate a fair contract has been removed by ruthless management's who take advantage of discrepancies in the laws between the different countries. Recently some companies were targeting pay for 737 captains at below 50,000 GBP, that is the same as London underground train drivers. Contrary to popular belief operating jet aircraft in different environments and weather is a significantly more skilled job and responsible job than running a train on rails around a city.

Maybe BA have about the correct and fair scale for this job, but in my view salaries should be set by collective bargaining.

[Derfred]

Flyboat,

The information you are posting is incorrect.

This is a professional pilot's forum. Do you have that instrument rating yet? When you do, come back here and maybe someone will help you find your first flying job.

[Willie Nelson]

Derfred,

Genuine question, putting aside some of Flyboat's emotive language, which part of his post is incorrect? Interested to know.

[pull-up-terrain]

Genuine question, putting aside some of Flyboat's emotive language, which part of his post is incorrect? Interested to know.


When FBN mentioned adding 25 to 50% on top of base salary.

Realistically it is about 0% to 25% for the majority of pilots unless they are doing a :mad: load of overtime (which is virtually impossible in the current climate).

Also, not that many pilots are on the 12th year pay rate too.

[pull-up-terrain]

His average a380 incomes are out by quite a fair bit too. Put it this way, there are very very very few a380 captains earning more than $350k and there are very few a380 FO's earning more than $250k and there are very few a380 SO's earning more than $180k.

I'm still yet to meet an a380/744 FO on more than $250k or a SO on more than $180k.

I wonder if FBN has seen the a320, A330 and 777 contracts for China Southern and Hainan Airlines, these a330 captains are earning $250k net after tax and before allowances, bonuses etc. I don't think you will find any QF a380/744 captains earning that kind of money after tax.

Even the 777 captains at Virgin Australia have a base salary of around $286k which isn't very far off the QF 744 pay.

[Flyboat North]

We are all aware of what the Chinese carriers are paying , the money is about the same as Qantas except



20 days leave per year instead of 42
are you allowed to have a sick day in China, almost limitless paid sickies at Qantas
you will fly close to 900 hours per year, instead of Gentleman's 550 at Qantas
working for contract company , which could go belly up anytime
Chinese will change your contract when and how they feel
living working in a totalitarian , overcrowded polluted state
Few basing in Aus
Can get canned in a sim anytime , no rights of redress
astronaut standard medicals
chinese pilots smoking in cockpits
Can get canned anytime for any "cultural" slight that you were completely oblivious about
Contracts are only for 3 years , will the same $$$ be available after that
They will fling you as soon as they can, look at how quick SIA flung the expats


Great deal it is, where do I sign ?


Noticed Barry Jackson(former QF pilots union boss) wrote an article in the AFR today, trying to fleabag money for QF from the taxpayer yet again talking up a "Johny Foreigner" scare campaign. He is only wanting a few billion in the form of an interest free loan.



Truly parasitic conduct the QF boys want go back on the public tit.

[pull-up-terrain]

We are all aware of what the Chinese carriers are paying , the money is about the same as Qantas except.

From the contracts I have seen, it's significantly more than Qantas pay.

Last year, China Southern were paying Australian based a330 capatains $250k net after tax base salary with 42 days leave which is the equivalent of earning $440k AUD before tax. There were bonuses on top of this if the pilots complete there 5 year contract of approximately $40k.

I'm telling you now, an A380 training captain at QF wouldn't earn $250K after tax...

There is an A330 training captain job for Hainan airlines based in China, 42 days on, 14 days off, $348k base after tax, equivalent of $630k AUD before tax. 20 days leave.

Some of the QF guys doing LWOP for Emirates, reckon financially they are better off at emirates then they are at Qantas. Emirates pay there accomodation, private schooling, medical costs for the whole family and they earn an income after tax on top of that with 42 days leave.

[Flyboat North]

Your own man Barry Jackson said four years ago the average A380 captain was only earning $415K (AUD) , that is before the pay rise.

That is $20K Aussie a month clear think you are up 10% since the payrise, anyone got a link to the actual contract ?

Emirates is $12/13K Aussie a month clear , oh but you get a donga to stay in & we pay your power bill , but you will be flying 90 hours a month. Temps of 45 degrees for months it just sounds wonderful.

Who HooOOOO. What a deal mate !!!. Private school fees there are exorbitant and they are capped in terms of amount, no of kids. There are actually great high schools particularly the selective ones around Sydney (I went to one of them) , high schools in Perth regularly out gun the top private schools (Applecross , Rossmoyne HS etc etc) - don't cost a cracker.

Barry tried saying the QF pilots were in the middle of the pack , in terms of pay , bollocks - you are absolutely miles and miles in front

South America & Africa - no contest there

The Sand- see data above , good coin for a bloke from a developing country

EU- BA 747 clearing 165,000AUD , QF 747 clearing $240K - so 50% up

Lufthansa & Air France/KLM very seniors might get near but lets have a closer look.

Luft: It is in Germany, and Germany is the strongest economy in Europe , and it has advanced manufacturing and other things like a pharmaceutical industry. Germany has more people than we do and Australia is not Germany

Air France/KLM : A financial basket case which the froggie Govt still owns 20% of , losses for years

China: The best you will do is $18K USD for 80 hours a month. The quote of $350USD pa is complete Bull as is the 42 days annual leave.

I posted some of the other disadvantages on earlier.

But likely the biggest one is that you are relying on Flight Crew Agency men telling you the big kind airline is paying all your Chinese tax, you can commute from home or be based at home and have to pay no tax to your Govt - sure thing !! I am so sure the ATO has given the Flight crew agency men a binding private ruling , so sure so sure. The Agency men are very knowledgeable to provide this advice and are complete experts on international tax law.

The QF pilots are icons and are special and deserve to be paid 50% more than their other first world counterparts. Lefts give them a three billion dollars of tax payer money - we should organize a protest march.

I have to go now , I have a date

[lifeafteraviation]

I'm not sure what the tax is in Australia but in China it's zero....the salary is after tax and the employer pays the tax for you.

Also, at most Chinese carriers you get far more than 42 days paid leave per year. I think most contracts are a minimum of 90 days with up to six months paid annual paid leave for a bit less salary. On top of that you get the scheduled rest days to comply with regulations and flying limits.

Last year I flew about 550 hours and had about 130 days paid leave outside China. I also took a bunch of paid sick time.

Chinese contracts aren't paid on an hourly rate. You are guaranteed a salary with overtime promised after 80 hours. Some pilots pile on the OT, some don't. There are almost always other paid benefits such as annual guaranteed bonus, housing allowances and travel allowances on top of salary that amount to a few thousand more per month.

Yes there are disadvantages to working in China but there's also many advantages. For the most part I wouldn't recommend it to any but young and single people who don't have significant attachments to family or who's family will come with them. I also recommend trying to be based in a southern city with less pollution and a better climate.

As far as job security, I think it's no different. Pilot jobs are never stable anywhere but I've never heard of a Chinese carrier furloughing foreign pilots before.

If you have a decent paying and relatively stable position elsewhere, keep it.

Mostly I would just like to set some facts straight.

[Tankengine]

Australian top rate of tax (over $180K) is 47.5% and shortly plus 2% more.:sad:

Flyboat North is a wannabe pilot, a troll with a twisted view of QF pilots.:rolleyes:

He is also a liar, spruiking crap time and time again on the Downunder forums.:ugh:

[lifeafteraviation]

Typically only about ten percent of foreign applicants are accepted to fly in China by the various airlines. Since you must already be a current and experienced captain in your own country it can be quite an ego blow to be turned down by China especially since the reasons are usually vague.

So for every guy flying in China there are about ten pilots who may have some personal resentment toward China (despite that they may actually be better off).

[harry the cod]

FBN

Not sure why I'm bothering really but more for the sake of the original poster than disproving your blinkered view, especially as we've had a few senior ex QF 380 F/O's join recently.

11 year Emirates, 8 years as Captain. Monthly amounts, give or take a few dirhams are;

Basic 43500
Flying pay 5500
Housing allowance 15000
Line training pay 6000
Provident fund Co. Contributions 6500

That's around 76,500 per month. Let's remove the LTC for comparing like with like so call it a round 70,000. That's 840,000 per annum or U$230K. I've not included the Company contribution to education which is around 60,000 per annum or meal allowances or profit share. So, to earn 230k would require a salary in the region of 380k gross based on a 40% deduction. These are US dollar figures so 400 straight for Aussie, alright?

Granted, being here for 4-5 months during the hotter months can be a grind, but less so than the noise and congestion in HK or the constant smog and pollution in China. And as an aside, I'm not from a 'developing country'.

Enjoy the flies mate!

[Flyboat North]

Harry did the "Senior Qantas FOs" mention to you that they are actually on LWOP for three years, and they still have their seniority numbers reserved for them back home. Or did they just forget to mention that fact.

Harry - THINK man , THINK

How many people actually resign from legacies which still have premium conditions to go to the sand, as we know it isn't many.

Many Air France / Lufty A380 FOs quit and jumped over , what was that , oh OK a big fat zilch.

They are just kicking the tyres and taking advantage of the LWOP getting foreign contacts, licence etc , esp high value licences such as JCAB fly out of Japan for a few years, really you would be crazy not to.

Are you also aware Emirates virtually have a direct transfer arrangement with Emirates, and very much have a fast track selection into the airline, if they want a job meet mins, they pretty much have the job. Great think "partners" huh ?

Your numbers aren't bad but they need bit of work, for example I don't think you should be including the provident fund, I wasn't including Australian superannuation which is now just under 10%.

Also your inclusion of the housing allowance is somewhat questionable. It is standard condition that if you go to an "adverse conditions" environment for work , accom gets thrown in , quite significant storage costs at home for whatever belongings remain etc. So really we need to take off your provident fund, we will allow you half of housing allowance , so let's say 65,000 per month.

It is a pretty good deal you have, but do a side by side comparison would your prefer to live in ArabVegas flying 900 hours per year on $200K clear, or Cottage on Northern Beaches flying 550 hours a year $240K clear -head down to Manly for Morning surf a few days a week when home.

The question doesn't need to be answered really does it ?

How would the average Euro have any concept of the debilitating and lifestyle limiting effects of 3/4 months of over 40degrees Celsius every day that you have there in ArabVegas wonderland ?

What $$$ value would you put on that ?, must be V hard for those with small children

[hownowbrowncow]

FBN, could you please stop referring to the bad conditions and lifestyle that pilots have to put up with living in the desert or Asia and using that as some sort of justification for the higher pay.

Yes, we know that those airlines have to pay more for pilots to go there because nobody actually wants to live there, but how is that any justification to pay pilots in oz less because they live in a nice country?

Are you seriously saying that Qantas pilots should be paid less because the job is (was) safe and Australia isn't a :mad:?

[737Jock]

Lowcost in europe, French contract, captain, 135k basic EUR per annum plus sector pay around 15-20k, 10% loyalty bonus after 5years in company 15% after 10years (time in RHS counts), performance bonus in December, plus: pension, loss of licence (lumpsum and temporary for 2 years), paid sick days, medical, uniform, healthcare insurance partly paid by company and yearly free shares. SFO, a bit over 100k EUR total package. Other scales I don't know.
It's not the highest paid job... but it only took 7years of flying to achieve, still have over 30 years to go.

I probably forgot some stuff. But I'd rather be in Europe then in china or the sandpit.

[FlyingTinCans]

How would the average Euro have any concept of the debilitating and lifestyle limiting effects of 3/4 months of over 40degrees Celsius every day that you have there in ArabVegas wonderland ?

It's pretty easy to get through, turn the air con on. Or if that's too much hard work get your maid to do it.

If you want some fresh air & not melt, a group of us charter at yacht and and spend the day on the Gulf.

It's a tough life here

[harry the cod]

FBN

"we will allow you half of housing allowance"

What would you like me to do with the other half? Tell the Company so they can keep it or just keep quiet, stuff it under the pillow and not include it towards paying off my family villa? What bizarre logic you apply when you want to prove a point!

As for surfing, it's not my bag baby but my son really enjoys the beach here in Dubai. Not Manly but there again no pissed up drunkies taunting the lebo gangs.

As for The ex QF F/O, he was not exactly extolling the virtues of his previous employer and was not planing on returning anytime soon. Kept muttering something about senior captains, union reps and self interest, redundancy, and possible command on a narrow body by the time he's eighty. Switched off after 10 minutes. Might of also mentioned taxes, immigration and cost of living but I really was asleep by then even with the occasional profanity he through in!

Keep swatting those pesky flies mate!

[pitotheat]

FBN has got a real monk on about something. Has someone not told him that in a commercial environment, even one propped up by the government, you get the market rate. If you think you deserve less then you need to reread the rules. If you are a qualified commercial pilot stay away from Europe we've got rid of most of the whingers from down under to the desert a few years ago and we're not in a hurry to see anymore. Have a nice day!

[lifeafteraviation]

The highest paying jobs are when you run your own successful business and own your own plane. A small twin turboprop or something that actually requires flying skill, unlike our modern automated airliners.

Then your life is actually interesting and exciting and you don't spend your days in here whining.

[Flyboat North]

Yes the Cronulla chaps didn't do us so proud, but we have developed an innovative relocation program where they can move to some of the world's great cultural centres such as Bali, Pattaya etc and still collect their dole cheques. The concern is that they will be trained how to really throw on a good riot by the 1st Worlds undisputed Champions of White trash the English lager lout.

How many billion dollars did they cause last year, or perhaps the year before in the London riots, caused by the great evil of - was it a power outage.

The principle of housing allowance when going to punishment posts is really quite well established.

In Australia if you want to live somewhere which is climatically similar to ArabVegas , say a mine in the Pilbara - well you get a donga thrown in as part of the deal. Same for doing a tour of the antarctic or working offshore - you get accommodation. Same for working in places like Saudi - you get a "villa" & Qatar most places the white man goes to work in the Middle East in fact. You get somewhere to live.

So to include this as part of your salary is in some ways a little disingenuous. Are you including the costs of storage of your household goods back home , paying for maintenance that you can't perform back home yourself , how much does it cost people to relocate to the ME ?

Really a cursory browse through ArabVegas real estate, shows that for a single guy wanting a nice two bedroom , not penthouse but above a fifty sq metre (do you need a hand with the conversion to Imperial there Harry ?) dogbox , the 15,000 per month won't cut it, yes surprise surprise the Arabs have short changed you, just like the education allowances - you will have to put your hand in your own pocket.

So if you elect to take the allowance you won't cover rental costs, and all utilities will be from your pocket.

[Setright]

''No I don't have a problem with people being paid what they are worth.''

Yes you do..........you're a hypocrite!


''I do have a problem with my Qantas shares going down, when I can see the cause''

I sold my shares at $5.25 when I realised Emirates would be flying to Australia. Not only are you a hypocrite, you are an equally bad investor as well!


''I also have a problem with a company trying to con our Govt into giving them billions of dollars so their workers can continue to live like royalty, when I know their workers are overpaid 50%''

I did not reinvest in Qantas because the government wanted them to compete with the overseas airlines from an Australian base, with both hands tied behind their back. (no access to foreign capital). Any subsidy paid by subsequent Governments were to level the playing field, Australian costs and tax rates competing with Low cost low tax Asian labour. Qantas has been trying to off shore for years to no effect. Your assessment to cause, is simplistic and self serving!


''so their workers can continue to live like royalty, when I know their workers are overpaid 50%''

Really Mr Flyboat North, you decided!............ If you don't see any problem with having an Australian income for Australian costs reduced by 50%, then you won't mind if we reduce all your future wages, pension, unemployment and annual leave entitlements, government services etc by 50%.


''I would prefer the money to be spent looking after the disabled, and improving our Universities, not providing a subsidy so QF second officers can continue to earn $200K (that is clearing 72,000 Pounds After Tax)'' (Bull**** with a capital T.)

No one gives a :mad::mad: what you prefer, Mr Flyboat North, and your figures are self serving Bull**** with a capital T.
If you feel so strongly, put your money where you mouth is and donate, or run for office and see how much support you get!



I will now apologize to everybody else on this thread sans Mr Flyboat North, for my rant................ for being the gentlemen that they are and putting up with this burke!

Unfortunately my tolerance to online stupidity has been receding at the same rate as my hairline!

:ugh:

[jriv]

What could have been a really cool thread about where a guy could pull down the most coin turned into a dick measuring contest.

Bummer.

[Jenson Button]

FBN, do you have anything worthwhile to add other than spouting cr@p that is so off the mark regards this thread ? Please shut the eck up or else discuss reasonably about where the grass is greener.

Highest pay is in China but then the lifestyle might just suck, so does the air you breath.

[Window heat]

I'm a senior F/O on the A330 with QF. Gross is about $210k all done and dusted. I pay about 40% of that to the govt in tax. Those are the headline numbers.

I pay for my own medical, dental, income protection and all other insurances. I pay for 100% of my kids education and my housing. I pay all the fees to renew my medical and licence.

Meal allowances vary but are about 15k per year. They are the rate that government employees get when they travel, which is about $4/hr on a domestic trip and the cost of eating meals in the cafe restaurant at the hotel we use in each city. There are no additional payments of any kind on top of that except for superannuation, which on the current scheme is no better than the average Australian worker gets. Oh, and I got an ipad to keep my flight library.

I have been in the company for 19 years and have averaged 2.5% in pay rises per year. This is the 3% AIPA normally negotiates minus the pay freezes we have taken over that time. This is just under the average inflation rate over the period and about 1.2-1.5% less than AWOTE earnings increases over the period. We do pretty well but at first glance but living in Australia eats more out of a salary that has no living allowances than most places. That is what makes this thread so complex, apples and oranges.

Flyboat North is playing games with most of his facts and seems to be looking for a rise out of the QF guys. I think he may be OW in disguise or someone similar. The 25-50% extra he speaks of is unfounded. There is no such thing as overtime on the twin fleets, they don't go anywhere that pays those rates! The QF A380 is a unique case in world aviation. Nearly every sector it does is ultra long haul, meaning that it carries a large overtime payment. To put up with the prune inducing time you spend on those sectors, they can have the money. The 744 is similar in that it does huge overtime sectors.

For those who want this thread to be just about numbers, life is not that simple.

[Ronand]

To get back to the topic, I recently heard from a captain that presidential flight in
Abu dhabi has the worlds best paid pilots (arround 30.000 usd/m net plus extras)

[ETOPS240]

There are plenty of guys in Asia making 20k salary plus 10k housing.. Plus extras..

[MCDU2]

I think it's very simple.....the best paying jobs are in outfits/countries that the majority of people do not wish to work. In many cases it means flying with people that have low standards which in itself tends to lower your life expectancy.

Above average money is available to those with training/standards qualifications or who have a specialist skill such as setting up an AOC for a startup. This is usually in a s*ithole though.

Average to good money can be attained by joining an established airline and working your way up the seniority list. They tend to be in civilised countries where you are hit for varying levels of taxes.

Poor earnings can be made pretty much anywhere in the world.

There is no golden goose and no easy fast track route available to the big pay checks.