AirTanker recruiting FOs

[StopStart]

AirTanker, based at RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire, are advertising for FOs on their A330s. The ad suggests an Airbus rating but I imagine they might consider suitable candidates with other jet types if enough 'bus people weren't forthcoming.

Widebody Airbus based in the Cotswold......? :cool:

AirTanker FOs (http://www.airtanker.co.uk/our-people/working-at-airtanker/current-vacancies/2014/05/02/first-officer)

[JliderPilot]

You fancy it stoppers?

[billybuds]

Had a bit of a search and can't find much info, anyone able to enlighten me?! T&C's, roster etc? Cheers :ok:

[Count von Altibar]

Not sure the money is too good but it's a secure job and it could be varied and interesting. I wonder what they pay for skippers?

[Wireless]

Only bus rated I see. Did they recruit non bus rated last time? I'm 747 but that just wont cut it :(.

[StopStart]

They did take non 'bus rated folk last time...

[magicmick]

I could be wrong but I think that as part of the deal you have to join the RAF reserves and agree to be deployed wherever the queen decides to send you.

[Daysleeper]

I'd heard, though accept I may also be wrong, that they had enough of those to fill their quota so were looking for civy only pilots for the G reg only side of the operation.

The advert makes no mention of joining the reserves unlike previous adverts.

[foxmoth]

Pay deal was not great when I saw this a while ago, may have improved now though.

[macdo]

Rumours around that Air Tanker may be subbing for a big UK charter company next year. Any substance to this?

[Al Murdoch]

Does anybody know in what region this not-so-great pay deal is? Sub 50k?

[VinRouge]

Rumour on the mil forum of captains pay of circa 90k, first officer 60k

Air tanker would be a pretty good outfit to work for. Facilities are tip top and they have some really decent people working for them.

[Aluminium shuffler]

But you will also be rubbing shoulders with RAF personnel on less than half your pay and a very different ethos. I think that it'd be an unpleasant environment with a lot of bitterness on both sides, judging by the comments on the military side of the forum. I can't say I blame them, either - the armed forces should have their own kit and capability, and a PPI sucks more money out of other projects as it has to be a profitable venture.

[VinRouge]

Aluminum, having been down route and shared some pretty austre accommodation as well as share the flight deck on the following mornings dead head back to Brize with a reservist air tanker crew, my experience was quite the opposite.

I think the civilian world gets an insight into how much greener the grass is on their side, the military pilots are keen to learn what can be done to dig the quickest, deepest hole to civilian transition at the moment. The salaries thing has caused no "them and us" at all; all it has done has drive individuals in the military to get their licences quicker! We all know that as military pilots, we didnt pay for training, rating, class one medicals and didnt have to live with the debt associated with getting into the industry (instead being given a room for 200 quid a month with an attached bar with beer a pound a pint); besides as one senior officer briefed, the military is a bit like being on a train to Glasgow, its a rough ride but if you dont like it, PFO, you can get off at any stage.

From the civilian side, I think the biggest misnomer the reserve pilots have picked up on is the standard and quality of crew resource management and attitude to the job; I think a few probably had concerns as to how military rank structure played into CRM and operational decision making, as there have been horror stories in the past from the 70's generation of military captains making civilian transition. Not the case these days; guys have been operating in pretty tough conditions now for well over a decade (if you think sub part Q is bad, you should see our regs) and its put guys in situations that you just wouldn't find in civvie street. We embrace PACE, CRM training and we dont have the issues of being overly sensitive and worrying about union involvement; if someone isnt performing, the crew debrief process picks up on any non SOP adherence or deviancy pretty quickly. This involves debrief from all members of the crew, not just the officer front enders. I have seen a senior officer debriefed on weakness by a crew member of a far lower rank. Crew integration and cockpit gradient issues simply do not exist in military aviation these days from my perspective of over 4000 hours operational experience on the front line.

By and large, the guys working for air tanker on the civvie side accept that the company is offering some of the best T+C's in the industry, with PFI backed job security to boot. With the past few years worth of redundancy, Im sure many would love the opportunity to have a stable secure job. Worth the lower salary? That's your call! :ok:

[Brian Fantana]

"the company is offering some of the best T+C's in the industry"

Any T&C'S info ?

Wide body FO from civil world will most probably be on +£60k salary.
Add to that flight duty pay and sector pay.
Then the rest of the the package, company pension contributions, loss of licence insurance, death in service benefits, permanent health insurance, staff travel scheme and annual leave.

[Orion Man]

Rumours around that Air Tanker may be subbing for a big UK charter company next year. Any substance to this?

A little birdie told me the same and a deal with Thomas Cook is imminent and awaiting signing off by the respective boards.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Vin Rouge, I had no intention of criticising any group. I am ex RAF and current airline, so I have seen plenty of ill-founded stereotyping from and against both groups, and in my experience, you have to take each individual as they come -there are good and bad everywhere. However, when I made some enquiries a while back to see what the service reaction was to this scheme, I got my head bitten off. I hadn't made any kind of comment, I merely asked what their views on the scheme were, and I received a stream of insults. So, while I hope that the A330 Sqns have a healthier atmosphere, my suspicions of the distrust amongst service personnel towards civvies seemed well founded. That may be broken down after a while of joint operations, where they see that civvies aren't all hopeless pilots and the civvies see that the RAF guys aren't all arrogant kids, but it'll take longer for the fast jet Sqns to accept them.

[VinRouge]

Aluminium, sorry, didn't mean to cast dispersions. I would chin off those that bit your head off, whether the pfi is or isn't good value is neither here nor there really, i gt the impression there is little animosity between civvie and military every time I'm over here.

As I aid seems a nice set up, admittedly I don't work there though.

[Jwscud]

Anyone with inside knowledge know if it is worth applying without a bus rating?

[angelorange]

Civi and Mil pilots have been working together for decades and producing the very best results - Much flying training and aircraft positioning was done through Civi contractors in WW2 and beyond.

In 1995 EFT for RAF, RN and AAC was successfully contractorised under JEFTS (Huntings). This became LAFT2 (VT/Babcock)/ 3FTS in more recent years.

And today you can join as a civilian gliding instructor:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/wanttojoin/civilianglidinginstructor.cfm

As for payscales I very much doubt the AT civi pay is better than a decent pension and Flt Lt salary / Spec Aircrew wage.

[VinRouge]

Angel,

60K for 2000 hour medium and heavy captain, IRE, Sim instructor, 4000 hours Total time on 5 different types from single engine turboprop to 4 turbo, to 3 Jet. plus all the cr@p that goes in with the military (fewer people, more work). Rosters that change 12 hours before you launch. Thats before we talk about the tents.

No way is it comparable!

Pension, looking at around 55K lump sum and an annual pension of 7k, wit no CPI increment until Normal Pension age. Thats for 18 years service and the TOS are a whole load worse for new guys!

Would I change it? Not for the world. Great group of guys and girls to work with.

[pilotatlast]

Anyone successful in getting an interview for this?

[Panther1984]

Applied and heard nothing so far.

[Tourist]

Angelorange

Are you having a laugh!?

JEFTS was a total mess. Civvy instructors who couldn't teach aeros and formation.
Civvy instructors who had failed RAF selection teaching the RAF to fly!
Totally shambollic hierarchical structures and willy waving between civ and military.

If you had said Shawbury then fair enough. That was well run.

As far as wages comparison, you are having a laugh.
As Vin said, I don't regret a moment, but financially my mil years are a black hole.

[Flying Wild]

Anyone hear anything back yet?

[angelorange]

Actually JEFTS put out almost 500 students per year and those at LOO actually found the quality to be higher than elsewhere at that time - some of that might have been to do with the choice of aeroplane which matched the cadence in terms of event cycle for the first 50 hours of Tucano BFT plus screening for the single seat Harrier force.

The truth is the Civis were mostly ex RAF/RN and AAC and those that weren't happened to be top notch QFIs and aviators with a National Aerobatic champion among them. They had the highest number of A2 QFIs of any unit and the chief pilot was an A1 QFI. They had to do regular RAF STDS, CFS Exam Wing, Flt and Sqn Cmdr rides and maintain CAA QFI, SEP and Multi IRs. So stop the drivel and get down to the facts! As for pay they were on significantly less than service personnel at the time and lost out on pensions when companies changed.

Lets hope future contracting teams learn from the past and repudiate dyed in the wool prejudices!

[Tourist]

Angelorange

It is you that spouts drivel.

Yes there was one outstanding civvy instructor, but I can't think of any other non ex mil were not dross.

It was a shambles.
No continuity, far too many students, busses for an hour in the morning to RAF Netwon because Barkstone could not cope. 50% of the flying in the last 10% of the course due to backlogs. Students being launched en mass into suckers gaps. Farcical briefing arrangements.

Yes the 260 Firefly was good, but that is hardly relevant.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Putting JEFTS to one side for a moment, anything on ATrS recruitment? I threw an application in for this as a non-'Bus-rated ex RAF Multi Engine mate. I'm curious as to whether they are getting many rated applicants, or if most are in similar situations to myself?

[ShotOne]

If your unpleasant "dross" accusation were true, Tourist, clearly the (RAF) checking procedure is at fault. There weren't separate assessment procedures for ex-mil and non ex-mil instructors.

As for the rest, almost everything you said could have applied to my 1984 BFTS course, except that was preceded by six months holding due to shortage of ...well nobody bothered even to ask, Her Majesty was paying. Happy days!

[Al Murdoch]

Meanwhile, back at AirTanker....

[salsaboy]

Yes,back to AirTanker...

Do they recruit skippers? Or all internal?

[Flying Wild]

Apparently they've had over 300 applications in. The hiring manager will be in touch with people whether successful or not. Not sure what to think if nothing has been heard and the first interview date is next Tuesday!

[Father Jack Hackett]

I'm certainly not getting a warm and fuzzy about it....

Do we know what the demographic of the applicants is? I can't imagine many rated chaps jumping from the UK operators but I guess there might be some ex-pats looking to resettle back in Blighty.

[Blighty Pilot]

I'd heard closer to 650 applicants ranging from people hoping to exit the desert to Monarch and Virgin peeps!

I'm more than happy where I am but good luck to all concerned :ok:

[Father Jack Hackett]

If people are jumping out of Monarch or Virgin to Airtanker, I find that:

A) Weird and

B) Potentially good news for some....

[Blighty Pilot]

Time to command & retirement I guess!

[Father Jack Hackett]

Perhaps an issue in Virgin, not to mention potential question marks over the future of the company - Airtanker should be a pretty safe bet for the future.

I thought Monarch was a good place for command these days?

[Blighty Pilot]

The future of any company is an unknown but the Virgin/Delta tie up is certainly looked upon as a positive move and both companies are already reaping the rewards!

Wrt Monarch and command, if you're on the long haul fleet with a long haul life style and you're offered command then you have to go back to short haul and kiss goodbye to the a330. I don't see a long haul future for monarch anyway tbh. Once you do get your command at spotty M it's then 4-7 days on to DLM, BOD, TFS etc etc for the next 30 plus years (if it's not sold off or merged before that with the associated job uncertanty).... No thanks! Air Tanker would be relatively easy work, possibly a quick command and used as a stepping stone to elsewhere.

Lots and lots of different scenarios but people make their own educated choices out of what suits them. As people get older it's not just a command thing or a money thing, people will make decisions based on other, more important factors such as lifestyle! Now, Air Tanker and it's type of work might not suit me but it might be right up an ex mil chaps street or someone who is in the desert looking for an exit or someone who is perhaps in their late 40's at one of the above mentioned airlines who would like a long haul command to see their days out. Horses for courses chaps/chapesses!

[StopStart]

As far as I'm aware the apps from Virgin were from 1 or 2 folk that were looking to go part time with Virgin and part time reservist with ATr. Happy to be corrected though.
Don't worry Father Jack, I think the only potential questions over the future of the company at the moment are whether we get 777 or 350s.....:ok:

[Father Jack Hackett]

Stoppers,

I know, it's a hard old life at VS, lucky git!

Blightypilot,

I had indeed heard that LH wasn't really part of the Monarch future master plan, but certainly as a short-haul prospect I think they compare pretty well with the competition. Now if they would only go ahead and recruit already.....

[pilotatlast]

Now that 17th and 24th June (interview dates) have passed did anyone actually get an interview?
Read with interest on their website that 4 Captains and 2 First Officers from Thomas Cook are to be posted to AirTanker for the duration of the Thomas Cook contract. Can't have been looking for many FO's in that case!

[billybuds]

I never heard anything back. A PFO would have been nice!

[Flying Wild]

I'd been told by them that everyone would hear back, yes or no. Doesn't seem to have happened. Have you called to follow up?

[billybuds]

I thought I would give them until the close of play today and if nothing give them a bell on Monday. With no widebody experience I wasn't expecting much!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Blighty Pilot
if it's not sold off or merged before that with the associated job uncertanty

Where you been for the last twenty years plus?
Monarch are born survivors and will no doubt continue to be so. Rumour of announcement at Farnborough:\

[cgwhitemonk11]

I got the expected PFO a couple of days ago and they essentially said thank you but we are focusing on A330 rated for now

[Flying Wild]

Interesting as I'm not 330 rated but have yet to hear a thing.

[Iver]

Do civilian crews tend to stay on base at destinations or are they typically housed in hotels (if available) during layovers?

Also, for those with families considering this opportunity, what is the approx. nights away per month (on average) understanding things can change quickly based on need? Additionally, has Air Tanker flying historically seen any seasonal patterns like you would see in charter flying (i.e., less flying during the winter months) or is it pretty consistent throughout based on support requirements?

[Blighty Pilot]

I don't work for them but I know a man who does and he's described the following:

You're essentially seen as Mil so when on Mil Ops its the Mil Mess you will be staying in.

I've heard of him doing 18 days away on Ascension.

I guess it'll get quite busy now that they have the TCX long haul contract.

[luddite]

I has a PFO as well though quite a nice one :{

[Iver]

For those who were hired recently, where were they sourced from? Easy? Monarch? Has a previous military background been helpful in selection? I realise the TC deal will reduce future hiring needs.

[EGKK.]

hi all

can someone who has recently joined give a little insight to a few things...

Whats a typical roster look like? Time off at home per month and roughly a number of days spent out of the country?

whats your take home from the right hand seat?

time to command?

what plans do the have to increase number of aircraft?


many thx

[Panther1984]

You got an interview EGKK?

[EGKK.]

Nope. Not yet at least...

[Panther1984]

Me neither. Silence since I applied earlier in the year. I have heard its a great place to work and the T&Cs are ok. No idea what the rosters are like. A good source tells me they need 50-60 FOs in the coming future.

[EGKK.]

Me neither. Silence since I applied earlier in the year. I have heard its a great place to work and the T&Cs are ok. No idea what the rosters are like. A good source tells me they need 50-60 FOs in the coming future.

That's good to hear. Fingers crossed we hear something. I guess because of the set up its a little unclear on what their plans are as it's not a regular airline being run in a regular way but it does look a lot more interesting than your run of the mill job in this country. Who knows...

Hopefully someone can shed some more light??

[RalphB2468]

I had an interview last year in July. A good setup indeed, very professional and a nice group of people I met on the day.


Interview was firstly with HR and a CC member, usual HR based questions, straight forward. Next was a technical interview with TRE and an FO who was recruiting. Fairly standard Airbus tech questions and some Low Vis/De icing stuff. Also asked how I would cope with 18 days in the Faulklands with nothing to do in the winter! I was told most flights are night flights to Cyprus carrying troops and that the Thomas Cook gig was imminent, which of course is now.


After lunch a SIM. Basic SID hand flown from Birmingham with FD and ATHR. Once level AP in and a mini loft. I got a situation which required a diversion the Brize Norton for a raw data SRA approach (both FMGC's fell over) which was not part of it but we just cracked on. Following landing reposition 10 miles for a single engine approach and landing.


I didn't take the job when offered so can't say anymore.

[EGKK.]

Thanks a lot. If it's not too rude can I just ask why didn't you take the job?

Anything about them I should know before going forward?

Cheers

[billybuds]

I've heard that some of the new hires are on a secondment with Virgin? Anyone know any more?

[EGKK.]

As far as I'm aware it purely for their line training as the don't have the spare capacity to train them with all the flights and an aircraft apparently in the hanger. That's what I heard anyway

[RalphB2468]

I became a line training skipper shortly after the interview, and secondly I was told that some of the work was a little dull. It's not perfect where I am but then where is....

It's a good setup from what I saw, you'll wait a long time for the change of seat I think.