Norwegian Long Haul

[essexboy]

What is happening at Nowegian Long Haul? Several friends have applied but heard nothing. Have they paused recruitment for some reason?

[Iver]

NLH is feeling the heat from US airline labor unions protesting its "dubious" Norway/Ireland legal structure and pilot hiring practices... Probably put a damper on expansion plans into the US market... Aircraft acquisition talks with Boeing (more 787-9s) have been suspended. Lots of questions.

[LNIDA]

Last i heard we had around 90 pilots awaiting 787 training, recent delays to the delivery schedule and tech issues have reduced the number of training sectors available, hence the use of the 787 on short haul routes this past month.

[ArkPilot]

US labor unions, especially pilot unions have a tendency to be "paper tigers", they make a lot of noise, but to no avail. :ugh:

[Aluminium shuffler]

I wouldn't say that - the AA union got the Kingston 737 captain reinstated without even a loss in seniority!

It all comes down to whether the US authorities decide where the most money lies: the revenue of US airlines without the Norwegian competition or the Boeing sales to Norwegian. They'll protect whichever will gain the most money. Law has little to do with it.

[polax52]

Yes, U.S. labor unions are not paper tigers, they are very connected politically and are very experienced and willing lobbyists.

It's just a shame powerful airline unions don't exist in Europe.

[LNIDA]

I'm inclined to agree with you on this, but it looks like a close call, I gather Norwegian have hired lobbyist to push their case in the US. My own view is that it's slightly positive that the application (route licence) under open skies has not yet been rejected. I suspect that this is a legal minefield, if they reject an operator who holds a EU state AOC then i suspect there will be a big question mark over whether the AOC should have been issued at all? simply rejecting the application because union or airline pressure on both sides of the Atlantic will not be sufficient.

There is no question about safety or indeed quality, the use of crews based out of Bangkok & Thai cabin crew is easily resolved and that seems to be the core issue, many airlines use overseas based cabin crew in part because of the logistics of off days plus language skills.

I would think the DoT are keen to find a way out on this that does not involve saying NO to Norwegian, but at the same time addresses the unions concerns, the easiest way given that Norwegian now has US based cabin crew is to ensure that only US or EU based nationals operate these services, pilots are a bigger problem in part because they would need to hold an EASA licence to fly on a EU AOC so hiring a few Americans might not be a quick fix.

Of course if the USA was a little more liberated on foreign ownership rights then Norwegian could set up a US subsidiary company.

+ large in service fleet of Boeing aircraft, firm orders for MAX are 100 +100 options, firm orders for 787 are now around 17 current NG fleet is 88 with a sizeable number to come before the MAX in 2017.

+excellent product reviews despite all the 787 reliability issues

+ Irish AOC, rejecting the application will be akin to saying to Ireland that your a flag of connivence


- Complicated business structure
- Thai cabin crew or non EU cabin crew
- Bangkok based pilots who are EU national or EASA licence holders

Count down is on for LGW US flights

[Aluminium shuffler]

LNIDA, I think it could go either way, but have no more information than I read on here. I think it all comes down to who has the greatest influence with the authorities; the US airlines saying no or Boeing saying yes. AS I said, the law will have little to do with the decision, but will be manipulated to justify the decision - NLH have the EI AOC, so they meet the legislative requirements and under Open Skies, have to be let in. Then again, as you point out, the IAA could be accused of being a flag of convenience and safety concerns used to justify a refusal. Like you say, it'd be a diplomatic issue, but frankly I don't think the IAA will have much clout. And one has to wonder why so many Italian, Spanish and even Russian airlines are jumping onto the EI register if it isn't making their life easier and cheaper for regulatory, compliance and operational issues...

[slr737]

Looks like they are trying to open a base in JFK :

Company : OSM Aviation
Contract type : Full Time
Aircraft type : Boeing 787
Job location : NEW YORK
Job published date : 2014-05-23
Job expiry date : 2014-05-31
Monthly salary :
Back to view jobs
Job Description
The Long Haul Revolution Continues! OSM Aviation is seeking Captains and First Officers for Norwegian’s Boeing 787 Dreamliners based out of JFK.

Minimum Requirements Captains:
• JAA/EASA License
• EASA class 1 medical
• US citizenship or US Green Card
• 5000 hours total time
• 2000 PIC hours on any Boeing aircraft
• 500 hours on B777, B767 or B747-400
• Current B777, B767/B757, B747-400 or B737 type rating
• Under 61 years old at date of application
• Non type rated B777/787 pilots need to provide a training
cost bond for three years, decreasing by 1/3 each year

Click here to apply and see the original job posting!

Contact :
Website : www.osm.no
Phone : NONE
Fax : NONE

[cactusbusdrvr]

Kind of interesting that they still want the EASA license but US based. Not too many US pilots with heavy. Boeing time with European licenses. A few, I suppose, but not very many.

[oceancrosser]

www.osm.no OSM MARITIME GROUP now with OSM AVIATION...

This is where Björn Kjös comes from, and he needs to be stopped.

As for the Irish CAA, never trust an Irishman (personal experience).

[BluSdUp]

Alum Sflr
So you think the aa Kingston cpt deserves a second chance.
You are wrong , he and his company needs serious retraining.!
With regards to Nørdwegian et al. : Stop them at all cost.
United We Stand.

[Aluminium shuffler]

BluSdUp, that's not what I said at all. I suggest you have a skim through the Kingston thread if you think I agree with how things turned out. I merely said on here that I disagree with the comment that the US unions are paper tigers; they appear to have a lot more bite than the EU unions

[FR_A]

Does anyone has tax information about the 787 bangkok bases job and what they earn net?
I noticed that some bangkok based pilots live in Europe and start their duty in Scandi instead of Bangkok.
But, if you do this, will you still be paying tax in Thailand? Or do you need to pay the tax in the country you actually live in?

[captplaystation]

I think the answer to that question is somewhat more lengthy than can be answered within these forums.

There are as many options as there are different permutations of personal circumstances.

You may either be guided by a good accountant on how to stay legal, or by "bush knowledge" on "alternative methods of compliance (or not)".

[Aluminium shuffler]

FR_A, I suspect the situation will be worse for tax than in FR, which is where I guess you are comparing to at the moment, because the EU has a single taxation agreement that I suspect doesn't apply to Thailand. SO, being based in Bangkok, but living in Cork, you'd be liable for you home social charges and, if the Irish tax system is like the UK's, then income taxes too (though probably at a reduced rate). That's why commuting contracts are not as good as the initial salary looks - they're often in USD, which is currently low against the Euro or Sterling, and even though so many of them are tax fee in the ME or Asia, you will still be liable for EU taxes unless you move out there.

[FR_A]

thanks for the info!

[kungfu panda]

Just for information, with the Chinese contracts the advertised salary is net. Your company pays 40% tax for you and you get a tax paid certificate. There is a double tax agreement, with the UK anyway, and China. It leaves you,legally, just national insurance to pay.

[vladmrlennin]

ARKPILOT,

So you think the US unions are paper tigers. How would you like it if someone tried to take away your job? I happen to work as a pilot for Southwest Airlines and our union is pulling out all the stops. This is war! and I will be damned if I or any other US airline pilot will allow the likes of Norwegian Air into the USA.

[smooth_landings]

Vladmrlennin,

I completely understand where your coming from. If only we showed a little more of this attitude here in Europe we wouldn't be in the disgusting mess we're in now.

Lets face it people Mr Kjos made his name in screwing the Merchant Navy, of which I have connections. He's doing exactly the same with aviation now. He is manipulating the open skies agreement. Smiling assassin.

Suggestion. Perhaps he should just employ European cabin crew and pilots on full time, legit contracts and stop taking the pi**. I wonder how much $$$ he's spending on us lobbyists and commercials?

Just because civil aviation is turning into a virus here in Europe,
Dont expect our American brothers and sisters to accept it.

[despegue]

Well, at the moment, US pilots working for UPS, ABX and Fedex are taking away EU jobs by only allowing US pilots, or FAA holders to fly their equipment doing domestic European flying, based in reality in Europe.

How fair is that?

[ArkPilot]

You, and the rest of SWAPA, ALPA, APA, etc. won't do anything except make a lot of noise on Capitol Hill!:roll eyes:

You may win the lobbying battle, but I wouldn't bet on it.:E

[captplaystation]

I have been told that BK has a lot of "alternative options" to deal with this, including "employment in Europe" through Rishworth , alternative A.O.C's etc etc.

The protestations may delay things a bit, but, in previous actions the operation has continued to grind on whilst the details were hammered out.

Importantly, I doubt if any of this will have the useful side effect of raising the T's & C's of those currently employed, nor of those in the future.

Seems there are more than enough folk tempted by the current uninspiring package to harbour any dreams of it getting significantly better.

[Iver]

Whatever happened to the 787 pilot training agreement between NLH and Virgin? Are there Virgin pilots training on the NLH 787s right now?


See below from last year:






Norwegian Long Haul (Norwegian Air Shuttle (http://airlinersgallery.smugmug.com/Airlines-Europe/Norwegian-Air-Shuttle/15872366_RtkkQC)) (Oslo) has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Virgin Atlantic Airways (http://airlinersgallery.smugmug.com/Airlines-Europe/Virgin-Atlantic-Airways/15674783_qXxgHt) (London). The agreement enables Norwegian to tap into Virgin Atlantic’s expertise on long-haul operations, while Virgin Atlantic’s instructors will receive pilot training on board Norwegian’s brand new 787-8 Dreamliner. Norwegian’s first Dreamliner is due for delivery at the end of June.

The cooperation with Virgin Atlantic will enable Norwegian’s long-haul pilots to make use of the airline’s vast long-haul experience. Virgin Atlantic will make all its training material available to Norwegian. Virgin Atlantic’s pilots to train on board Norwegian’s 787 Dreamliner.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Didn't Virgin cancel their order?

[go around flaps15]

Yes there is quite a few Virgin pilots on secondment at Norwegian long haul flying on the 787.

Most of them are going back at the end of the summer.

[twenty]

Norwegian Long Haul is a terrible company, the way they treat their crews is simply appalling.
They put the crew in a hotel the night before they are supposed to start a duty, what a waste of free time. They even make them eat breakfast, and crew meals.
When they return the company has the audacity to try and put them in a hotel again!
They simply refuse to allow anyone to sleep on the crew room floor, without giving justification.
They refuse to give commands to pilots without long haul experience and they even insist on wide body time for the relief guys, outrageously unfair on everyone else.
They pay the crews at the end of the month, even when they don't fly, why can't they pay by the hour like a proper company.
They don't even have the decency to discriminate, American based cabin crew, where does the travesty end?

[SlowAndSilly]

So... only pension and insurance contributions are on time, then?

[Koan]

Just read an interesting piece of online "journalism" explaining how NAI pays the going global rate for B787 pilots.

So good to hear good NAI provides something at least in the way of HOTAC
and allowances, and is not following the strict bare bones LCC model.
Certainly they pay for uniforms and in-base parking as well. The Royal Thai Taxation department, Ministry of Labour and Thai Immigration should hardly be concerned
about nominally BKK based pilots employed by a Singapore shell company flying continually in and out of Swampy on GENDEC. An immigration crackdown was announced a week before the coup, but full AEC integration is just on the horizon. Yeah, right.

Do you have to come up with the initial training cost or just bond for it,
how much/long would that bond be?
Do you pay for your own recurrent training?
How are sick days allocated? Paid leave?
Loss of license through Rishworth should be available.
Medical cover for these NYC based JAA rated pilots with right of abode in USA should not be an issue, they can apply for Obamacare.

I know this post is sarcastic, but would actually like to know, there is a lot of misinformation on the internet.

[Dreamshiner]

I too have applied for this and despite touching base every now and then with the agency I've been informed that who they call forward ranges from anything from 250 hour guys to 12,000 skippers. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it.

I've also flown on them and yes it was delayed. It was explained that they are "based" in Bangkok (however they've only been on there on layover), their contract was Singapori, where they were paid in Euro's and flew aircraft on the Irish register. Every employee of Longhaul except a very few senior guys are on Rishworth contracts.

The whole thing suggests it has been done a) To avoid the high costs of employment on Scandanavian contracts and b) It can be closed down very quickly with minimal cost if circumstances require it.

Clever tactical moving of the goalposts by the management, however another example how our industry by its nature is exploiting globalisation to enhance the profit margins.

[fullforward]

Spot on mate!
Congrats.:ok:

I think our career prospectives have been continously spiralling down for the latest 30 years or so.
Unfortunately it doesn't look we are about the reach the bottom.
Lot's of youngsters happy in selling mom to have a seat on a flight deck.
On the other extreme, old farts selling themselves very cheapely, after decades on legacy carriers (and fat pensions), for more few years on the same flight deck.
Disgusting.:ugh:

[captplaystation]

Dreamshiner/fullforward,

fair summary.

[kungfu panda]

Fullforward: I don't agree with you. All of us are quite within our rights to work until we are 65 if we so wish or if our circumstances dictate the need to work.

Terms and conditions within Europe are being eroded by our lack of ability to form a cohesive Europe wide Union which has both strength and lobbying power. You see cabin crew unions able to dictate better conditions than Pilots and train drivers paid double or more First Officer salaries.

Youngsters need to be educated that indebting their family to the tune of 125,000 euro plus, endangers both their furure and maybe the future retirement of their parents. unfortunately unscrupulous training organisations continue to sell the dream and not explain the reality.

[Cliff Secord]

Sorry for amazing thread drift but in response to couple of posts above; -

ASLEF have done a remarkable job on the railways. They had true solidarity with the train driver fraternity. A lot of that solidarity in recent times came as a result of privatisation years ago - they essentially represented the entire collective of drivers in the UK who worked for BR. This solidarity carried over to privatisation, how long it will carry through in the future with the fragmentation post privatisation remains to be seen. It's still good though. Recent DB schenker advert for trainees 47k absolute basic for contracted and protected 35 hour week plus serious overtime pay if willing and one of the best pensions going. Hit your contracted 1500 odd hours a year with a rail company and you can chose the rest of the year off.

[kungfu panda]

John Smith

I think encouragement of youngsters to take on significant levels of debt, in a career where your future is very uncertain, purely for personal profit is unscrupulous. In fact it almost defines unscrupulous. What happens when interest rates go from less than 1% to more than 10%. Answer a lot of bankrupt Young F/O's.

The FTO's also discourage their prospective customers from listening to the advice of people who have been through the process.

[captplaystation]

kungfu panda., right with you when you say all of us are quite within our rights to work until we are 65 if we so wish, or if our circumstances dictate the need to work.



But, and it is a big buck. Don't be so bloody egocentric to accept a shat contract as an ex KLM Captain that helps the unscrupulous wannabe long haul companies depress the T's & C's for the next generation.


This last 15-20 years in European aviation has been characterised by a generation of pilots who would accept any old cr@p, because they were "moving on out/moving on up". The problem, as many are now realising, is that by failing to take care of their current T's & C's, they have encouraged the migration of this disease to companies they once aspired to. I would quote Ryanair & NAS as a real time example of this metastasis.

For sure an ex KLM Capt joining NAS doesn't have to worry for him, but how about he gives some thought to his children, or even grandchildren, or at least those amongst their peer group who wish to be pilots.

This "screw you I will top up my retirement/pay for my 3rd & 4th wife" attitude is by no means new, asks anyone employed in an "independent" in the UK how much they have benefited by 55yr old retired "Nigels" parachuting in to add nonchalance to the wage negotiations.

[kungfu panda]

Captplaystation.... It used to be BA guys, now they are able to work until 65. The KLM pilots have an issue, I think that they are retired at 57 now, could be wrong. Some of those Guys want to continue working until they are 65, which they are entitled to do. I would think that they really need to take that up with KLM management. However terms and conditions are not dictated as a result of these guys wishing to prolong their career. Our poor T & C's come from our ineptitude regarding collective bargaining. We hold all the cards, sit the aeroplanes on the ground... they pay more...

[captplaystation]

kungfu panda


Yep, they are by no means the only ones responsible, just that they are perhaps easier to identify (and indeed even understand) than the lame ducks that many are when it comes to taking a stand.

After much of my career spent in companies where the Union supped ale with the management down the lodge (BM) or nobody, or at least too few, had the b@lls for a fight ( & 1 of the two unions involved non plus, - ( Ryanair) . . BALPA were the eunuchs, IALPA were steely men ! ) I am heartened that my current gig seems to be comprised of men who talk softly but carry a big stick (Ooo er mother ! ) Well done the Scandis, the Vikings are not for feckin with.

[Cliff Secord]

Businesses have an obligation to their shareholders (to make money) and to comply with all of the laws which govern their area of commerce in the markets in which they operate. They need not do more than that, and they certainly don't have some sort of moral obligation to protect people from their own stupidity.

Have to say I agree. Businesses will do as businesses see. The desperate will do as they see; too short sighted and will do anything to get through a door until they find their glasses and see what they've just trampled through. That's unchecked capitalism for you. And why you need a referee to provide a counterbalance for these two hand in hand complimenting forces. Without which you're just relying on the goodness of mankind not to exploit and that ain't gonna happen. The nay Sayers are the "haves" or "have nots". Not the silent majority. Looking at the amount of high hat sanctimonious posts on here from people posting from their own feathered nests I'm suprised the airline world has the solidarity to make it through a paper CRM course let alone protect their own workplace as a collective.