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Seldomfitforpurpose
14th May 2014, 09:55
Is this feminism gone mad or does she have a point?

BBC News - Calling teachers Sir and Miss 'depressing and sexist' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27403902)

I for the life of me cannot see the insult in the term 'Miss' but maybe age is not helping me.

Worrals in the wilds
14th May 2014, 09:58
I think she has a little too much time on her hands. :bored:

VH-UFO
14th May 2014, 10:09
The only thing shes miss'ing' is an effing brain.

vee-tail-1
14th May 2014, 11:00
Hmnn BBC R4 this morning A feminist high PC educationalist being interviewed by a BBC radio presenter with the name Michelle Hussain.

Wonder if they kept John Humphries away from this one :rolleyes:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
14th May 2014, 11:24
Ma'am is the correct term (and has been for a very long time), not Miss, and was always used in the schools I taught at where the teacher's name was not known.

Who are these idiots?

I didn't find it made a difference whether teachers were called Sir, Mr X, or Harry by the kids. I did find it made a difference calling kids what they liked to be called.


Once read an excellent book by a former Head who described boys' schools as places where staff were called Sir and insulted behind their backs, and girls' schools where staff were called by their first names and worshiped behind their backs.

500N
14th May 2014, 11:26
Seldom

When I read that today, I almost died of laughter.

Apart from an idiotic proposal, I thought so many other better things
the time could be spent on.

Gertrude the Wombat
14th May 2014, 11:41
Historical hangover from the days when all teachers were "Miss" because they had to leave the job on getting married?


My kids would have us believe that they called their teachers by their first names half the time anyway.

500N
14th May 2014, 11:43
They do here, from Kinder.


Why did they have to leave on getting married ?

Limeygal
14th May 2014, 11:48
but they're all Sir and I'm not

Why would they call her sir? :}

"Sir's" time would be better spent teaching the kids and not used on apparent self-aggrandizement

bosnich71
14th May 2014, 12:00
500 .... they had to leave on getting married so that there were jobs for the men. Men being the wage earners and women the house wives in those far off days. My Mom had to keep her marriage,in 1930,a secret as she wanted to keep her job.
Not applicable now of course as most don't marry anyway.

500N
14th May 2014, 12:02
Of course, I forgot !

cattletruck
14th May 2014, 13:46
All a bit militant isn't it.

It's now a safe harbor for deeply insecure and emotionally damaged women.Wouldn't be surprised if extremist feminists were responsible for their life f-up to push up recruitment into their ranks.

jolihokistix
14th May 2014, 14:26
Magister (L), maistre (F), = Master. A man having control or authority. Teacher. One who has received an academic degree originally conveying authority to teach.

Maistre () +esse, female. Maistresse, Mistress, Miss = Female Master. Feminine title of courtesy.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, T.F.Hoad

While the UK is busy chucking all elements of formality and respect out of the window, some nations still find such things very important.

sitigeltfel
14th May 2014, 14:44
Maitre Marie Vere, the tall one in the black dress, is the one who does nearly all my legal work.

Office Notarial de Maîtres Chantal BASIN, Valérie BASIN-GIGAN et Marie VERE, Notaires associés à Menerbes dans le Vaucluse 84. Domaine d'intervention, compétence, rôle du notaire. www.basin-vere-menerbes.notaires.fr | Immobilier, Notaire, Vaucluse, M (http://www.basin-vere-menerbes.notaires.fr/index.html)

Of course, the only reason I use her is that she is fluent in English.

Seldomfitforpurpose
14th May 2014, 15:47
The bit from the article which confused me mist is

Prof Jennifer Coates told the Times Educational Supplement "Sir is a knight... but Miss is ridiculous - it doesn't match Sir at all".

She said she had been struck by the disparity while volunteering in a secondary school.

The notion of disparity is the ridiculous in all of this, the idea that anyone anywhere, apart from the Lady in question, would see the polite use of a Sir as more respectful than the polite yes of Miss..........

Just a thought but is referring to the lady in question as Lady disrespectful?

Tankertrashnav
14th May 2014, 16:37
Just a thought but is referring to the lady in question as Lady disrespectful?


Well yes, in the academic environment the correct form of address would be "professor".

The trouble with English is we don't have a suitable word to address married women. Madam sounds unnecessarily servile, ma'am we reserve for royalty or senior officers in the police or military (although more widespread in North America), mrs (pronounced missus) just doesnt sound right. In the past "mistress" would have been appropriate, but impossible now as it has another meaning.

Never found any female teachers during my short career who objected to being called "miss", whether single or married. I think the prof has too much time on her hands, now she is "emeritus"!

(btw - University of Roehampton :confused:)

500N
14th May 2014, 16:46
"ma'am we reserve for royalty or senior officers in the police or military"

Senior officers ?

We used to call all female officers ma'am !

Fox3WheresMyBanana
14th May 2014, 17:00
In our little corner of Canada, 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' are the usual forms of address for anyone you don't know, but we live in the 1950's here. Cars still stop for pedestrians in town (whether there's a crossing or not).

funfly
14th May 2014, 17:00
And at Eton they call some of the masters 'Darling'.

Keef
14th May 2014, 17:14
Sounds like the person complaining needs to go back to school to learn the standard forms of address in England.

My beloved wife was called "Miss" although it was known she was married, because that's what female teachers were called "back in the days". When we moved to another part of the country, she became "Mrs Keef" to them behind the desks.

Nobody ever called me "Sir", apart from the local police having a laugh, but that's what we called the male teachers (aka "masters") where I was dragged up.

B Fraser
14th May 2014, 20:15
""Sir is a knight... but Miss is ridiculous - it doesn't match Sir at all".

Call her a Dame and see if she prefers it. :*

Tankertrashnav
14th May 2014, 21:10
Senior officers ?

We used to call all female officers ma'am !


Sorry - one was a junior officer, so one only called the senior officers ma'am ;)

Been a bit of chat about this on Radio 4 this evening. Mary Ann Sieghart (ex deputy editor of The Times} made the point that if a woman is made a Dame her husband gets nothing, whereas in the reverse case the wife of a knight is called "Lady...". Similarly the husband of a baroness is not a lord, but the wife of a lord is called "Lady".

Wonder what the prof has to say about that?

pineridge
14th May 2014, 21:20
I think they should address female teachers as "Sir" as well. There, I`ve fixed it.

ExSp33db1rd
14th May 2014, 22:45
Why not just say " Hey, you, listen to me "

Mechta
14th May 2014, 23:19
I think they should address female teachers as "Sir" as well. There, I`ve fixed it.

Peppermint Pattie found it rather irritating.

bosnich71
15th May 2014, 05:15
Still labels herself as "Professor" though....and probably adds her letters afterwards in all correspondence.

mikedreamer787
15th May 2014, 05:27
If that's really all Coates has to complain about
she must be doing well. Everybody else is more
concerned with the important issues of life, like
the cost and business of living than petty titles.

Worrals in the wilds
15th May 2014, 10:20
Agreed.
She should try a secondment to the transport industry. Watching her apoplectic rage when addressed as 'luv', 'darl' or 'babe' would be quite amusing. :E

Personally, if it's not outrageously abusive I don't really care, and if it is outrageously abusive then there are many available counter-responses. :} It all comes down to the tone, and IME I've rarely found anyone to be genuinely abusive/derogatory, and the few who are are also rude to male employees; ie they're just jerks. I get the feeling that some of these mouthy academics don't spend a lot of time in the real world.

Seldomfitforpurpose
15th May 2014, 10:44
and IME I've rarely found anyone to be genuinely abusive/derogatory.

Which for me cuts right to the heart of this nonsense, that somehow school kids are being disrespectful to female teachers by politely referring to them as miss. It's just comfy shoe wearing gone feckin mad.

Clare Prop
15th May 2014, 14:17
At my school you had to call them "Sister" or "Mother" :suspect: or if they were a "lay" teacher their proper name ie Mrs X, Miss Y or Mr Z.

Believe me "sister" is not what we called the nuns behind their backs. :mad:

rgbrock1
15th May 2014, 14:38
Fox3 questioned:

Who are these idiots?

Oh, that's an easy one Fox3. They are part of the ever-expanding group of the Politically Correct club. (Taken to an extreme, granted.) You know them. They profess offense at anything and everything and outraged by all.

It's also part of the continued effort to "pussify" the West.

Line 'em all up against a wall and shoot 'em.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th May 2014, 16:47
The question was intended as rhetorical.

I do get disappointed with the complete lack of sensible responses to such PC diatribes, e.g.

Sir and Miss is sexist. Sir and Ma'am isn't.

I've called Princess Margaret 'Ma'am', and had the King of Jordan call me 'Sir'. Can't see a reasonable objection to the use of such terms by anyone.
I remember my Officer Training drill sergeant pointing out that someone calling you 'Sir', in itself, does not guarantee any respect, as some could be spelling it C-U-R but pronouncing it 'Sir'...."as you may wish to do yourself on occasion, Gentlemen!".

..and that's it, really. Never been at a private school where Miss was used for anyone other than an unmarried female teacher who had chosen to be called Miss because she didn't like Ma'am. Known a couple who preferred Ms, so that was used.

11Fan
15th May 2014, 16:58
I suppose we could rule out "yo, bitch" as being acceptable as well.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th May 2014, 17:45
The rampant racism and sexism among 'ethnics' does rather put the PC crowd on the spot, doesn't it? :E

flash8
15th May 2014, 23:30
Hmmm I see the good Professor is "Emeritus Professor in the Department of Media, Culture and Language" at the "University" of Roehampton.

That says it all really :)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th May 2014, 23:52
If we are to be generous, we should take the Grauniad rating for Universities;they use QS.

I note my Alma Mater is in the top 20 worldwide. Despite the list going down to 800, Roehampton did not appear*,

which was nice.

*The search engine returned "I think you'll find that's a branch of McD's"

Blacksheep
15th May 2014, 23:56
At our school the teachers were all "Sir" except for the female French teacher who was "Mam'selle".

Captain Dart
16th May 2014, 03:09
Same at mine to their faces, but behind their backs they were Fags (he smoked a lot), der Fuhrer (for his disciplinary style, sorry for Godwin's Law), Spot (blinked a lot behind large glasses), Dinger (for reasons I won't go into), Molly, Tricky Mr. Hickey, Evo and so on. The French teacher was Igor, from her slightly hunched posture, and the principal was Herbie, from his first name.

I would be blown away if anyone here knew the school. Clue: Victoria, Australia

10Watt
16th May 2014, 03:33
That was razor sharp.

tartare
16th May 2014, 03:49
Oh for goodness sake you lot - stop your arguing and have a look at Siti's lawyers!!!
Phwoaaarrr!!!

bosnich71
16th May 2014, 04:31
Cap'n. Dart .... same at my 'school'.... Killer,he threw board rubbers at kids ....Aunty Float,she was rather rotund.... Bandy,she was... Nunky,?... Zombie,never smiled and the French Mistress wasn't Mam'selle as she was a rather portly Taff.
P.s the school is now one of those in Brum which is under investigation for Islamic mischief so I would hazard a guess and say that nick names are no more.Perhaps the Professor should pay a visit.

moosp
16th May 2014, 07:24
Capt Dart, a long shot guess, Geelong Grammar??

Captain Dart
16th May 2014, 07:38
Good try but no. The school was a state high school. It was closed years ago after a 'rationalisation' and now sits derelict.

It was in the southern half of the state, though!

I just remembered a maths teacher we called 'Boston' (Boston Strangler). He used to pull up on miscreants' ties before a clip over the back of the head. This was in the seventies, none of that tolerated in schools now.

As an aside, there was a small pale boy almost albino, skinny and often away sick. his nickname was 'Healthy'. Kids can be so cruel...

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th May 2014, 11:39
This is so exactly right :ok::ok:


Rowan Atkinson - The School Master - YouTube

"Do you have a solicitor, Fox3?"
Heard that more than once

probes
16th May 2014, 12:32
Ma'am is the correct term (and has been for a very long time), not Miss, and was always used in the schools I taught at where the teacher's name was not known.
OMG, that's what they called you, Fox? :eek:

OK, deliberate twisting of what's meant apart - there are so many people who say things just to get attention (not Fox, the original article), so that's probably not a serious issue. Or - who knows? Besides, it's cultural. Around here 'teacher xxx' is the most common and respectful. Regardless of whether xxx is a surname, first name or both. Or just 'teacher'.

- oh, my, that's a 'facilitator' now, how could I forget! :E

panda-k-bear
16th May 2014, 12:51
Killer,he threw board rubbers at kids

We had one of them. Until he became known as 'Smasher' after said board rubber passed through a closed window :} Headmaster (Webbo) was not impressed. Tea, no biscuits.

flash8
16th May 2014, 19:14
Had a Chemistry teacher "MR Crocombe" with an equally feared teacher wife.

As a thirteen year old he once gave me a huge punch in the stomach (can't remember why, in the early 80's you never gave it too much of a thought) but extraordinarily afterwards (probably in a fit of guilt) he gave me A's (up from D's) on every school report despite me being completely crap at chemistry.