VLJ's

[Wally Mk2]

I wonder what happened to all the hype a few years ago when every time you opened up Aviation Mag there was some Co making a VLJ costing say around a $Mill with Joe average pilot being able to drive it, they all pretty much went by the wayside I gather due high cert costs & getting the financial backing. Also wonder how many deposits where made & spent but perhaps lost 4vere with failed designs/projects.

The skies where going to be filled with these Pvt operated VLJ's & every man & his dog was gunna have one.:)

Wmk2

[TBM-Legend]

Well Cirrus flew their prototype the other day. Eclipse is still around too...

[Wally Mk2]

Yeah I heard that recently. I wonder if Cirrus came under the heading VLJ like some of the other makers which promised around a $Mill each, I think Cirrus Jet is well over that most like x2.
Anyway it was all the talk a few years ago, rarely hear of the VLJ these days, cost blow outs maybe, the market wasn't quite there despite all the colour full sized mock-up cabins, GFC & general downturn in some sectors might have meant it was a fad for most.


Wmk2

[jdeakin]

After retiring from JAL, I took a job on a Gulfstream IV owned by one of the 250 richest men in the world. He was, I think, the largest single investor in Eclipse, and we ended up taking delivery on two of them. Ever the sucker, I said "Sure" when he asked me if I'd like to fly them, so I went through the factory training, got the type rating, and also flew the delivery flights on both airplanes, and put in about 120 hours on both - until a minor stroke grounded me.

When everything worked, it was a delight to fly, although not a rocket. Coming up from Cabo (Mexico) to Nogales (Arizona), I had a full load, 5+1 (Three kids and a light woman) at FL370, doing 370 KTAS, burning 60 GPH (265 LPH). Lovely day, glassy smooth, towering Cu here and there, radar showing them all, I recall thinking for all it's problems, it's a damn nice little airplane. No, it's not a GIV, but for a Bonanza pilot, not shabby at all.

And there were problems, sadly. I gently tried to warn the boss a few times, but he was firmly behind Raburn and his hype, and brushed off my concerns.

George Braly (Aero Engineer) did some napkin calcs very early on, and said that as originally equipped (Williams engine) it wouldn't come close to meeting any goals. His numbers were dead on, Raburn's were not.

The re-engine project nearly killed the deal, because they had to damn near re-design the whole airplane for the bigger, heavier engine, and more fuel. FAA played a large part, because they HAD to come in at 6,000 pounds gross, or jump to the transport category - which would have killed it.

About 265 made and delivered, with a long waiting list. Many owners are thoroughly satisfied, and rave about the airplane, but they tend to be on the quiet side. A few owners (and those who got skunked) are much more outspoken, and they've got reason to be.

In the end, Raburn rushed it to market before it was close to ready, because he could see the end coming if he didn't. The end came anyway. Woefully deficient on flight equipment and autopilot functions, many very serious and unpredictable "glitches," the list is long.

I will say, they did some good things in training. I don't think there's ever been a fatal crash, which is remarkable, considering the hours. A couple of hull losses, due to runway excursions, which was predictable, considering the lack of anti-skid.

It would have been a hell of an airplane with a different engine at the beginning, and if they'd chosen wisely on the panel (which required a whole redesign itself). If, if, if, if. <Sigh>

John Deakin

[thborchert]

One should add two things:

1. th e Eclipse was Never available at anywhere near the originally promised price. The guys that bought the assets are now building it again - with antiskid. It is close to 3 million, IIRC.

2. Mr. Raburn ist rumored to have sunk 2 billion dollars of investor money into his little "dream". Yes, with a b.

PT Barnum comes to mind...

[Wally Mk2]

Great story there "JD", kinda says it all in some ways.
COST is usually the killer of any project like this followed by rules (linked with costs obviously) & then the drop off of the initial honeymoon interest any new project has with people whom have lots of $$$ to play with.

The original $1 Mill mark (the bench mark for selling to a PVT Baron Owner) which was mooted for a few of these VLJ's was really not going to be achievable in the long run, rarely does anything come out on budget these days especially if the word 'Aviation' is in the wording.



Wmk2

[jdeakin]

One should add two things:

1. th e Eclipse was Never available at anywhere near the originally promised price. The guys that bought the assets are now building it again - with antiskid. It is close to 3 million, IIRC.

2. Mr. Raburn ist rumored to have sunk 2 billion dollars of investor money into his little "dream". Yes, with a b.

PT Barnum comes to mind...

True, but I think maybe that's a little harsh. PT Barnum was an outright thief, "There's a sucker born every minute," while I don't think Raburn had any intent to swindle. That 10 years of Eclipse aged the man 30 years, and I THINK it left him "less rich." He did have some wonderful ideas, and advanced the art a good deal. Friction Stir Welding, for instance.

Easy for me to say, I had no money on the line.

John Deakin

[Capt Fathom]

The original $1 Mill mark (the bench mark for selling to a PVT Baron Owner)

The price of a new G58 Baron is now US$1.2m :ouch:

[Wally Mk2]

'CF' seems an absurd amount of money for a light piston twin these days but back some years ago when VLJ's where the 'way of the future' you could see that the next step up for a typical Baron owner was the VLJ as they mooted it could be flown by anyone with Baron type experience (just as an Eg) for not too much more in dollar terms.
I recall discussions on various forums/mags about having lots of these fast little things zipping around all over the place OCTA into CTAF's etc being flown by PVT pilots with deep pockets & little experience, that was an issue at the time.


Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

Same old Cirrus story I guess.... single engine VLJ, but will have CAPS I assume.

I don't think we will see that many of them gracing our skies.

[jdeakin]

I recall discussions on various forums/mags about having lots of these fast little things zipping around all over the place OCTA into CTAF's etc being flown by PVT pilots with deep pockets & little experience, that was an issue at the time.
The one thing that Eclipse had figured out was the "Deep Pockets & Little Experience" pilots. For the first time in 39,000 hours and a lot of check rides (taken and given), this was a no-s*** serious program, and if any of the instructors decided you were not qualified, you did NOT get the rating, there was NO alternative, and you did not get to fly your airplane. If you came back again, another time, you were almost guaranteed to fail again. They were definitely looking for TALENT and ABILITY ONLY. Nothing really special, but NO HAMBURGERS.

I had a female training partner with low time in the sim, and had to hustle to keep up with her. I'd have passed her with flying colors, if it had been up to me, and Eclipse agreed. The type rating was not the last step, either. Eclipse had a small cadre of "Mentors" who rode with customers after the rating ride for up to 100 hours, and if they said no dice, you were OUT. A rather large number of people got early airplanes, but could not qualify, and had to sell them. Some high-time airline pilots, too. Take some pilot with 30,000 hours in jets, long accustomed to another pilot helping him out, and dump him in the Eclipse where it's ALL up to him, and a lot of them get lost, and behind.

I came along right at the transition point. Before I got there, high-time jet pilots COULD take their airplane and go solo after the rating ride, "no mentor." While I was there, a couple of such high-timers did that, and got into trouble, nearly ruining the record. I applied for it, but they called me in, told me about the problems they'd had, and said, "Sorry, you'll have to take a mentor." I'll admit to some annoyance, but he spent a full day's flying with me, from Albuquerque, to Las Vegas, to Camarillo CA, then a night IFR trip across LAX to Santa Ana, with NO help, and continuous problems. Final test was a dead-stick (simulated double-engine failure) about five miles out on an oddball pattern. "Stick it on not before 500' and not later than 1500'." Got lucky, and I was good to go.

Raburn laid down the law according to Raburn on training, and hired instructors to do it. Like I said, NO fatalities, and just a few minor accidents. They did a LOT wrong, made a LOT of mistakes, but training was not one of them.

John Deakin

[Wally Mk2]

'JD' am sure that's the case with the Eclipse way of thinking but other manufacturers at the time may not be thinking along the same lines. I mean at the end of the day these VLJ's where commercial ventures building & selling them therefore making money.

It's a double edged sword with the way Eclipse handle this inexperience thingy. On one hand they want & for good reason/s I might add to protect their products reputation by way of reducing the chances of Pilot Average balling up one of their machines at the end of the Rwy due inexperience but on the other hand if it's that difficult to get thru the 'process' of owning one of these things then there may not be enough of a market left to sustain continuous production. I mean it's not a Space Shuttle, Jesus!

Even highly experienced pilots have been known to fly a perfectly serviceable machine into the side of a hill so weeding out the dollar rich cowboys seeking a status symbol by way of an Eclipse for Eg isn't fool proof & they could end up with............we've run out of the very few "WE" considered good enuf for our product.

Anyway it's their cricket set if they only wanna accept Space Shuttle type drivers for their products they can do so whenever they wish:-)

Wmk2

[hawkerxp]

I have flow a number of the "VLJ's" and larger corporate jets.

They are a pleasure to fly... they really do just fly like a big 172 however you can get yourself into more trouble quicker.

DO A TYPE RATING IN THE SIMULATOR - This is the number one rule, and it wouldn't hurt to do a recurrent or two.

As it has been noted there are a few performance issues like runways, climb gradients and hot and high performance that you may want to take a course on while you are in the USA doing your type rating. Flight Safety and CAE run all sorts of add on courses that will help.

As for the single pilot thing, it is not such a big deal. The aircraft are designed around this with electronic check lists, fadec engines and simple systems (Fuel, Hyd, Pressurisation ext).

They biggest problem is when people start trying to use them for what they were not designed to do. A Mustang for example is a great Sydney - Gold Coast aeroplane with the Wife/Kids or Mistress/Golf Clubs, not a Melbourne - Perth (With a couple of fuel stops) with 5 passengers for a business trip.

For someone with little or no experience I would suggest you may want to spend some time with someone who can show you the ropes after you have done your type rating, it is important that the person you choose isn't your mate who is now flying for an airline (no offence guys) but someone who is operating these types of aircraft all the time, then you can fly with your mate who probably has some great advice to add to your knowledge. Also it may pay to get some advice about Maintenance and programs available as it is a little bit different to the normal GA type of stuff. You may also want to get some advice on RVSM, PBN and ADSB approvals and what not (I am more than happy to give advice in this matter in exchange for beer).

If you are flying around in your Kingair, Conquest, C421, Navajo or any other high performance twin the conversion is a lot easier than you think. My advice is to go an buy one...

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Bit like the Lear Fan, Bede Jet, Flying Car-plenty of dreamers and schemers in this business who get sucked into the smell of JetA-1 in the morning!

[thorn bird]

Now I had always imagined that the vast majority of the thousands of citation jets in the 525/560 range were flown by owner pilots.

The FAA seems to have realised that over regulation has put a severe brake on GA development and is now actively examining ways to relieve that burden, by as much as 50% I have read. This initiative could be the catalyst to revitalise the VLJ market.
Pity our regulator couldn't take a leaf from the FAA book all they did was heap a whole stack of restrictions and very expensive requirements on VLJ,s.