PBN compliance costs

[sillograph]

Has anyone got a rough cost of compliance for the upcoming PBN.

Quoted figures of $25000 to $30000 for 2 tso146 gnss fully installed.

Maybe a group of aircraft owners should get together and put a tender out.

Say 25 aircraft, surely the price would come down.

This could work for the ADSB transponders as well.

[Old Akro]

The numbers are pretty easy. Secondhand C146a Garmin 430's are about $6,500 ea. New GTN 650's are about $12k. Plus, you probably need a new grey code altitude encoder. That's maybe $500. Plus you need new co-ax cable because WAAS requires a different impedence cable. Call that $100. And an ADS-B transponder - circa $3,000.

Depending on whether you use new GPS boxes or old, there is $17k to $28k of hardware.

You will then probably require some uniquely Australian / uniquely CASA engineering orders for the installation. Probably add another $1k.

Then finally is the install, which depending on panel requires a radio stack relay, some disassembly of the interior to install new cable and installation of new antennae. I'm guessing, but I reckon that's a minimum of 2 days labour - maybe 5. So the installation is going to be $3K to $5k.

There is no real volume pricing benefit.

All of this for an airframe that is likely to be worth $100k. I can see a lot of guys quitting IFR. Which is probably CASA's real objective.

If we GA had any sort of robust representation we would be lobbying for engineering orders to be not required for routine non-structural work like fitting radios and for GST to be waived on equipment required to upgrade to PBN.

[Hasherucf]

Nice thinking but you will find that avionics installing companies aren't making much on the actual units. In our case we encourage the customers to pay direct so we don't have to tie up cash.

20k - 30k seems middle of the road. Priced a King air upgrade with the UNS about 60k and Collin TDR90's about 25k each.

One suggestion is a Blind GPS like Free Flights 1201 to save on GPS upgrades.

All depends on what hardware you are upgrading. Good luck finding 25 aircraft with similar hardware requirements.

We are installing and near capacity at doing that. Don't need extra work thanks :) Even at current install rates I believe the Australian fleet will fall short of the deadline. Get in early people! Remember trying to buy a 406mhz ELT install kit just before the deadline?

[Hasherucf]

I would say the Avionics Manufacturers are rubbing their hands together. Plenty of work generated with CAO 100.5 and just normal work for the avionics shops. :)

[Dangly Bits]

Airservices were supposed to pay for them weren't they? Saves them millions in new radar installations!

Why are we paying now?

[peterc005]

CASA published a list of TSO 129 GPS units that are acceptable if they are an existing installation.

I have a KLN 94, which is on the list so it's one less thing to worry about.

The Bendix King KT 74 is looking like a good bet for a Mode S transponder.

[underfire]

sillograph,

Can I ask what PBN you are referring to?

[Old Akro]

Peter 005

I think you are on the wrong tram.

C129a is acceptable for PBN IF you have another navigation source. C129a is NOT acceptable for ADS-B which requires C146a.

Australia is the only country in the world mandating ADS-B for ALL IFR flights at all levels in all airspace.

The KT74 is one of about 3 available ADSB-ES transponders (Garmin, King & Trig). But it requires a C146a GPS input to be compliant. But, I don't think they have started shipping them yet. I think its still a couple of months off.

So, your KLN94 has to go if you want to fly IFR. It will need to be replaced by a Garmin GNS430, GTN650, GTN750, Avidyne IFD 440/540 or King KSN770. All of these will require a panel relay, new wiring and new antennae for you.

[thorn bird]

Does anyone see a rise in the number of those Phantom aircraft
Sneeking around out West??

[peterc005]

Old Akro

CASA does "Not recommended for any new installations but may remain in service" the KLN94 GPS for new installs, but it is acceptable for existing installations as a data source for the ADSB GPS signal. In certain cases a TSO 129 GPS is allowed:

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/021/021c45.pdf

I recall reading a reference where the Bendix-King GPS output message format has become the industry standard for other manufacturers too.

The avionics LAME has said he won't sign off my Narco AT150 transponder next time it's due for a check so I'm planning on the KT 74 as the best upgrade option. I'll use the KLN 94 GPS to provide the signal for the KT 74 transponder.

With all of the Mode S stuff coming the testing tolerances are apparently tighter, which will force owners to upgrade their transponders, even if they don't really need Mode S. From memory, transponders need to be tested every two years.

[Old Akro]

The ongoing acceptability of these combinations may be determined by future
legislation. Operators utilising these equipment configurations are urged to
update.

A fundamental tenant of ADS-B is that the GPS signal be from a C146a unit.

8.2.1 The ADS-B transmitter needs to comply with the minimum performance standards
detailed in RTCA/DO-260, DO-260A or DO-260B Paragraph 2.2 as appropriate for the aircraft
type.


If you look up DO-260 you will see that it specifies C146a.

There is a project running to consider allowing C129a, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd start saving.

[Old Akro]

With all of the Mode S stuff coming the testing tolerances are apparently tighter, which will force owners to upgrade their transponders

Mode-s is quite not the same as ADS-B. There are Mode S transponders that will be redundant as soon as ADS-B becomes mandatory.

Currently, if you want to fly IFR anywhere in Australia at any level in Feb 2017 you will require a Mode S ES ADS-B transponder with a C146a GPS.

We will be the only country in the world to require ADS-B for all IFR flight at all levels in all airspace.

[peterc005]

My plane is NVFR and will never be IFR, so I'm not really concerned.

My reading of the CASA documentation is that the KLN94 and KT73 is acceptable in my situation, so I still hope to go with that.

With a bit of luck I can get the old Narco AT150 thru one more inspection and hopefully the equipment will be less expensive then and an Avionics LAME easier to find.

[topdrop]

Airservices were supposed to pay for them weren't they? Saves them millions in new radar installations! Not quite right - the airlines originally agreed to a delay in passing on the savings to the airlines, which would pay for all Oz acft to be equipped. Guess what, the airlines changed their mind(s).

[Old Akro]

Avionics LAME easier to find.

Or one that doesn't put self tappers though wiring looms, lose radio logs, leave screwdrivers in the tail, ......

What a sweet dream.

For NVFR you don't need ADSB at all. If the old Narco is sick, put a KT 76 in. It's interchangeable with the KT74 and the KT 76a ( or even 76c) are readily available secondhand.

[LeadSled]

Not quite right - the airlines originally agreed to a delay in passing on the savings to the airlines,

Folks,
Quite wrong, completely wrong, not only did the airlines never agree to any form of subsidy to GA, they were adamant in their negotiations with AsA, that AsA savings from ADS-B would be passed along to airlines in reduced charges.
The idea of "somebody else" subsidization GA installations was always nonsense, to get the mugs on the hook, like the then board of AOPA.
There is a vast amount on this subject in pprune archives.
Tootle pip!!

[sillograph]

Yeah, you could use the free flight standalone gps for the transponder but thats really money going onto only one item with no other benefit, I would rather pay a bit more and end up with at least one 430w then I get a new radio and nav or possibly you could use a 400w so no radio or nav with that one.

On the plus side the avionics guys are going to be able to do an instal after all this with their eyes closed.

[sillograph]

One thing I would recommend is when you get your Engineering order done for the transponder install, get the guys to include on the order your 146 GPS that you will be putting in at a later date. At least thats a small saving by not having to go back and get another engineering order……?