EK Pay review

[lospilotos]

OK, so now the profit share is done and dusted. Time for next topic, pay review.

What do you make of these numbers?:

http://www.dsc.gov.ae/Reports/Consumer%20Price%20Index%202014.pdf

http://www.dsc.gov.ae/Reports/Consumer%20Price%20Index%202013.pdf

[harry the cod]

BW

The priority should always be on decent basic pay rise. This stays with us and forms the basis for future pay reviews and Company contributions to provident fund and profit share calculations. 3200-3500dhs is the sum profit share for GR2's and GR1's this year thanks to basic pay of around 4500-5500. If their flight pay was taken into account, the profit share would be almost double. A purser will collect around 5500 max. An extreme example perhaps but nonetheless a valid one in my opinion.

I do accept that rents and house values have risen at an alarming rate within the last 18-24 months as have school fees and general living costs including grocery items and clothes. These increased costs must be taken into account when considering an increase in the respective allowance especially for many grades, including cabin crew, who have no option but to move out when they marry and have family.

As pilots it's a different story. The Company provided us accommodation and the choice to rent or buy was ours. We knew the risks and some guys took it. For those that bought, well done. Those that rent.....good luck. Either way, as Tom Cruise famously shouted....."SHOW ME THE MONEY!"

Harry

[Desert Dawg]

@Harry

Was it not Cuba Gooding Jr. who shouted "SHOW ME THE MONEY..!!!"..?

Just sayin'......:p:p

[pilotrob23]

Actually, they both shouted it. If you want to join in with them, go for it!

[Mach_Krit]

shouldn´t today be the day??

[lospilotos]

Last year it was announced the Wednesday after the results were announced. So yes, it could (should?) be today...

[Silky]

Baby 'show me the money' (Jerry Maguire) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/jJJY1C2gFxQ)

Show me the money!!

[VijayMallya]

When was the last time you guys had a decent pay hike?

[Mach_Krit]

dont ask...

[FUSE PLUG]

4pm on a Thursday. It looks like no announcement this week...

[BigGeordie]

If it isn't out today it won't make the May salary.

[Woopoops]

They often do it after 5 p.m. on Thursday to let it sink in over weekend.:=

[Rim-job]

Past 5pm and no pay review?? WTF??

[Tight Seat]

I see that as good news. 'They' want it to be a big announcement not just a Thursday push-and-run.

[Fart Master]

VERY doubtful. But hope springs eternal...

[BANANASBANANAS]

Weren't we expecting good news at the big announcement about profit share?

[donpizmeov]

But please keep going the extra mile etc etc etc.


The Don

[Ynot]

The Qantas news must have forced a pay review re think meeting of the bean counters so they can do exactly that...count their beans post QF redundancy announcement.

[helen-damnation]

QF guys wil mostly go to China for Oz bases, commuting rosters

No DECs or SOs accepted by EK so FO only. Not much to gain for the beanies!

[fatbus]

I recall payraise being done in May showing up on June pay Profit share being announced in April showing up on the May pay


But I'm sure some of our EK astronauts proclaim to be better informed

[JAARule]

No news in the email YET because "the fleet" are still out door-knocking on Thursday night in an unprecedented display of good relations and high spirits, delivering the good news personally to all 3800 or whatever pilots face to face. Caring and sharing and paying big bucks all over again to show how much they love their pilots.


God I love this place.


Whitey, that's called irony. Try to keep up.

[hotduke]

Does that mean the raise is happenong but not for May?

[jack schidt]

Profit share = GIVE

TAKE = announce "any" increase later than the 14th so that it is a month less paid at that rate as it will be paid a month later.

[BobDole]

Don't fool yourself into thinking the announcement date has any impact on what date the new rates take effect. If they want the new pay amount to start this month it will.

[thehonourablefong]

BD

I'd probably go with the opposite that no matter when the announcement comes, if they only want pay to increase from July, it will.

Sadly...

Fong

[Dropp the Pilot]

Your first revised pay will be on the May pay check. In very, very rare circumstances the new pay is only revealed a few months later but the amount is then back-dated to May.

You have actually been earning your new salary for the last three weeks, you just don't know what it is yet.....

[Gulf News]

Fatbus

I recall payraise being done in May showing up on June pay Profit share being announced in April showing up on the May pay


If you go into HR Direct and look at your history of contract adjustment letters you will see that the pay review is consistently dated in may. Don't have to be an astronaut to figure that out.

You have actually been earning your new salary for the last three weeks, you just don't know what it is yet.....

That is because they need you to go the extra mile but dont want to demoralize anyone before it is absolutely necessary:{.

[lospilotos]

Fatbus
That is because they need you to go the extra mile but dont want to demoralize anyone before it is absolutely necessary:{.

Of course they have already decided on the new pay scales. If they are to be demoralizing it would have made more sense to announce it before the profit share announcement.

[fliion]

Starting to hear some 'wild' rumors on pay ...coming from a lot of angles.

Not holding my breath.

f.

[glofish]

Care to share? After all this is a rumour network, isn't it?

We can all not hold our breath here ......

[pilotrob23]

Tons of rumors. Like the 30%, but with flying upped to 100 hours a month? It is all over the board, you can only speculate and wait at this point. Isn't that the fun part this time of year? :bored:

[fliion]

Heard same as above... Except it would be voluntary.

That is those who want to stay on current would ...and those who wanted the 100 hrs per month with associated 10k pay raise could.

To nullify any suggestion that it was imposed.

Interesting.

Do NOT SHOOT the rumor spreader pls...it's just a rumor.

f.

[SOPS]

I heard the same thing.

[BigGeordie]

I'm doing 92 hours now, so not much difference there. Or do you mean 1,200 a year? Not that I want to give them any ideas... (And I can't see the GCAA going for that.)

[Rather Be Skiing]

Well, they have left a vacuum and it is being filled with speculation that runs the spectrum: crappy to great news coming.

Give a couple of pilots a few hours in cruise and voila, a new rumour is born! Before long it morphs into 'fact'.

If you are at work today, start a new one and see how long it takes to get back to you! It's good to have a hobby!

[Mach_Krit]

100hrs per month? no thanks. I prefer quality of life and family time.

[ekwhistleblower]

100 hours a month, a modest pay rise but free coffin:ok:

[Rim-job]

100 hours/month .... that's a recipe for disaster. And a quick way to the grave!!

[HighLow]

90 hrs a month
100 hrs a month
200 hrs a month (in jest)

Apart from the obvious extra flying in that month,
You guys and Girls would still be capped to the GCAA maximum of 900hr a year

[Mach_Krit]

a lot of speculation and no news yet. They are keeping it interesting this year. FFS just send it out.

[The Outlaw]

And a big smoking hole in the ground with the famous tail emblem and the 24/7 BBC/CNN/NBC news coverage of how and why this happened...do you think there would be a shortage of people who would step up and say "I told them so"?

I highly doubt that is going to happen....

[flareflyer]

It seems very quiet.......
19th of may and nothing yet.....
Interesting......

[Mr Good Cat]

There will only be a pay review if the pay is going to be reviewed, right?

So if they're not changing it then why should there be a review? They don't HAVE TO give a pay rise every year. Contract's are not legally binding here, right?

[thrustidle74]

I think even if it's only a step increase we should have got a contact adjustment letter, if I'm not mistaken.
There's something fishy going on and I hope it'll be good for us and worth the wait.
And the scary thing is you are right Mr GC, contracts mean nothing in this part of the world.

[BANANASBANANAS]

If I was a conspiracy theorist it would not be difficult to link lack of news on pay rise, runway closure and extra mile in the same sentence.

I hope you are right thrustidle74 but I am neither holding my breath nor going the extra mile until I find out.

[Outatowner]

There will probably be something handed out this year to the great unwashed (us) but if they announce it today, tomorrow or next week, who cares, we'll have a year on the new level and get paid the same amount anyway. In the meantime standing under the balcony waiting for the master to throw a few crumbs is not very becoming.


Cat, they'll have a pay review this year, just like every year. The result of the review might be that the T&Cs are "just right for the industry" and "very competitive" and "generous" and an adjustment of the salary steps is not required. And other sh*t they've said in past years.

Separately, their "review" might also find that there is no need to award the increment step this year. Ask some of the old timers if this has happened before.

If you have a look at the fine print, the increment step is not guaranteed.


I have no idea WTF the outlaw is talking about.

[harry the cod]

Outatowner

Although technically correct, the step increments are very much a gentleman's agreement and those that have come from airlines with salary scales have always had them paid out, regardless of other salary increases. It should never, ever be considered part of a 'salary' negotiation and to recently start using it as such is deplorable.

For it to be accepted that it's at the discretion of the Company is bad enough. To have that principle accepted by a DSVP who's come from BA, an airline with automatic payscale steps, makes it even more disgraceful. Come on Capt. AS, show some integrity.

Still, let's wait until the review is announced, we may be pleasantly surprised!

Harry

[glofish]

Agree 100% Harry. :D

But one thing you learn quite rapidly in the sandpit is that integrity is the first thing you will miss here. But it's their culture.

What saddens me now is the decision to increasing the bond. It's basically an admittance to failure (why, see above), but the wrong remedy!
Just fighting the symptom while the disease silently continues to grow ....... :ooh:

[thatwasclose]

The last post . That's not appropriate . Capitalism is not cultural . I have seen westerners screw people just as much as everyone else . I know of a gulf airline where a long time employees wife had cancer . He had died over a year before and the insurance had lapsed . They paid for everything. Don't forget we westerners are here mainly because are own countries airlines screwed us or offered crap . I want my pay rise . Hell I really want more time on the ground . I am tired . Am sure you are the same , just don't lose sight of the fact all companies want to screw us . Capitalism is the exploitation of labour . We are the labour .

[Al Murdoch]

Never a truer word said.

[glofish]

Capitalism is not cultural

Right you are, but integrity is. Therefore your example shoots into void.

Capitalism is only an economic system. In the West it works with some ethics and rules that emanate from a social culture called democracy. It is mainly paired with the division of power into three pillars. Democratic rights should therefore be an important counterweight to the inherent excesses of capitalism.
Today in the West we can see what happens when this system gets out of bounds, especially in the financial sector. There is however a slight chance that the people eventually can correct it. Integrity means to integrate and to bring together, so these rights are essential to coerce a system back into its original design.

With cultural systems in certain parts of the world capitalism is an inherent failure from the beginning, it is a tool to tighten the grip. Every comparison with the West ("you get screwed there as well") is a cynical one. Exactly because there is no counterweight. A counterweight is the worst nightmare of certain "leaders". Therefore integrity is the first victim.

Try not giving the annual promised increase, even if it is not absolutely contractual, at a legacy carrier (EK likes to be seen as that), try even not to compensate inflation, try to fiddle the blatant inflation and try to sell a second half year worse than the first (a never seen in aviation the last 20 years) and see how far you get in a democracy as to compared to this part of the world and you get the meaning of integrity.

My biggest deception here was however not even the lack of it by local culture, it was the selling of a lot of bs by westeners with a look of a Basset, knowing that they are lying when they open their mouthes. You tend to believe them as a rookie, only to discover later that they are corrupted to the bone. Integrity, my @$$.

[thatwasclose]

Glofish, this is the wrong forum for us to have a debate on it. We all think our own cultures are the best. Ask a Jew about western integrity if you are European . Ask an older black man about it if you are American . We can talk about it on a layover. In the meantime where is my pay raise !

[harry the cod]

thatwasclose

I have no idea where it is but one thing is for certain, I know where it isn't. It is not in this months pay as last entries closed on 18th!

Harry

[Panther 88]

thatwasclose

I have no idea where it is but one thing is for certain, I know where it isn't. It is not in this months pay as last entries closed on 18th!

Harry


Another reason to think they are trying to sort something out. Too easy to say, "boys and girls....that's it. No soup for you." Gotta stay optimistic. OTOH.....:*

[White Knight]

I have no idea where it is but one thing is for certain, I know where it isn't. It is not in this months pay as last entries closed on 18th!


Maybe payroll know what we don't! Just 'cos WE haven't been informed doesn't mean that the 'rise' won't be paid this month. It's always been added to the May pay!

[Shaky Hands]

Heard from a colleague whose friend flew with a guy who knows a man who heard from someone who knows someone in HR, anyway Pay Review email is apparently being sent to us on the 22nd May, tomorrow. Content not known. Fingers crossed.

[pilotrob23]

I talked to that guys cousin, and heard the same thing. Now hearing 8% for Captains, 6% for First Officers. I don't know who these friends of cousins are, but they are really in the know!

[motojet]

I heard 20% for Americans to prevent attrition and 3% for everyone else. :8

[Woopoops]

My guess, we'll be lucky to get anything more than 3%, but we'll get a good increase in allowances simply because it'll be going back where it came from. I know, I know, it won't be fair to everybody, I mean people with grown ups or no kids and people in the company accommodation. But then the hiring problem we'll probably there to stay, at least until next pay review.

[CAYNINE]

I hear a 1000 hrs has been approved and no overtime at all, offset by a large one off increase in basic.....

Do we start digging holes for the dead 330 guys....?:sad:

[BigGeordie]

It would have to be a huge increase in basic for that idea to have any appeal.

[fatbus]

Most 330 guys are nowhere near the max hours , just max night turns

[Saltaire]

This is a little frightening - another thursday afternoon, not a word of ANY pay increase whatsoever. I believe if there is no announcement by the end of the day, the April/May pay will not change. Are we honestly having another year of NO pay increase with the rate of inflation in DXB :mad:

[lowstandard]

Dubai?s Housing Index Pushes Inflation Rate to Five-Year High - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-22/dubai-s-housing-index-pushes-inflation-rate-to-five-year-high.html)

[Eau de Boeing]

Still no decision, just confirmed by e-mail....

[flareflyer]

We have the news!!!!
as of today no decision has been taken.......
Unbelievable........:ugh:

[Jolly Foreigner]

They must be going that 'extra mile' to come up with something in June then

:ok:

[Rather Be Skiing]

Still no decision, just confirmed by e-mail....

Yup. Is the tone of that email to prepare us for no increase? Or is it just me and my cynical attitude?

[Dropp the Pilot]

The sudden availability of 300 desperate Qantas pilots will be at play here in one form or another.

[Flyguy777]

Unbelievable that they can set this years profit target without even knowing what they intend to pay their employees. I suspect that the underwhelming reaction to the 3 week bonus has made them reconsider what was likely to be an underwhelming pay review.... I guess time will tell?!?

[Saltaire]

This is a little worrying. Every year - same story - and planned well in advance.

I agree with some kind of modification of the pay structure. Should be interesting either way...

[dustyprops]

I smell a bombshell coming here folks, and not for the good.

[Oldaircrew]

The cynic in me is suggesting that they will wait until after the runway repairs to tell us we're getting nothing to ensure that we keep going the extra mile.

[Jolly Foreigner]

Might have to wait until June 29th when the habibis can run from the daylight and Costa for a month or so.:hmm:

[kennedy]

Rumour going round at the moment is not great,

10,000 dhm increase, good, but

Flight pay removed (around 5000 on average PCM, loss)
Overtime limit removed! Block hours up to FTL limits, 100hrs per 28days, but that could mean upto 115/120 hrs as you can start a flight eg 16.5hrs to SFO on 99.5 hrs in your 28 days and still be legal!

Using 30 day month, 12 'free' hours productivity now for the company, 12 x600dhms =7200 dhms loss

Also talk of 1000 hrs per rolling yr total!

Bend over boys (and girls), here comes the rogering!

[fatbus]

Does this mean more pilots heading for CHina Southern? ,,,,,,, hangon , how many have in fact left? Also have all the Amercains left already ? 3% if we re lucky! their going to say , loudly, if you don't like it leave. Hope I'm wrong!

[CAYNINE]

BigGeordie and Fatty, Kennedy is prob as close to the mark as can be.

But watch this space...... can't wait for the venting session on here

[thehonourablefong]

Fatbus,

I think you're right about people leaving but I think what is swinging decisions is actually the numbers joining...considering one of their grand plans was to recruit heavily onto the 330 this year in order to send us night-turn experts onto the 380, there seems to be a distinct lack of 330 courses on the list.

As long as they only want 'bus and Boeing guys, then I think they're getting stretched. Don't see them being at breaking point yet though, there seem to be plenty of guys filling 380/777 courses at the moment.

[falconeasydriver]

Ben-Hur Your Eyes Are Full of Hate, Forty-One - YouTube


KEPP ROWING SLAVES!!!!…….:E:}

[Rim-job]

Seriously...

They have 12 months to think about these things and now they need more time.... :ugh:

The email today mentioning that any salary increase will be retro paid as of May 1 is great, but why do they need this long to come to an agreement on our salary. Shouldn't this all have been discussed and agreed upon prior to announcing this years Profit Share target? How can you determine a profit target without knowing what your staff payroll will be.

Something isn't adding up...

[helen-damnation]

Backdated to 1 May. The financial year is April to March so is this normal or another steal from our pockets?

[thrustidle74]

That's it! Had enuf!
I'm officially looking for a new job,back home, where I can breathe in the fresh air, feel the wind,cold and the rain not the sand and dust plus all this BS comes with it. Not a place where we feel that somebody always trying to kill us on the roads.
I'll never take an expat job again. China, even if they offer me 50K a month never ever....
I rather take a pay cut,fly a 733 or even a kite but at least I'm happy!

[Nedul]

Is it not clear folks that the delay in announcement is likely because the changes will be legislative......waiting on the GCAA to approve some ridiculous hair brained slave driving FTL scheme in return for a carrot that isn't quite as good as it seems??? I can't work anymore hrs, otherwise the work life balance moves way off centre.
Likewise my Aunts cousin tells me recruitment have gone straight to the top to advise of lack of interest/suitability. The answer was "we'll sort it.....don't lower the standard!"
If I didn't mention it.....my Aunt knows some great people......:ugh:

[Mach_Krit]

just add another **** ontop of the pile. sick and tired of this place.:mad::mad:

rant over.

[jidder]

I think you have hit the nail on the head! They don't want to demotivate the already " lead swinging flight deck ". So make sure they keep dangling the carrot whilst the NRR goes on :suspect:

J

[Buckshot16]

Well EK colleagues, the erosion will continue, you have/will been/be pushed to your personal/family limit and you will need to make that decision. All the best and good luck to you all.

[KanyouEast]

Rumour going round at the moment is not great,

10,000 dhm increase, good, but

Flight pay removed (around 5000 on average PCM, loss)
Overtime limit removed! Block hours up to FTL limits, 100hrs per 28days, but that could mean upto 115/120 hrs as you can start a flight eg 16.5hrs to SFO on 99.5 hrs in your 28 days and still be legal!

Using 30 day month, 12 'free' hours productivity now for the company, 12 x600dhms =7200 dhms loss

Also talk of 1000 hrs per rolling yr total!

Bend over boys (and girls), here comes the rogering!

Well, if they're really that dumb-ass, it's time to dust off the CV...

+10 000 AED

-5 000 flight pay

-6 500 overtime for 10 hours ( to 100 )

-1 200 give or take, step increase

Equals 2 700 AED LESS than I was earning for a genuine life of a labourer.....

Think hard about it if you have applied.:ugh::ugh:

[jack schidt]

One thing is certain. The delay is not because they are worried that the deal being brokered is not good enough for us, far from it.

[TangoUniform]

Really...we are being a little too pilot centric here. There are thousands awaiting word from upon high. Thousands world wide not just the 3700 rowers. But I would love to see the repercussions if all of the office dwellers were made to stay until 1630 everyday to become more efficient. But we know the heartbeat of this place is the IT department, and they hold all departments hostage. Won't see them increasing their productivity for a few pieces of silver.


TU

[go46ball]

F..., I'm out. Say no more. Enough has been said. Or not said for that matter:mad:

[The Outlaw]

I find it difficult to believe that educated upper managers are lost on the negative effects of such actions...should they prove to be true, especially at a time when they need to both retain the experience they have and attract quality people.

Reading between the lines and despite all the "hype", I suspect there are bigger problems than we are aware of at hand.

What goes up, comes down...perhaps sooner than we might think.

I'm not holding out for any news from the higher floors that would reverse my decision to move to "greener" pastures where your contributions are made because you have the company interests at heart, not because you are legislated to do so while being stripped of your dignity and self respect.

[BeCareful]

Habibis, as long as people keep lining up at the door, the beatings will continue.

When our masters start parking planes due to pilots telling them to go f**k themselves, that's when things will change.

Until that happens... EXPO2020!!!! WOOOOHOOOO!! HAMDULLAH!!!! STUNNING 450 sq.ft. 1 BD IN MARINA FOR RENT... ONLY 250,000 AED - ONE CHEQUE.

[Mr Good Cat]

The reason for the delay is obvious.

They are not going to announce something negative during the period of runway closures when they need everyone to pull together and go the extra mile... If they lose goodwill during this period it could seriously screw the operation up.

It's the same reason we got a small bonus when we didn't even meet the target - they can't afford the loss of goodwill from ANY staff until the 20th July.

[The Outlaw]

I expect their review involves some rubber stamping and approvals from outside.

[palm]

Absolutely correct, this time be prepare to swallow the biggest carrot ever...It time to fresh up our CV as this place is dead and forever.....:eek:

It is so obvious that something horrible is on this way:D:D

[BigGeordie]

I'm sure the "cost neutral pay adjustment" is sorted, otherwise they couldn't calculate a profit share target. Only thing that makes sense is waiting for regulatory approval for some sort of changes (1,000hrs? 6 days off a month, specially for the 330 guys.) As has been said, they have had a year to sort this but you can't rush the GCAA.

Whatever the GCAA rubber stamp it won't be for our benefit.

[donpizmeov]

Can whoever made up the rumour about the extra 10k for selling your life change it to "an extra 10k to the base captain salary". As I don't think those on the top salary scale will be happy to receive an increase of 2/3rds the percentage as a newbie capt.

The Don

[Al Murdoch]

Is it possible that they are waiting to see how many people bang in their notice once the bonus has been paid?

[jack schidt]

Al, quite probable...

..I would say that they have a deal or 3 ready to go and are waiting to see what happens and throw the appropriate carrot/deal out there as appropriate.

[Emma Royds]

Isn't it perhaps as simple as AAR refusing to give us what has been proposed to him and discussions are still on going until they can see eye to eye?

If this is the case then with all the childish face saving antics that the locals love, they will make the wrapping paper look nice but after a closer look, the present itself will be pretty 5hite.

[Mr Good Cat]

10,000 dhm increase, good, but

Flight pay removed (around 5000 on average PCM, loss)
Overtime limit removed! Block hours up to FTL limits, 100hrs per 28days, but that could mean upto 115/120 hrs as you can start a flight eg 16.5hrs to SFO on 99.5 hrs in your 28 days and still be legal!

Highly doubt this will be the case.

If anything it would be a lower salary in return for much higher flight pay a la Ryanair.

That way they reward high productivity and discourage sickness.

Anyway, time will tell I suppose.

[thehonourablefong]

Have a look at HR Direct...on the intro page (at 'Proceed to HR Direct'), there's a picture of HH with 'I cannot thank you enough for your contribution. I promise to keep investing in your future'. I know it's pretty sketchy evidence for anything, but that seems a little unusual doesn't it?

Anyone think maybe that, pay review aside (cue tangent from thread), there is a hint of changes coming from the top? Could be the start of a charm offensive. Not sure how much will be charm and how much will be offensive of course...

[BANANASBANANAS]

Similar message at the bottom of May pay statement.

[Ynot]

...an EK recruitment roadshow banner just appeared on PPRUNE...(SIN JNB roadshows)...was told by someone who knows someone in Recruitment (here we go again) that those roadshows have been a failure as of late....anybody knows differently?

[Craggenmore]

Should the annual step increase be reflected in this months pay slip..?

All the other years have except this one.

[donpizmeov]

One would have hoped so Craggen, but its still under review by the muppets ... Oh I mean grown ups.

Go that extra mile.

The don

[ekwhistleblower]

Isn't it perhaps as simple as AAR refusing to give us what has been proposed to him and discussions are still on going until they can see eye to eye?

AAR would like all crew to have 8 days off a month like him. He has travelled 92 hrs in First and doesn't know what the big deal is! :ok:

[JAARule]

The purser on my flight this morning says they (all the cabin) got a very similar email stating that salary and accommodation allowances are still under review, with a picture of a bunch of fingertips held together, turned upwards.


He thought it was because they will hold out the accomm fund until after the current cycle thus putting off an expense for a short term. This doesn't quite make full financial sense but then a lot of what they do makes little financial sense - eg the entire A380 program!

[Rim-job]

JAA...

Give it a rest mate!! We pack the planes, the people love them and we no doubt make money!! So please, stop your whining regarding the A380 program.

You sound like a jealous kid at times. Get over it... it's a money maker just like the B777. Look no further then our yearly profits. And if you try and say all the profit comes from the B777 fleet... I'll question your intelligence even more then I am right now.

Rant over. Back to the topic please...

[CAYNINE]

yeah what he said!!!!

[jack schidt]

RIM......You da man......well said.:D

[JAARule]

Rim, calm down princess, it was a joke, I didn't think anyone would actually bite... should I go back and put a smiley in it for you?


Jesus, why is it you can take a shot at any type or fleet but it's always the 380 guys who get their undies in the biggest twist as a result? Why so sensitive and defensive?? Was that a tender nerve?


Nice to see you using "we" and "our" - part of the team hey... good to see!

[haveago]

They all go up and down.. Enough said!!

[kingpost]

Just to calm the waters about increasing the limit to 1000 hours - the 2014 regs state the following:

CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours
(a) No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours

[Mr Good Cat]

Unless the plan has changed, EK will comply with EASA flight time limitations when they come into force on 18th Feb 2016.

The finalised version of the FTLs can be found here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2014:028:0017:0029:EN:PDF

What they do between now and then is anyone's guess.

[Mr Good Cat]

For those with an attention span like mine, here is a comparison between the new EASA FTLs and the current Brit FTLs, on which EKs OM-A is based (so I am led to believe)....

http://www.balpa.org/getdoc/1b37bae1-f19a-4c7a-ad27-b90af6830aea/CAP371-vs-EASA-Opinion.aspx

The "BALPA" mnemonic relates to their pilot union.

[harry the cod]

FTL's? Mmm......wonder why every ASR that refers to rest issues with cabin crew on ULR operations responds with something like;

"We do not follow the normal FDP for ULR ops and our rest strategy has been approved outside of CAAP14. There is no legal requirement for rest on ULR ops as a rest strategy has been put in place for individual pairings. The Purser has discretion on the day to reduce or increase rest depending on flight time. Crew must have equal rest but at no time must service or customer interaction be compromised blah blah blah"

So, it's ok to have completely knackered crew falling asleep on the jumpseat during landing just as long as there was good customer interaction throughout the 16hour flight. Let's not even take into account the time they're required to report.

I wonder if it had been EK instead of Asiana at SFO whether these hidden concerns would be highlighted and changed.

Harry

[jidder]

:D Well said Harry

[jack schidt]

Harry,

Well said in the comparison "what if it was EK and not Asiana". I think that recording of words here are very important about some issues so that it can never be said that the crew were not concerned should anything ever happen.

There are rules and there is reality, the rules of rest and fatigue DO NOT match with reality and alertness.

If it was not for the determination of the crews and their profesional attitudes to cope with what they are dealt with, there would be, without doubt, major problems. Sadly many are trapped in a system where the need to provide for the family and to not uproot them and cause chaos to go back home due to studies etc. Personally, I have never known how dire fatigue could be until I operated with EK, it's fatigue on a whole new level.

Jack

[Saltaire]

Back to reality and a much needed pay raise….


UAE cost of living will continue to rise... as economy booms - Emirates 24/7 (http://www.emirates247.com/business/uae-cost-of-living-will-continue-to-rise-as-economy-booms-2014-05-26-1.550282)

[Outatowner]

Word from a reputable source is that the delay is due to a possible imminent agreement vis-a-vis the purchase of a sizable percentage of a certain battered red-tailed airline.

[Tight Seat]

Why would we want a bit of Virgin ( especially if it's been battered?) :)

[Pointer]

Last time I checked.. The only other 380 operator in DXB has red tails??? Wouldn't they make a more likely candidate?? (Also battered)

[donpizmeov]

I think the pay delay is due more to the muppet factor than the airline buying factor.

The don

[Tight Seat]

Pointer.... Fishing is a great sport.

[Pointer]

Was never fond of fishing without bait..

[glofish]

That would be fly fishing then, wouldn't it Pointer. Don't like flyin'? ;)

Otherwise i do agree with don's muppet factoring. A deplorable show. :mad:

[Pointer]

Glofish; good one ;) however.. Doesn't fly fishin involve elaborate fake lures? Sort of what we face day to day isn't it? Pay review postponed etc..

Back to the topic.. Where's the money??

[GoreTex]

EK will wait until they know what impact the runway closure has to the profits, as usual the employees have to pay for it

[Woopoops]

Here goes the last bit of respect I held for the company. Be man enough to say whatever it is: rise or nothing. Childish, disrespectful and irresponsible. They bring you and your family half way around the world and then once you here keep you hostage to whatever game they're playing. This is not the poker, it is real people with real needs and they are not unreasonable this time around. If you can't handle this just be men enough to admit it.

[LHR Rain]

This delay is unacceptable. What are they waiting for? They can't wait until mid July when the runway opens up to give us our much deserved raise, or can they?

[CAYNINE]

The point you all miss is.... they don't care if you have to wait

[fatbus]

LHR, unacceptable and what are you going to do about it? As Caynine said they really don't care.

[Woopoops]

Fatbus, it is not the question of what we're going to do about it, but what THEY are going to do about it. And the signs are already al over the wall. Upset by unbelievable display of disrespect and ignorance by the company local FOs leaving in droves to go to the unmentionable airline, massive amount of Captains working on the exit strategy and that is not to mention people who already jumped the ship in the last 12 months, causing rise in attrition rate.
Honestly, good luck to them trying to hire qualified pilots, we are not blind, deaf or stupid. Yes we're slow to react, because of various reasons such as family, schooling, financial commitments, but once the ball is rolling it is not going stop. For me it is not the matter of money any more, but the matter of respect and there is none left and that is mutual. Time to look elsewhere, where things such as pride, honour, respect actually mean something. Good luck to those staying as this ship is done. When you remove the pillars that people's society lived upon for hundreds of years what you get in return? Chaos. And it will take a long long time to get it back on its feet.

[glofish]

As you apparently can't do zilch about squat, work to the minimum, no extra mile or extension, to all other times switch off your brain for company matters.

Oh what a relief it is!

As to the apparent lack of quality for recruitment, just read the latest safety report ... The erosion has already nicely settled in. :ugh::ugh::ugh::

[Kempus]

All those tired Airbus guys should check out the BA recruitment website.

Just saying.

[thatwasclose]

In response to glofish. I am feed up with the company too. Managment continues to erode our working conditions and treats us with more and more disdain. All that is true. However our new pilots are not any less quality than before. There has been no drop in the requirement of entry. Rather I believe the longer I have been here the more experience I have. As time goes by I imagine that what I know now is what I have always known. Which is not true. New joiners always need time to settle and learn as I, and I imagine all of us had to. The old always think the new is useless . Just ask my grandmother . She is still suspicious of that odd metric system.
In short the company has not had to accept lesser quality recruits. I sadly imagine that they will never have to. I tell people to think long and hard about coming here, but they still come. The so called difficulty in finding people I believe comes from the fact that the company was hard pressed to find guys going directly to A 380 as they needed 1500 hours in an airbus. They are finding guys, and if they fail too they will just change the requirement.
The ship is sinking only in regard to our conditions.
Where is my pay rise dammit

[glofish]

thatwasclose

We all are asking ourselves where our not only deserved, but bitterly needed pay rise is.

As there is a correlation between supply and demand with the required quality, the observation that recruitment has become more difficult, should raise our attention. Any lowering of the quality bar has an impact on pressure to the managers about t&c's. This means that if they can still feed the ranks by paying less (no inflation, no raise, no step), they accept the B, or C-team. So we lose on two ends: In our wallets and in our jobs, with lesser qualified/trained colleagues. Even if you accept that most are still adequately skilled, where do you draw the line?

By reading the safety bulletin, at least to me, the line is below what i consider adequate. Be it that most rather silly contributions are to cover their @$$', there are quite disturbing other ones.
Like the one where GS capture from above was attempted with FLCH (never heard of the ASIANA accident?), or AP engagement mis-switched with APP and (at least according to the ASR) not realised by both on the FMA at all!
That shows what kind of quality we seem to have flying our metal today. We all make mistakes, but some reading is painful and way off standard.

I might sound harsh, but if we accept and defend such standards, they are our buddies after all, they all need a job and we all make mistakes, then we should not complain about the race to the bottom of our t&c's.

[Rotaiva]

On the basis that closure of the June salaries is the 18th I expect they will not announce any 'contract adjustment' till the Thursday prior (at 3pm) - that is 12th June.

Why? Operations don't care about intangibles such as morale and motivation and never will until the supply-demand equation forces them to re-evaluate. Lets face it, they address the demand whilst HR address the supply. Whilst we have people whom accept discretion needlessly (ex Dubai) and other such self-damaging practices demand will continue to be satisfied. So Ops, I believe are content. I reckon they look to Pre-ops for immediate crewing levels and get the 'thumbs up'.

Question - whom out there has received payment for working on a day off?? I know of no-one!

Further, why would they announce any change now? Once they missed the May deadline they most likely sat back and said "okay now we have a window till 18th; lets get it sorted out by then". No need to do it sooner!

HR look to recruitment for feedback and from that evaluate the supply equation.

In an environment and company the size of ours attrition and lack of job satisfaction can only (by bean counters) realistically be measured in an analytical way. As much as I disagree with it I am sure they don't give a rats ar$e about individualized negativity and the rumor crap found on pprune. They look at the other packages and make a suitable package themselves. 'Careless and irresponsibly wrong I believe!'

In fact I think our HR department have become very insensitive to emotive responses and focus solely on the monetary package.

In short, IMHO talk of 8000-10000 increases are examples of Chinese whispers and I'll be amazed if the actual adjustment is anything near this. As for our desire to know the monetary increases sooner or later - I think we have no hope.

I really wish to be proven wrong but I'm nowadays a very cynical bar$tard!

Vietnam and CSA although entertaining still fall short of the tabled offer her at EK. There may well be a LOT of better lifestyle choices out there but again - I don't believe HR look at this - it's too subjective.

Rant over!

[Alconguin Crusader]

How can anyone say the standard has not accepted lesser quality pilots?
Have you seen what is coming through?
Forget all the statistics. When you lower the hourly requirements you lower your experience level. No one can deny that.
Where is my pay raise dammit!

[Dropp the Pilot]

"Where is my pay raise" is a question which misses the point slightly. You have already had your pay rise and worked under the new terms whilst earning your salary for the month of May. It's not that your pay raise is missing - you just don't know what it is yet.

[HarryDunne]

They already know what the pay review consists of, they couldn't announce a profit target if they don't know overheads and outgoings.

I hope, really hope, there is another genuine reason why they are withholding the news - if it's simply to prevent a further drop in morale during the runway closure then it's an incredibly poor way to behave, and disrespectful to the employees.

From memory, the last time we had a pay rise + step that matched inflation was a few years before the increase in the productivity threshold. So that must be around 5 years of what is essentially pay cuts, whilst the company continues to make record profits.

Does anyone have to hand the actual year we received a tangible pay rise?

[Wizofoz]

How can anyone say the standard has not accepted lesser quality pilots?
Have you seen what is coming through?

We are not accepting lesser quality pilots.

Forget all the statistics. When you lower the hourly requirements you lower your experience level.

Hour requirements are not equal to quality. RELEVENT experience has actually increased, and quality has been at least maintained.

You are incredibly disrespectful to the people you work with- I hope you have the sack to explain to your FO's exactly how inferior you consider them.

[donpizmeov]

It was 2500hrs total and 1000hrs jet when I joined. So the requirement has increased if anything.

The don

[glofish]

don and wiz

You are closer to the 9th level than the rest of us, i respect that.
So please explain the mentioned ridiculous ASRs, if they do not origin from a drop of quality.

I am not sarcastic!

[donpizmeov]

So stating what the requirements were when I joined makes me management? Boy, I say boy, you are as sharp as a bowling ball.

So gloie let me get this right, you are anti management, and anti any pilot with a staff number greater than yours. You had better hope that those senior to you don't have the same ideas.

Why is it that the bad pilots always joined after the complainer? Why is it that standards always drop, training became easier, command courses become easier after you have done yours? Are they really out to get you?

Grow up.

The don.

PS. Personally transport jock, I would prefer a busty leggy blonde sitting next to me. Couldn't really care to much on how many hours she had. Her dad owning a brewery would be a bonus.

[Viagra]

I number of local emirati co-workers in my lowly rank are thinking of leaving Emirates to fly for someone else we cannot talk of.

Not only is it quicker to command , they have a PAY-RISE AND PROFIT-SHARE, (even if the profit is manufactured)!!

If I was a local, I'd move too. Wait a minute, I have those same command requirements.. := :E

Its all about the $coin$ vs the competition, oooh they have first-class double-bedroom sky-suites now...

[Payscale]

The probably went to the THY/China Southern roadshow and counted how many people went, and decided that we are actually happy.

best regards
Patty Hearst

[thrustidle74]

Interested in knowing what others think appropriate increases should be...

A 15-20% plus realistic education allowance might ( and that's a might) make me stay a couple more years, maybe...
Otherwise EASA ATPL and CV ready, waiting for autumn 2014 to put in my applications.

[glofish]

There is a lot of Stockholm Syndrom around here ......

don
It was 2500hrs total and 1000hrs jet when I joined. So the requirement has increased if anything.

No, it has been higher at times before, so they lowered the standard at least once. -> Fact

wiz
We are not accepting lesser quality pilots

From what reference point? Remember 2003 and the Bahrain incident? They upped the antes then, didn't they?

Not wanting to go in a slagging match, but face the reality!

Back in 2003/4 they suddenly had to give the needed DECs an entry to direct 4th year captain scale, because they couldn't find enough who would join for the meagre salary. Why? Because the requirements were quite high. Would you think this could happen today, or has that happened since?
No, because since then, they rarely took in DECs, and for FOs they took whatever was available, adapting the hours/experience accordingly.

As i stated, the quality might even be sufficient! But as i stated as well, we can't bitch about no pay increase if we implicitly support a drop in initial qualifications. Because you can always adapt the influx to what you are prepared to pay!!!!!!

So be careful what you wish for or what you defend!

[Curry Goat]

Good, 'cause she's a minger anyway!!:)

[Wizofoz]

Would you rather have someone with 6000 hours in the right seat next to you, or someone who just scrapes 2500 hours who happened to have flown a Boeing or Airbus...

In a Boeing or Airbus?

Seriously, option 2.

But the reality is neither- I want someone well trained and sharp who knows what he is doing, and the young guys coming in with time doing bulk sectors around Europe meet that in spades.

As i stated, the quality might even be sufficient! But as i stated as well, we can't bitch about no pay increase if we implicitly support a drop in initial qualifications. Because you can always adapt the influx to what you are prepared to pay!!!!!!

So be careful what you wish for or what you defend!

I didn't say I support it- I am just not prepared to lie and say the current recruits aren't good pilots- they are. The current pass-rate and rates of extra training required (little to none) evidence that.

[glofish]

I didn't say I support it- I am just not prepared to lie and say the current recruits aren't good pilots- they are. The current pass-rate and rates of extra training required (little to none) evidence that.

I accept that. My perception is different, but you have greater exposure.

[fliion]

Someone was asking above about pay raise history. This is what I have since keeping notes around 2008:

Pay raise/bonus since May 2008
05/08
12% 14 wks
05/09
None due financial crisis - OT threshold went from 78-92 somewhere around here.
This marked the beginning of significant erosion of T&Cs
05/10
6% 3wks
05/11 (edu fund 32-40/54-60)
8% 12wks
05/12
3% no bonus
05/13 (edu fund 40-42/60-63)
3.5% no bonus
05/14
3wks (pay review deferral letter 22/5/14)

2012-13 prof target 3.5bn dhs (achvd 3.1bn) 10/5/13

13/14 target 4.22bn (1st half 2.2bn) 8/5/14 - 4.1bn achieved

2014/15 target 3.7bn (rwy closure)

I have to agree with posters above, that there is no science to what experience level makes a good FO. Yes experience counts but my arse has been saved by both cadets and 50yr old heavy drivers. Keep it up boys :) !

f.

[JAARule]

This marked the beginning of significant erosion of T&Cs


BS. You obviously weren't here for TCK's Great Cost Neutral Pay Adjustment where credit for annual leave was erased, amongst his other slimy moves. TCK wasn't smart enough to think of most of it himself of course and many of those behind it are still here.


This snapshot is a good example of the window view. The decline has been going for a lot longer than that; it's just the gradient which has varied at times.

[fliion]

Perhaps you could provide some numbers.

f.

[fatbus]

Was the pay raise retroactive to Apr 1st or May 1st, I seem to recall Apr prior to last year.

[fliion]

All of the above good stuff.

Fatty - can't remember .

Just waiting on JAArules factual pre '08 numbers to get the none 'window view' big picture.

f.

[ekwhistleblower]

All of those numbers include the planned step increase so actual changes since 2011 is plus 0.5%. I don't view a step for experience that is in my contract as a rise.

If you want to really see how we have done the pay of a starter was as follows:
1992 - 15500 (75 hrs)
2014 - 29000 (85hrs)

So about doubled in 22 years. From 92 to 2000 official inflation was 52%. From 2000 to 2014 73%. The peak was nearly 15% in just 2008 which about matches all the pay rises since 07. (I believe "ex-pat inflation" is much higher)

So 15500 in 92 should be 46192 AED with no erosion! (Adjusted for official inflation and extra hours flown)

Stats at: http://www.adced.ae/uploads/Chartbook.pdf

[myekppa]

Let's not forget the impact of exchange rates.

It's an individuals choice to expose themselves to that risk, but this is an expat gig and the true value of the package will determine recruitment and retention.

The issue is that bottom feeder pilots are not affected nor care about historical salary data, they eat what's on the table today. The old hands won't extract themselves from their comfort zone until there is something worth chasing. It usually has to be a fatter, more tastier prey in a nicer part of the ocean. Preferably all three.

There are plenty of bottom feeders, the comfort zone is comfortable enough and significant other prey has been all but fished out. TC is a cunning fisherman, he's saving his berley for when it really counts.

[fliion]

Thanks JAARule - pay raise and bonuses in '% & weeks 'respectively - for the period 'long before' many of us showed up.

When you call BS - back it up with specifics please.

f.

[flareflyer]

This week end there should have been a roadshow in SIN. Any news? Did the recruit team come out with some news to offer? And more important did they have somebody listening to them?

[steve777driver]

yes.... and how many pilot bodies in the world would go to work, not knowing what they are getting paid?? People are assuming it's going to go up! Really?!? If Qantas are letting guys go then I bet you EK are banking on a wave of applications to meet some / most of their needs and are probably planning on taking advantage of this by not increase stuff all.

I really hope I'm wrong.

[kingpost]

Wasn't it TCAS who scrapped the hourly allocation for leave and sim?

TCK was a fraud but he at least organised housing for new Capt's, can you name one thing TCAS has done, that's not including just looking after himself and making cuts - anything positive?

[SOPS]

I'm starting to think, whatever is coming, it's not good.

[palm]

It's definitively not looking good. Guys you can't brace for impact.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Snake man]

Kingpost,

"can you name one thing TCAS has done, that's not including just looking after himself and making cuts - anything positive?"

I think you've forgotten about the superb new hats which we got. Those one's which cunningly double up as flotation devices....

[flareflyer]

I checked the contribution and this month is about 130 dollar more.......

[BANANASBANANAS]

No change to contributions on my pay statement or Prov Fund statement.

[nakbin330]

No change on mine either.

[777X]

Is the pending pay review for the entire company workforce or just pilots?

[steve777driver]

Yip... No change on provident payments. It's only a small amount but I bet once the new package is announced they will forget to back pay into provident. Unless of course we are earning less! Then I'm sure they will take it off.

[Desdihold]

3:30 is fast approaching on a Thursday afternoon, the silence is deafening.

[cerbus]

Another Thursday afternoon and no email from the company on the Pay Review.
What is going on here? This is beyond ridiculous.

[BobDole]

They will wait till the runway project is done.

Can't have upset troops out there!

:ugh:

[haveago]

It shows complete lack of respect! And truly emphasizes what they think of us! A truly disgraceful way to treat employees! Have some balls Stealy! Man up! Let us know what's going on!!

[JAYTO]

How many extra miles have YOU gone this week ?

[JAARule]

No extra miles for quite some time however I did watch the FO draaaaaaagging it in last night with flaps out at 28 track NM (a new record) and gear down at 2000ft with 11 NM to go. That's close to the same net effect as the extra miles.


Thank you training dept!

[Chock]

Livin' the dream. Keep discovering.

[FUSE PLUG]

Keep Rowing... no pay announcement till they are done squeezing every last drop out of you. Keep Rowing. Keep your heads down, don't make eye contact with your masters... Just row.

[ramius315]

JAARule,

Bravo for allowing the FO to do that, and not making them your autopilot.

But afterwards did you have a chat about it, or just come here to write about it and bitch about the training dept.......?

[General Dogsbody]

Our employer has no respect for us and takes every possible opportunity to show it! What do we do?? We descend into another pointless P@@$ing contest about the merits/capabilities of our colleagues(FO's & Capt's), maybe we should start another round of the 380v777 debate!!

We are being continually and deliberately shafted in every way possible and the Management can comfortably giggle at us from Costa because all we can do is fight amongst ourselves.. :ugh:

[TCU LUX]

GD, you're right. Post removed :ok:

[JAARule]

Bravo for allowing the FO to do that, and not making them your autopilotAre you serious?? I thought you'd be getting uptight about not fixing the outrages to aviation. But not my job to teach them and many don't want to be shown anything anyway.

In all fairness.... if that FO was to do anything other than that type of conservative flying with 70% of the EK Cpts....they (Cpt) would be sh#ting themselves.That's true but it's still irritating - but what to do... Not sure which came first though, the chicken or egg.

[LouthGirl]

JAARule, you deserve a medal !

[harry the cod]

JAARule

"...but not my job to teach them.."

Interesting statement. Maybe not your job to teach them but ever thought of it as simple feedback? Is that not how we all learned as F/O's, from words of wisdom and advice from more experienced captains. Some advice was good, some was crap and some we thought at the time was crap turned out to be good. We picked and chose what we thought was worthwhile, often based on the merits and ability of the guy dispensing the feedback.

Don't do it for the sake of the Company, do it for helping your fellow colleague. If he doesn't want to take it onboard, that's his problem. He may thank you for it when he's on the command course!

Harry

[mooseknuckles]

Honest question...how does performing a CDA benefit the individual pilot? And what incentive does anyone have not to fly conservatively? If you nail it, no one cares. If you ball it up, tea and biscuits.

[pilotday]

have to agree with Moose and TOGA. Who cares if you save fuel. You get a final warning letter if you fudge up and become unstable. Maybe guys would try to be more efficient if there was less fear of termination.

You become stable painfully early, you go home and forget about it, keep your job.

Isn't there another post about guys creating their own CDA approaches only to have ATC to tell them to increase ROD? Following ATC instructions not to hit anything, that is a great idea….

[767200]

So, they announced the profit target for next year but they don't know what their employee salaries/benefits will cost them????

They know and I would be very surprised if it was any good at all...

I hope I am wrong...

[harry the cod]

CDA's and stable approaches are not mutually exclusive! In fact, in my experience I can honestly say that often the pilot who's planning his descent and is being proactive is less likely to balls up on the stabilisation than those sticking with VNAV all the way or open descent. Aircraft should be operated in a safe and efficient manner. level at 2000' 15 miles out is neither of those. You're far more likely to get a false G/S and believe me, people have followed them!

Take some professional pride in the job for f**ks sake!

Harry

[mooseknuckles]

Never implied they were exclusive, but you are more likely to be unstable trying to do a CDA. Professional pride? My profession is to fly people from A to B safely. How the f*ck does flying conservative approaches encroach on that mission? Also, flying conservatively doesn't mean dragging it in from 15 miles. Typical EK sky god bulls#it. If you think that flying CDAs makes you a better pilot, then by all means Chuck, have at it and tell all your friends at the barbie, I'm sure they'll pat your back and laud the efficient operator you are, mate.

[fatbus]

I thought this was about the pay review, when did it degrade to all this BS about CDA's.

[kingpost]

767200 you raise a very good point, how can a target be set, budgets approved and yet they're unsure about our increase!

It actually goes to show how good they are at creative accounting. It certainly has changed over the past 10 years, completely lost its soul!!

[BYMONEK]

Moose

Assuming you're from 'merica, it doesn't surprise me that CDA's are low on your agenda. Not a criticism, just stating fact. CDA's are not a feature of US flying and therefore not really taught or encouraged. In Europe they are and need to be due to highly noise sensitive airports. Airlines get notified and often fined, particularly on departure violations. I don't think many European pilots do it for a pat on the back, it's done because that's the way most of us were trained and it's ingrained in the way we operate the aircraft.

As for your statement about CDA's likely to end up with more unstable approaches, I completely disagree. My previous Company was one of the worst offenders into LGW back in the late 90's with CDA's (after all the American airlines!). An 'education and awareness' program followed and they went from being bottom to 2nd best in 12 months. Interestingly, they found that the number of G/A's due to unstable approaches were reduced by almost half. Why? Because pilots were consciously calculating their profile and managing their energy accordingly. So, if anything, I'd say that correctly flown CDA's actually reduce unstable approaches. A CDA, at the end of the day is nothing more than efficient energy management, right?

Assuming you are an EK jockey, you might want to take a look at the OMA. Flying safely from A-B is a given. You're also expected to do so efficiently!

Now, shall we get back to the topic Captain? :ok:

[Uplink]

So heres a thought...imagine that even though we didn't make the target this year for profit share, they gave us three weeks to keep us sweet during the runway closure time.. Imagine also that they are delaying the pay review until the runway opens to keep us all working hard. Let us finally imagine that once the runway opens, they send us a message to say there is no pay rise, but thanks for your hard work....Imagine that!

As a few have already said, what company has already closed its 2013-14 financial year, posted a target and don't know what they will pay their employees....they already know and we would be foolish to think otherwise. We are going to get a big fat zero. The runway closure is the only thing on their scope right now. They have half the cabin crew missing on unpaid leave. Imagine if you will again, yet another insulting pay rise for them. Half of them wouldn't come back. The other half would come back to pick up their clothes, kiss the Leb boyfriend goodbye and depart. They know that any disruption whilst the runway fixing is going on would be disastrous. is it me though, or has the operation actually been running smoother? i haven't had any delays, push off stand normally and perhaps one or two times in the hold for 10 mins and back home I go? Maybe I am not doing the other flights?

We all said to a man, that we would never get a bonus again.....i have no clue anymore what they are playing at. just look at your seniority list to see whats happening. two steps forward and one step back. The attrition rate is picking up, that you can't hide. But despite all our rants and posts on here, people still are joining. Is it really that bad outside EK? TC said that everybody wants to work for EK...are they just kidding themselves? TBH I just can't be arsed anymore. I go to work, come home and switch off. Jeez does that mean I am now institutionalised?? I went to the China Southern roadshow along with the other 70 or so guys. It wasn't for me thats for sure. I now have an EASA licence...but work for Ryanair....no way. I don't think we can avoid , as an expat, another expat job...but where to go..

anyways back tot the question "wheres my money"

there ain't none and don't live in hope!

[JAARule]

Why do people keep saying the company didn't meet the profit share target? Here's what the boss said:
Our profits increased to Dhs4.08 billion meeting the profit share target and a three-week profit share has been declared.

[Shaky Hands]

JAA RULE,
Incorrect, he said we fell short of our profit share target, however the company wanted to recognize everyone's hard work and therefore they would award a 3 week bonus, the video was on the portal, not sure if it's still there but that's what happened.
Guys, pay review rumors and news is appreciated CDA BS ain't.
Just to reinforce, I've heard from many other colleagues a similar rumor to the previous posts on here that the deal is pending GCAA approval for the new FTLs as Emirates is going to have to stop factoring so therefore want the 1000 hours, removing productivity and flight pay in exchange for a AED10000 Capt/AED6000 FO. Which in my view is just giving something in one hand and taking away with the other but we work even harder than we already do.
I would be amazed if EK produce a pilot package in the current and forecast suitably qualified pilot market in a time when airlines are struggling to crew aircraft in some parts of the world which falls short and puts them out of the race. Talking to colleagues back home the image here is not what it was and the interest in coming here has gone.

[Rather Be Skiing]

767200 you raise a very good point, how can a target be set, budgets approved and yet they're unsure about our increase! It actually goes to show how good they are at creative accounting. It certainly has changed over the past 10 years, completely lost its soul!!

It is possible the budget accounts for the pay review but the exact structure of said pay is yet to be finalized. I think we are going to see significant changes to the way our pay is structured. No idea, of course, if that means an increase or not. I can convince myself either way.

[BANANASBANANAS]

So, when this backdated pay rise is finally announced, can we all backdate our resignation letters to May1st?

The longer the silence continues, the more the uncertainty is growing and the more we will all be looking around. I am not going to sit on my backside waiting for the company to stick or twist any longer. Invitations to interview with other airlines now being accepted - and I have only been here 5 minutes. A very poor way to manage an airline.

[fliion]

The irony of demanding bonuses & pay raises while advocating drop and drag over CDAs (and handing out medals - WTF!) -

...is laughable..if it wasn't pathetic

Only on pprune.

What Harry said .., take some phukking pride in the job.

f.

[HighLow]

Guys and Girls,

watching this thread with great interest !

Keep this in mind, should the annual limit rise from 900 to 1000 hours per year, along with the, as suggested on this thread, the removal of flight pay:


Current Situation:
Current Pay per Hour

(Monthly Basic Pay * 12) + (Flight Pay * 900)
--------------------------------------------
900


Rumoured EK Pay Review
New Payment per Hour =
(Removal of Flight Pay and increase to 1000hrs)

(New Monthly Basic Pay * 12)
-----------------------------
1000

Granted, income into the household is increased, but I wouldnt be surprised (should what has been stated on here be the the new reality), your hourly rate will have actually REDUCED !!!


Your Thoughts,


(P.S. - EASA Compliant and also in accordance with authorities around the globe?) any complications?
(P.P.S - Inflation in the Middle East)

[glofish]

I don't think such a new pay structure will be implemented.
It would be way too easy to press 2 and still get the same amount of money .....

[mooseknuckles]

BYMONEK, that's understood and thanks for that, well said. Last word is that I simply questioned the benefit to the individual. If you take pride in CDAs then do it. Personally I get no pride or satisfaction from them but mabe thats just me. That said, I do them when operationally feasible as per the OM-A which "encourages" them. Maybe I've just seen too many FOs try to get it just right and get behind the plane and I'd rather stay out of the office if at all possible. Fly safe fellas.

[falconeasydriver]

Well all this faffing about is starting to get old, I like others am getting a bit tired of the game, I moved my family home last year, and its been a revelation for them, much happier, settled and not battling day to day to get certain basic things resolved/solved. For me it works, but the daily uncertainty, the continual a*se covering culture, and the mentality of the "entitled" local element has helped convince me to look at pastures new. If this review process drags on much longer, I suspect my motivation will extend to accepting several interview offers.
We moan and groan as a collective group, but as individuals more of us are actively looking beyond the Desdi/Bubin hold.

[JAARule]

Shaky hands and Yourock,
That quote is a direct copy/paste from the boss's email to the masses. I don't know how or why you dispute it when it says in black and white, "profits increased to Dhs4.08 billion meeting the profit share target " His words, not mine. How's your ELP? :)
I never saw the video, are you saying the information in it contradicted the email??

If there IS a re-jig of the salary structure for 1000hrs, you can be sure the net per hour after all calculations are in will be a little less.


Flion, just for you - the comment on past downhill slides was about conditions, not just numbers. For example, here's a quote from 2004:
The basis for calculation of productivity pay will change from Credit Hours to Scheduled Block Hours.


All duties other than flying (including leave, deadheading, personal simulators and standby) will not contribute towards productivity pay.

I think you would call that a "significant erosion of T&Cs" from some way back. As you can see, it's been going consistently further south for quite a while.

[BYMONEK]

Deadheading does count towards productivity pay. It wasn't originally but that changed. The other duties receive no credit full stop, let alone productivity!

The above 'freebie' duties are supposed to have a phantom credit attached during roster but it's either not working as planned or, more likely, ignored to increase efficiency at our expense. I've often found my roster just below the productivity threshold but there will be SEP, sim or other non credit duties rostered. That way 100-105 hours a month can be done whilst only being payed for 92.

[alwayzinit]

The "holding" email notwithstanding.


This is now a bad joke.


Like many others I am actively seeking pastures new and greener.

[777boyo]

As a very wise Captain said to me many years ago, "If the grass looks greener on the other side, be careful, it probably means it rains harder over there".

7B

[palm]

As part of its restructuring plan for 5,000 job cuts, the Australian airline Qantas Airways has confirmed 223 drivers B767 and B747 surplus.

152 of them will be offered positions on other types of aircraft, but they have especially relocate to other cities, especially Adelaide. The decision follows an announcement there are two weeks of 475 job cuts at the call center in Melbourne and Brisbane while it consolidates the one located in Tasmania.

The restructuring plan over three years announced by the Australian national airline in February should help save $ 1.8 billion (USD) thanks again to significant changes in its fleet and network. Fifty aircraft must be removed, resold or delayed delivery as is the case for their last 8 A380, the company keeping only 7 different aircraft types.

The plan aims to stem the tide of lost its international division while restarting its internal operations. However, the greatest progress in his quest to restore profits, has so far been the decision to call a truce in the war of capacity with Virgin Australia, which resulted in a flood of additional seats on the domestic market during the two recent years.

During the first six months of fiscal 2014, the Australian airline lost 250 million Australian dollars and loss estimates for the entire year to evoke a billion Australian dollars of loss.


Interesting isn't ......:=:=:=:=:=

[ekwhistleblower]

Not really, there are better options for those leaving than EK.

[Desdihold]

This topic needs to be kept at the top of the discussion list.

[palm]

After years of nondescript increments, UAE employees are eyeing a windfall in salary hikes this year. A majority of professionals in the workforce claim to have received nothing or only marginal increments last year even as official statistics show that the cost of living went up as compared to the year before.

Despite the poor show seen on the pay front in 2013, these very employees are hopeful about 2014 and believe that fatter hikes are bound to come their way. These could be as high as 15 per cent, as believed by a third (32 per cent) of UAE respondents to a poll.

The latest Mena salary survey conducted by job portal Bayt.com and market research agency, YouGov suggests that expectations of a pay-hike in the UAE are high this year despite the fact that 44 per cent of those surveyed said they didn’t receive anything in 2013 and 46 per cent are dissatisfied with their current salary.

Suhail Masri, VP of Sales, Bayt.com, believes “that salaries are not consistently keeping pace with the rising cost of living in the UAE. This seems to be a general trend across the Mena region that companies must address if they want to win today’s increasingly intense war for talent.”

Sundip Chahal, CEO of YouGov Mena, added: “Overall, employees across the Mena region seem rather dissatisfied with their salary – with a significant minority unable to save anything of their wages. Undoubtedly, employees feel short changed and in the UAE, in particular, where we see relatively low loyalty, an increase in cost of living and a presumption other employers pay more, we may see significant churn over the next year as employers struggle to match employees expectations.”

Despite the unhappiness about the average pay increments in the country, the survey shows the number of optimistic respondents higher than what an earlier online poll run by Emirates 24|7 revealed. The latter stated that UAE employees are not necessarily upbeat about their salary going up this year, too.

The poll conducted by this website showed that 47 per cent of the respondents do not expect any salary increment this year. Of the remaining 53 per cent who expect a hike speak of only moderate increments that are not reminiscent of the heydays when employees had considerable negotiating powers. It was only the minority (only 12 per cent) who expect a hike of more than 10 per cent, way less than the predicted figures by the current survey.

A general industry survey, published by HR consultancy Towers Watson in the beginning of this year, said UAE salary increases are projected to average 5 per cent and Morgan McKinley suggested salaries to grow by a 6 per cent to 8 per cent in 2014.

[donpizmeov]

I wonder if the same person that looked after our leave is now looking after the pay review. The adherence to timelines would seem to be similar.


The don

[BobDole]

I doubt they honestly care.

It costs them nothing except for a loss of morale from the employees to keep us hanging on waiting for an announcement that may or may not change anything. And I think at this point anyone with an IQ higher then single digits knows what the higher ups care about morale.

What incentive do they have to give us a single fil increase?

:ugh:

Keep rowing minions! You are not going that extra mile fast enough!

[BANANASBANANAS]

The bean counters can't measure morale and therefore it plays no part in their pay review. However, I can see the effects of that low morale costing EK money on just about every flight I operate.

[The Outlaw]

But low morale is still SOME morale in their books...besides its meaningless even if it was ZERO morale. It's not something that needs any fixing because the company makes money...or so its said.

It will require a total change of the top players to the lowest managers before any change will occur....and that will never happen.

Besides...if you don't like it you can always excerise the only right you have, the right to leave. But if you stay then you'll have to comply with the change to the bucket policy by handing in your two equal sized buckets marked **** and $, for a 45 gallon drum and thimble marked the same. (Non compliance may incur disciplinary action)

[BANANASBANANAS]

I think quite a few are taking their equal sized buckets elsewhere. But you are quite right. The company either doesn't care, or does a good job of not showing that it cares - which amounts to the same thing.

[TheDarkHorse]

If only...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHC4u3mT3s0

[alwayzinit]

May I suggest everyone writes to AS asking for an update.

It lacks the impact of an in tray piled high with memos but the message is the same.

[SubsonicMortal]

I'm willing to bet a dollar on the fact that you probably haven't sent that email to him.

[Payscale]

No point in writing AS. This is coming down from the 9th floor. That's above his pay grade, however good it may be.
Just hang in there a few more days. They run salaries on the 18th so hopefully something will come next week.

[Plane_Sailing]

In light of the now obvious 10 year time to command, in order to attract people now they need to introduce a sliding pay scale for f/o's. A 6 year f/I should be nearly on 1 year captain salary. That goes for benefits and travel privileges too!

[AirTaxiDriver]

Well... time is changing,
Few of our RYR guys are back home, with RYR...

[TOGA Thrust]

Evidently it was made very clear to the training captains at the training meeting a few days back that there would be no increase in training pay.

It seems they haven't had any increase on this for a few years now.

Reason given was no one had asked the SVP for any input on increases so none had been given to those further up!

They have too many training captains anyway so this is obviously one way to thin out the ranks. The usual supply and demand issue.

Doesnt bode well for any other increases though... Especially if they get a bunch of airbus rated pilots in from Quantas which is rumoured to be the reason why they are holding off on the salary review.

[sluggums]

They won't get a load from Qantas by the time rebasings, voluntary redundancy, China Southern offering Ozzie bases and the feedback from the ex-Q at EK have taken their toll

[CaptainChipotle]

Pay review just came in via email.

0.0% + free flight bag.

Keep rowing minions!

[kingpost]

Can you bloody believe it, a flight bag!

[CaptainChipotle]

At least their priorities are in the right place?:ugh:

[TOGA Thrust]

Get the facts straight. There is an email about a flight bag. There is nothing on the pay review that I can see.

Comments:
TCAS has been going on about this flight bag for some time. Even gave some new captains theirs in advance after addressing them. He was very excited and delighted!

Quite why the DVP-FO should concern himself with this uniform issue is beyond me. He has a few thousand waiting for news of their salary in a high inflation city and all he can come up with is a flight bag! Its beyond ridiculous. And sad that this is what EK middle management have been reduced to or represent - I'm not sure which.

As for the pay review - more lies. A number of sources have said officially that it would be out by the end of the week - and its not. I suppose there is still a window of opportunity and remain hopeful.

Not a peep out of HR. Maybe they are finishing up the week with a chat in Costa to complain about their husbands and figure out next week's car pool issues so are too busy to give us an update at least.

I dont believe a major company can survive with these symptoms.

I find them contemptous and insensitive. Administators not managers.

They forget their jobs, their futures, their homes, their kids schools, their bonuses all depend on us getting it largely right day after day

Despite what they throw at us, how we percieve their treatment and how much angst and stress they generate, we continue to deliver the goods safely and efficiently - which is more than can be said for them.

[Wizofoz]

As for the pay review - more lies. A number of sources have said officially that it would be out by the end of the week - and its not. I suppose there is still a window of opportunity and remain hopeful.

Name those "official" sources and the venue at which they " officially" made that claim.

Don't worry, I'm peeved we've been left hanging, but as usual, spouting BS does not further our cause.

[Saltaire]

Agree from above with TOGA and my own two fils….

Another Thursday, another missed opportunity for "mutual respect". Haven't I read that somewhere?

Complete disregard for it's hard working flight crew and their families. At the very least, another email would be appreciated. Updates?

So what have EY and QR actually received as pay increases? Anyone have a confirmed number?

[ekwhistleblower]

Quite why the DVP-FO should concern himself with this uniform issue is beyond me. He has a few thousand waiting for news of their salary in a high inflation city and all he can come up with is a flight bag! Its beyond ridiculous. And sad that this is what EK middle management have been reduced to or represent - I'm not sure which.

Normally happens when someone can't do their job for whatever reason; they find something they can do. Same as roster interference from the 9th floor and deck chairs on the Titanic. Should only cost a million bucks or so but what are we going to do with the 4000 bags that are now redundant?

[kingpost]

Heard EY got 18%, I could be wrong though!

[gfy]

Quite why the DVP-FO should concern himself with this uniform issue is beyond me.

TCAS is rumored to get a great 'reward' from seeing us in the new uniform. He feels he 'owned' the uniform problem and stayed below the 'bottom line' at all times

[TangoUniform]

Just for some info...does anyone know what the starting 777 DEC salary is at the airline down the road? Might make for some interesting Costa talk if a good number of EK drivers make application, even though there probably be some handshake agreement about poaching.

[what_goes_up]

Just for some info...does anyone know what the starting 777 DEC salary is at the airline down the road?

35200AED + 50/flying hour.

Not worth the hassle... :ouch:

[Instant Hooligan]

Captain B777 (http://www.etihad.com/en-us/careers/flight-operations/captain_b777/)

[fliion]

On a personal note, I'm unemotional (not ecstatic) about delay in pay review because I know if will be retroactive.

Having said that I believe that the longer the Co. wait the greater the expectation and more importantly the greater the negative reaction will be ...if it's not a 'show stopper'.

In my view there are a lot of level headed operators on-line saying "let's wait and see before we react". Agreed.

However I think that should the review be disappointing they will have a real problem on their hands.

Here's why;

Firstly - According to a contact I have at one of the big Contract agencies - they have been telling clients in Asia that based on their research there will be 'serious crisis' in LHS heavy pilot numbers in the next 12-18 mos never before seen - massive deliveries of aircraft to China/Asia, THY & ME3 with no more feed from the USA.

HNA decided now to react and have set off a lot of soul searching by offering $349k pa without using an agency ie you work for the company.

Secondly - the guys who are now hitting the seven year mark at EK are ready to move. From summer '06 to summer '08, we hired hundreds who now have and will have 7 yrs under the belt. In the same way EK cleared out FR in recent years, a lot of the VA guys who came from down under have had enough and are looking to go back. They are just sick of the petty shyte (cue new handbags ..FFS stop it... list too long).

I suspect that HR have told the 9th floor "This is what we need to do to attract and keep the best" and that - that has caused a long pause and a lot of back and forth.

...,as someone who thought I would be here for a long time, I can tell you that.. If a contract hits $400k pa in Asia (yes I know, no school, no housing) then it will take some serious soul searching to stay...and I believe it will happen.

Next week we should know a lot more at how they value their flight deck...

...BUT when you have a company that doesn't even have the respect & HR soft skills to inform pilots that they cancelled 70 aircraft & $16bn of what we thought we would be flying ....it's quite frankly shocking....but explains why... there is zero brand loyalty from cabin and flight crew to an amazing global brand...how sad.

Roll on $400k.

Missive over..

f.

[halas]

Fillion and others...

Why are people so upset by the 350 order cancellation and that the company didn't inform them?

Besides the fact that it has been running very quietly from management, and that introduction is not for another five to seven years, who really cares?

There are a shed load of supers and 7W/X to still be delivered.

Whether you hear from the media or from captain orthodontic challenge himself, who gives a flying f^ck

Why the grievance?

halas

[fliion]

Halas,

From my perspective ...it's like letting the punters know why there is a delay.

It's a professional courtesy that costs nothing but reflects on the entity delivering the message.

Life and death - no. But it's a big strategic move and any reputable company would be expected to let their employees know (they certainly did with the order) when there is a change of this sort.

Ours did not....another miss IMO

f.

[BLOGGSON]

Filion,

You hit the nail on the head: EK simply does not buy into the concept of professional courtesy.

Bloggs

[hotduke]

As far as pay raises go; there is what's desired, what's deserved, and what's offered. Anyone care to speculate?

[millerscourt]

fliion

Retrospective perhaps rather than retroactive?:{

[thehonourablefong]

hotduke...

I'll speculate that what we are given (offered wouldn't be particularly accurate) will neither be what is deserved or desired...how's that?!

[Snake man]

What we will be given, will be a big zero. Not even the step.

[pilotrob23]

Seem so certain. Just like no more annual bonus right? Wait for next week, hope we all get good news.

[THRCLB]

My 2 files ,
3-5 % ( normal increment + 1-2% pay rise)
6-8% housing allowance
7-10% flying pay ....

[HamFan]

when this backdated pay rise is finally announced, can we all backdate our resignation letters to May1st?


Bananas x2, as a DEC who joined 18 months ago what are you whining about? You had no excuse for not knowing what they're like because everyone was talking about it but you joined anyway. That was when they were desperate enough to start with DECs again but not desperate to do anything about the conditions.


A bit early for you to be telling us all how bad it is, Sunshine.

[Emma Royds]

I am very surprised that some are making a fuss that the company have not informed us personally about the cancellation of the A350 order.

When does the EK propaganda machine ever produce news that is negative in any shape or form?

[BANANASBANANAS]

Thanks for your carefully considered post there hamfan
I am ambivalent so far. EK is pretty much what I expected it to be so please dont quote a genuine question and misinterpret it as an opinion. The two are very different. Sunshine
The only thing so far that I find really disappointing is the small minority amongst us who, it appears, would rather pick a fight with their colleagues than contribute constructively to dialogue. But it is a small minority. No doubt they feel they have their reasons.
Shall we get back on thread.
I think it will be a total of 8 per cen on basic with a substantially higher increase in housing, education and meals allowances. Hourly flying rate to also increase by circa 8 per cent.