Lion Air

[Speedy737]

Hello everyone! Received this email from Lion Air the other day asking if I was still interested in joining them.



Dear Respected Gentlemen,

Good Day, I do hope this e-mail would you well.

A view times back, we have been receiving an e-mail from all of you with the intention for joining Lion Air. it has been a while and currently we would like to update your intention whether you are remain interested for joining Lion Air as FO B 737 NG or otherwise. Please reply this e-mail with your interest confirmation.

Thank you in advance for your kind attention.

Best Regards,

Pratama Budhi Nugraha
Recruitment Unit



Jl. Gajah Mada No. 7 Jakarta Pusat


Was wondering what the present situation is like at the airline. What's the latest info regarding rosters and leave. I read somewhere that it's only 12 days of annual leave!! If so that's rather pathetic!! Another thing, how much can an FO expect to earn in a month. Thanks in advance.

Safe flying everyone!!

Speedy

[lingdee]

yes, they are once again hiring aggressively as a lot of foreign pilots have resigned.

So long you have 250 hours on type 737, you are in provided you pass the recruitment process.

[latetonite]

That is practically the same everywhere, once you pass the recruitment process..

[Speedy737]

Any word on the roster, leave, salary? Anyone out there who can give me an idea of what the present situation in Lion is like?

[lilflyboy262...2]

1st of all, I would just like to say that I'm not an employee there so you can take my comments as a grain of salt. I am employed in Indonesia though and these are the rumours floating around this part of the world.

Work you like a slave. Paid peanuts.
Expected to work over your maximum hours.
Chief pilot must sign off on you leaving the country. Immigration will stop you at the border otherwise.
Expats no longer allowed to do international flights as they were getting to the international destinations, then saying "See ya later."

[Snowcat]

Speedy737. Stay away from them. Most of the Capt. Expats gone by the end of last year, only FO expats hanging there til they get some experience . Last year there was even a FO exodus.

[pettycash]

currently working in lion i can give you this info for expat FO's.

basic pay 30million + flight/duty time usually 40-50million a month.
free transport to and from airport
hours 70-100 hours flight a month
12 days holiday
12 days leave for medical
12 days leave for license renewal
so play it right and u get 36 days annual leave


saying that scheduling is a b*tch and you will work 5-6 days a week. only ever 1 day off at a time and chopping and changing frequently so planning a trip away with your GF/Wife is impossible. planning anything is impossible.

schedules are usually 3 days 2 nights away, or max 4 days 3 nights away. occasional 1 day schedules.

hope that helps

[Scott_T]

Hi guys,

I am an experienced FO B737 looking for somewhere I can stay and get a command and lion air seems to fit the bill, could someone please PM me the e-mail address of where I could send my CV thanks in advance.

[de facto]

I am not sure if you would want to stay there....all guys i know that flew for this outfit left at the earliest chance.
If you want a quick and deserved upgrade,why dont you knock at ryan air door?they are hiring DEP now..
A little mouse told me their training is gooood and upgrade process quite well structured:E

[Speedy737]

Thanks everyone!! Dont really want to fly for them, but looking at options.

[latetonite]

If you do not want to fly for them, what in the world makes you think they will train you as a captain?

[tiger02]

Gee, my basic was 21 million and 4 million for housing.....transport only if they botheted to turn up...never saw more than 45 million in a month....not one contract is the same for expat fo...stay away for your own sanity:ugh:

[Saayang]

Speedy, do you have any pic hours on 73? You need that for your validation.
And joining lion does not guarantee you captaincy, since i know fo flying here since 2009, 2010 and still on the rhs

[jetjockey696]

Thats what I heard... 21million for basic... etc.

knowing lion they want everything cheap... I surprised to hear they paid 30million.. the local captain basic is 45million..

No wonder expats are hated in Lion...

[Aleboni]

Will they open again for foreign pilots without experience?

[Speedy737]

I'm not the one looking for an upgrade. I'm a 37 FO looking at options. Haven't flown in a while now. I actually want to fly bush in Indo, but it's tough getting a job like that with only airline hours!!

[khaosanroad]

Do they still plan to take delivery of sevral A320s in 2014?

[Silver Spur]

Post #5 not so true. Just met one Dutch Effo at SIN. Transitting in between flights. ( yes, he was onnduty )

[B739ER]

Need 250hr on type (NG) to join. This is a requirement to get an Indonesian validation.

Expect several months from arrival to start line training. Salary for expat FO is average of close to 50 mill a month, this include housing, flt hrs, etc. Expect around 1000 hr a year (1050 limit).
Highly unstable roster, but you fly 4 on, 1 off, with about 15 nights in hotel a month. Scheduling is really a big mess. You can't really call it a roster. Ppl pay scheduling for OK schedules, so the rest get pushed around more.
Two weeks off a year, but additional 12+12 for medical lpc of your local license.

A few wrong statements earlier in the thread.
You get a multi reentry visa and can come and go as you wish. No need to get signed off. You do international flights. You are not expected to overfly hrs. Scheduling might try, but its easy to say no and the chiefs expect you to refuse. Transport is now OK and taxi is reimbursed if required.

[Speedy737]

Thanks very much. Very informative post. Still waiting to hear from them after I responded to the mail they sent me.

[Scott_T]

I have sent prathma an e-mail aswel as I have applied before but still no response....

[Scott_T]

PS how will they conduct interviews will we be expected to fly to Jakarta or will it be via skype etc? What were interviews for DEFO like in the past?

[tiger02]

Gee i was flying 5 on 1 off or 6 on 1 off most months, hit max hours refused to do more then got phone call from chief asking "why you no fly anymore" just another normal day in life of Lion..:ugh:

[aircupidon]

Scott, expect 2 standardization sim 1 Loft and 1 check with a lionair ccp.
Thats all

[B739ER]

Yes tiger, it used to be that way. But for the ppl asking here, its more relevant how it is, instead of how it used to be. Now it is 4/1 with intention of making it 4/2.

[Scott_T]

@aircupidon where are these sims conducted ,jakarta? are these the assesment sims? or are you offered a contract based on skype interview online tests like other airlines? I am still waiting for a response from them, I would actually enjoy maybe a year out there...

[pilotchute]

739ER,

How can they possibly go 4/2 when they are desperately under crewed?

Your saying you don't have to do over 100 a month (expats) yet I know local crews do this almost every month of the year.

I also want to meet the guys making 50 juta a month in the hand.

[B739ER]

Scott: Those are done after hire and in Lions B739ER sim's.

pilotchute:
- Not so much under crewed any more. Many standby every day, but besides that, the idea is to give more flights per active day, thus less active crew's needed. Same amount of crews are needed though.
- I didnt say 100 hrs. 110 is the limit and in more than 2 years in the company, I havent over flown any month. And now its less demand than half a year ago. That said, maybe some do, but its easy to stay within the limits.
- My contract give me around 54-55 for 110 hrs and around 50 for approx 100. Most expats, except indians, get that. I think your info is old.

[pilotchute]

739ER,

You are very lucky to have a contract that pays what it does. Sorry, I know the limit is 110 a month for part 121 operators in Indo.

Much of my info comes from Lion crew (locals) who I get to speak to on a fairly regular basis. From what I'm told the local FO wage is nowhere near 50 juta a month (I thought you got local terms?).

Lion have a guy going into the DGCA almost everyday lobbying for the end of the 250 hour rule. There will be some changes in DGCA management very soon so anything could happen!

[B739ER]

Ok, well that explains a lot.
No, expats are not on local contracts. Except indians, expats are payed far more. But also have travel cost and upkeep of national licence/medical that locals dont have.
And the locals generally have lower standard, and they may accept illigal stuff more than westerners.
As far as the 250 hr rule, the gov intended to force the industry to educate locals for the good jobs in the cockpit. It seams to work, as the airlines now train a lot of locals. They are cheaper labour. Also they stay for a much longer period. I doubt the rule will go away.

[aircupidon]

Scott, you will be doing the sim in bandara mas, then, you will wait more or less 5 to 6 months before flying if you take in account kitas, mandatory training, and others stuffs....
We all know that the 250h rule will be lifted (for lion) once Rusdi become minister of transportation...

[pilotchute]

aircupidon,

Are you sure Rusdi wants to become minister of transport? I get the impression he wants to be the minister of agriculture.

You would think that going to the transportation ministry would be a natural progression but maybe he has a different agenda?

I think its pretty clear that the head of DGCA licencing is responsible for the rules that have taken effect in the last 18 months. If you want to be precise they are just directives. They aren't written into law so really they aren't worth the paper they are written on. Problem is when you have a position like the head of DGCA licencing you can just make sh#t up as you feel and everyone will follow it because you know, everyone is scared to speak up for fear of losing their job and/or status.

[Speedy737]

So Indians are not considered expats when working for Lion in Indo?? That's odd! So how much would an Indian FO earn a month then?

[basersweden]

hi! I'm currently flying the 737 classic, do I have any chance with Lion or do I have to get NG hours first?

[lilflyboy262...2]

Because of many reasons Speedy.

One being that they have been at the controls of many of the accidents here in Indonesia. While I'm not pointing the finger at them outright, as there has been an Indonesian captain sitting in the left hand seat... some of the stories that has come out about the 200hr wonders in the right hand seat has been mind boggling.

The other reason about the poor conditions is that Lion knows that they can offer Indian pilots those wages and they will take them without batting an eyelid, just so they can get ahead. Or at least get a job.
You only need to look back at a lot of the Indian pilots who offered to continue to work for free in India while some of the airlines were struggling. Just so they could build that jet experience.

[captjns]

You only need to look back at a lot of the Indian pilots who offered to continue to work for free in India while some of the airlines were struggling. Just so they could build that jet experience.

Not too racist... Are you lilflyboy262...2:rolleyes:

And you're wondering why you can't land a job?

[Scott_T]

So when you are waiting around for 5-6 months for license validation etc are you paid? can you just go home to your home country?

[Speedy737]

I understand what you mean lilflyboy, however the fact that they've been at the controls when things have gone wrong does not justify a lower salary than their counterparts!! Get rid of someone if their not competent! Does the airline think that substandard pilots are acceptable if their paid local wages? Not saying much for the locals then, is it!!
And at captjns....I don't think lilflyboy was being racist. I'm an Indian and not one bit offended by what he says. What he says holds true for some, not all, but it isn't only India, and Indians willing to work for free or p2F!
The way I see it is simple. If I join as an expat, pay me accordingly. If Lion won't do that I'll simply look elsewhere. If the airline is paying someone based on the colour of their skin, then it's them that are racist!!

[hifly787]

Lilflyboy you are wrong .No Indians flew for free . They just continued to fly hoping the company will pay some day or till they landed a paying job eg KFA

[lilflyboy262...2]

In what way was I being racist? Pull your head in mate.
And I do have a job. A very good one in fact. And the pay is better than the Lion Air F/Os.
Hifly787, how is that not working for free?

Speedy can see and understand what I was getting at. I wasn't making anything up, only stating fact. Its very much a case of the minority spoiling it for the majority. In no way did I say that all Indians are like this.

But since I'm a European male, lets play the race card shall we? Easiest way to discredit someone.

[Scott_T]

has anyone heard back from lion air re new FO positions

[pilotchute]

Lion air don't have "FO" positions available they have "Capt upgrade" positions. 3000 total with 1000NG time required.

They say its bonded but I suspect you will have to pay up front.

[jetjockey696]

and be bonded for 5 LONNNNNNNG years. working 4days and 1 day off for 5 years with 12 business days annual year with LOOOOOOOOW salary.. i think its about 3300USD for salary PLUS flight hours.. take home around 6000usd as a junior capt through CAPTAIN UPGRADE PROGRAM.. LOCAL PAY AND CONDITIONS.

BTW you dont qualify for the signing bonus like a local. Never recieve 9K USD salary like a qualify expat capt.

ONE set FCO ticket per year (you,wife and children) on LION network (LION ONLY), NOT BATIK OR THAI,MALAY LION). NO ID travel, no interline..

if you leave before 5yrs... if your new company requires a letter from LION or does a background calling Lion HR.. it will cost you.... monthly basic salary X the number of months you have left with lion..

if you decide its for you... use R**hworth.

[Speedy737]

Nope, haven't heard anything yet.

[Swanrider]

Jetjockey696, thanks.
So it's 4 days on with one day off?
No time to enjoy life away from Jakarta or go diving then?
The Rishworst contract on offer has it as 3 months on then just 2 weeks break followed by rotations of 2.5 months on / 3 weeks off for the remaining contract time. True?
Accom is provided or $750USD / month. What's that like? Liveable? Tiny box to live in or nice place possible?
They say Transport is provided too/from work, yes?
Bond $14,000USD upfront to Rishworst which they say you get back each month of the last 2 years contract as Captain ($600), making a monthly wage of $7600USD/ month... not much as a B737NG skipper on max hours and minimum time off (no lifestyle).
Multiple sector days too I guess?
How is the fatigue in such tense and condensed airspace also?

[smiling monkey]

Multiple sector days too I guess?
How is the fatigue in such tense and condensed airspace also?

Fatigue? What fatigue? ..

http://news.aviation-safety.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/PK-LKS-550x334.jpg

[jetjockey696]

Swanrider... Fatigue.. is normally in Lion.. if you not fatigue you not working hard enough.. As of now.. most expat experienced captains are working up 90hrs before they recieve 9k USD. Local pilot only getting paid 6300usd -7000usd(+100hrs) . NO ID TRAVEL. ONLY 1 FREE TICKET FOR FAMILY and Lion will only pay for your work permit and exit/entry permit. If your family comes to JKt.. you need to pay for each family member..

Normally sectors are from 3 to 4 sextors per day. you get the occasional 5/6 landing per day working 4 days 1 day off.. most time flying into Class C airports during the raining season..then staying in 0-3star motel/hotel even some places guest house.. no fancy hotels.. rest normal rest hrs in Lion is 9hrs.. last time I heard with unstable roster, you never follow your montly roster. always last minute changes.

Btw Jakarta is NOT cheap.. 750usd is getting a shoe box apartment IN A NICE AREA.. you can get a nice house in the suburbs. You need to pay upfront for a year.. which doesnt not include maintenace fees etc..

Its a good place for pus*ies to toughend up..