Yes to night flights at Queenstown

[aerostatic]

Yes to night flights at Queenstown | Radio New Zealand News (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/243561/yes-to-night-flights-at-queenstown)

Queenstown Airport is to introduce night flights after a two-year investigation to prove the safety case.
The Civil Aviation Authority has approved the proposal, which will require pilots to use satellite technology to fly in darkness through the Southern Alps.
The airport will need to widen its runway and install special lights on the mountains surrounding Queenstown.
But airport chief executive Scott Paterson said being able to fly in and out of Queenstown after dark was a game changer.
Currently in winter, planes have to take off by 5.30pm.
Mr Paterson said that did not work for skiers who wanted to return to Australia after a full day on the slopes.
"It aligns very clearly with the Tourism Industry Association goals of improving connectivity for New Zealand with the rest of the world. Currently you can get to one of the long haul hubs late in the evening but you can't get to Queenstown."
The cost of the plan will be $10 million. Airlines are now considering it.

[Sunfish]

After driving via Cardrona over the crown range to Queenstown, I think I understand the problem.


I cant post my photo but I was standing at the lookout watching a Jetstar aircraft flying down the valley on approach to Queenstown.....below me.

[waren9]

does the resource management act or local council have anything to say about noise?

[Ollie Onion]

No resource consent or local council problems as the airport already has the consents to operate up until 22:00. This was more a process to convince CASA and the CAA that it is safe to operate in there after dark. The recommended infrastructure changes seem pretty sensible to me.

- widen to 45 m
- an approach lighting system to be installed
- off airport guidance lighting to be installed
- each operator to be individually approved
- specific pilots who have been trained within each approved airline.

They are saying the first commercial flights to be winter 2016.

[waren9]

me too ollie

[Wally Mk2]

I really fail to see any major problem here. Remember when we used to have diff Mins for day & night Ops years ago? They changed that as what's the diff between being in cloud with zero ref to outside as against night time (in cloud or otherwise)? Nothing.
Often it's easier to have the req'd Viz at night than it is in daytime.
Cairns is an Eg, we come damned close to high terrain in & out of that place, being doing so for years.
It's more about A/C performance than anything else.

Improving the dromes conditions will help reduce the risks but it won't stop man from flying into a mountain in a perfectly serviceable plane day or night!

Wmk2

[Ollie Onion]

From a union point of you it was the visual manoeuvring (not approach or terrain on approach) required once visual that they were concerned about. NZAPLA wanted higher minima and some approach lighting for commercial night ops. These improvements go further that this which is good. Sometimes off the RNP you do require some aggressive movements to gain the profile, the more ques we have at night the better. :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

I understand that but there has always been some maneuvering involved in any NPA App some more than others but any ground Viz aids will be of more benefit.
I've flown into that joint in the good 'ole days, kept my eyes closed most of the time:)


Wmk2

[XPT]

real cost is probably higher much higher & who wants to pay that ? Certainly not the airlines.


Apparently NZ ski numbers are down, way down on last year, told due to price increases.


In Brisbane Sunday mail Escape section Flight Centre has a full page advert on last page.


It says Queenstown return from only $763 (nothing included except taxes) & that supposed to be a deal.


On same page it says LAX for $1091. I actually rang & they said that was for Fiji Airways, but Qantas, Virgin, Delta only $100-$200 more around same time.


People must look at that & say only $300 more to LAX return. No wonder NZ numbers are down.

[Sunfish]

Wally, have you actually seen the approach into Queenstown? Flying down a valley without room to turn.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cNCQlCgb0SQ

[Capt Fathom]

Flying down a valley without room to turn

Why would you want to turn?

[Wally Mk2]

'Sunny' I have seen a couple of YouTube Vids on Queenytown (great to observe) & as I mentioned have actually flown into there a couple of times but not in the 'Bus' on that App.

Sure it's a higher risk App than most but the plane doesn't know that it's just the drivers behind the steering wheels:-)

As I have mentioned b4 it's more about A/C perf than anything else where the risk is.

Anyway with 2day's modern tech stuff this shouldn't be rocket science at all, it's more risk assessment stuff.


Wmk2

[On Track]

The move to nighttime RNP approaches at Queenstown is a sensible development.

RNP by day has proved its worth over a number of years and I know of no reason why it shouldn't be just as successful once the sun goes down.

The airport will require considerable upgrading before night ops can start, and some of these improvements (runway widening for example) can only make daytime ops even safer.

There will still be occasions when aircraft can't get in because of weather. The problem usually is not the cloud base but turbulence preventing stabilised approaches. There was such a day last week when I think there were more missed approaches and diversions than landings.

[BNEA320]

lots of money for what benefit ? Flights to ZQN from OZ will be cut next year, due to large drop in demand & Australian fed budget cuts.

[framer]

I think if you lived in NZQN the reason would be quite obvious.....especially if you owned a business. The business owners don't care how much the tickets cost, they just need the numbers to keep growing ( as they have) so that they sell more of their products ( hamburgers, pizza, coffee, panadol etc etc etc).

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Stop being so soft ! You've clearly not seen the approachs into Innsbruck and Chambery.

[XPT]

airport open more hours doesn't mean more flights, it may just mean flights are more spread out.


For flights to take off in evening means they must fly in at that time as well (no airline wants aircraft to sit on ground for more than ~30 mins, especially at QN where they might get stuck if weather comes in).


Who wants to arrive at ZQN at 1900 ? (except maybe a few kiwis from AKL, WLG or CHC) departing after work that day. Does help departures from Australia.


It would help delays though. At present I think aircraft MUSt depart 45 mons prior to sunset. If eg. a delay at OZ end, aircraft could still take off with knowledge of no effective curfew.

[On Track]

XPT, I'm not so sure about that.

In summer flights are still happening at 8pm local. Local business people complain that in winter they can't do a full day's work in Auckland or Wellington and get back home the same day.

And spreading out the international arrivals would be a good thing. On weekends in the ski season the airport gets quite congested as all the flights from Australia arrive within a short period during the afternoon.

BNE1320, passenger numbers to ZQN have been growing steadily for years now, especially international passengers, who are not necessarily Australian. Why do you think there will suddenly be a big drop in demand?

[HeSaidWhat]

Agree with "On Track". This is one of the most studied ports with arguably the most risk management assessments of similar airports.

[nitpicker330]

Yep a crock of BS.

As Wally says the Aircraft doesn't know it's dark and in cloud!!

Just more OHS crap.

[slamer.]

Someone's showing their ignorance ...!

[Sunfish]

The problem is apparently what happens if the aircraft has to return if it can't climb out to LSALT.

[BNEA320]

wholesalers are saying NZ skiing packages sold ex Australia are down, way down due to price increases.


Have a look at airfares BNE/ZQN/BNE. For only a few hundred $ more you can go to LAX.


Also, Australian ski resorts are getting more business as people can & are driving instead of flying.


Look at NSW, you can no longer fly to Cooma & who would bother flying SYD/CBR & still have over 2 hour transfer. It would be quicker to drive.


Similarly Mt Hotham has lost all flights this year as well. QF flew SYD/MHU on 44 returns last year.


The loss of OOM & MHU options should imply an increase in pax to ZQN but it hasn't. Maybe the economy & budgetary cutbacks have scared people into not spending money.

[nitpicker330]

Really? So how can my sister company fly A330's DAY and NIGHT into Kathmandu airport in the Himalayas using old fashioned VOR approaches? ( we are not yet approved to fly RNP's )
Plenty of big rocks around there I'm here to tell ya...:eek:

Now QF and NZ have got super accurate RNP approaches using 2 independent GPS systems, FMS, IRS and land based Nav Aids as well to fly between the hills in Queenstown during daytime. Fit the proper lighting and what's the problem with going in there at night assuming the cloud base and visibility are acceptable for night?

Like we've said, the Aircraft doesn't know it's dark......I assume the crew can land in the dark once acceptable visual reference is assured using runway lights can't they?

Like I said, a load of tosh.

More Australia NZ OHS overkill.

[Oxidant]

and land based Nav Aids as well

An RNP approach does not use land based Nav Aids........

[27/09]

Oxidant: An RNP approach does not use land based Nav Aids........

Hmmmm, I think an RNP approach can use land based aids if they're available as part of the nav solution.

[nitpicker330]

Yes BUT I was referring to Kathmandu which DOES use the VOR for approaches DAY and NIGHT into an Airport 4,300' AMSL with rather large mountains all around.

VNKT has:-
VOR A--a 90 degree offset circling approach for up to CAT D day and night
VOR B--also a 90 degree offset circling approach but only CAT A B day and night, CAT C day only
VOR 02--straight in 4.4 deg approach day and night
RNAV ( RNP ) 02 day and night

My sister company can only use the VOR, not yet approved for RNP.

Queenstown cannot be that hard to do at night for a qualified competent crew using ultra accurate RNP approaches.

[waren9]

nitpicker the sh vor was off airport by some miles. not sure the vnkt example is analogous

[belowMDA]

I'm not going to sit here and say that Queenstown is the hardest place to operate into in the world because I'm sure it's not. However those that have such a cavalier attitude to the place probably haven't spent much time in there. There is no one thing that you can say that stands out to make the place dangerous. But when you add all the factors up (I'm not going to list them because those that know, know) it is an airport that commands your respect and attention.
Night ops are different to just being IMC but when prepared for properly I believe they can be carried out safely enough.

[Oxidant]

OK, I will use your direct quote then... (Nitpicker)

Now QF and NZ have got super accurate RNP approaches using 2 independent GPS systems, FMS, IRS and land based Nav Aids as well to fly between the hills in Queenstown during daytime.

For the Queenstown approach (RNP AR), one deselects VOR/DME updating in the FMGC as part of the procedure.

So, please don't compare apples with pears!

Oh, BTW, I have operated into both Innsbruck and Chambery, in the Bus & Boeing (non RNP), none of these places should be treated lightly.

Good night!

[nitpicker330]

Oooh testy little fella ain't ya.:}

Yes I'm aware I said that, I'm also aware that the traditional ground based aids aren't used for the approach. I'm also aware there are other ground based approaches for the airport that are not RNP.

Anyway all I'm trying to say is that RNP is sooooooo accurate it should be ok day and night for an experienced competent crew with appropriate lighting aids on the ground to help them manoeuvre visually in suitable weather. :ok:

Good night to you to..:)

[Oxidant]

Oooh testy little fella ain't ya.

No, not really. :}

Oh, there are two "o's" in too. :E

(Good morning!)

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

After driving via Cardrona over the crown range to Queenstown, I think I understand the problem.


I cant post my photo but I was standing at the lookout watching a Jetstar aircraft flying down the valley on approach to Queenstown.....below me.


That used to be a fun road to drive over....once upon a time....back when it was a gravel road with no crash barriers protecting motorists from the huge drops over the side. It resulted in bugger-all traffic on the road (the tourists were too scared to drive over it and went the long way around via the Kawerau Gorge instead, and many Kiwis likewise avoided it like the plague), which meant that those of us who actually know how to drive fast on narrow, windy gravel roads could get between Queenstown and Wanaka (and vice-versa) in super-quick time. Then, they upgraded the road, and now it is a slow trip due to all the road maggots (camper vans) and slow-drivers who crawl over the hill.

[Sunfish]

I confess to being a road maggot - Kea VW diesel campervan. Loved every minute of NZ South Island.

[Jack Ranga]

Man, I love Queenstown. And the prospect of getting a half day or full days skiing in before hopping on a flight would be gold. And if it's now as expensive as what you're saying I'd use the opportunity to ski Japan.........until the price in Queenstown became comparable or reasonable, market forces!

I'd be very careful which airline I chose to fly in there at night on ;)

[c100driver]

Welcome back Jack!

[Jack Ranga]

Why thank you :ok:

[haughtney1]

Feel the love Jack....welcome back :ok:

[Ozgrade3]

As a humble VOR/NDB guy, can someone explain in simple terms how you monitor the flight path of the aircraft as it does the procedural orbit on the RNP approach. Do you match up your turning path indicator on the PFD with the track as you turn. I know its all autopilot driven, but what happens if the autopilot has a failure mid turn. How do you stay within the prescribed turn radius.

[always inverted]

Nav scales that tell you how far left or right, up and down. If you loose the autopilot, select the other one...
But seriously, you can hand fly to within the tolerances for the departure and the approach if you have to, even when you loose a donk, like in the sim.

[Jack Ranga]

Thanks Haughtney, I've finished the required counselling & community service :ok:

[Chris2303]

When it was gravel there used to be a rental car ban on the road too.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Actually, if you had read the fine print on rental vehicle hire agreements back then, it stated that driving the vehicle on the Crown Range Road, Skippers Canyon Road, or the Ball Hut Road (in Mount Cook National Park) was prohibited unless prior written authorisation was obtained from the vehicle rental company. I always used to ask for written authorisation to drive on the Crown Range Road whenever I hired a vehicle and was likely to be in the Queenstown-Wanaka area, and I was always given that written permission after convincing them that I was skilled enough to drive their vehicle on that particular road.

[John Hill]

More dangerous roads of the time had no restrictions, example the Milford Sound road but at least caravans were prohibited on there.

[ranmar850]

That used to be a fun road to drive over....once upon a time....back when it was a gravel road with no crash barriers protecting motorists from the huge drops over the side. It resulted in bugger-all traffic on the road (the tourists were too scared to drive over it and went the long way around via the Kawerau Gorge instead, and many Kiwis likewise avoided it like the plague), which meant that those of us who actually know how to drive fast on narrow, windy gravel roads could get between Queenstown and Wanaka (and vice-versa) in super-quick time. Then, they upgraded the road, and now it is a slow trip due to all the road maggots (camper vans) and slow-drivers who crawl over the hill.

On our first visit to Unzud in '82(?) we were in a hired Bedford (yes!) Newmans (remember them?) camper van. We took that road, boy, didn't she struggle:) Got to the top of the pass with a leaking radiator and busted rear spring shackle, which caused the axle to slide along the spring, needing some well-offcentre steering to keep her straight:ooh:Consulted the rental agreement while enjoying the view, and discovered we were on one of only two roads we weren't allowed on in the entire South Island. An interesting drive down the other side into Queenstown and repairs. Since sealing, i've ridden it on a motorbike, the only way to travel it
http://ranmar.smugmug.com/Travel/New-Zealand-Easter-06/i-TNnPt54/0/L/New%20Zealand%20April%202006%20169-L.jpg

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

It's definitely an interesting road.


A few weeks ago, I was driving from Wanaka over to Queenstown to catch a flight to Wellington and I stopped up the top to admire the view, including along the centreline of the runway at Queenstown Airport in the distance. While I was standing there, an Airbus A320 flew past about 1,000ft below on the approach to Queenstown. There probably aren't too many places around where you can look down on a jet airliner way below you like that while standing on terra firma.

[tryhard1]

Is the concern for flying at night that icing could be more of an issue with the colder temps?

Looking at the video's out there it looks like it's got the chance for some serious cold weather!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sik1oASF9mw

[On Track]

Queenstown can get cold at night but so does Canberra.

Having lived in both places I suspect Canberra gets more frosts and fogs than Queenstown.