Stop all negoiation except Rostering practises

[Pilotxxx]

In my humble opinion, I think the AOA should stop all the negoiation with the company. No more talks on payrise, housing, HKPA, basings. Instead, let the market forces do the work. The introduction of housing many years ago was market driven(no experienced pilot want to come to HK without it). Same with the HKPA (At one time, they couldn't even get enough ab-initial candidates). What else can the company do? I think the market will decide. At the end of the day, we will never get more than what the office workers are getting. Any why should we.

Focus should be on RP itself only, without any link to housing, HKPA, basings or anything else. The company would then lose most of its leverages. This is the only way we can possibly get an solid RP that can hopefully minimize long term fatigue, and get the lifestyle back for some of us. Now the company wants us to commit to 3 crews LRO and 2 crew OZ, the sweetener they give is a modicum payrise. If we take away payrise, and everything else from the formula, what else would the company give? If they want 3 crews LRO, they need to show us that the new RP would somehow protect, or minimize fatigue.(eg. more rests before and after the duty), but not with a 0.5 % net payrise. Working less for the same wages sounds good to me.

So no more talks on anything other than RP. The company knows we are not the happiest bunch.

[monster330]

Dumbest post in a long time.

PAY. Only PAY.

Then the other stuff.

But now.... Only PAY

[Kitsune]

Idiotic. 'Market forces' are what the company are using to shaft you with... there's an endless queue of tosspots in Oz and the EU who'll come and take your job for the conditions you think are such crap....

[dartman748]

"Pilotxxx", piss off. Its pay, and only pay! Pay is not tied to RP, housing, productivity, or anything else. I am happy to talk about the rest AFTER we have addressed the pay issue... :mad:

[fly123456]

So your suggestion is to negotiate RP. Not pay.

And in the end, we will have... same RP (or worse) and no pay raise?

Thanks for the advice, dude!

[Loopdeloop]

This is a first for me, I agree with monster330! :ok:

[Pilotxxx]

If you believe the union can negotiate a better pay, they certain then can negotiate a better RP. Dude, the only difference is they can give us a modicum pay rise, and a worsen RP(which is what the company is proposing now), but they can't give us a better RP, and a pay cut(unless they force everyone of us to sign a new contract). So, all we have to do is get us a better RP. Even with the same pay, we will be better off.

Basically, pay can only stay the same or increases (unless we switch COS) But RP can get better or worse.

For some of you thinking about inflation, let the market force do the work for you. Just get us a solid RP, and we will be better off in the long run

[Loopdeloop]

No. We have adequate RP's already but our pay has been going backwards compared to inflation for many years.
Concentrate on pay, the rest can wait.

[BillytheKid]

Loopdeloop No. We have adequate RP's already

You can't be serious?!:=

[Loopdeloop]

Yes I am. Room for improvement obviously, but once we've got pay sorted we can then negotiate RP's.
They'll come to us with "We want 3-man LRO etc," we give them a list of what we'd like in return. More stability and min credit days to allow for better rest to cope with the extra fatigue. A reserve system that won't put you in an aircraft for 12 hours having had no opportunity to plan your rest etc.

We don't swap money for conditions. It never works as they just keep pay below inflation until they've got the conditions for free. Once you've lost benefits/conditions etc, they're gone for ever.

[Flap10]

The guys that place pay rise ahead of RPs are the ones that have a fairly stable roster, ie based guys, or the HKG guys on the 777. I can assure you fly a HKG Airbus roster and you will realize just how inadequate the current RPs are. I for one would like RPs negotiated first. To negotiate a pay rise first is only going to undermine subsequent negotiations as the majority who are blind and greedy will appease to management. The end result will be a far worse RPs than the current one.

[Pilotxxx]

I seriously don't think it's the intention of the AOA to negotiate pay along with other items. However, that is inevitable. As soon as the pay rise is in the equation, the company would always wanted something from us in return. This is just like a the parents telling their kids "you can only play video games if you go to tutoring school, and help us wash the dishes" So how should the kid negotiate with the parents? The kid should say, "I Don't want to play video games. I just want to finish my homework and study hard. If you want me to wash the dishes, that may come in the expense of me having less time to study."

Now we know what the company wants, please don't let them lure us into a worsen RP, no matter what the company say. If then want 3 man LRO or 2 man OZ through the night, fine, how about we get the 5-4-3 back? or something in that line. I am not saying we should get 10 days off after a long haul, but certainly not 2 man oz and back, and then min rest, follow by a split duty because it's legal. A great man has once said there are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. Let's not make the same mistake again. The 5-4-3 rule is gone now, and what did we get instead of that. I don't even want to know. Its disgusting. Get us a solid RP, that's our only protection.

[404 Titan]

Flap10

I'm Hong Kong based on the A330 and my roster is, to put it bluntly, f****d but I believe pay is the number one priority and should be dealt with first and foremost . I still can't believe the AOA committee actually went along with the company in combining RP and Pay. We have been here before and it didn't go well. When will we ever learn. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[broadband circuit]

Devil's advocate maybe I am being, but I understand that the NC wanted to talk pay only, but the managers declared it was not a stand alone issue.

As much as it pains me to see a negotiation that is beyond the simple pay only that I wanted & voted or in the CC motion, the NC seem to have made a judgement call that they had a choice between definitely getting nowhere with pay only & maybe getting somewhere with an integrated negotiation.

Despite what some people think, I believe we have a pretty damn good negotiating team, who are quite astute at filtering management's bullsh1t.

I was at the focus night tonight (were you???) and although I'm not happy with the progress of discussions, I took away a renewed confidence in our negotiating team & their efforts.

Well done chaps.

[404 Titan]

broadband circuit

Unfortunately I'm down route and was unable to attend. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost admiration for the negotiating committee and the time and effort they put in but the company demanding that they would only negotiate multiple items at the sane time should have raised alarm bells. It is a classic negotiating tactic of companies dealing with organised employees. Cathay didn't invent it and won't be the last company to use it.

[crwkunt roll]

I was there too, I can say I'm happy Brad is on the NC, very articulate and clued up. Horhey however, you talk too much without saying anything.

[Pogie]

They'll come to us with "We want 3-man LRO etc," we give them a list of what we'd like in return.

Screw 3-man Long Haul! I don't care what they offer in return! Anyone that would agree to that is a moron!

[Oasis]

Did the groundstaff have to gave something up when they got their 5%?
No they didn't.

[Trafalgar]

....sorry, but I have to say it: pilotxxx....please, have someone who is familiar with the English language and associated grammar proof read your posts before hitting the 'send' button. It is too painful to deal with your posts as they are currently presented.

As for the NC and their dealings with the company: simply tell the company that as the ground staff were awarded 5% without any negotiation, that is our bottom line, and that does not even address the previous years of 'no inflation' pay awards (or lack thereof). If they won't agree to that as a base, then simply tell them that the aircrew will have to start honouring their contracts to the letter, and not a letter more. I'm so tired of the utter disrespect that this management treats us with. No job is worth this sort of contempt over the long run, and this is certainly no career.

[Oasis]

Fully agree with you there, Trafalgar. Although I do think you should offer your proof reading services to pilotxxx :-)

I got the feeling back then that they didn't give us anything, because we were about to negotiate the salaries ourselves.
5% should be the starting point.

However, IF 4, 3, 3 % for the next three years is the offer that was given, then that's not to shabby. (10% approx pay rise over 3 years)
I'd rather have 10% over three, than 5% over one.

3 man to Europe, how would they implement that? Px or longer stay down route?
Doesn't seem efficient or helpful for our pilot group.
They should pay more for that, way more, crew cost savings should be huge for them.

[Pilotxxx]

Yeah it's painful, but you did alright Trafalgar.

The ground staff were awarded 5% because there is a high rate of attrition, not because the company wanted to.

How would they implement 3 man LRO. Here is the answer, 4 man to Europe, 24 hrs layover, and 3 man coming back to HK. Then we can have our two days off in HK.