CX want a fight, why?

[SloppyJoe]

It is pretty obvious that management want a fight, they want us to enter contract compliance. Changes to staff travel, sickness policy, Manchester, A days and now an offer so low with the kicker of reduced crew on flights that the AOA are hinting at industrial action.

I am happy to do my bit but would like someone smarter than me to explain why a company who seem to always be 2-3 steps ahead of us want a fight? They know where this is heading so it is my assumption that they see some sort of advantage.

[SweepTheLeg]

They want one. I say bring it. This is the last straw.

If they want to burn this place down so be it.

[Glass Half Empty]

Another year of poor results maybe? Blame it on the pesky pilots!

[SMOC]

Sign or be fired contract in your mailbox wiping out expat terms!

HKPA sweetener suitable for remaining LEPs and DEFOs, who will happily sign away leaving their expat brothers out in the cold (or humid wet), to accept or move on.

Standard Operating Procedures for the most caring company!

[quadspeed]

They want a fight because it would allow them to do things even they can't defend in civilized times. Reminds me of a certain Russian president who's playing by the same book these days.

A wiser man then me said "don't ever start a war you're not prepared to win". I'm afraid we may be about to do just that.

[SMOC]

Hundreds would walk, without the housing there is no point being here.
And they need expansion now to lock in the slots they want at HKIA.

The new and improved HKPA will be a measured amount suitable to temp enough to stay, the ones who do leave will be leaving aviation for good otherwise they will take an even greater pay cut to join the bottom of a new seniority list.

The basing closures / freighter crew HK conditions have been a long term experiment to work out how many will leave and how many will stay when no housing is available, it'll be perfectly matched to to rid CX of expat terms (until the next managers find new ways to drive down COS'14)

Included in the new deal will be more hours less crew allowing them to ride through the short term pain.

Anyone know the exact dates that CC started and the new contracts ended up in the mailboxes in 2001 and then the firings?

Time to re-read The 49ers - The True Story: John Warham: 9781846245879: Amazon.com: Books

[The FUB]

Where's the fast ball coming from next? Beware of the diversionary tactic.

Swire's perception is that the Paris embarrassment is down to the pilots and AOA action in contacting the French labor department. It's payback time and we are on the hit list, they want a fight, it will not be clean and the management will have to satisfy themselves that we lost and have learnt our lesson.

Who's willing to work L days now?

[Synchronize]

Oh there will always be a few even after this who will continue to work G and L days

[SOPS]

I don't work there, but years ago I aspired to. When I started out in aviation, a long time ago, Cathay was the airline to work for. It seems that once again, bean counters have taken over and a driving a race to the bottom. It's very very sad what has happened to the industry in general, I wonder if there will be a time in the future when people sit down and say, 'what the hell were those managers thinking'?

[fly123456]

They don't want a fight, they just know we will be too scared to do anything and so will accept any crap offer is on the table.

[Guru]

SMOC,

Before a divisive offer has been put in front of us by the Company for real, you are already making a derogatory generalisation about two groups of your colleagues, 'brothers' in your own words. You sure know how to inspire camaraderie and sense of brotherhood. If things really come to that, how would LEPs and DEFOs feel knowing they are foregoing personal gains so that people like you are treated fairly?

Which side are you on?

[Glass Half Empty]

Too much discussion on an open forum. Move it to the AOA website.

[SMOC]

I'm pointing out how CX fight, we better all realize it now rather than later.

Perhaps if the tactics are discussed at length even the worst case scenarios we might not get so emotionally blindsided when it comes from CX and we all start infighting.

I'd rather hear "this is exactly how those guys on pprune said it would go" perhaps we should try and unite rather than attack each other like CX want us to.

Forewarned is forearmed as they say.

And it's about time the newbies realized how far down the tube this company has gone.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Etihad apparently has approached the group as a whole (KA and CX pilots) with a proposal. Basically, CX is too hard to defeat financially in terms of a takeover, but Etihad want to A) expand faster than EK, and B- take over an asian hub. Being that it would be politically and financially difficult to do this the traditional way, they have come up with a new way that meets all of their objectives. That is, offer all CX/KA pilots their current contract +40%, as well as the ability to be based in one of the ports that they fly to, or have plans to fly to. This offer has to be accepted by at least 95% of the pilots in order for the deal to consummate. The effect is that everyone gives 3 months notice simultaneously. This is not industrial action at all, just giving notice. Everyone can leave in good graces, and CX will not have a reason to be mad at any one pilot - just the managers who did not prevent said scenario. Therefore, for the 15% who are too scared to make management mad, there is no downside - only upside. No need to work on your G day either, as you will finally be compensated properly. The only downside is that you may have to fly multiple airplanes (787/777, etc...). Contract goes up by a minimum of CPI each year, in addition to the YOS raise.

This is just a rumor, so don't flame me. It makes perfect sense though.

[Guru]

SMOC,

The reason why I posted is precisely because I was attacked - by you.

[SMOC]

Please explain how I attacked you? I'm merely created a method CX would use to divide the crew. I know LEPs and new joiners will sign a better deal, who wouldn't, crew have to realise that each group will protect itself, until one group shows solidarity for another to prove otherwise. This is the dilemma, it may be too late for expats to stand up for the minority as that minority is soon if not already the majority and CX engineered it this way years ago and I'm sure have new plans for the future. Hopefully one day we'll learn by our mistakes but it's doubtful.

An Ethiad hostile takeover sounds exciting!

[Long Dong Silver]

Where did you hear that Etihad rumour? Hard to believe... :ok:

[cxorcist]

Quadspeed,

You may be in possession of the biggest man-gina ever! You're assuming every pilot in the company is shriveled up like you. Best to keep your chin tucked in, you don't speak for me or any of the CX pilots with whom I fly.

[Shep69]

Lessee......

A happy worker is a productive worker. The company has just once again turned toward bona-fide profitability in a more and more competitive market--partially because of efficiency gains helped along by the people you want to keep happy. Happy workers go the extra mile sometimes when they don't have to. Happy workers sometimes answer the phone during time of crisis when they aren't required to. Happy workers sometimes go to work when strictly speaking they don't have to. Building animosity always hurts everyone and will ALWAYS hurt the bottom line in time. ALWAYS. And it's usually the decision makers who wind up unemployed when the bankrollers see the bottom line headed south.

Maybe someone is forgetting they need pilots to drive the shiny aluminum tubes, and that there's a bit of a shortfall given the greater quantity of nice shiny aluminum tubes on the way. Or that some of their staff still are on the books at their previous airline. Or that there's not a limitless supply of pilots to drive shiny aluminum tubes around when folks are unhappy at where they are.

I guess my suggestion would be to keep the place a happy place :):):) -- but it seems things are going in the other direction.

[cxorcist]

quadspeed,

At what do you think the housing payments from CX stop? The day the AOA announces CC? Just like that, "the pot of gold" stops flowing. No, I think not. Last time I checked, housing was enshrined in the CoS. You're the one who has not thought this through, "brother."

[Trafalgar]

Good grief.....not the brightest bunch of bulbs on the chandelier are we boys? CC is NOT industrial action. Let me understand this.....a HK court is going to agree with CX in suspending my housing based on the fact that I am ADHERING TO MY CONTRACT AS IT IS WRITTEN...?!! Really, that makes sense to you? I am happy to fulfill my contract to the LETTER. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues are happy to fulfill their contracts to the letter and beyond (G days....volunteering for commercials on TV and sim trials etc, etc:ugh:). You can do what you want, but if you show up on my flight having done something to undermine the collective best-interests of myself, my family and my colleagues, then you can further demonstrate your 'fine' qualities to me by operating 10 hours (with a break of course). Oh, and i'm sure that myself and/or the other FO will need a sector... Your choice. The time has come to pick sides. If you choose against me and my colleagues, then don't be surprised that you will be treated likewise (all within the terms of my contract of course! :E).

[quadspeed]

CC? That's what your going to make your grand stand with?

With no further plans for escalation when the counter-blows start?

You're quite right, they can't take away our housing allowance for CC. But they sure can if you strike.

[quadspeed]

And for christ sake get your facts staight. CC IS industrial action if it is coordinated.

[sirhcttarp]

Company is showing their hand...

They are reforming sick day policy to make sickout difficult...

However for jurisdictions where they can't change policy, due to statutory requirements they use closing the Manchester base as an example of keeping anyone on a base thinking of action in check...ie if you pull any stunts the base will close.

Add to that the A day withdrawal to mess with those on a base to keep their tails between their legs...

And you can see that the CX is gearing for industrial action ...

They are also asking for 3 man long haul and 2 man wocl ops to further strengthen their hand for future industrial action due to an already acute crew shortage...

They are trying to cover their only weakness... Crew shortage..

Don't let them

[cxorcist]

Canceling A days actually weakens CX's hand as now they have only 30 days free reserve from based crew annually. So while that is inconvenient for commuters, it is worse for CX than unlimited strings of A days. You can put a reserve day in front of every trip, but those go away with the sick note too. With all this new reserve on bases, pilots will be happy to book off the day of their trip, if not mere hours before sign on. (Same can be said of HKG crew who can't get proper rest in those crappy hotels before the flight) Getting that sick note can take the better part of a day you know:)

Cheer up. The possibilities are limitless.

[Sqwak7700]

Good job boys and girls, it is working! They are getting desperate and making threats that are self destructive, like revising the sickness policy.

They are down on the ground. Don't stand back and watch them recompose. Time to jump on top and finish them off. Lets bump that 17% up to 30% and you'll be staring at your pay rise by early June.

:ok:

[Bob Hawke]

The solution to a crew shortage is to employ more managers and create another department - what about the "People Department?":p

[raven11]

To many of the posters that pound their keyboards with conviction….a short history lesson for those that were not here in 1999.

At the time, emotions and stress had built up after several years during which we were at the receiving end of a constant stream of threats, pay cuts and reduced conditions; parallel to a concerted campaign by the Company to demean and diminish pilots among the other employees (Commitment Days).

Letters from the then DFO contained threats of employment action against those “perceived” to be working against the best interests of the Company and trainers were threatened. At that time, the AOA leadership was very strong and the association membership consisted of 95% of Cathay pilots.

An equally aggressive letter to the pilots from the AOA answered every threatening letter written by the Company. It was a non-stop, high stakes, roller coast ride of emotion.

Except for a sizeable group of members from Australia who were the living casualties of the industrial “dispute” that occurred in Australia in 1989, and which culminated in them loosing their jobs, the AOA membership was united, tired of the cuts to our contracts, and most pilots wanted to respond in some way.

Many of the Aussies, who had seen this movie before, were very reluctant to take part in any industrial action that would risk a repeat of them loosing their jobs. The Company sensed this weakness and aggressively nurtured this sentiment.

A point was reached where pilots were in no condition to be flying. The stress was immense and emotions had frayed to the point where people’s mental capacity was genuinely diminished and a boiling point was reached in 1999. Following a very emotional AOA meeting in TST, a sick out campaign began the next morning.

The two Company flight surgeons, having witnessed first hand the build up of stress, were extremely supportive of the pilots on the line. They issued sick notes to any and all….without question (and paid a price for their support after the event).

What happened next was quite illuminating. It began as a trickle, but then snowballed as a large number of B scalers began to report sick to support the small number of A scalers who initiated the action in Hong Kong (much to the relief of the A scalers who got the ball rolling).

The Company was quick to respond. We were eviscerated in the local press….which characterized us as spoiled and overpaid miscreants who were faking illness against a reasonable and just employer.

As days went by, and as airplanes were parked, a number of pilots elected to avoid, prevaricate, deceive, and do any number of things to not call in sick for fear of losing their jobs. Even those who had been on G days for the first week of the campaign, and after 500 pilots had already reported unfit, were still too terrified and simply unable to steel themselves to the task. Many went to work, some sneaked into work, and flew with an immense sense of self loathing. The stress these pilots operated under was incredible.

The tech logs had names blacked out so no one could check to see who was still flying….

Many of the offenders at the time were, surprisingly, among those who previously pounded their chest and screamed the loudest for AOA action. Many crumbled under self imposed doubts, admitting to friends of having reconciled themselves to being cowards. It could not have been easy for these pilots to go to work and fly. Long time friendships ended; and many personal relationships fell apart.

To this day, among those of us who were there, everyone knows which side of the line each person stood on.

To many of the posters here who pound their keyboards with conviction….

[Will IB Fayed]

Can someone please point me to the Managers public forum where they discuss their thoughts/plans/discussions on the (unfortunately) inevitable clash?

[quadspeed]

Ravens post should be read and understood by all. The post belongs on the AOA boards, being almost misplaced here among the garbage and the masks.

You don't point a gun unless you're willing to pull the trigger, and you don't encourage others while harbouring doubts yourself.

Have a good, long think about where we are, what is under threat and what is at risk if we break under pressure.

It's very, very real.

[cxorcist]

quad speed,

You never answered my questions above. Why?

CXorcist

[quadspeed]

Might I suggest you look 2 posts below your own? I might well ask you the same.

[Shep69]

While plans for a tactical strategy certainly belong somewhere else it is NOT 1999. There might be some similarities (especially amongst the negotiation by the company--or complete lack thereof) but the situation has dramatically changed.

1. The company LOST the lawsuit for wrongful termination as it will going forward so there is precedent.

2. A number of judgments have been subsequently made regarding many labor issues (including SHP for the cabin crew and other labour issues) and in ALL of them the company has lost. We can argue amounts and how the wheels of justice grind slowly but most law is based on precedent which exists now.

3. Workers have seen a continuous decline in $$$, rosters, a continuous increase in inflation, and a continuous increase in work--this can't be portrayed as a 74 hour "A scaler" sitting on the beach in Monte Carlo anymore. Moreover, more of the flying public is seeing pilots as being working professionals who aren't overpaid to make important decisions. One need look no further than the Malaysian incident to see how much scrutiny, responsibility, and trust is placed in crews. in In fact, reactions to some high profile accidents have shocked some of the public in how little starting pilots are paid. So the "prima donna" factor ain't there anymore.

4. Most importantly, the company--being a capital intensive operation--is facing substantial new equipment orders at the same time it faces increased competitive pressures that didn't previously exist in a protected market that ain't protected anymore. So parking jets as it's just turning profitable is something it (despite it's bravado) can't afford. It MUST keep the jets flying if it is to survive. AND the lead time to train new replacements is significant at a time the training department is maxed out simply trying to fill cockpits. So it can't afford massive firings or industrial action. In terms of war chest, the financial position ain't what it was in 1999 to support a major operation would it occur.

The AOA has significant cards in it's hand so long as it doesn't fold--and one would hope can go "all in" if it becomes necessary. I hope ALCON understand this--including those who SHOULD be negotiating as adults for the Company. And hopefully those who would be selfish can manage to consider something beyond their boat payments when looking at the larger view. The decisions made in the next few months will affect profitability and livelihoods for years.

If the situation were to worsen for whatever reason, when your grandkid asks you "Where were you during the big strike of 2014 ?" I'd HATE to have to answer him "ummmm...I was working G days to pay off my yacht."

[cxorcist]

Quadspeed,

CC is the first step, assuming mediation does not work. We have never experienced mediation with the company. So the outcome seems very uncertain. I doubt there would ever be a full fledged strike (this group is far too fractured and spineless for that, no thanks to guys like yourself), but some form of escalated IA is certainly a possibility. It would not take much given the shortages on some fleets to make the whole house of cards come crumbling down.

Your lack of answers are, in fact, answers.

[quadspeed]

Like I've said before, I don't think you've really thought this through to its logical conclusion. Even when you write the very words you fail to grasp their significence.

Don't point an unloaded gun.

[cxorcist]

Shep,

Another great piece. Lots of substance to make your argument.

Quad,

The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."

[Shep69]

Thanks :)

I REALLY hope we handle this well. We'll likely never be in a better position than now--at least no time soon. We don't have to accept a bad deal.

[goathead]

Goodposts Shep

Keep them coming

Im already doing CC so should everyone else be PRONTO

Ladies and gents its time to start the CC do's and dont's thread ....

[Freehills]

Another thing - the large increase in competition since 1999 (LCC & middle east carriers)

IMHO this means the government is much less likely to step in. Cathay stopping or reducing operations (for however long) is no longer a massive problem for HK Inc., just an inconvenience. Hainan Group (for example) could quickly wet lease a lot of aircraft to HKE/ HKA, and Jetstar could also ramp up fast.

[Freehills]

I think if CX have a substantial amount of disruption, objections to J* AOC and CAD limitations on HKA would go away...

[quadspeed]

cxorcist
Quad,

The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."

Oh, you'd be surprised, and if you've ever spent any time peering down on Ashley Road I think you'd be hearing the echoes of many great debates right now.

Once we get through the sheer frustration, resentment and anger, real grownups need to have a real think about where we want to go and how we go about it. While your solution of CC and then "some form of escalated IA " has the undertones of too many beers too late at the plaza, perhaps more radical tactics should be used? As you've already agreed, a strike will break the bank for far too many far too early and the company knows this. At the same time they're taunting us to go into Coordinated Contract Compliance, which unless you're a bull raging about in a ring should give rise to some serious pause and debate about what's gonna happen next.

[Shep69]

Wow.....quad.....the goal of your "it's time" thread is blowing up the AOA because you're dissatisfied over the lack of progress in talks yet here are busy saying how the sky will fall if we dig in for a necessary fight.

That's what I'd call an absolutely untenable and inconsistent position.

Unification under the AOA remains our best option at this juncture to present a coherent front in negotiating a just contract. It would be nice if mediation will produce a decent result however there's absolutely no reason (given the punitive and frankly childish bargaining position of the company) to believe that it will. As it runs its course we need be prepared for the follow on actions that will very likely happen. No one here can fix this; what we CAN do is collectively DEAL with the likely outcome in the best manner possible. So doing in a whiny, fragmented selfish scared-rabbit manner will result in long term losses to us all.

Whining about the situation--one way or the other--is useless. It is what it is and our part of the equation is to deal with it. Were we "tricked" into negotiating in good faith by elements within the company that had no intent of so doing ? Perhaps, but all we have lost is a little time which actually, from the situation, may well favor us with commitments for aircraft orders and going into the summer travel season.

There is presently all kinds of room for negotiations--not only in basic pay and rostering but other areas; everything from performance and profit based incentives to bid or preference systems allowing officers to decide lengths of trips and work for more efficient rosters (i.e. a based officer might elect to spend more time "on the road" flying regional trips to decrease commutes taking some of the burden off HKG crews. Or scheduling consistent on clock rosters; even making swaps more manageable). Things which could be an easy win-win for everyone if a problem solving approach were taken instead of management by authoritarian autocracy. Companies which practice win-win and SOME forms of give and take make money in competitive markets; companies which practice scorched earth, well poisoning, and management by fear and intimidation will fail.

From an economics perspective, no one WANTS a fight--in the short term it will cost both us and the Company money. But sometimes one HAS to fight and there's every indication (by the complete lack of negotiation on the part of the company, the punitive bad-faith actions, its legal track record, and history) we will have to fight unless we want to see a situation much worse than the status quo. Moreover, if we fail to do so now there's every indication not only will we have to live with a horrible--and shifting to the worse--contract for the rest of our careers, but also the AOA and any collective input we might have had toward our future will probably fall apart. This has nothing to do with with anger, resentments, frustration or really feelings in any way (although they might be useful to some in actually getting ready to ACT on something)--it's a rational analysis of the situation which, for better or worse, is likely going to REQUIRE a fight.

If a fight is required we will never--in my lifetime at least--be in a better position to do it than we are now.

Few things in life worthwhile are gained without hard work. Hopefully the Company will realize we collectively have the resolve and staying power to force a just contract if need be and will act as rational adults bargaining in good faith. I don't think this will happen and in any case believe we need be prepared to collectively force it to.

[quadspeed]

If all members shared your opinion then we wouldn't find ourselves in this position. And I wouldn't need to post anymore.

[goathead]

@quadspeed

If we all shared your opinion we would all be toast

'We are all born ignorant quad but one must work hard to remain stupid'!!

[quadspeed]

'We are all born ignorant but one must work hard to remain stupid'!!

Well I suppose that's as good a closing remark as any.

[Joejetjock]

Not much will change until we change.

Right now Management know that "fear will always trump courage" when it comes to dealing with us.

Until we collecitively realize that we hold the carkeys to the revenue supply and act out of courage instead of fear, don't expect much to change.

[anthraCX]

CX don't want a fight. SK wants a fight because he enjoys it and NR will refuse any extra money or leniency in CoS negotiations as he has a strong dislike of pilots.
GMA will then take the rap for the ensuing disruptions this summer and beyond.

[cxorcist]

Two posts above are spot on.

AnthraCX, love the name!:ok:

CXorcist

[Brown Nose]

Quad speed,

What do you mean no one can afford a strike?

A strike for one day would put the airline in chaos for a week. Who can't afford one day a month loss in pay and housing?

And if CC is so ineffective, why is the company making such a big deal of it and even calling it industrial action when it is simply doing exactly what your contract asks you to do with out going above and beyond your contract?

[Anotherday]

Brown nose, the pilot body is made up of three groups of people. Those who recently joined and have little to lose, those who have done financially well and have little to lose, and in-between is the great majority.
Unfortunately those beating their collective chests loudest over CC have done financially well (ironically because of employment by CX) and have nothing to lose in these negotiations.
It's best you don't forget that.
We didn't vote to not answer our phones on days off, we voted for CC which, as the company points out, is a whole lot more. Many don't seem to grasp this. If you seriously think you are going to lose only one days pay for industrial action you are badly mistaken and perhaps need a history lesson.
I won't bore you with details, suffice to say that during SARS the company had no choice but to inform the markets what it's financial situation would be when it was bleeding money as sadly no one was traveling.
It advised it could shut down completely for at least 12 months before starting operations back up, it has very very very deep pockets.
It's also best you don't forget that.

[nitpicker330]

Yes I remember years ago after yet another "crisis" we had $12 Billion in cash reserves. Now we must have $20 billion.

Very deep pockets indeed.

[Arfur Dent]

Why does just abiding by our contract have to be shouted from the rooftops? If CX can't survive with most people simply complying with what they are employed to do it's not our problem - it's theirs! :)

[raven11]

AnotherDay....don't be silly.....

Cathay shutting down for a year...you can't be serious? They don't own Hong Kong! Do you think the Hong Kong government would allow it? Would the mainland Chinese government tolerate it for even one second? Give me a break, the local economy would be in tatters.

What about our airport landing slots, all over the world...they would lose them all to other, smarter, carriers. What about our pilot flying currency? Indeed our very qualifications, would be wiped out...they would need to re-train and reQualify 3000 pilots? What would that cost? Not to mention, and this is a big one, no bonuses for senior management. What about the shareholders....do you think they would tolerate such stupidly?

It would cost them a mountain of money. The very idea that they would ruin the Company, over a refusal to grant a single digit percent pay increase, because they have very deep pockets....that very notion is laughable! Especially since, as you say, they have very deep pockets....what's a few percent weighed against the potential loss of the entire company.

Your 23 posts mark you as one of our middle managers....I'm not surprised....is this the best you can come up with? Surely you can do better than threaten to shut down the company over what amounts to a pittance in cost for a Company that has historically pulled in billions of dollars each and every year.

Get real!

[cxorcist]

Thankyou Raven!

Sometimes I think we give these "managers" too much credit for their smarts. The main advantage they have over us is discipline. We are so impatient that we lose our focus and stop seeing the big picture.

What is the big picture I hear you ask? This company thinks it is OK to deteriorate the value of pilot compensation with inflation lagging pay rises. They think it is OK to use RA65 as a tool to gain concessions. They think expat housing is overly generous in the face of incredible inflation in Hong Kong. They think fatigue only applies to cabin crew, and that safety is nothing more than a punchline. This company thinks a $2000HK bonus on a profit of $2.6 billion is being generous. This company is the stingiest group of penny wise, pound foolish scrooges I have ever witnessed. They make money in spite of themselves because they call Hong Kong home.

They think they are saving money on crew right now. OK, but they are actually costing themselves money when it comes to this pilot. My productivity is in the toilet compared to a few years back. If they are happy for me to write 500 hours in the last 12 months on my medical application every year, so be it. They can have it. I'd rather work more for more money and a fairer set of rostering practices, but that is really up to them. The choice is theirs. I suggest each of my colleagues take the same stance.

[1200firm]

CX want a fight because there has never been a time where they don't want a fight. They don't care about money or product quality or anything else. Never have done.

The only thing that Swire management are interested in is CONTROL. It has been like that for decades.

[cpdude]

Get rid of PV and PW and the negotiations with the Company will improve. As for GDLC and DD(version 2) they are nobody's and will follow whoever is pulling their strings.

[cxorcist]

cpdude,

That's a ridiculous comment. While not perfect, there are no two pilots better suited and more familiar with CX's tactics than PW and PV. They have seen all this before and finally have some good help from CB and in the not so distant past, DD. If you think you know more, by all means get in there and do us all some good. Otherwise, put your oar in the water and start rowing, or you could just keep doing the company's work for them by undermining our negotiators. :ugh:

[cpdude]

Not true, nor have there been persons so destructive to the membership as these two since the ND days. Get rid of them ASAP.:ok:

[cxorcist]

Care to provide any details? Or are you just going to throw generic spears? Perhaps you should air your grievances on the AOA forums? Or are you unwilling to put your name next to these charges?

[AnAmusedReader]

That's precisely the point cxorcist - there are NO DETAILS, absolutely none. Can you give me one single achievement that PV and PW have managed in their years in charge?

All the good help that you allege DD gave resulted in exactly what? Again, nothing. Good luck to CB but he seems to be another DD.

[cxorcist]

"Can you give me one single achievement that PV and PW have managed in their years in charge?"

No more freighter commands, 25 year housing, three years of pay rises (albeit inflation lagging) for nothing in return. Given the puss game this sorry lot brings as membership support, I think they've done OK.

You going to do better? If so, put your hand up and get on with it. You'll have my support.

[White None]

NOT a snipe at your comment, genuinely just asking, do we think we have this nailed down?

[cxorcist]

Yes and no. Are guys and gals getting this right now when they hit 15 years? Yes. Will they get it once the company mounts its big assault on housing? I don't know. The fact that they will not put something agreed to at the bargaining table into writing is disturbing. It tells you just about everything you need to know about whom we are dealing with as an employer. They are scum!