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Up-into-the-air

3rd May 2014, 10:02

A re-introduction to some of the players in the aviation comments market in Australia [with lots of apologies to the original authors]:

Kharon - Ferryman of the Dead

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8VmcGwMVXsHqJJBYbKyFLxgem-OaT08gBl8L8lN4ZqJAYDGvz

The Screaming Skull [aka Big John mac]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROLOXs1xwulaKZ0CXm9RZ2PI2KjQTzVJ1dah7qgKL bMfXoMjQFUA

The Hoodoo Voodoo [aka j alleck]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRETQ0nSxfg56HCC4MvmjuDdRYj7kh6s4JD5_QhuY r52DklAXlhA

and Woger Rabbit [or the roger chamber-pot report] in PelAir

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTEaeucrtYy59ql_HZkI1Kgk9SR8kAK_whGviffWZK YaJJyp6rTJw

and to point the real finger at the real perpetrator [casa]:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiTQJ1WLvpesVlnqDsSag1NauwY70JMZS1Oqi0UT9 4EEBQjfdG

Thanks - It is the weekend of course and the 4:58 FAX time has gone!!

dubbleyew eight

3rd May 2014, 12:54

I suppose if you are locked in an imposition of wills argument eventually you ridicule the opponent to break the deadlock.

I don't see it that way.

they are all intelligent people who have backgrounds that make them experts in other areas.
trouble is they aren't working in those other areas, they are working in civil aviation, something they have little to no experience in and they are clueless.

section 20a of the universal declaration of human rights says the entire structure of australian legislation is wrong.
being ex military would blind you totally to that.

the canadian owner maintenance regulations created a lot of peace in that country. if you were hell bent on mandating a LAME environment "like it was in the RAAF" you'd be totally blind to that.

aeronautical engineering should be core to all the legislation. I doubt that CAsA actually employs any but if they do they don't listen to them.

there is no point to trying to make CAsA more competent, they will never ever throw off their pasts. they are irrelevant. ignore them.

Up-into-the-air

3rd May 2014, 23:25

DU8 - The issue here is for RESPONSIBILITY to be taken by casa, not:

Avoidance;
Obtusification;
Misleading statements;
False evidence etc etc

The end-game is taking responsibility for mistakes and finding a way forward.

yr right

4th May 2014, 01:01

There are very few lame in the military and I've have seen when they operated VH rego aircraft and the SGT was not a lame and his junior was he had the say. The Sgt had no say and I ribbed him about that. He wasn't happy abt it. Pmsl. We'll with attitudes like that it is why we in the position we are in know. There are f all lame about and every day we loosing them.
I am happy for owners to do there own maintenance I just won't to know who is so I have no dealings with them.
If it's so easy to do your own go do the exams and training and then do it.

Cheers

dubbleyew eight

4th May 2014, 09:49

yr right you are missing my point.

in the RAAF the aircraft are owned by the government and maintained for government purposes. so the government supplies as much money as is needed to do this.

they aren't called LAME's in the RAAF they are Hydraulics technicians, airframe fitters, avionics fitters, electrical fitters etc.

The RAAF is an environment where the pilots don't own aircraft and don't ever work on them so when the ex-raaf were called on to regulate civilian aviation they had absolutely no experience with ownership, no experience with maintenance and you can see this reflected in the australian legislation.
in fact it is evident in the regulations of all countries where the ex military aviators were employed to create the regulations for civilian aviation.

in this country we have the concept of private ownership.
if you steal something privately owned by someone else you will be fined or go to prison for the misdeed.
we allow aircraft to be privately owned in this country.
an INALIENABLE right of private ownership is the right to use, to enjoy and to maintain the items privately owned.
why isn't this reflected in australian aviation law?
simple.
the people who drafted the laws have no experience with private ownership.
private ownership in aviation is a totally unknown experience for most of them.

canadian owner maintenance regulations if introduced here in australia wouldn't mean the end of LAME's.
what it would end though is secrecy surrounding all the owner maintenance that goes on now and will continue to go on.

you say that I should sit all the exams and become a LAME.
why?
all I want to do is maintain my own aeroplanes.
I have no use for the detailed knowledge of systems not in my aircraft.
I can assure you that I can maintain my own aeroplane. I've been doing it for over 10 years now.

the malaise in the aviation is not caused by private owners.
it is caused by stupidly framed legislation gradually making everything impossible.

thunderbird five

4th May 2014, 10:39

If I own and operate a car, it is my responsibility tomaintain it. I can do all the work myself, or take it to a qualified mechanic.Nothing is recorded. If I own and operate a speedboat, it is my responsibility tomaintain it. I can do all the work myself, or take it to a qualified mechanic.Nothing is recorded. If I own and operate a motor bike, it is my responsibilityto maintain it. I can do all the work myself, or take it to a qualified mechanic.Nothing is recorded. None of these get an annual inspection - they are maintained continuously on condition.

I just can’t see what’s different with aircraft. They’ll say……if I have a mechanical failure in flight, I might crash into some body or something.

Well if a wheel comes off my car, or the steering fails onmy boat, or the throttle jams on my motorbike – because of my sloppy work (thatI’m legally allowed to do - with zero qualifications) – aren’t I going to crash into the same some body orsome thing?:eek:

So why are aircraft SO different? (Private operations only we're talking):confused:

dubbleyew eight

4th May 2014, 11:40

the aviation paperwork mania can be traced back to a maintenance incident in england in WW1.
an aircraft was in for a repair. this involved making or repairing a new mainspar.
in the gluing of the ply webs one slipped and glued out of position.
the crew assembled it in the aircraft, completed the repairs and returned the aircraft to service.

one of the young upper class chappies took it out flying and was killed in a midair structural failure.

the english establishment was incensed that one of their lords had been killed "in what was so obviously a sabotage". despite an intensive investigation they could pin the blame on no one. So in response the english created an elaborate system of signing for work so that it could never occur again unpunished.

as far as I can tell aviation paperwork spiralled off from there.

when I was building my Turbulent I gained an interesting insight as to what may really have occurred.
Turbulent fuselages are built as two flat sides which are then erected with cross members into the curved sided fuselage.
The curve of the front is notoriously hard to bend into place.
So I built the framework as an easier to construct 3D frame then glued on the ply.
I jigged the first fuselage side horizontal and glued on a large side panel.
this was all weighted down and I sat and watched that it didn't move until the glue in the pot was well and truly setting off. I then walked up to the house for a cup of tea.
on return I was horrified to see that the panel had slid off the glue area as per the english WW1 experience. I was able to break the glue bond and rescued the job.
why did it move when for the 2 hours previously it had shown no inclination to do?
I came to the conclusion that my footsteps out of the workshop set up a vibration that upset the positioning of the weighted panel.
....and I would conclude that that was what happened in the original WW1 incident. i.e. the poms got it wrong. no one actually sabotaged anything.
the guys probably just had a tea break in the middle of the work and the panel vibrated off position.

in any case we now have an insane system of paperwork that some see as more important than the actual aircraft.

SgtBundy

4th May 2014, 12:22

Well if a wheel comes off my car, or the steering fails onmy boat, or the throttle jams on my motorbike – because of my sloppy work (thatI’m legally allowed to do - with zero qualifications) – aren’t I going to crash into the same some body orsome thing?

So why are aircraft SO different? (Private operations only we're talking)

Devils advocate - the presence of a 3rd dimension in aviation almost guarantees the results will be far worse in such a situation, and gravity isn't just a good idea, its the law. In the other vehicles you are far more likely to be able to turn everything off and coast to a stop - not every time and the failures won't always be so benign, but you generally don't have to worry about a few thousand feet of drop.

Having seen what some people consider an acceptable vehicle standards, I shudder to think what would be the result if some cost conscience 'I-can-do-it-myself' yahoos without training or skills started maintaining their own aircraft. You can guarantee they won't be the ones hurt/killed when their dodgy work fails.

I won't comment on the rightness/wrongness of the legislation as I am far from qualified to do so, but I would think there ought to be at least a minimum standard for those authorised to work on aircraft. How onerous or structured that should be is up to someone who understands it in depth.

thorn bird

4th May 2014, 22:13

"I shudder to think what would be the result if some cost conscience 'I-can-do-it-myself' yahoos without training or skills started maintaining their own aircraft."
Sarge,
I think you just insulted half the private aircraft owners in the USA and Canada. Given that their safety record is so much better than ours, maybe we should insist on owner maintenance.

Sunfish

5th May 2014, 00:05

The life critical components in a car (suspension brakes steering) are built way overstrength to allow for Forty plus years of corrosion and zero or totallly ham fisted maintenance plus consequential and incidental damage along the way.

Aicraft components are not.

Up-into-the-air

5th May 2014, 00:16

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROLOXs1xwulaKZ0CXm9RZ2PI2KjQTzVJ1dah7qgKL bMfXoMjQFUA

This morning's missive, which takes us away from schedule 5 and what a LAME/ owner should or should not do

CASA wishes to advise the opening of:

Project CS 14/09 - Post-implementation review of CASR Part 90 (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAUDBwQIVx9VAAAGTA0IBQgE)
Project CS 14/10 - Update of AC 21-46(1) (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAUDBwQIVh9VAAAGTA0IBQgE)
Project MS 14/11 - Knowledge retainment through CAO to ATSO conversion (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAUDBwQIWR9VAAAGTA0IBQgE)
Project OS 14/12 - Performance Based Navigation and Reduced Vertical Separation Minima regulatory review (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAUDBwQIWB9VAAAGTA0IBQgE)

1. How can the industry deal with changes to the depth as these are? and:

2. Are there enough properly qualified people who can deal with these matters? and:

3. Is this being paid for via the industries $89.9m?

004wercras

5th May 2014, 00:41

UITA, some of the changed wording looks like it has been put through the hands of the Witchdoctor and Co! Get out the large cauldron, add a little fine tuning and sprinkle in some changes, add a little extra legal flavour for extra zing as well as create a base made from 'intent', spin and incompetence and hey presto; Another Delightful CAsA feast!!

Up-into-the-air

5th May 2014, 01:50

This what you had in mind??

http://www.pprune.org/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx8kKDQsJCYx Jx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3 Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIwAfwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAACBgMEBQEAB//EAEAQAAIBAwIEBAQCCAUBCQAAAAECAwAEEQUhEhMxQQYiUWEUcYGRMqEVI0K xwdHh8AczU4KSYkRSY3Jzg5Oi8f/EABoBAAIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMFAQIEAAb/xAAvEQABBAEDAgMHBAMAAAAAAAABAAIDEQQSITEFQRMiUWFxgaGx4fAjMpHR BhQV/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD5drGr6nreq3V3eX07SOzPgythd+ijsB0xVCOS4e1aT 4mfiU7jmHpXY3Cyz57qQPnUdtIYUkVujjGM1B5KNpCsW0k7PEGnmOVLEGQnN HzpgqnnyfgY7yH1271VE4RlbIHCvD1zUbXOwHEdhw7elQrAgFaME0/PgUyynEWT5jvvQS3UqqAJpOMce3ET16VTt3FxOkRYJzDwcZ7Z/hV34EwT8q7lBwSDwnJXHsagv0ndWDS8bIJLubHlmlB5mfxkbfehN9KFUc5/K2fxk59u1U7qKWCTgJJX9lunEKFIXY7jqM1YboZNGqVt9QlLE8+QHGMK5Ao0 kumi5olmAY4XLt5vlvQWOmGYGSVgkS9Se/sKYNMtbPga8v5ZpILVeJ4oBsB2Ge3pQZJQzYLRDC6TcigsR1uoIDc3N1Iozw 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Creampuff

5th May 2014, 02:03

The self-perpetuating regulatory Frankenstein in action:CASA is aware of some omissions and unintended consequences associated with the implementation of Part 90 of CASR, both in the regulations and the associated Part 90 Manual of Standards (MOS). Two general Exemptions have been raised against these regulations. …Spend time and money making some rules. Spend time and money making Exemptions to deal with the ‘unintended consequences’ of those rules. Spend time and money conducting a post-implementation review.

Make some new rules with unintended consequences, make some exemptions…

LeadSled

6th May 2014, 14:19

I shudder to think what would be the result if some cost conscience 'I-can-do-it-myself' yahoos without training or skills started maintaining their own aircraft. You can guarantee they won't be the ones hurt/killed when their dodgy work fails.

Folks,
There speaks a person who obviously hasn't a clue about what is going on in the real world around them.
The Canadian owner/pilot maintenance rules have been very successful. Based on my on the spot experience, the general and detailed condition of most US and Canadian aircraft I have dealt with are far superior to here.
Sgt, are you even aware of the number of aircraft in Australia that are legally maintained by other than LAMEs, ---- with absolutely no record of greater maintenance related accidents, compared to LAME maintained aircraft.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Of course, many of the above aircraft were built by their owners in the first place ---- I trust you are not suggesting the cessation of amateur building. Isn't it logical that the builder of an aircraft knows that aircraft best?
I fall about laughing every time a LAME --- with a straight face, says that amateur builders should not be able to maintain their aircraft, the illogical nature of such statements are lost on the average LAME.

dubbleyew eight

6th May 2014, 15:03

there is a technology to aviation....but it isn't rocket science. :}

if I counted correctly there are now 1,453 amateur built aircraft on the australian VH register.

Up-into-the-air

7th May 2014, 05:53

From:CASA mailing lists <[email protected] (https://email22.secureserver.net/webmail.php?login=1#)>(Add as Preferred Sender (https://email22.secureserver.net/webmail.php?login=1#)) Date:Wed, May 07, 2014 2:47 pmTo:
CASA wishes to advise the opening of:

Project CS 14/13 - Weight and balance of amateur-built aircraft (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAMEBw0IVh9VAAEBTA0IBQgE)

Project MS 14/14 - Updates to Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) Instruments - Specifications for examinations for aircraft maintenance engineer licences, and repeal of an outdated DASR Instrument (http://casa.grapevine.com.au/lists/lt.php?id=f0UEAAMEBw0IWR9VAAEBTA0IBQgE)

This is today's lot

Avgas172

7th May 2014, 08:54

Oh Dear .... :confused:

SgtBundy

7th May 2014, 11:28

Sgt, are you even aware of the number of aircraft in Australia that are legally maintained by other than LAMEs

No, and I qualified that in my post - my post was that if you look at what passes for self maintained in the automotive world then I would hate for that quality to flow through to the aircraft world.

I have no doubt there are people who do a better job looking after their pride and joy, and their own necks, than someone who would be hired for the job. Despite how my post seems to have been read I am not making sweeping statements about all self maintained aircraft and I don't make any claim to be knowledgeable about such matters.

I am simply saying I have seen what passes for amateur in other industries, and how cost minimisation works in some organisations and I believe some minimum standard of training and qualification is warranted for safety's sake.

thorn bird

8th May 2014, 06:58

Hey Sarge,
to a certain extent I agree with you, but some people imagine that private owner operators are a bunch of homicidal lunatics which is a long way from reality.
Go to some of the discussions on this sight on engine handling for example, sure there are the usual egomaniacs trying the, my dick is bigger than yours stuff, but the majority are informed, well researched enthusiasts who have accumulated knowledge way beyond what your average LAME would know.
My experience in the US and Canada is their aircraft, overall, leave ours for dead in terms of maintenance, and the vast majority of them are maintained by enthusiastic amateurs.

yr right

8th May 2014, 10:42

Mmm no more than the average lame where is your data on that. Like the private owner that toque his b nuts up to 3/4" bolt tq cracked every one. Just one example. If being a lame is so easy why are you all lames. Most lames have forgotten more than people like you know.

We put an extension on the house last year thought yeah I can do than concil said wait up cowboy you don't have a lic. Thought ok I'll do the electrics wait up cowboy you don't have a lic thought ok I'll do the pumping wait up cowboy you don't have a lic. Thought ok what about the roof wait up cowboy you don't have a scaffold lic.

And you won't do your own work on your aircraft cause it not rocket science good on you.

Cheers

Aussie Bob

9th May 2014, 09:57

We put an extension on the house last year thought yeah I can do than concil said wait up cowboy you don't have a lic. Thought ok I'll do the electrics wait up cowboy you don't have a lic thought ok I'll do the pumping wait up cowboy you don't have a lic. Thought ok what about the roof wait up cowboy you don't have a scaffold lic.

Your mistake was asking.

Hempy

9th May 2014, 10:17