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View Full Version : This will set the cat among the pigeons! Gerry Adams


G-CPTN
30th Apr 2014, 21:26
Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams arrested on suspicion of 1972 murder | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2617193/Sinn-Fein-leader-Gerry-Adams-arrested-suspicion-1973-murder.html)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27232731

500N
30th Apr 2014, 21:31
Wow, it certainly will.

Interesting that he has been arrested for this murder.

Not a soldier, not a Policeman but a woman.

racedo
30th Apr 2014, 22:15
Will never see the inside of a jail cell.................

tony draper
30th Apr 2014, 22:20
Be frantic phone calls from the Home Office asking the Northern Ireland Police what the hell they think they are doing.
:uhoh:

bnt
30th Apr 2014, 22:24
I passed him on the way to work last week, on the steps of the Gresham Hotel on Dublin's O'Connell Street, talking to some reporters. Not a lot of reporters, it might be said. I imagine more of them will be keen to talk to him today. :hmm:

vulcanised
30th Apr 2014, 22:27
Didn't he have an audience with Her Maj not too long ago?

Maybe he let something slip.

500N
30th Apr 2014, 22:28
"Will never see the inside of a jail cell................."


If they have irrefutable proof he pulled the trigger
or was very much involved, I do wonder.

The problem is, the two who confessed on video are dead and
I reckon heaps of people will happily say he was somewhere
else at the time.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
30th Apr 2014, 22:31
Do some lawyers in NI need a bit more cash to pay for their private island holiday this summer?
Can't see any other point to this.

Seldomfitforpurpose
30th Apr 2014, 23:30
Can't see any other point to this.

Why :confused::confused::confused:

baggersup
30th Apr 2014, 23:59
Oh god. It was only a matter of time.

Once the police got their hands on the Boston College tapes they've been trying to get for the past few years, it was only a matter of time until they started the ball rolling.

When Mrs. McConville's body was found years ago, it just seemed that nobody as going to give up on solving the question of who ordered it/carried it out. She keeps coming up in documentaries and news reports.

Back in 2011 I was in Belfast for a month or so and had a lot of conversations (i.e. good excuse to consume loads of Guinness) with some academics and a couple of PSNI guys there about the nightmare these BC tapes were going to be--and the whole mess involved with their supposed "confidentiality" and sumsuch.

If I were still at my old newspaper, I'd already have asked one of the national political reporters to call Hillary and Bill Clinton for a quote.....:E:E:E

Solar
1st May 2014, 04:34
Much as I would like to think otherwise I would agree with Racedo and Fox on this mores the pity.

Krystal n chips
1st May 2014, 06:54
" Oh Gerry boy, the past, the past is calling"

However, whilst there no doubt will be some form of investigation, and there are plenty of others with "unanswered questions" from both sides of past times, life and politics in NI has moved on.

ChrisVJ
1st May 2014, 07:13
If the police want so much to charge people with sexual misconduct, or even a little 'feeling up' how much would they want to close a murder.

(Knowing it is N Ireland and not England.)

Or is there some other agenda here. Maybe they could have done this a month or two ago?

lasernigel
1st May 2014, 07:34
Think Mr & Mrs Bliar will get involved. He'll never be prosecuted mores the shame.

eastern wiseguy
1st May 2014, 07:47
Vulcanised.....no. Wrong shinner. It was Martin McGuiness

Bronx
1st May 2014, 08:02
Interesting that he has been arrested for this murder.
He hasn't been arrested "for" the murder.
On this side of the pond suspects have to be arrested and read their rights before they can be interviewed. I guess it's the same in the UK.


Or is there some other agenda here. Maybe they could have done this a month or two ago?
I wondered if it's just a coincidence the cops arranged to interview the president of a political party just three weeks before the European and local government elections.
He was aware of speculation that police might want to talk to him about the McConville case and offered to be interviewed five weeks ago.

He'll never be prosecuted mores the shame. If it turns out there's no evidence he was involved in the murder he can't be.

If I were still at my old newspaper, I'd already have asked one of the national political reporters to call Hillary and Bill Clinton for a quote.....
Typical journo tactics. :rolleyes:
Nobody with any sense would make a comment anyways.

Let the law take it's course.

jimtherev
1st May 2014, 08:25
Let the law take it's course.
As if they would!
Not a chance.

OFSO
1st May 2014, 08:27
From people I know who worked in MI, this is far from the only murder in which they were sure he was complicit. However on many occasions over the years they were always told to back off.

Effluent Man
1st May 2014, 08:54
This isn't going to be popular but I think this is a can of worms best left unopened.After all the years of bombings and killings do we really want to kick the hornet's nest into life?

Seldomfitforpurpose
1st May 2014, 09:09
This isn't going to be popular but I think this is a can of worms best left unopened.After all the years of bombings and killings do we really want to kick the hornet's nest into life?

Perhaps we should have forgone the Bloody Sunday Enquirey then :ok:

Effluent Man
1st May 2014, 09:19
Well you know the genuine out-and-out nutters of the Real IRA are the ones who will be hoping this goes somewhere.

Tankertrashnav
1st May 2014, 09:33
As some Sinn Fein spokesman said on TV last night, Adams has been arrested several times in the past (although not in connection with this case). Being arrested does not mean being charged, and I would be very surprised if he were.

K & C - in your usual determination to swim against the tide, you underline both sides - you will presumably know that only three weeks ago a man was arrested in England in connection with UVF murders in the 1990s.

Life unfortunately has not moved on for the loved ones of those who were murdered by either side, and they rightly feel themselves marginalised by an apparent willingness on the part of the authorities to sweep these matters under the carpet.

Just a spotter
1st May 2014, 09:48
There is some howling and gnashing of teeth amongst the rank and file of Sinn Féin here in Ireland regarding the arrest. Mary Lou McDonald, TD, the party's deputy leader has claimed the timing is politically motivated. Gerry Adams questioned over McConville murder - Political News | Irish & International Politics | The Irish Times - Wed, Apr 30, 2014 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/gerry-adams-questioned-over-mcconville-murder-1.1779319)

Recent polls suggest strong and growing support for SF, with Fine Gael (the larger party in government) at 26%, Fianna Fáil (currently the main opositions and previously the largest party in the State best remembered as the guys responsible for mismanagement of the economy and its resulting mess in the 2000's) 22%, Sinn Féin 21% (they'd have historically been at around 5% during the Troubles), Labour (the smaller coalition partner) 9% and independents doing well at 22% (there's a lot of dissatisfaction with government implementation of the changes needed to balance the economy). Support for Coalition parties down in new poll - Political News | Irish & International Politics | The Irish Times - Sat, Mar 29, 2014 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/support-for-coalition-parties-down-in-new-poll-1.1743471)

Keep in mind that under the electoral system in Ireland, each voter has a single transferable vote and for general elections each constituency has multiple seats (between 3 and 5 depending on population).

Of course, that's not to prejudice whether Mr.Adams has a case to answer or not, just providing some current political context.

JAS

Standard Noise
1st May 2014, 16:30
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh427/standardnoise_photo/10173536_243230732548552_2347868157221820300_n_zps991822da.p ng

Lonewolf_50
1st May 2014, 17:01
This isn't going to be popular but I think this is a can of worms best left unopened.After all the years of bombings and killings do we really want to kick the hornet's nest into life?
They still seem to be tracking down ninety year old German guards from various Stalags ... why would Mr Adams be given a pass?

Justaspotter: thanks for the insights. :)

racedo
1st May 2014, 19:25
From people I know who worked in MI, this is far from the only murder in which they were sure he was complicit. However on many occasions over the years they were always told to back off.

Kind of rich they quoting on it giving their involvement over the years.....

Personally think this is politically based due to elections.

Seldomfitforpurpose
2nd May 2014, 10:13
Personally think this is politically based due to elections.


Couldn't possibly be that the murdering bastard, who has plenty of blood on his hands, might actually be guilty of involvement in a murder...........nah what a stupid notion :rolleyes:

Foxy Loxy
2nd May 2014, 18:08
Even if he is convicted of this, he'll get a maximum of two years inside.
Why? The Good Friday Agreement that he helped to broker - so I understand.

Can anyone answer why the amnesty doesn't work both ways btw?

VP959
2nd May 2014, 19:44
I'll start by saying I'm a staunch Republican. However, I've never been able to get my head around why anyone, on either "side" should ever be exempt from prosecution for murder.

Both Adams and McGuinness (and a fair few other high profile people in the Six Counties) are known, or suspected, murderers. If there is sufficient evidence to show that, beyond reasonable doubt, Adams was either a murderer, or part of a conspiracy to murder, then he should be subjected to the same legal test of innocence or guilt as anyone else.

er340790
2nd May 2014, 22:48
Innocent until found dead. :}

500N
2nd May 2014, 22:55
" then he should be subjected to the same legal test of innocence or guilt as anyone else."

Pity he / they didn't apply the same criteria to the lady in question !



Re the IRA, when was it that the Protestants really started fighting back using the same tactics. I seem to remember something like the 70's where the IRA really started to cop it back big time.

Is my memory correct ?

parabellum
2nd May 2014, 23:25
Just how acceptable as evidence in court would those tapes be? No caution, much of it probably hearsay, not carried out under police supervision, verification of identity.


Personally I think Adams should have been taken out long ago, but that is probably me being subjective.

Tankertrashnav
2nd May 2014, 23:38
Can anyone answer why the amnesty doesn't work both ways btw?

It's my understanding that it does.

A much more important point - the former police ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Baroness O'Loan was talking about this on newsnight tonight and she mentioned the two year limit - can that really apply to murder convictions, as opposed to possession of firearms, etc?

500N
2nd May 2014, 23:43
"It's my understanding that it does."

Then why are they going after the Paras ?

sitigeltfel
3rd May 2014, 06:31
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/jaceb1/adams_zpsa00fde3e.jpg

Effluent Man
3rd May 2014, 08:55
Are they going after the paras? I didn't know that.I suppose the equivalent would be arresting the CO and holding him for three days.I reckon the Daily Mail would be apoplectic if that were to happen.

G-CPTN
3rd May 2014, 16:30
BBC News - Gerry Adams arrest: Attempt to 'settle old scores' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27268739)

VP959
3rd May 2014, 17:49
500N wrote:
Re the IRA, when was it that the Protestants really started fighting back using the same tactics. I seem to remember something like the 70's where the IRA really started to cop it back big time.

Is my memory correct ?

Firstly, the conflict has sod all to do with religion and everything to do with the attachment the various factions have to their land and history. The fact that the majority of republicans (but not all) are catholic and the majority of loyalists (again, not all) are protestant isn't really relevant.

The troubles started when the British government sent troops into the Six Counties in the late 60's primarily to protect (what was then) the republican minority from loyalist paramilitaries. Anyone who's been to, or lived in, some of the hot spots in the Six Counties will probably have observed the same as we have (and my other half is a staunch British loyalist), that the greatest provocation comes, more often than not, from the loyalist community.

Sure the IRA have been in an unlawful armed struggle to unite the island of Ireland since before the formation of the Irish Free State, and then the Republic, but the real escalation in the Six Counties started after the loyalists raised stakes by trying to humiliate and drive out the republicans in what they see as "their" land.

This was still apparent last time I stayed in the Antrim glens for a while, around 10 years ago. The republican villages were barely noticeable as such (despite the area having been a republican stronghold at the height of the troubles). At most you might see a tricolour on lamp posts at the ends of the village. The loyalist villages were still fiercely antagonistic though, with union flags, red, white and blue painted kerb stones and provocative paramilitary murals on the walls.

As my other half noted, the places she felt safer and more secure were the republican villages, where tourists were being welcomed with no outward sign of hostility. The places we both felt insecure, to the point of driving through with the doors locked, were some of the loyalist villages, where all we sensed was hatred.

My feeling is that things will get worse in the Six Counties, much as I hope they don't. There has been an increasing proportion of the population there who are republican, such that it is now probably the loyalists who are close to being the minority. I suspect that we'll see more violence erupt there before long, even though I hope that we don't. I'd like nothing better than to see a peaceful resolution to the conflict, but honestly can't see how it can happen whilst there are still so many bitter memories, with people who still feel there's a need to settle the score, on both sides.

AtomKraft
4th May 2014, 01:01
Treat him like Max Clifford.

In MC gets 8 years for inappropriate behaviour, in a time when a lot of behaviour that is inappropriate today was appropriate, then our Gerry bumping women off had better carry a bigger penalty.

Even then, putting a mother in the ground was nothing less than cold blooded murder.

Cacophonix
4th May 2014, 01:11
Oh for Christ's sake you were trying to kill each other... (and did)...?

Don't forget, nor forgive but live...

The next generation may find peace and love...


Christy Moore - Welcome To The Cabaret (Live At The Point) - YouTube

Caco

10Watt
4th May 2014, 04:54
My dear Sir/ Lady,

may l suggest that you google " lrish History" ?

l would suggest that there is nothing the Taliban can do that hasn`t

already been perpetrated on British soil.

Hence the almost one a week Queen`s Pardons for murderers under

Tony Blair`s rule that has recently become apparent.

How can we pursue terrorists abroad with this lump in the carpet ?

What a shambles.

BenThere
4th May 2014, 05:05
Seems to me it would be better to let bygones be bygones.

Adams had to tread a thin line as political rep for the IRA constituency. Of course he would have been involved or knowledgeable in some of the nefarious deeds they did. Maybe he even made some violent and illegal moves. But it was war.

It should be remembered that he was also a key player in negotiating the peace, a peace that has thankfully held for some time now.

I just returned home from ten days in Ireland. At no time did I sense any desire on anyone's part to rekindle the conflict, and I did have one good and lengthy pub discussion on the matter. Sinn Fein also seems to be ascendent in the polls.

10Watt
4th May 2014, 07:01
l hardly think that as tourist in one of the most violent places in the world

you would have been admitted to the inner sanctums.

Would that apply to the Twin Towers mob ?

BenThere
4th May 2014, 07:13
I hardly think Ireland is one of the most violent places in the world. I live in greater Detroit, you know.

While it's true my vacation did not include an IRA secret briefing, I did distinctly sense a much more serene tone on the part of Irish in the Free State than I did on previous travels to the Emerald Isle.

I'm happy to let Ulster be Ulster and the Free State be Ireland. I have family on both sides who mingle freely these days. Now that Ireland is starting to prosper again, it all seems good to me. Am I missing something?

10Watt
4th May 2014, 07:37
Has the Cosa Nostra left the USA, after lengthy legal battles ?

For whatever reason some people are now prepared to speak up.

Probably encouraged by minor celebrities getting banged up over historical

issues.

Sad as it is, to put the murderous scum in the dock will write off the whole

of the Good Friday agreement.

So, Mr Adams will be released with expenses and " compensation ".

Some of which will come out of my pocket....

l can`t begin to explain how l feel about that.

You do know that explosives are being found daily don`t you ?

Mainland UK is looking for another rough ride, without the luxury

of topping the bastards if caught.

Somebody is missing something. l hope it isn`t me :)

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 07:54
No,I don't think it is you.Adams and McGuinness,whatever their past are now both inside the tent pissing out.The real hard men of the "Real IRA" are just itching to kick it all off again,and so it seems is someone high up in the PSNI.

McGuinness was admirable in his restraint yesterday.Cameron should be stepping in and sorting this out before we see violence erupting again on the streets of Northern Ireland.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 08:08
Am I missing something?

Yes, massively :=

sitigeltfel
4th May 2014, 08:35
Some are comparing Adams with Mandela. Very true, both were terrorists.

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 09:09
Yes they were both terrorists but the but the operative word is "were". Thirty years after WW2 high ranking Nazis were involved in running Germany and NATO.So are we saying that once someone is involved in terrorism they can never be restored to the political process?What if the Taliban were to repent? Would we refuse to deal with them? It seems to me that we are going to let them have what they want even without repentence.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 09:41
No,I don't think it is you.Adams and McGuinness,whatever their past are now both inside the tent pissing out.The real hard men of the "Real IRA" are just itching to kick it all off again,and so it seems is someone high up in the PSNI.

McGuinness was admirable in his restraint yesterday.Cameron should be stepping in and sorting this out before we see violence erupting again on the streets of Northern Ireland.

Saddest part for me is that you and others actually believe that the likes of Adams and McGuiness are no longer part of those IRA murdering bastards :=

VP959
4th May 2014, 09:44
10Watt wrote:

My dear Sir/ Lady,

may l suggest that you google " lrish History" ?


No need to, my grandmother lived through the Easter Rising, the formation of the Free State as a halfway house, the creation of the Republic of Ireland and then the independent state of Ireland (now it's back to being the Republic of Ireland again).

Her family were brutalised by the British trying to put down dissent by the Home Rule movement (they were kicked out of their house by the infamous Black and Tans, and her sister was raped by them, in the early 1920's). At the time none of her family were IRA members, or even ardent supporters of Home Rule, but as we now know, the Black and Tans were pretty much out of control for a time, partly because many of them had been recruited from soldiers who'd fought in the Great War and were, by today's standards, probably suffering from PTSD.

Despite the horrors of British Rule in the latter stages, before Ireland became a Free State, and then a fully independent republic, the majority have now put the past behind them. That's taken three generations though; my grandmother died in the early 70's still hating the British with a vehemence that had to be experienced to be believed.

I believe that it'll take three generations at least to see any real acceptance of peace in the Six Counties. I'm no supporter of the actions of the IRA and their brethren, but there has been a very strong tendency in the British press to play up republicans as the instigators of all the violence in the region, and play down the provocation and activities of the loyalists.

As an example, I believe that the Orangemen have every bit as much right to celebrate their history and the Battle of the Boyne as the IRA have to celebrate the Easter Rising, or finally getting Home Rule in Ireland, yet the Orangemen all too often try to make their celebrations deliberately provocative to the republican population, solely for the purpose of keeping the hatred alive.

Until we can address all these lightly buried sources of continued hatred the region will be subject to outbreaks of violence, I believe. I'd love to think that a process like the truth and reconciliation commission that SA used might help, but I fear that much of the hatred is so deeply ingrained as to be impossible to erase. I once worked with a staunch loyalist from the Six Counties, who's family had farmed the same land there for 400 years. He, quite rightly, felt a strong allegiance to the British Crown and felt that his land should remain part of the United Kingdom. Unfortunately his hatred of republicans was deep and implacable. He once told me (without a trace of humour, and knowing my family history) that the only thing to do with republican babies was to spit roast them alive, to prevent them from out-breeding the loyalist population and eventually taking over his families land.

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 10:04
Well there you go Seldom,straight from the horse's mouth.I would suggest that down there in Oxfordshire,surrounded by the high minded paragons of virtue like Mr and Mrs Brooks and our glorious leader,and no doubt a fair number of the bankers who have milked this country dry you are well insulated from the sectarianism of Northern Ireland.

I can't imagine that many of the rioters that the PSNI is currently trying to spark into action will be out on the streets of Witney.So no doubt you are happy to watch as long as your own prejudices are reinforced.

sitigeltfel
4th May 2014, 10:22
Thirty years after WW2 high ranking Nazis were involved in running Germany and NATO.

The vast majority, directly involved in atrocities, would either have been executed or served long sentences. Mere membership of the party was not seen to be a crime worthy of punishment otherwise 8.5 million Germans would have been liable for prison terms.

VP959
4th May 2014, 10:27
And in case anyone thinks I'm being two one-sided in expressing my personal views of the history since partition from South of the border, then I'll make it clear that I've lived and worked in the UK most of my life, have no animosity whatsoever towards the British, or loyalists from the Six Counties, but do have an ardent hatred for all those who seek to bring about political change through terror and violence.

If the people of the Six Counties wish to remain with the United Kingdom, then that's fine by me, as long as that decision is the result of a fair and democratic process.

My own view is that we are long overdue having a referendum in the Six Counties as to what the majority wish, a referendum that's run on fair and democratic principles without interference from the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland or any of the paramilitary bodies on either side.

I suspect that the reason we haven't had such a referendum until now is because of political and paramilitary interference, but if we can hold one in Scotland, which has had an equally turbulent history with the United Kingdom (and arguably deeper sectarian hatred than seen anywhere on the island of Ireland ) then we can hold one anywhere.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 10:56
Well there you go Seldom,straight from the horse's mouth.I would suggest that down there in Oxfordshire,surrounded by the high minded paragons of virtue like Mr and Mrs Brooks and our glorious leader,and no doubt a fair number of the bankers who have milked this country dry you are well insulated from the sectarianism of Northern Ireland.

I can't imagine that many of the rioters that the PSNI is currently trying to spark into action will be out on the streets of Witney.So no doubt you are happy to watch as long as your own prejudices are reinforced.


I spent 38 and a bit years in an RAF uniform and the best part of 2 and a half of those years in the early 90's as a Helicopter Crewman flying mainly in the South Armagh and Fermanagh border areas and living at RAF Aldergrove so when it comes to the horses mouth I think I might have seen and done a bit you patronising twonk :=


Now for those who are so keen to forgive and forget have a read of what it is that Adams is actually accused of being involved in


BBC News - Jean McConville's daughter recalls mother's abduction by IRA (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24801620)


and after reading that if you still think we should simply forgive and forget march yourself outside and HAVE A FECKIN WORD WITH YOURSELF!!!!!!

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 11:05
Well why am I not surprised that you were involved in NI? It's irrelevant what Adams has done,and I suspect his involvement is considered political rather than at the sharp end.The PNSI are just trying to kick it off again,also quite possibly for political reasons.

The fact remains that you couldn't beat the IRA so eventually did the sensible thing and did a deal with them.Try doing that with The Taliban and see how far you get.The paramount aim here should be to protect the agreement and maintain the peace.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 11:32
Well why am I not surprised that you were involved in NI? It's irrelevant what Adams has done,and I suspect his involvement is considered political rather than at the sharp end.The PNSI are just trying to kick it off again,also quite possibly for political reasons.

The fact remains that you couldn't beat the IRA so eventually did the sensible thing and did a deal with them.Try doing that with The Taliban and see how far you get.The paramount aim here should be to protect the agreement and maintain the peace.

Thankfully there are some grown ups with a bit more information to hand dealing with this :ok:

VP959
4th May 2014, 11:49
It's about time that those who advocate open military attacks to counter terrorism realised that it has a long and dismal history of failure. In my lifetime I've witnessed military force being used to counter asymmetric terrorist warfare in many countries in Africa, in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Six Counties and may other places around the world.

There's a common theme; the vast majority of the time direct military action either had no effect, or makes the situation worse.

Getting back on topic, let's look at what's happened in the Six Counties since the most recent conflict ("The Troubles") arose in the 60's.

For 20 years proceeding the stepping down of the NI Prime Minister in 1963 there had been a regime in which the majority loyalist (and land owning) population were the only ones eligible to vote. If you were not a rate payer in NI you didn't have a vote, and the majority of land was owned by loyalists. The republican minority were, unsurprisingly, unhappy at being treated in this way in the latter half of the 20th century. Social housing was almost exclusively reserved for loyalist families in many areas, due to the loyalist control of local government as well as the national NI government. The situation in the 40's, 50's and early 60's in NI was akin to apartheid in SA, if you weren't a rate payer you had no vote and no say in who governed you, either at local or national level.

Reforms started in the mid-sixties, and inevitably hard-line loyalists felt threatened by republicans being given better education and jobs, and being treated more fairly by the new NI government. One loyalist paramilitary group in particular, the UVF, started a campaign of murdering republicans. The UVF were outlawed, but by then the largely republican NI Civil Rights Association were starting to react to the campaign of violence against republicans and started to campaign for equality with loyalists for housing, voting rights, jobs etc.

The RUC (which was pretty much a wholly loyalist body) over-reacted and came down heavily on protests from the civil rights protesters. Note that at this time the IRA weren't significantly involved; the initial provocation had come from the UVF and the reaction had been from the civil rights movement, who were demanding votes for all, and seeking for republicans to be treated equally to loyalists (something that had been repressed for years by the Special Powers Act).

The IRA (in the form of the Provisional IRA) started their campaign of terrorist violence as a direct consequence of the RUC (and O'Neills) suppression of the civil rights protests. The Orange Order responded by severe provocation by marching in mainly republican areas in early 1969 and open rioting between the two sides started. The British Government intervened, sent in some troops, attempted to restrict the armed activities of the RUC and initiated a series of reforms aimed at restoring peace. The biggest mistake was the formation of the UDF, a part of the British Army that quickly became associated by the republicans as what amounted to a terrorist organisation. The PIRA responded by targeting the UDF, and the campaign of terror that persisted for the next 30 years had started.

From that point on both sides were equally guilty of terrorist actions, yet for some reason many on the mainland of the UK fail to understand how the conflict started.

Imagine that you live in what you consider to be your country, a country that you were born in, that your parents were born in, and grandparents before them were born in. Because you rent your house, though, you're forbidden to vote and have no say in either local or national government.

That is the situation that existed in the Six Counties for many years before the fall of Brookeborough in 1963, who had been Prime Minister of NI for 20 years. My own view is that a certain amount of resentment from that suppressed minority of the population was inevitable, and that action should have been taken long before the belated efforts of Brookeborough's successor, O'Neill, in the mid-60's, especially given the big sociological changes that were happening elsewhere in the United Kingdom in the post-war years.

parabellum
4th May 2014, 12:16
The fact remains that you couldn't beat the IRA


The opposite is exactly the reason that the IRA agreed to come to the table.

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 12:19
A very informative analysis VP.Although I stand to be corrected by the grown-ups who do doubt prefer the Nazi methods of dealing with occupied populations.

VP959
4th May 2014, 12:52
Thanks, my grandmother drummed into me the history of the formation of Ireland and partition from an early age. I realised years ago that her views were heavily anti-British, unsurprising given what had happened to her family in her teenage years under British rule. However, it did make me curious enough to research the background to the movement that resulted in the independence of Ireland and to the situation after partition that existed under the NI Government.

I'll freely admit that I found it hard to accept then, and in fact I still find it hard to accept now, that a country within the United Kingdom positively discriminated against a population, to the extent of denying them the right to vote, right up until the 1960's.

The situation is akin to if we were to deny the right to vote to anyone who follows Islam, or who has skin of a colour other than white, and yet many seem to have accepted that denying many republican residents of the Six Counties the right to vote from the time of partition until the reforms of the 60's was an acceptable thing to do.

GrumpyOldFart
4th May 2014, 13:31
I wonder what happened to Northern Aid. Did they disband, or are they lurking out there somewhere, waiting for the next time?

VP959
4th May 2014, 13:41
I wonder what happened to Northern Aid. Did they disband, or are they lurking out there somewhere, waiting for the next time?

Last I heard NorAid were redirecting efforts into promoting tourism and funding tourist projects run within the Six Counties by republicans. I came across this entirely by accident (and the story I was told may well be apocryphal) when on holiday up in the Six Counties in a rented cottage. The landlord of the local pub assumed that I'd heard about the cottage from within some sort of republican network (which happened to be untrue - we'd booked it online, after a web search for "secluded holiday cottages").

After a week or so the landlord told me that several of the falling down local cottages had been bought up, renovated and turned into holiday lets, with funding from NorAid. This funding was conditional, apparently, on the locals toning down their partisan views, and had, allegedly, resulted in some of the local miscreants being directed towards scrubbing the green, white and orange paint off the village kerb stones.

I've no idea if it's true or not, but a bit of digging around when we returned from holiday did seem to reveal that there was a fair bit of cash being directed into tourism in the region, and little of it was coming from government sources.

Vercingetorix
4th May 2014, 13:51
VP959
The official and legal name of the region is Northern Ireland which is used by both Governments, Irish and British.

The Six Counties is a popular name among republicans. It is not a name you will hear used by Unionists.

:ok:

VP959
4th May 2014, 14:12
VP959
The official and legal name of the region is Northern Ireland which is used by both Governments, Irish and British.

The Six Counties is a popular name among republicans. It is not a name you will hear used by Unionists.



As I've mentioned before, I'm a staunch republican, and as such will use that term to more accurately describe those Six Counties of the island of Ireland that are currently ruled by the United Kingdom.

Many Unionists try and refer to the region as Ulster, to the extent of using it in their organisation titles, something that is factually incorrect. There are nine counties in Ulster, not just the six that make up what the United Kingdom refers to as Northern Ireland. The other three counties of Ulster (Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan) remain within the Republic of Ireland.

Solar
4th May 2014, 15:42
Vercingtorix
I think VP is more correct on this, the hard line Unionists talk of the six counties being NI and a lot claim that they are Ulster forgetting about the other counties in the republic.
You'll probably meet the same hard liners on holiday abroad claiming to be Irish, seems it goes down better in certain holiday spots.

VP959
4th May 2014, 15:59
It's not just the hard line Unionists, either, who use this misnomer. The media referred to the Six Counties as "Ulster" for years, the two largest loyalist paramilitary groups (the UVA and the UDF) use it in their titles, the British Army used it when they formed the UDR in the 60's, and even the police force used it in their title for may years (when they were the RUC rather than the PSNI).

This use of what is seen my many republicans as a provocative untruth was a calculated move by the then loyalist majority to antagonise the republican minority, IMHO.

Oh, and again, just to add a bit of balance, the PIRA came damned close to blowing me up at Euston station back in 1973, when I was on my way to see my then girlfriend at University College Hospital, so they are no friends of mine.

G-CPTN
4th May 2014, 16:50
BBC News - Adams 'to be freed' and report sent to Public Prosecution Service (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27278039)

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 17:14
Seldom, I'm sorry that you took exception to my contributions,but as effectively one of the combatants I would question your ability to take an evenly balanced view of the situation.I suspect that your idea is more along the lines of "Shoot all the terrorists" But as VP pointed out applying a military solution to a political situation doesn't have a great track record and as yet there isn't an example of it working.

Looking at the history of Ireland it is hard to come to any conclusion other than The British kicked it off and the indiginous population merely responded to the provocation.The Troubles were an just inevitable result of the kinds of attitude towards the native people over a long period of time.

VP959
4th May 2014, 17:53
It's a problem that all empires have faced as they dissolve, and has been repeated through history, probably since before the collapse of the Roman Empire.

As empires collapse, the subjugated nations that made up those empires fight for independence. Lacking military capability this fight is inevitably asymmetric and "terrorist" in nature. What happened in Ireland is little different to what happened in India, or what has happened more recently with the break up of the former Soviet Union.

Old rulers try to cling to power, and impose unreasonable laws in an attempt to maintain control. In the case of the partition of Ireland, having bowed to the inevitable and allowed the creation of the Free State, as a self-governing body nominally still within the UK, and then acceded to the full independence of the Irish Republic, albeit with the partitioning of the six counties, the then government of the UK, and particularly the newly formed Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland, feared that the republican minority within the Six Counties could cause further unrest.

Laws were passed to restrict the rights of republicans in that region, by giving loyalists the ability to have multiple votes in local elections, by withholding the right to vote from non-ratepayers (as loyalists made up the majority of rate payers) and by using the term "Ulster" for everything from the flag of the Executive Committee (the government of NI in Stormont) to the name of the almost entirely loyalist police force.

The whole regions government was focussed on subjugating the 30% republican population and preventing a repeat of the Home Rule movement that had resulted in the creation of the the Irish Republic.

As the UK experienced massive social change in the 50's, it was inevitable that there would be a problem in the Six Counties. There was a lot of heavy industry (shipbuilding etc) that was loyalist owned and had a predominately loyalist workforce and did very well in the post war industrial boom. It was not unlawful to positively discriminate against republicans when it came to employment, further fuelling resentment against the Executive Committee.

It was inevitable that, with 30% of the population being treated as second or third rate citizens, or worse, that there would eventually be a backlash. When the civil rights protests were countered with armed police (the infamous B Specials) and then the British Army (in the form of the newly created UDR), the result was inevitable.

The use of military force to counter civil unrest probably did more to recruit young people to the cause of the PIRA than any other single action by the British Government. It was then exacerbated by internment without trial and the suspension of trial by jury, further emphasising to the republican population that the British Government was not going to adhere to the normal rule of law in that region and was intent on suppressing republicanism no matter what.

We've see the same happen in other, more recent, conflicts, where military force has been used to try and resolve political issues. I suspect that a significant number of young radical Muslims are motivated by what they see as disproportionate use of military force in Muslim countries to which they feel a strong affinity. The result is that we probably have more potential, or even actual, terrorists amongst us now than we did before 9/11. Hardly a success, especially in terms of the cost, both in lives and money, that has been expended by all involved.

Sallyann1234
4th May 2014, 18:08
It's strange that the contributors of money to NorAid, and of weapons to the IRA, have not been assisting also the decolonisation of Hawaii.

HAWAII - INDEPENDENT & SOVEREIGN (http://www.hawaii-nation.org/)

ricardian
4th May 2014, 18:09
Report from the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2041552/Family-IRA-victim-Frank-Hegarty-insist-Martin-McGuinness-lured-death.html)

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 18:37
Seldom, I'm sorry that you took exception to my contributions,but as effectively one of the combatants I would question your ability to take an evenly balanced view of the situation.I suspect that your idea is more along the lines of "Shoot all the terrorists" But as VP pointed out applying a military solution to a political situation doesn't have a great track record and as yet there isn't an example of it working.

Looking at the history of Ireland it is hard to come to any conclusion other than The British kicked it off and the indiginous population merely responded to the provocation.The Troubles were an just inevitable result of the kinds of attitude towards the native people over a long period of time.


Once again in case you missed it


BBC News - Jean McConville's daughter recalls mother's abduction by IRA (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24801620)


Adams was being questioned because of the above, nothing else and Jean McConville was hardly a feckin MILITARY target :=


As regards taking exception, don't flatter yourself!

Effluent Man
4th May 2014, 19:00
Your surly and discourteous response illustrates far better than I ever could your uncompromising attitude and that mirrors the view of successive British governments to the Irish question.It was considered that keeping their foot on the neck of the republicans was sufficient and until 1969 it just about was.

But this just grew resentment and spawned mass support for Sinn Fein and,to a lesser extent PIRA and INLA.People such as yourself,no doubt further embittered by the loss of comrades in the conflict,merely seek to keep the fight going.There comes a time when it has to stop. Adams and McGuinness have sought to stop it.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 19:10
Your surly and discourteous response illustrates far better than I ever could your uncompromising attitude and that mirrors the view of successive British governments to the Irish question.It was considered that keeping their foot on the neck of the republicans was sufficient and until 1969 it just about was.

But this just grew resentment and spawned mass support for Sinn Fein and,to a lesser extent PIRA and INLA.People such as yourself,no doubt further embittered by the loss of comrades in the conflict,merely seek to keep the fight going.There comes a time when it has to stop. Adams and McGuinness have sought to stop it.


Adams stands accused of being complicit in the kidnapping of an innocent and non combatant mother from her family , executing her and then burying here.


Nothing more and nothing less.


If you want to attempt to dress that up in different clothes as you seek to obfuscate and take child like pot shots at me then you crack on matey!

VP959
4th May 2014, 19:15
I have to agree. I feel very strongly that McGuinness is certainly a murderer, and Adams may well have been one, or at the very least conspired to murder. However, both have sought to moderate the real hot heads in the IRA/PIRA and for that I, for one, am thankful.

I remain unconvinced that they, and their ilk, should remain perpetually immune from prosecution for past offences, though, but I do acknowledge that they did play a part in helping to break down the stalemate that the British Government had created by generating a situation where the hot head republicans felt they had no recourse except for acting violently.

The thing that makes me think twice about McGuinness, Adams, et al, was listening to the story told to me by a pretty tough soldier, who had been piloting a Lynx over Belfast and sat in the hover whilst two of his colleagues were dragged out of a taxi on te ground below and executed, solely for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even years later this big bloke had tears in his eyes at the memory of having witnessed this cold blooded murder.

People like Adams and McGuinness were responsible for many murders like this, in the name of their supposed political cause. Even as a staunch republican I find action like this repulsive, and would wish to seethe full force of law brought to bear against them, if they are guilty.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 19:19
if they are guilty.


I applaud your comments and like you I would wish for nothing more than justice.

BenThere
4th May 2014, 19:37
It amazes me still how the belligerent parties to WWII managed to put aside the egregious atrocities and outright torture, mayhem, and cruelty that was part and parcel of the conflict and become, in the case of the Allies and Japan, Italy, and Germany, key allies. At the same time, former allies, Russia and China, became the new enemy.

While there are many who lived the horror who can't bring themselves to forgive and forget, the world does move on.

All in all, there is a greater payoff in building on the peace at the formal cessation of hostilities, when an agreement or treaty has been achieved. While I haven't been affected at all by the Irish question, from a distance I think the principle holds true for the whole of Ireland. Digging up criminal charges against Adams, now that the conflict is in remission, only serves to scrape the scab.

VP959
4th May 2014, 19:44
BenThere wrote:
Digging up criminal charges against Adams, now that the conflict is in remission, only serves to scrape the scab.

But how do we square such a view with prosecuting and convicting the likes of Max Clifford, for far less serious offences, more than 30 years after they were committed?

Is there some rule that says that the law can be ignored for those that, on balance, do more good than harm? If so, how do we balance that? Should we reinstate Jimmy Savile's good reputation, because, on balance, he raised a lot of money for good causes, and somehow that offset the offences he almost certainly committed?

What can balance murder, in terms of "good works"?

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th May 2014, 19:46
only serves to scrape the scab.



No, it only serves to try to bring justice for the death of an innocent mother, nothing more and nothing less.

BenThere
4th May 2014, 19:57
Good questions, and I certainly don't have the answer to them. I simply have a sense that the greater good calls for trying to let it go in this particular case.

G-CPTN
4th May 2014, 20:21
Apart from the strength of the evidence, any prosecution has to be deemed to be 'in the public interest' by the Public Prosecution Service (http://www.ppsni.gov.uk/).

Note, not the Crown Prosecution Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Prosecution_Service) in Northern Ireland.


https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutors/codetest.html

mini
5th May 2014, 00:22
Good questions, and I certainly don't have the answer to them. I simply have a sense that the greater good calls for trying to let it go in this particular case.

There's the rub... Legally if he has a case to answer then he should be prosecuted, now that the legal end of things is supposedly independent and disinterested ie Widgery et al are RIP.

Politically its dynamite.

NI, while tentatively normal, is far from a settled, contented society, arresting this tit won't improve things either way.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 05:34
VP959
as one who was brought up in South Armagh within a local stamping ground of Keady, Killylea, Crossmaglen and edging to Forkhill, Newry, Dundalk, Monaghan, etc, I look forward to your further erudite supercilious comments re Ulster, the six counties, 1916 Easter rising, 1922, Michael Collins, the Ulster Covenant & The Ulster Declaration, etc.

Cheers

Solid Rust Twotter
5th May 2014, 07:13
Handing out a free pass in case the unwashed kick off is never a good idea. I suspect our own Glorious Leader has received a few of those and as a result has no problems demolishing the boundaries of the law for his own ends and those of his cronies, as there are no longer any consequences for those actions.


Strangely enough, they're all good mates with Adams et cie.

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 08:22
This is what puzzles me about Ireland.VP posts what I thought were considered and informative comments about the situation and someone comes back dripping with sarcasm.Let's hear what of it was supercilious,let alone untrue.

I'm an athiest and acknowledge the faults of Catholicism but as he pointed out this isn't really about religion it's about history.Historians deal in facts and the facts are that people went from mainland Britain and treated those who lived on the island very,very badly indeed.They stole their land and disrupted their lives.

Does the fact that this happened three hundred years ago matter? Well yes,but only to an extent.Because as VP pointed out (And my guess is that this is the contentious bit) It continued for another two hundred and fifty and arguably only ended with the need to settle The Troubles.

What those who are getting hot under the collar about this latest affair need to consider is this: If Germany had occupied Britain in 1940 and English terrorists/freedom fighters were now bombing Germans would they consider it justifiable and would those perpetrators be heroes or villains?

Pinky the pilot
5th May 2014, 08:29
This is what puzzles me about Ireland.VP posts what I thought were considered and informative comments about the situation and someone comes back dripping with sarcasm.Let's hear what of it was supercilious,let alone untrue.


Same goes for me. My apologies Vercingetorex but I genuinely do not understand your comment re VP959's posts.:confused:

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 08:51
You may be uncomfortable with it and I can see why.But it's an essential part of politics.Should the ANC and the Afrikaaners have fought to the death or is South Africa for all it's faults a better place today than it would have been had not deals been done? Within my lifetime I can recall Belgians,yes Belgians FFS killing each other! What was that all about,a chocolate recipe or whether to have mayonnaise on chips?

VP959
5th May 2014, 09:03
VP959
as one who was brought up in South Armagh within a local stamping ground of Keady, Killylea, Crossmaglen and edging to Forkhill, Newry, Dundalk, Monaghan, etc, I look forward to your further erudite supercilious comments re Ulster, the six counties, 1916 Easter rising, 1922, Michael Collins, the Ulster Covenant & The Ulster Declaration, etc.

Cheers

I think we just have a different perspective. I'm from just south of Ulster (Co Longford) and have a rather different view.

I've not been at all supercilious, and have been at pains to point out that, despite being a republican, I do not, and have never, supported any of the terrorist organisations that have sought to bring about political change through violence. FWIW, neither did any of my family going back to before the Rising, but that didn't stop the Black and Tans taking their house, beating them up and raping my grandmothers sister.

Sure my views are coloured by my upbringing, as, I'm sure, are yours, but I have tried damned hard over the years to understand why things happened as they did in the post-partition years.

I don't agree with, but can understand, the fears within the Executive Committee that led to the way the voting system was structured within the Six Counties, and that this was, in part, aimed at suppressing republican representation. I can also understand why O'Neills attempts to give greater rights to republicans after the demise of Brookeborough after 1963 led to the loyalist backlash and the formation and actions of the UVF. What I have a problem understanding is why, in a period when equal rights were being promulgated everywhere else in the United Kingdom, the Executive Committee were allowed (or perhaps even encouraged) to suppress the rights of around 30% of their population throughout Brookeboroughs 20 year tenure.

It seems to me that this was priming a time bomb, that was inevitably going to lead to the sectarian violence that broke out in the late 60's and continued for the next 30 years or more.

Finally, FWIW, I believe that anyone, who is suspected of committing a serious crime should be brought to trial and judged properly and fairly. If found guilty they should be sentenced in the same way as anyone else who has committed a similar crime. I don't believe we should allow politics to interfere with the law, we have already done that far too much in the Six Counties and all it has done is build up resentment, on both sides of the divide.

I also don't hold with the arguments that have been put forward by both republican and loyalist criminals that they were beyond the law, because they were at war. That appears plainly false, although given the way that some laws were seriously corrupted by government during the Troubles then I can, to some extent, understand part of their argument. There is a case for determining whether the murders and acts of violence during that period were acts of war or not, but that's one for the lawyers to argue out.

Andu
5th May 2014, 09:15
I'm a total outsider with no skin in the game from either side in this argument.

With that in mind, am I allowed to ask a question?

What in the world is gained in advancing peace between two such disparate camps by one side putting on silly bloody bowler hats and orange sashes and *** marching , sometimes through streets where the other side live FFS, to celebrate a victory over the other side some hundreds of years ago?

I know the object of the exercise is to rub the other side's noses in the fact that they lost that war, but surely to God, after a few **** centuries, it would be worthwhile just dropping the practice?

Edited to add that if they knew how silly they looked in their bowler hats and sashes to most of the world, they would do so immediately.

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th May 2014, 09:18
There is a case for determining whether the murders and acts of violence during that period were acts of war or not, but that's one for the lawyers to argue out.

Strangely enough if Adams had been arrested in connection with crimes against military targets I could almost buy into the notion of the Peace Process being more important than what could by some folk be interpreted as an act of war.

But, as I have been at pains to point out to others on here he does not stand accused of any kind of military action, he is accused of being involved in the kidnapping of an innocent civilian mother, her execution and the hiding of her body.

There is absolutely nothing noble about that and I would challenge anyone to explain how it was a necessary part of the fight. It was a cowardly attack on a defenceless woman which should now be answered for.

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 09:23
Nice try Seldom,but I think we can read between the lines.If Adams or McGuinness dropped a sweet wrapper on the street you would want them banged up.Answer me this: Do you now,or have you ever supported executing those two?

VP959
5th May 2014, 09:31
Andu,

The problem comes down to more recent history.

Following the formation of the Free State, and then the Irish Republic (now normally referred to as just Ireland or the Republic of Ireland), the loyalists in the Six Counties felt seriously threatened. They had managed to influence the United Kingdom government that they were the majority in the Six Counties (but not the majority in the region of Ulster) but they still only accounted for around 70% of that population.

For years after partition, the loyalists fought to prevent the republican minority having any say in how their country was run. It is this fear that the republicans would, one day, gain the upper hand and unite the island of Ireland into a single republic that has, I believe, caused some loyalists to constantly wish to humiliate and suppress the republican part of the population.

The use of the Battle of the Boyne as a focus for this is symbolic, it has become a rallying focus for all the pent up fear that many loyalists have that their country will, one day, become a part of the Republic of Ireland.

Yes, it does look childish and immature from a British perspective, but not from the perspective of many loyalists. There are very real fears amongst that population that if they became part of the republic they would lose their sense of identity and their history would be devalued.

There's somewhat of a parallel with the Falklands. That series of islands has been British for a few hundred years, yet still the islanders live with the fear that, one day, they will come under Argentinian rule. As a consequence you will see more union flags flying there per head of population than perhaps anywhere else that's part of the United Kingdom (except, perhaps, the Six Counties).

My own view is that it is nasty mix of fear and pride that drives a great deal loyalist provocative action, and I can't see that changing any time soon. If you talk to a few hard line loyalists (or republicans) you will quickly understand that rational compromise is not something that either will willingly accept. Given the strongly held views I'm surprised the peace is holding, to be honest, but I fear that we're not far from another outburst of conflict there, if the republican population continues to grow faster than that of the loyalists.

VP959
5th May 2014, 09:48
Seldomfitforpurpose wrote:

Strangely enough if Adams had been arrested in connection with crimes against military targets I could almost buy into the notion of the Peace Process being more important than what could by some folk be interpreted as an act of war.

But, as I have been at pains to point out to others on here he does not stand accused of any kind of military action, he is accused of being involved in the kidnapping of an innocent civilian mother, her execution and the hiding of her body.

There is absolutely nothing noble about that and I would challenge anyone to explain how it was a necessary part of the fight. It was a cowardly attack on a defenceless woman which should now be answered for.

I think this is where the legal argument has to focus on the facts. For example, was Jean McConville an "innocent civilian mother"? I have no idea if she was or not, but there must have been a reason for the IRA wanting her killed. Perhaps they suspected that she was working as an informant, or acting in some other way to aid loyalist paramilitaries, the RUC or perhaps the British Army. None of these excuse her murder, but are points that lawyers would need to argue over with regard to whether her killing was associated with an act of war or not.

My own person view is that there was no war at that time, and claims by either side that murdering spies was legitimate are false. There are equally counter claims that trial by jury had been suspended, internment for suspicion had been imposed without trial and that these are indicators of a state of war. I'm not a lawyer, which is why I suggested that it is a case for lawyers to argue out and for judgements to be made.

There is some legal precedent for treating some convicted criminals as if they had acted during a time of war, though, all those released as part of the Good Friday agreement, for example, plus those who have, allegedly, been given immunity from future prosecution for crimes committed during the Troubles.

Tankertrashnav
5th May 2014, 09:52
As a Catholic of Irish extraction (my family hailed from Mullingar in what is now the Republic) I nevertheless am always irritated by references to "silly men in bowler hats" comments, as though the loyalist community were the only ones carrying out provocative actions (and I admit they are provocative, and that they do look silly).

Would you not agree, Andu, that the widespread flying of a foreign country's flag around republican areas of Northern Irish towns and cities is not equally provocative? Also don't forget, the Ancient Order of Hibernians, basically a republican organisation also organises parades, and there are parades each year to commemorate the hunger strikes which are widely attended, including by such Sinn Fein notables as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness.

VP959
5th May 2014, 10:10
You're right, Tankertrashnav. Driving around the north always reminds me of tom cats marking their territory, with the daft demarcation at the edge of virtually every village, or parts of towns, making it clear to all which side of the divide that area is on.

My personal view is that all the flags, painted kerb stones and murals, of both sides, should be treated as graffiti and removed, but there are areas where the murals, at least, are now a tourist attraction!

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 10:46
Seldom - Fancy answering my question anytime?

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th May 2014, 11:17
Seldom - Fancy answering my question anytime?

What question :confused:

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 11:21
VP959
I would doubt that you know this but in the Bank of Ireland HQ in the Boardroom in Dublin there is a wall tapestry of William crossing the Boyne. Very impressive.
The history goes long and deep. Most of the Irish Republican leaders were of the Protestant faith, i.e Wolfe Tone, Charles Parnell, Erskine Childers, etc.
De Valera set up Michael Collins.

Cheers

VP959
5th May 2014, 11:28
VP959
I would doubt that you know this but in the Bank of Ireland HQ in the Boardroom in Dublin there is a wall tapestry of William crossing the Boyne. Very impressive.
The history goes long and deep. Most of the Irish Republican leaders were of the Protestant faith, i.e Wolfe Tone, Charles Parnell, Erskine Childers, etc.
De Valera set up Michael Collins.

Cheers

Why wouldn't I know this? My grandfather was Church of Ireland, and religion has very little to do with the conflict, as you should know better than I. I was brought up as a protestant (much to by grandmothers displeasure, as she was catholic, but married to a protestant!) and know as well as anyone else just how the media have twisted a political, historical and territorial dispute falsely into one about religious differences.

I don't know what life was like for you a few miles north, across the border, but for me religion never played a significant part in my political thinking, and still doesn't.

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 11:34
Have you ever expressed the opinon that it might be a good idea to execute Adams or McGuinness?

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 11:39
VP959

Why wouldn't I know this?
Because it is private information known only to a few so unless you move at those levels you woudn't know. It is not something they brag about in Dublin.
Religion has very little to do with the conflict. Agreed, but only amongst the educated middle clases, that is. Myself and a colleague Podraig Pearse went to Armagh Orange hall one Saturday night (1963) for the local dance. The only thing that saved Podraig's life that night was a chum of mine who was a member of the local Orange Lodge.
Tribal and stupid since Elizabeathan times and hasn't much improved in the following centuries.
Gerry Adams is a psychopath.

Cheers

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 11:48
Many politicians will be high on the psychopathy scale,it goes with the territory.That is why most of them are consummate liars,they simply have to be to survive.I have been involved in politics all my adult life,they are an odd bunch.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 11:54
Effluent Man

On the button.:ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th May 2014, 11:56
Have you ever expressed the opinon that it might be a good idea to execute Adams or McGuinness?

Finding them in the cross hairs during a military confrontation, absolutely.

Taking them from in front of their families, transporting them to an unknown location, executing them in cold blood and then hiding their bodies. Nope, that's the action of chicken sh1t cowards and is nowt but unjustified murder.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 12:05
Seldomfitforpurpose

Absolutely correct.

VP959. As an addendum Tommy Makem used to borrow my pen to sign autographs.

:ok:

VP959
5th May 2014, 12:16
Vercingetorix,

Given that religion has little influence on politics within modern Ireland (as in the republic) and that the (protestant) Church of Ireland is still thriving, despite only around 7% or 8% of the population (in the republic) declaring themselves as protestant, then it's hardly a secret that some within the political elite are protestants and that there have been protestants in high political office.

Religion wasn't a part of the Home Rule movement, that drew support from all faiths and from those with no faith. The fact that, in later years, the connection between loyalists and Protestants, and republicans and Catholics, was made by the media has largely coloured the views of many into falsely believing that the conflict was religious.

Amongst my friends I am pretty sure that there is a fairly even split between those who are Catholic, yet hold loyalist views about the Six Counties, and those who are Church of Ireland yet hold republican views about the region. This isn't something that ever got reported (AFAIK) during the troubles, and any violence or unrest was almost always (and probably falsely) attributed to one religious group or the other.

When it comes right down to basics, the conflict is purely tribal and primeval, with no grounding or support from religious belief or doctrine. Those who have killed or used violence on both sides have acted outside the Christian teaching of either religion, and should, in my view, be excommunicated from their respective churches or congregation.

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 12:20
How many civilans came in the cross hairs on military operations? as far as I understand it the latest PSNI wheeze was to try to pin IRA membership on Adams.That being the case,unless proven,he's a civilian.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 12:34
VP959
when you walk in Dundalk of a Saturday afternoon or in Boston you get besieged by Republican sympathisers selling flags for 'our boys' in the Crumlin.
I recall the Glenanne massacre of innocents, one of whom was the father figure to an orphanage in Mountnorris.
Sab dastards, the I Run Away.

VP959
5th May 2014, 12:39
How many civilans came in the cross hairs on military operations?

Quite a lot, often with traumatic consequences both for the families of those shot and for the soldiers who shot them. An acquaintance of mine was on a check point (as a serving British soldier) late one night when a car (later found to have been stolen and driven by kids joy riding) failed to stop when challenged and drove straight through. One of the kids fired a starter pistol out of the car, and my acquaintance thought he was under fire, so fired back. He killed a 14 year old lad who's only crime was to be stupid enough to be in the back seat of a stolen car.

He's never got over the guilt, was medically discharged from the army and even now, nearly 30 years later breaks down in tears from time to time over it.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 12:52
VP959
I feel that we are digressing. There is something psychopathic in the Irish make up in that they like killing each other. Disqus!

G-CPTN
5th May 2014, 13:05
v6k1lml4AvE

Pinky the pilot
5th May 2014, 13:09
Vercingetorex and VP959; Thank you both for your most informative posts on this thread, especially the last few.

I feel that I have learned something. All rather sad though.:sad:

VP959
5th May 2014, 13:15
VP959
I feel that we are digressing. There is something psychopathic in the Irish make up in that they like killing each other. Disqus!

I think there's nothing further from the truth. I've met far, far more violent people from other lands, and would suggest that the Irish as a whole are inclined to be more peaceful and forgiving that many.

There are a small minority in one part of the island who have grown up to believe that hating another small minority is normal, and that violence is the only way to correct what they see as any injustice, but we're talking about a very small number of people out of the total population of the island.

500N
5th May 2014, 13:18
Some people from most countries will always be able to inflict violence on others of the same country. You just need for them to have a "just" cause.
Injustice is one that will propel people to violence.

It's in built into a lot of people but suppressed.

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th May 2014, 13:30
There are a small minority in one part of the island who have grown up to believe that hating another small minority is normal, and that violence is the only way to correct what they see as any injustice, but we're talking about a very small number of people out of the total population of the island.

That is spot on. Chatted with great friends yesterday whose English/Canadian daughter currently lives in Belfast with her Irish Catholic partner and their kids. Belfast now sounds like light years from the Belfast I knew in the early 90's however the future son in law is still as vehemently Republican as ever.

As rude as this will sound it will take several generations for the hatred to breed itself out ON BOTH sides of the small divide that's left. The daughter is adamant that her kids are not being bought up to hate the opposition, despite the dad's intolerance and until that attitude to parenting is completely accepted across the land the hatred will continue.

VP959
5th May 2014, 13:31
VP959
when you walk in Dundalk of a Saturday afternoon or in Boston you get besieged by Republican sympathisers selling flags for 'our boys' in the Crumlin.
I recall the Glenanne massacre of innocents, one of whom was the father figure to an orphanage in Mountnorris.
Sab dastards, the I Run Away.

The fact that there are misguided people who see the terrorists of the IRA, UVF, UDA, PIRA, Real IRA etc as heroes saddens me. Thankfully the tide seems to be turning away from terrorism as a fix for a political dispute, and I sincerely hope that the trend continues.

One can be a republican supporter and not support the IRA, PIRA Real IRA etc, just as one can be a loyalist and not support the UVF, UDA or even the more violent elements of the Orange Order.

It is for all the people of the Six Counties to decide on their future, as democratically as is possible, and without interference from any outside body, including the British and Irish governments, as well as the terrorist organisations.

VP959
5th May 2014, 13:38
As rude as this will sound it will take several generations for the hatred to breed itself out ON BOTH sides of the small divide that's left. The daughter is adamant that her kids are not being bought up to hate the opposition, despite the dad's intolerance and until that attitude to parenting is completely accepted across the land the hatred will continue.

You're right, it will take generations for the hatred to breed itself out. My grandmother had an extreme hatred for the British, as a consequence of what happened to her family in the early 20s at the hands of the Black and Tans. She never forgave the British, not even when she was in her 70's, and maintained a hatred so deep that even my mother occasional made us leave the room when grandmother was having a rant.

Belfast has changed massively in recent years. I used to go shopping there in the early-90's and it was pretty much a war zone in places. Now, with the exception of the obvious areas, much of the city is thriving, with little outward sign of the troubles.

Vercingetorix
5th May 2014, 14:00
VP959
one would hope so having been a regular user of the Abercorn Bar.

Pinky the Pilot. The best take on the Irish Dilemma is a book by the late Spike Milligan. It is called Puckoon and is really rather funny. Excellent read.
:ok:

Solar
5th May 2014, 15:18
VP
Talks a lot of sense.
Two Scotsmen cast up on a desert island, being Scots they form a Burns society.
Two Irish lads in the same scenario devide the island North & South and commence to fighting.
Two English, they ignore each other as they haven't been introduced!!!

Effluent Man
5th May 2014, 16:31
VP, I agree re The Irish.When I was young I had a summer job working with a load of medical students from Dunlaoghaire (I think that's the spelling,they called it Dun-leery) They were a really great bunch and we became friends.Had it not been for the distance I could have ended up married to one of them.

Effluent Man
6th May 2014, 08:04
While I accept your criticism I nevertheless think that you have to take into account all the consequences of such actions and whether it justifies what you want to achieve.How the hell would you make up the jury anyway? Six Protestants and six Republicans? Good luck with that one.

Republicans would certainly argue that there are ex army officers equally open to prosecution for Bloody Sunday.Given the available evidence today that is a tricky one to counter if you wish to pursue Adams.

VP959
6th May 2014, 08:25
How the hell would you make up the jury anyway? Six Protestants and six Republicans? Good luck with that one.

This was the argument that caused the suspension of trial by jury in the Six Counties (with the creation of the Diplock courts in the early 70's) and has ended up (together with internment on suspicion, with no trial) as being one of the key points used to claim that the conflict in that region was a war, therefore rules of war should apply when it comes to trials for violence or murder.

It's the reason I mentioned previously in this thread that the trial for murder of prominent terrorists on both sides is a thorny issue to be decided by lawyers. The fact is that the normal right for someone charged with a serious offence, such as murder, to be tried by a jury of their peers, was suspended in the Six Counties for around 30 years. Some would argue that this amounted to a declaration of martial law, something I don't happen to agree with, but there certainly is a case that normal rules of justice were not applied to either side during the most violent period of the Troubles.

Effluent Man
6th May 2014, 09:23
You probably already guessed that I have an interest in the Ireland situation.It's a sad but fascinating piece of modern history with a lot of victims and no winners.What has struck me over the years is the simplistic attitudes that exist especially on the mainland.

My guess is that the Real IRA are knuckle dragging thugs but that many of the others involved have more complex reasons for their involvement. Unfortunately many won't allow that people change and continue with the same old mantra that serves to prevent progress.

Thank you for all your informative posts that I have read with interest.

Seldomfitforpurpose
6th May 2014, 09:42
Republicans would certainly argue that there are ex army officers equally open to prosecution for Bloody Sunday.Given the available evidence today that is a tricky one to counter if you wish to pursue Adams.

Many believe there is plenty of available evidence that has simply never yet and never will see the light of day. The notion that there has been full disclosure from the IRA about the actual events of that day is laughable :=

Effluent Man
6th May 2014, 14:57
It has to be both available and credible and I would imagine that there is more vitriol directed from within the ranks of the IRA towards Adams than from without.He is considered to have sold out to The Brits and shaking hands with royalty and establishment figures will have done little to diminish it.Out of interest how would you make up the jury for any trial of Gerry Adams?

fitliker
6th May 2014, 21:24
If peace breaks out and everyone gets along , not only will the overtime be cut in some departments, but there may even be some redundancies and cost savings made.
Wouldn't that be nice :)

500N
6th May 2014, 21:27
"Out of interest how would you make up the jury for any trial of Gerry Adams?"


6 with 7.62 rifles and 6 with 9mm pistols ;)

And a foreman to tie on the black band if required !

Effluent Man
7th May 2014, 07:26
And assumiing a balanced jury of six protestants and six republicans Mr Adams would probably emerge unscathed.

But it was a serious question really,how could you possibly have a jury for such a trial?

Akrotiri71
7th May 2014, 07:37
Don't think I'd like to be on that jury EM. Lord knows what intimidation could arise if your identity was revealed......:uhoh:

I think it would be a "panel" of judges?

VP959
7th May 2014, 08:29
Don't think I'd like to be on that jury EM. Lord knows what intimidation could arise if your identity was revealed......

I think it would be a "panel" of judges?

So a return to the Diplock courts of the 70's, 80's and 90's then? These were always seen as a part of the problem - those with a mind to interpreted them as being the suspension of normal justice and the imposition of a military form of judgement, hence the view by some that this was a state of war, not civil unrest.

The same problem arises with a panel of judges. Most judges in the region are seen as loyalist (hardly surprising, they have to swear an oath to the crown, I believe). No republican will view being tried by a panel of, probably mainly loyalist, judges as being fair.

This is at the heart of the problem over justice and peace keeping in the Six Counties. Neither the police service nor the judiciary are seen as being impartial. In the case of the police service proof that they acted in support of loyalist causes has been revealed a few times, which tends to support that view (and contributed to the reforms that caused the RUC to be renamed the PSNI and to a campaign to ensure it was better balanced in terms of membership from both sides of the divide).

Seldomfitforpurpose
7th May 2014, 08:43
Don't think I'd like to be on that jury EM. Lord knows what intimidation could arise if your identity was revealed......:uhoh:

I think it would be a "panel" of judges?


Perhaps its time for those who believe that Northern Ireland has turned the corner and is the peaceful and progressive place they espouse to put their collective money where their mouth is and trust their good and honest people to do the Right Thing.


Would certainly be a real chance to show the world just how much things have changed. However if the the childlike spat over the simple flying of a flag outside public buildings is anything to go by it will probably only show how little things have actually changed since the Peace Outbreak :(

Akrotiri71
7th May 2014, 09:44
A return to a Diplock type court, (one single judge), is not the answer at all.

That's why I suggested maybe a panel of judges.

And if NI can show the world that it has moved on, and crimes committed of a political nature could be successfully tried by jury, without the possibility of any sectarian intimidation from either side....all the better.

Effluent Man
7th May 2014, 15:15
I think the problem with a panel of judges is that the background of those comprising the panel would come under scrutiny.How many people who reach such a level manage to do so without any kind of sectarian baggage? If they are known to be either Protestant or Catholic then any verdict of Guilty/Not Guilty respectively will be tainted.If the reverse,then their God would need to help them.

I would suggest that any such trial would serve to undermine the peace that currently exists within NI.

pigboat
8th May 2014, 15:46
One man's take on it.

John Derbyshire from Taki's Magazine: Children of Wrath. (http://takimag.com/article/children_of_wrath_john_derbyshire#axzz318PppPfE)

..Hence the political calculations behind the rise to respectability of Adams, Mandela, and others in their category. “Let justice be done though the heavens fall” may be an appealing slogan, but probably only if you have never actually been in the neighborhood when the heavens did fall.

So Gerry Adams will walk. He will likely be reelected to political office by admiring voters. Perhaps, like his fellow-murderer Martin McGuiness, he will be presented to the Queen as victims of the IRA terror squads seethe and weep. It’s not justice, but it is rational statecraft. Truly we are the Children of Wrath.


Please share this article by using the link below. When you cut and paste an article, Taki's Magazine misses out on traffic, and our writers don't get paid for their work. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Children of Wrath - Taki's Magazine (http://takimag.com/article/children_of_wrath_john_derbyshire/print#ixzz318ShJ0WZ)

skydiver69
8th May 2014, 15:57
Why is Adams being treated so differently by Sinn Fein when other suspects have also recently been arrested in relation to McConville's murder? They don't seem to have made any fuss about other arrests or don't the arrests of ordinary men have the same significance of an alleged terrorist turned politician?

Effluent Man
8th May 2014, 17:53
I guess that the answer to your question is that he is not suspected of direct involvement in the killing but of being connected to an organisation (The IRA)concerned with the commission of the crime.

This probably makes it much more difficult to get the charge to stick and so they rowed back a bit and went for the membership alone.Then decided the game wasn't worth the candle,gave him his breakfast and took him home.

VP959
8th May 2014, 22:14
This hits the nail on the head, I think.

The most effective way to get at Adams has always been to try and prove that he was an active member of a prohibited terrorist organisation (and the IRA is, both in Ireland and the Six Counties). Adams was clearly linked to the case, as he had at least one meeting with the family at the time. I think the hope was that they'd get enough evidence to prove (beyond reasonable doubt) that at the time he was both a Sinn Féin member ( perfectly legal) and an officer in the IRA (wholly illegal).

Many have very strongly suspected that Adams was an officer, or a highly influential adviser, in the IRA, but he has been canny enough to never allow enough evidence to be gathered to prove this. My personal view is that he was almost certainly very highly connected with the IRA for years, but that he's far too clever (or has "influenced" the right people) that this will never be proved to a standard that would end up with him being convicted.

Seldomfitforpurpose
8th May 2014, 23:52
Many have very strongly suspected that Adams was an officer, or a highly influential adviser, in the IRA, but he has been canny enough to never allow enough evidence to be gathered to prove this. My personal view is that he was almost certainly very highly connected with the IRA for years, but that he's far too clever (or has "influenced" the right people) that this will never be proved to a standard that would end up with him being convicted.


Which if we are to believe the McConville family is right on the money.

500N
8th May 2014, 23:58
I don't doubt he had a hand in it like you said and the fact you have
the whole family saying it.

It's just how much can be pinned on him ?

I would say not enough.

Seldomfitforpurpose
9th May 2014, 00:11
It's just how much can be pinned on him ?





Imagine just 10% of how much must be known about who, what and where on both sides of the divide that will never see the light of day because of undying loyalty to the cause or fear and then you get close to just how far away from normality NI is...........


Peace, there is no peace in NI there is just fear of reprisal...............

500N
9th May 2014, 00:18
"on both sides of the divide"

Dead right.


I have never thought that it was only one sided with the IRA to blame,
I remember when the Prot's really started fighting back and it really
was tit for tat for a while.

And then of course you have the various Gov't agencies and the
behind the scenes stuff they did.