BA Cadets... current job offers from the company.

[Sick Squid]

I've debated with myself how best to get this topic aired, because I feel it is extremely important. Those of you who who are not currently furloughed BA cadets who read and wish to respond negatively, please think twice; I've been in a similar position to what I'm counselling on here and understand the motivation, and also am aware that the topic itself may trigger certain responses. This is aimed at a very few people, most of whom I know read the PPruNe website...... it is not the ideal forum for this, but is the best we have available.

If BA offers you ANY, and I mean in bold ANY flying job on whatever fleet under whatever terms and conditions (remember, it is a secondment) I must recommend in the strongest terms possible that you accept these jobs. They are not what you thought they would be, but in the current economic climate holding out for something else is, in my opinion, and those of my peers to whom I have spoken over the weekend, foolish in the extreme. Whatever you are offered, accept, wherever it is.

Do not turn these jobs down thinking that there will be another, more mainline seat on the way soon... that may indeed happen; after you have accepted a secondment those 2 courses below you may get A320LHR. Also, they may not, they may remain unemployed for several years. You may be placing yourself in the position of having been seen not to accept an offer from the company negotiated (and indeed created) for your benefit, possibly losing seniority in the process (though if you are already on the list that won't apply, I think.) That is the company angle... the personal angle is simply that the fleets and types they are offering are ideal starting points for your career in aviation, and will do you way more good than starting on an A320 in the longer term. There may be moves involved to "remote" parts of the UK which will have to be balanced against established roots, but again I would counsel looking to get the flying job and experience first and foremost, and making everything else fit later.

OK, so it seems a hard choice. It is not what you were told to expect, or inded created the expectation in yourselves to expect. Let me tell you the story of 4 cadets in 1991. There they were, 3 weeks out of Prestwick, sitting in the penthouse bar of the Regal Airport Hotel Hong Kong, overlooking Kai Tak, having done the Cathay Pacific selection in its entirety, the first BA cadets to do so. The flight for LHR was due to depart in 3 hours. That entire time was spent working out how we (yes, we!) were going to turn down the CX job. (Ok, and drinking a few expensive San Miguels as well!) After all, we were only going to be "Second Officers." Cruise pilots. No hands-on below 10,000 feet. And BA were going to give us jobs in 3 to 6 months, weren't they? They'd told us exactly that, not 2 months previously. So why sign a 3-year contract with CX? Why up and move to Hong Kong? Sign-on the dole for 6 months and then go into the RHS of a 757.

Over the weekend following, one-by-one, we all phoned each other. The call was always the same..."Errr, I've been thinking. If they offer it to me.. I, err, I think I'll take it." "Yeah, so do I." "I'm not sure when BA will have a place..." "No, if truth be told, neither am I..." And we were all offered, and we all accepted, and it was the oh-so correct decision, even though it seemed oh-so possibly wrong at the time.

3 years later I was offered the RHS of an ATP out of Aberdeen, and took it... in preference to a CX First Officer position (and the edit is to add, with the long-term view and 20-20 hindsight, this was one of the better decisions of my aviation career to date! It took me at least 4 years to realise that, but it's true...!). Oh, sorry, initially, I was told it was 737 Manchester, 737 Birmingham, or 737 Scotland, but after we'd signed the contracts it turned into ATP, take it or.... resign, I suppose. And you know what? I had 2 of the best years of my life up there, learnt more about flying than I thought possible, scared myself fartless numerous times, and am ( in my opinion! :)) a more rounded, better aviator for the experience. Also, for the record, almost every place below the 4 of us ex-CX got a 737 LGW or Regional seat, and the mainline courses on LHR757 or 320 were about 15 courses below us, roughly 2.5 years in college time as it was then.

So why bother putting all the above into print? Because I know what you are thinking... I've been there. The people here who choose to put the boot in normally under whatever identity, and may do so below this post won't have been. Ignore them.

If anyone is in this position and wants to talk it through, to get a different perspective, then feel free to e-mail me. I have absolutely no management axe to grind, just a genuine concern to try to give the best advice possible as I see it from my position; the position of a normal line pilot in the company.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

£6

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[InFinRetirement]

Did our £6 forget to mention that he is now a A320 Captain? He did! Well he is - good innit! And I know he's good too.

Oh dear, he'll be redder than a beetroot now! :D

[BusyB]

SS, My congratulations on a very good bit of advice. I, too, was offered an indefinite period on bomb disposal ( searching Tel Avivs and Belfast flts for bombs) and a seniority number or a flying position in the frozen North. I took the later and have never regretted it despite the loss of 25 places of seniority. A good exchange for two years flying. I second your advice although I would not recommend Cathay at present.
As someone who probably trained you at CX my congratulations also on your command. Brgds

[Sick Squid]

Yeah, IFR, a very junior 320 skipper, staring at the rapidly expanding ranks of directed Classic and 757 guys above me. The important thing is to be in a flying job during a recession, then try to build a buffer of seniority before the next one. You well know that, having provided home to a few ex-BA cadets in your time, no?

History in BA pilot recruitment terms has a habit of repeating itself. I was lucky enough to gain experience of that second-hand from flying with gentlemen like BusyB above. I think this instance will be no different, and the same temptations and reactions will apply as happened in the last occurences. Pessimistic, possibly, but I'd rather someone said it than no-one (and I cracked first DNR! )

£6

[InFinRetirement]

It makes no difference if you are junior or senior you are in the LHS on merit and ability. Something to be justifiably proud of my man. And yes, you have a job. That is something to be thankful for.

You well know that, having provided home to a few ex-BA cadets in your time, no?

This is true. 15 to be precise. They all came from Hamble and not one of them had more than 223hrs. They flew as well as anyone I knew then, I flew with all of them and they made a lasting impression me. They do now too, because each one is back with BA - all Captains with three or four as Training Captains.

But you are right. Take what comes along and wait. They did, and look where they are now. The aircraft I had, like you with the ATP, gave them a different slant on flying, and it helped them no end.

As I keep saying. Go get what you can NOW!!! If you have a CPL/IR you can fly commercially so go and do it. Just keep pushing your nose in the door, and do not listen to anyone who says you are not capable - your licence says you are!

[moggie]

£6 - my younger brother got caught in the same trap ex-Prestwick but although he did not get the CX job (desite applying and getting an interview) he was faced with some tough calls, too.

He had a choice -pass up BA and go look elsewhere or hang on as the job was "guaranteed, just don't know when". He chose to hang on but did not just sign on the dole - he went after ANYjob he could find within BA. He ended up in Customer Services on the check-in desk at LHR (having rejected Cabin Crew).

Now, some people would say "why reject CC?" - well his reasoning was that it would have been torture to be serving the tea down the back while guys who were 2 courses ahead at PIK were driving. So he went all out to do the best he could at customer services and in the few years he did it he got promoted to supervisor, earned pension credits and staff travel rights, made loads of friends (still good mates) and learned a great deal about the other side of aeroplane ops.

He (and I) believe that he benefitted from this and although he was not flying he was with his chosen employer and learning from the experience. However, whether a flying job elsewhere would have been better or worse experience no-one can say, but he is now a 777 FO with a good reputation within the company (and the loyalty displayed could not hurt!).

I tend to agree with you, go for any flying job you can get - it could easily be 2 years before BA start hiring CEPs from the pool (although my money is on a bit less than that) so experience gained at someone else's expense will stand you in good stead.
Best of luck guys - job hunting at present is not a pleasant experience.

[clear prop!!!]

Nice posts £6 and IFR... good to see some positive thinking!

Thanks

[Sick Squid]

Moggie, you've provided another side of the issue, which highlights the pull between getting the foot in the door and waiting, or actively taking your chances elsewhere; either way, an offer will come some time. The gamble is precisely when, and even with the best information available at the time you make the choice you are still trading on outdated data (vis Sept 11th, all the set-in-stone predictions just vanished.) On a personal level, factors such as age, relationships, family etc. all colour the decision.

Your brother's situation that you state above is slightly different to the one I'm trying to address at the moment, which is the reason why I'm walking on eggshells with this one. The current offers being made are to subsidiary airlines' fleets, on secondment, in some cases a single posting to a base, and are as far as I am aware being made to those already in a holding position within the company.

There is a great temptation to sit-it-out and wait for better. I think all of us who have been through these similar situations in the past whilst understanding (and indeed empathising with) that temptation would advocate accepting the first offer that comes along, no matter what type or where. With an eye on the worst-case scenario, there is no substitute for actual experience, and the sooner that can be gained the better. For example, even though I'm fairly well into the BA seniority list, and still relatively young, it is a comfort to have jet command time in the logbook on 2 types. Indeed, that was a major factor in my applying for command rather than staying longhaul RHS, comfortable position that it was.

This aviation World has changed, and BA has changed with it. Although I firmly believe in the integrity of the promise to offer jobs to all cadets, circumstances can change the ability to offer jobs almost on a whim. Therefore, I'd say take the first flying job you can; if it is within BA under a secondment, all the better, if it is outside, well needs must and you will have some choosing to do later on. OK, one of aviations better choices it has to be said, but a difficult choice for those faced with it nonetheless.

CX was excellent, by the way, but I don't feel the company I worked for bears any relation to the one that exists now, even were it to be an option. BA and CX got their heads together before CX approached us then, so in a way it could be seen as similar to what is on the table now.

£6

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Allright <cue popeye) I can't takes it no mores!

If you are a BA cadet and you decline an offer to go fly some turboprop with Brymon, British Regional, City Flyer or whatever they are all called this week you NEED YOUR HEAD READ.

And that IS NOT an invitation for the silver spoon BA cadet bashing brigade to stir out of their hovels.

BA will doubtless put you on the master seniority list so you won't be loosing that all so important number in the system.

The flying experience in the Regions will do you good. Simple as that.

You might well find you enjoy blatting around the Highlands and Islands much more than performing an FMC hold at MID in your
electric Scarebus anyway.

I do worry about what will happen to the Wannabes out there desperate to get into the regional airlines. There are sponsored guys (Airtours) already out there doing this work with Brit Regional and the like and I bet they don't need a load of BA cadets hoving into view for their job security...

Any offer of this nature by BA is bad news for the Wannabe population - much better they opt to stack photocopy paper in the Compost Centre than take the regional RHS.

That does not change the fact that for and BA cadet in the system it would be very much in their best interests to take the very first RHS BA offer them. Just becuase you were expecting an A320 you should never ever turn your nose up at a Twin Otter instead.

The responsibility and standards of being a Professional Pilot are exactly the same regardless of how many rows of Pax sit behind you.

I appreciate £6 delicate airing of this issue.

I reiterate undelicately - any BA cadet not taking the first RHS offered NEEDS THEIR HEAD READ.

Good luck one and all,

WWW


ps to all self sponsored Wannabes - the chances of the getting that first job in a J41, Dash 8, ATP just took another good kicking. Sorry.

[foghorn]

I know WWW, but life is about taking the knocks....

Positive foggy.

[exeng]

Just to say I'm with £6 100% on this one.

Over the years I have flown numerous times with a decent chap who was then a Steward in BA and now a CSD. This chap had successfully completed one of the last Hamble Pilot courses. Unfortunately there were no Pilot jobs available and so he started a 'temporary' job as Cabin Crew until a Pilot vacancy became available. The years passed and still no vacancies. He never did get that offer of a flying job as his licence had effectively lapsed.

Some of his colleagues on that Hamble course took whatever flying job they could and I would guess that the majority are Captains now, although probably not flying for BA.

I wish you all well.


Regards
Exeng

[Ontheairwaves]

I CANT TAKE THIS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!
Who cares about BA or Aer Lingus cadets and what they get up to or don't get up to.
I have friends in both the UK and Ireland who have gone the self improver route and are now out looking for jobs in the same situation as the above mentioned.
WHY??? and HOW????
Why do these kids get preferential treatment and get offered jobs with other airlines that the self improvers don't and
how come these "cadets" need to be spoon fed so much....is it because of the money they've spent....don't think so because it's the airlines who spend the money....or perhaps the airlines are saving their "gifted" students for when the industry picks up.....
I can't really understand what all the fuss is about....don't these cadets have a brain between them.....if the self improvers are out there doing their best then i say let the cadets sort themselves out.....it will then prove just how many of them are ACTUALLY interested in the job and making a career for themselves...rather than what their "Capt Daddy" wants them to be.
IF the airlines say had an open day for ALL the pilots out there who have recently qualified then perhaps more of the self improvers would have alot more time for cadets and the cadets would learn to pull the finger out of their asses and do something constructive......

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give this topic a rest why do we have to talk about how the cadets are doing....no-one mentions those self improvers and how they are doing to get jobs in the industry.......
Give me a bucket quick.... :mad: :confused: :mad: :eek: :eek:

[Sick Squid]

I initially had a long explanatory post in here, but now realise that all the explaining has been done. This entire thread is aimed at preventing a few people from making fundamental mistakes due to lack of information. That it is specifically targeted, and indeed only relevant to BA Cadets who have been laid off in the very uncertain time that is the start of a recession was made clear at the beginning.

There are only rumours that cadets have turned jobs down or are thinking of doing so, and only one or two at that. It may be for valid personal reasons, but as I believe it they do not have to give their final choices for another few weeks yet. All I'm trying to do is use this thread to provide relevant information and reasoned argument...

£6

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[emu]

Having spent god knoes how many K in pursuit of a professional licence, as well as the personal sacrifices etc (after BA told me twice I wasn't motivated enough); this thread is almost offesnive! If these BA gimps don't take the opportunities presented to them then I don't know why they were offerd the so-called "golden ticket" in the first place.

[flite idol]

back in the early 90`s I met a bloke who got a BA cadetship or what ever they called it then. Upon graduation the class had to select base and equipment preferences, he wanted Tri-stars LHR but got Tri-stars at Gatwick. I think that they were required to live within X miles of their base so that meant he would have to move. He did not want to do this so he got on the blower to his classmates and found a chap that got narrowbodies at LHR (apparently they all wanted a widebody assignment) and traded with him. They all thought he was crazy but half way through type training Desert Storm kicked off and the Tri-stars were sent to the desert (a different one). The folks on the Tri-star course did`nt fly for years and some never did again while the geezer I met was happily whizzing around europe in his Airbus. He is probably a skipper now so basically a bird in the hand and all that cods.

[moggie]

WWW and sick squid have hit the nail on the head. Take any job going!

It is tempting to hold out for that dream posting - but if you do you may miss out and fall a long way behind the pace.

There is an old maxim that says "it is easier to change a job than to get one" and I agree wholeheartedly with that. BA have spent a great deal of money training these cadets and are fully within their rights to place them with one of their wholly owned subsidiaries such as CityExpress or City Flyer. BA would like to see their pilots gaining experience and as WWW says the short-haul regional stuff is the BEST you can get at an early stage of your career.

As for those who think this thread offensive - sorry. These guys went through a long and exhaustive selection procedure which offered them a training course with no guarantee of a job at the end (although they are bonded to BA even if none is offered!). You may think that they are over privileged but that is not the case - they have just had a little good fortune along with their hard work.

As someone who trains these cadets I have to say (and no offence intended but I expect some to be taken!)the overall standard of their performance in training is IN GENERAL higher than that of the self-spomsored cadets. Now, I don't know why - it could be a very good selection procedure or the close monitoring of their training from the sponsor - but it is true. i think it is therefore only fair that the airline looks after them ahead of anyone not trained by BA (not withstanding the fact that they have invested a few quid!).

Again folks - take any job going and then lobby for the one you want, you will be doing so from a position of strength.

As for the Ex-Hamble CSD, I am sure that had he lobbied hard enough rather than "waiting for an offer" he would have got that flying job.

[rahaney]

Hi

Any hints or rumours when sponsorship is opening again?

Cheers

[El Desperado]

Well.. if any BA cadet turns down an offer of a RHS with the regionals they should be binned on the spot.

There might be a pay differential, but as they don't have £40k loans hanging over their heads for their training.....

As many have said, turboprop flying into Little Shortley upon Atlantic at night.. in winter.. in 50kt+ winds...etc etc etc - great start to a career. I don't know how WWW and co. who hop into the RHS of a large jet from puddlejumpers cope with it !

I understand the Airtours cadets currently with BA have been told they are staying there indefinitely. Any sign of them resigning or throwing toys ? Nope.. 'cos they're on the seniority list at AIH and they know they just have to wait a bit longer.

Agree with WWW... (http://WWW...) end of lots of places for hard-working self-improver types desperately looking for that first regional job.

[Sick Squid]

El Desperado, you are quite right in a lot of what you say, and thanks for not resorting to mindless attack to get the point across.

I started this thread because I wanted to stop people making a mistake I could so easily have made myself a few years ago. All I'd heard was a rumour that some were considering waiting for something better to come along, and as I'd been there in the past and survived it intact wanted to get some information out there.

I now know, from e-mails and the BA private forum that NO-ONE of the very few involved is indeed actually doing what was rumoured and turning a turboprop job on secondment down to wait for a mainline jet. That was my main aim, and that it deals with issues that affect only those on the BA scheme, and dilemmas that we are all well aware are luxuries in the big aviation picture I also know only too well. That the vast majority of people didn't react, and allowed the message to get across with only the minimum of "sick bucket" reaction, I thank you for that.

Read my original post... information is what we lacked when the recession threw my cadet vintage out of our so-called guaranteed jobs, but fortunately we made a correct decision based on what little we had, and luck. I targeted my post specifically at those recent graduates, and used this forum because they will not all have access to our private BA forum, and I know the vast majority read PPRuNe. That it would create a discord with those not in the scheme, and not subject to the different perception of the aviaton World that applies when there is always the chance of a BA job in the back pocket, I was/am more than aware of.

As to the BA scheme, I make no apologies whatsoever for it.... everyone on it works damn hard to get there, damn hard to complete it and it is times like this that show just how aviation can bite everyone. That a BA graduate is in a better position than most absolutely no-one would dispute, least of all the cadets themselves; after all, they didn't have to front-up the cash, and only repay their costs through salary (these days.) I have never flown with or met a cadet entry pilot who felt otherwise.

As to the reduction in jobs at the turboprop end of the market, I'd offer 2 views. Firstly, that was an inevitable occurence the minute BA annexed such airlines as CFE and Brymon et-al fully into the fold, particularly at a time like this when they (BA) have cash investments on the dole. Secondly, the minute the market picks up again, the cadets seconded will be moved to mainline, and any future cadets will be hoovered up by those mainline fleets as well, leaving in my opinion the opportunities on the turboprops exactly as they were before, subject to any variation in supply/demand.

Only my opinion of course, but the only areas I feel qualified to comment upon in this forum are ones pertaining to BA. I'll continue to do that, but don't feel the need to wear a hair shirt and flagelate myself senseless just yet simply because of my background. Unless I'm paid cash, up front, that is.......... :) £6

[Ontheairwaves]

Moggie
I don't understand your logic
Friends of mine went the self sponsored route
paid the money themselves...went to Oxford
and didn't have a guarantee of a job at the end either.....
Now why should this make them lesser pilots than the ones who are sponsored by the airlines???
I fail to see where the difference is....yes they have gone through a selection process...but that just means that they've satisfied the airlines requirements...still doesn't mean they will get through the course or be capable of completing the course
So please explain what makes the difference between an airline cadet from Oxford and a self sponsored cadet from Oxford...
The airline cadet pays money back to the airline through his/her pay cheque and the self sponsored cadet pays the loan back to the bank through his/her pay cheque too...
I STILL can't see any difference.....
:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[El Desperado]

So if no-one is turning down the places then it goes to show what sensibly-minded young aviators BA turns out ;)

I have no axe to grind with BA. Apologies, SS, if you thought I did - many of my friends went through just that scheme and only one of them failed to make the grade. This one person refused to take no for an answer, borrowed the money, and finished his course. He now flies Saab340s. Result, in my book.

Your post did, though, bring to the fore the perception amongst some, and I stress *some*, young wannabees, that somehow a turboprop makes you less of a pilot than a jet. How wrong they are, as well you know.

I think your captains who find these TP-trained FOs next to them in a year or two will be pleasantly surpised at how professional they are compared to the people straight out of JOC. My tuppence !

Cheers