Returning to flying?

[returnofaking]

Afternoon,

Chaps i'm in need of some advice. I am a former bus pilot, i joined easy back in 2003 and left in November 2008.

To leave the profession that i had wanted to be a part off since being a child was very hard but a family member was diagnosed with a terminal condition and it fell to me to become a full time carer. :{ Five years later i'm free to resume living my life.

I want to come back, i know what i must do to come back but the question is should i? I've been offered a job by a friend with a hedge fund and well to put it bluntly the money is tempting me. I loved being a pilot but the industry has changed so much, i'm just wondering if it is still worth it?

I'm not sure what advice i'm looking for, i just needed to talk to someone :ugh:

[dudubrdx]

Putting it bluntly, I'd say Aviation as a whole also has a terminal condition

[Plastic787]

Returnofaking what you have done has been a massive act of selflessness and I take my hat off to you for doing that with all the difficulty and heartache it must have caused at times. Personally being in the industry myself, in all honesty (and if you have a job with a hedge fund lined up) I would avoid it at all costs.

The odds are now ridiculously and perversely stacked AGAINST guys with experience. It seems that instead of wanting competent people with thousands of hours in the logbook they (airlines) would far prefer to take some guy with 20 hours on a Seneca and an MCC. I've even heard rumours of Virgin starting a zero to hero scheme, if true then that's the death knell for this profession as a whole. A sickening development which is a true recipe for disaster (especially hearing some of the stories about some of the cadets' stick and rudder skills at the low costs).

The long and the short of it is the career is becoming less and less rewarding and all movement in the industry has been all but destroyed by the big flight training schools. The industry is in a desperate state.

[Busbar]

It's a very good question. To answer honestly I would say take the job with the hedge fund. You will make a lot more money and you could probably afford to fly privately if you really wanted to which is a lot more fun and enjoyable.

I never thought I would ever be saying this to anyone, considering I have been very lucky in aviation and do enjoy the job generally. What worries me is where it's all heading. The industry isn't getting better, it's getting a lot worse as the years go by. Where will it all end up? And keep in mind that I work for a UK Major out of LHR on long haul where we see fairly good T's & C's in comparison to a lot of other carriers around.

The daily abuse and lack of respect from airport security, the stupid hours we work, anti-social rosters, constant battling with the company over Pay, Pensions, roster agreements, the list just goes on. Make some good money and enjoy a nice life. I don't think the pay and conditions vs all the hassle in the job makes it worth it anymore.

It's only my opinion and I am sure you will get many others, but the very best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

Cheers :ok:

P.S. The above 2 posters are 100% on the nail. Guys with experience are a dying breed and airlines are not interested.

[PENKO]

You say the industry has changed so much, but you joined easy in 2003 and left in 2008. What change are you talking about? It's not as if you remember flying in the 80's! Sure, things have changed. The easyJet you join now will put you on a random roster for a few years. And the pay will be somewhat less I think, and it will take a bit longer to get that permanent contract.

But once you're in, you're in. It's the same company as before, just a bit bigger and a bit more mature. Leadership is solid. People still leave now and then for BA, or Emirates or Virgin. But most stay.

So what's holding you back? If your life experience has changed the way you view the profession, then fair enough. But only you can make that evaluation. The job is basically the same.

[RAFAT]

Firstly, to echo Plastic787's sentiments, you are to be commended for your selflessness over the last 6 years. :D

Secondly, without hesitation I would say take the financial position, 100%, I have links to the financial sector and I'm afraid aviation just doesn't compete on most levels. However, your desire to fly is still there, so over the next month talk to the operators that interest you and, if they show no interest in you or you have doubts about what's on offer, then bye bye commercial aviation, just do a bit of private flying to scratch your itch.

[Iver]

Take the hedge fund job. Make money and eventually buy a Cirrus and enjoy the sidestick you formerly used on the Airbus. That way you can have your cake and eat it too....


Good luck!

[Shaman]

Take the hedge fund job but keep your rating active by completing an LPC - "you never know"...

[AvEnthusiast]

I would also say take the hedge fund because you have not been working for five or six years and probably drained your savings if you had enough for six years.

I just wanted to add one thing more that above it was said that experienced pilots can't land a job, and I see the new freebies also can't land a job because of the different odds and ends that I'm sure you know of, then I'm wondering who is really get all the jobs in this profession. if you are a newbee, they tell you you don't have experience, blah blah... and then when you are experienced they don't need you either becuase you are too experienced and they need money, then are there really that many guys who are paying to fly?

[cactusbusdrvr]

Wow, it sure depends on which side of the pond you live on. There are regional airlines cold calling anyone with an ATP to get them to go fly for them.

All the airlines are ramping up hiring. At American/US Airways we are anticipating hiring 100 pilots per month for the foreseeable future.

I'm sure working for a hedge fund is lucrative. I also hear it involves long hours and a high rate of burnout. You will have to decide which lifestyle suits you. Since you left Easy for a selfless reason they should be happy to have you back.

[returnofaking]

Gents, i really appreciate all your comments. I've got a meeting with my former employers in a couple of weeks they have been most kind. We're going to pop into a sim and go from there. Depending on what they say i will make the decision but all have you have given me much food for thought, thank you! :)

[Arfur Dent]

Take the hedge fund job which will involve graphs and indicators of where various industries are heading. You won't find many aviation indicators pointing towards a bright and shiny future. You've made your decision to leave for the finest of reasons and you deserve everyone's respect. Well done to your hedge fund friend for offering an escape. There are many pilots enduring their job because they are trapped by mortgage, family etc. but you're already out so good for you. Try not to be a victim of the burnout mentioned before but if you are, go and be a pilot again.
As someone said earlier, keep your licence current, make lots of money, buy a share in a Cirrus. Job done!
Very best of luck.:ok:

[ROSCO328]

This is a simple one. Hedge fund 100 times over. Best of luck to you!:ok:

P.s I'm a current Capt with Ezy and is HAS changed since you left.

[Woody12]

Hi returnofaking,

Take the hedge fund and go in the weekend flying.

I also left aviation industry last year because it was getting insane. Like a previous poster have posted: companies are no longer looking for experienced people but for young fresh newbies. That was also my experience and frustration when i was still flying.

This industry is rotten to the bottom. I have no regrets about my decision. The only thing i m missing is the take off and landing with the jet. That's it. I left the banking industry for aviation in the late 90's. BIG mistake!!

If you want to choose for quality of life: take the job.

Good luck!!

[hifly787]

To leave the profession I wanted since I was a child was very hard
That my friend says it all . Go back to flying the bus. its worth it if you really like flying. Forget the doomsayers . Pilots always crib about everything nowadays. And remember in this economy even a hedge fund can go sideways anytime
Good Luck.

[JB007]

I don't think it'll be what you expect or what you left behind 6 years ago.

After 25 years in this industry (not all flying), I'm generally in a constant state of frustration by the attitudes, bull:mad: and uninspiring "wonder-kids" I'm surrounded by! My experience counts for nothing, nor is it really respected.

I still enjoy flying and wish to continue, but my long-term plan is to leave the airlines. You have an opportunity to start again with a clean sheet, why not have a serious look at other options of professional flying, maybe on a part-time basis that you have control over, whilst enjoying the hedge-fund job?

My advice: avoid the airlines at all cost!

[AtomKraft]

Here's the real answer.

Go black to flying by all means, but avoid doing so in the UK.

If confined to the UK, for some reason, take the money job.

[aa73]

I'd go back to flying. All the money in the world is not worth it if you're not doing what you love. And since you said you've wanted to do it since childhood (me too), you now have a second chance at working a job that you're passionate about.

I've known plenty of folks who have careers making a lot of money and are the most miserable SOBs I have ever talked to. Simple, they are stuck in jobs that may pay very well but it is not their passion.

I may not make what a hedge fund manager makes working here at AA, and I am a strong Unionist who fights the good fight for the best contract possible.... But I am living my dream career and still having a blast flying 737s in my 15th year.

Do it and don't look back! And enjoy the ride.

[Greenlights]

Five years later i'm free to resume living my life.

by entering again this industry, you will not be free anymore.. I mean you will be living for the airline not your life.

Good luck to you, just be aware and come back with big open eyes.

[EMB-145LR]

If flying is all you've ever wanted to do, then I say stick with it. Particularly in view of the fact that your previous employer seem to be doing the decent thing and are having you back in for a chat and a sim check. It's rare to find that sort of commitment from an airline these days, and I must say, I am impressed that easyJet are being so loyal.

Many of those giving their opinion regarding the hedge fund option probably haven't worked in both finance and aviation. I have. Aviation is infinitely less stressful and more fun. I too lived to fly when I was young, but couldn't afford to go integrated and so I saved and did several jobs in finance, marketing and even some bar work. As soon as I had the money to train, I did, and I've never looked back.

This industry is cruel now, but when the flight deck door shuts, it's still the best job in the world, and it's one that I don't have to take home with me at the end of the day.

[redsnail]

returnofaking, good luck with the sim :ok:

[PENKO]

Nice to hear that easy want you back subject to the sim. Now if they also give you your old contract..:ok:

I wonder why those who advocate to leave aviation behind are themselves still flying…

[Greenlights]

I wonder why those who advocate to leave aviation behind are themselves still flying…

Personally glad I left, but I have some friends indeed, they complain and do not quit...
I have some clues to your question as I asked them the same question :

1) it asks courage. Leaving addiction, it is hard. Those people will die unhappy, alone and without kids most of the time. (happiness is not = job)
Flying is the part of addiction, I guess we all know that.

2) they do not know what to do. When you're pilot, without a back up career, you do not know anything else good in this society. You just know to perform ILS and some stick handling. In a another company, you would be good to do photocopies only and make some calls maybe. But compared to an engineer, searchers, pilots are have low knowledges... we are responsible of an a/c but we do not conduct any project from a begining to the end. We do not really manage a team like engineers do for exemple.

3) some tell themselves "I spent huge money, I can not quit". Which is stupid...either you quit or not, the amount of money spent remain the same.
There is a technical word in Economy lesson I followed, but I do not remember. I will edit my message when I find it.
It is the same thing, when you throw away some food and some people tell you that some africans are starving blablabla...
You eat or throw away food, it is economically the same...anyway.

4) Some just stay for the money. Their plan is to buy some apartments and rent them... Flying is not a passion anymore for them, just a job that feeds you.

5) Some try to leave, they will do it as soon as they can and have the opportunity. Personnally, I had been thinking about 2 years before doing the jump. Leaving is not easy, you need to prepare some stuff (another course, saving money in case, wait the end of your contract and so on...).

[BANANASBANANAS]

There is no decision to make.

Take the job with the hedge fund and make lots of money.

If you miss flying, hire a Cessna at the weekend.

[manflexsrsrwy]

It's called , but don't quote me ....opportunity cost in terms of economics

[flash8]

Left flying in my 30's after two years on the 737 back in '06 and didn't regret in until fairly recently, but life is too short, and since leaving I have changed and matured I feel in a way that would have not been possible with flying.

Overall it was probably for the best although my situation was a lot different than yours (I basically stormed out after a volatile build up over a few months) and in the end only you can answer the question of course.

Good luck either way.

PS. I didn't give up PPrune though :)

[PPRuNeUser0204]

You're here on this planet once. Why would you want to spend it working for a hedge fund in an office pouring over facts and figures about whether to invest in a company or not? Booooooring. No wonder it has to pay a decent salary.

Yes it may ooze money but money is not the be all and end all of life. You work to live not the other way round. As I say you're here once, you may as well enjoy what you're doing even if it isn't hedge fund wages.

An EZY Captain earns well over £100k a year. If you can't be happy on that kind of wage you need to have a chat with yourself.

I'm an EZY Captain, been here a long time and enjoy it. I may not be on hedge fund wages but I put food on the table, I heat my house and I pretty much want for nothing. I have a good life.

I guess your glass is either half full or half empty. If you enjoy flying then get back into it. Hope to meet you around the network.

[PENKO]

Greenlights, thanks for your reply and well done to you!:ok: I agree with you but maybe I should rephrase my question.

If the job at the hedgefund is so fantastic as so many say it is, then why don't they apply for something similar? Why don't they 'rent a Cessna' if they are so tired of flying for an airline? What do they know about hedgefunds?

Maybe because it is not so straight forward? Maybe they are here just to moan?

The main worry of our friend is that this industry has changed so much. So let's concentrate on that. So far I can only see a 'problem' with the watered down contract he may be offered. But the job itself is still the same. Once back in the right seat I'd dare say for a guy with his experience the situation is a bit better than when he left!

[PENKO]

I had already amended my message because I do not know your friend's exact situation.
Still, it's not exactly true what you write.
easyJet hires a lot of experienced pilots as well as cadets.
Some very experienced indeed.
easyJet even hires from within the company.

And when has it ever been easy to move company? Seniority lists prevent any job hopping in most airlines. But at least in easyJet you can join the command list within months after signing a permanent contract! I have yet to see evidence that the everyday reality is much worse now than in 2008. For experienced jet drivers with the relevant type rating that is.

And by the way, this whole cadet business is nothing new. Airlines have different needs at different times. BA was recruiting loads of cadets in the past. KLM is ONLY recruiting cadets at the moment. But Emirates is screaming, begging for experienced guys like easyJet pilots. easyJet is now at a mature stage where they can handle larger quantities of cadets, but that might change in a blink of an eye.

[Leg]

Two pages and no one has mentioned the elephant in the room

TYPE RATING!! Long since expired and under EASA rules, whole new
one now required, will easy pay for that, not likely

Echo nearly everyone else, stay away from ANY airline, this
industry is :mad:

(Maybe not Aviation per se, but certainly the Pilot profession is :mad:)

[Blantoon]

TYPE RATING!! Long since expired and under EASA rules, whole new
one now required, will easy pay for that, not likely :eek:

Easy are very good at looking after their own when it comes to training. I expect they will.

[Shaman]

The type rating expires 5 years after the expiry date of the last one so the OP may still have some time left...

[cavortingcheetah]

Am I behind the rapid changes here but, if your IR has expired by more than five years, aren't you apt to be required to rewrite all the ground subjects? The only dispensation normally afforded would be in the case where someone had been actively using the IR privileges on a foreign licence?

[RAFAT]

cavortingcheetah - no.

From CAP804:

"If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge examination and skill test."

[StickAndShudder]

some tell themselves "I spent huge money, I can not quit". Which is stupid...either you quit or not, the amount of money spent remain the same.
There is a technical word in Economy lesson I followed, but I do not remember. I will edit my message when I find it.

The Sunk Cost Fallacy?

Sunk costs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs)

returnofaking - Good luck! :)

[pithblot]

Have you considered aviation outside of airlines? Aeromed, corporate and survey don't use cadets, they value real experience, the flying is great and the pay can be pretty good too. (Well it is down in this neck of the woods).

If you do go with the hedge fund, buy a Chippie.

Good luck, whichever way you go.

[BANANASBANANAS]

The industry you left is very different to the industry now. It still looks very attractive from the outside looking in but the reality, especially for people closer to the beginning rather than the end of their flying careers is very, very different. Human nature is also to look to the past through rose tinted glasses. If you make a decision based on those combined factors I am fairly sure you will subsequently be very disappointed.

It is your call and I genuinely wish you well whichever way you go. But if I had your options I would be putting on my business suit and joining the local flying club.

Good luck, and serious respect for the sacrifices you have already made in your personal life.

[cavortingcheetah]

One weekend not long past at Old Buckenham in Norfolk in flew a Bonanza. This aircraft was in wondrous immaculate condition, a really beautiful and well cared for specimen. The aeroplane had tip tanks, radar and was owned and flown by a man and his woman who obviously really cared for the machine. This aircraft stimulated lust and longing in my breast for with this machine any professional pilot would be happy, either flying IFR on airways, shooting an ILS at 140kts to a 1NM final or just bumbling around the continent with a range to get you down to Rome on one tank fill. The snag is though that you'd need a bob or two to run it. So if I were really you, I'd set my flying sights on an end game like that and go and earn the money to enable you to do what all we pilots really like doing best which is to fly to our maximum professional capabilities, all for fun and damn the masses to perdition.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Contrary to what has been said, the job has changed considerably over the last few years.

Airmanship is now a dirty word and you are expected to adhere unquestioningly to company SOP and doctrine. The management and training dept attitudes are increasingly dogmatic and less pragmatic, and the newer/younger the manager or trainer, the worse it usually is.

Work rate has gone up massively - many pilots now fly to the legal maximums month in, month out, with no let up.

Attitudes to pilots have become bad. Some companies strive to make conditions as bad as they can, and even seem to deliberately break up families simply because they can over issues like basing. Threats and bullying are rife in many companies now, but all off paper so it is impossible to fight back legally.They like to have their spies, too, so you have to watch what you say, even in the cockpit.

Pay is a pittance of what it used to be, so don't expect a decent lifestyle while repaying the costs of the retraining required and paying for your current mortgage and digs in whatever base you end up.

Forget a social life - you'll be working to often and too hard, probably away from home, to have any time with friends or family. Even within the company, socialising is not what it used to be - few short haul airlines have night stops anymore.

Stick to the real money job which gives you so much more benefit and perhaps take up part time flying instruction, but don't go back to the airlines - the accountants and overly desperate wannabes have screwed it right up as a profession.

[Shaman]

Hi Returnofaking,

Don't know if this will affect any decision: Fund management: Will invest for food | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21601500-books-and-music-investment-industry-being-squeezed-will-invest-food)

[bex88]

Bit doom and gloom here.

I work more days than I used to, I work longer hours than I used to and I am away from home more too. The money I earn has gone up but my actual take home has not. On a good day I love it. On a bad day I want to go home, but I have to work and I would rather do this than anything else. If I did not need to work I would go 50% and when down route eat in nice restaurants rather than crew food.

If easy give you the option to return take it. You can always change your mind and it would at least be an experienced pilot in a wave of flight school aces.

Given your selflessness you owe it to yourself to do what you want

[returnofaking]

Chaps i once again thank you all for giving me your unique perspectives.

Yesterday morning i got a call asking if i could i pop into the sim in the afternoon, i did so nervously and left with a tremendous smile on my face. It felt as if i've never been away and i never got the same joy walking into the hedge fund offices in mayfair.

Called my friend to say thanks but no thanks.

I'm coming back! :p

[bex88]

:ok: fantastic news! That's made my day.

Congratulations you very much deserve it

[FANS]

A very wise decision. Hedge funds do not pay ££ for the fun of it, they pay for results and given you've got no experience in them, it's questionable if you'd last long enough to make and keep making the big ££. Sometime more luck than ability as well....

[captplaystation]

I hesitated to offer an opinion, as it is a very personal judgement call.

FWIW I think you made the right move. :D

Sure there has been deterioration in the industry since 2008, but I would hazard a guess that most professions would claim likewise.

Most of the "press" Easy get on here seems positive, and it seems even the spectre of "flexicrew" is being gradually righted.

At the end of the day, after 30 years in the industry & 37 since my 1st flying lesson, I still get out of bed at awful o'clock in good spirit (well once I have cleared the Cobwebs with some black stuff anyhow) & still have a camera in my flight bag every day, which I put to good & frequent use.

I have , over the years, met many, much wealthier than I will ever be, who were, not to put too fine a point on it, miserable bar stewards.
If work is merely "work", no amount of bucks = adequate compensation for the hours of your life wasted to earn them.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Welcome back. I hope you have made the right decision.

What is right for one person is not right for another and I have no doubt you have thought about things long and hard and reached the right decision for you.

[cavortingcheetah]

Hurry up and write to the CAA. I've just put in a request for an assessment regarding an expired ATPL reissue. They tell me it'll take them up to thirty working days to get an answer to my initial queries. As my UK IR expired seven years (thank you RAFAT) ago this coming September, six weeks becomes a significant wait.

[Carbon Brakes 300]

Wish I could achieve the same .Currently out of the bubble for 5 years, trying to getting back in is nearly impossible. All my " friends " have long vanished and yes I am bitter because us older guys with a couple of decades flying under the belt dont even merit replies. Pilots like me can fly and teach groundschool and be multi-functional but P2F is the present and future:ugh:

[PENKO]

Welcome back! We all know the ups and downs of this industry, but the smile on your face says it all.

[flyboy2]

While we all know that the time to stop will come,
I've been blessed with help from mates to keep
my ATP/Instructor's valid.
Nowadays there is little work around in South Africa anyway for us
with grey hair, but some people prefer pilots with grey hair
& their 20+K hours. Cultivate those clients!
Part 91 ( now being changed to something else) is also an option.

[angelorange]

Whatever profession is chosen there are always pitfalls and pluses.

I hope you're return can help EZY mgt towards a more open culture that values experience and old school airmanship that has in large part been lost since you left in 2008 when they pursued the cadet/ flexi and now MPL only recruitment.

Contrary to what has been reported very few experienced pilots have been recruited over the past 6 years from ex military/turboprop/GA/non 500h on type Airbus communities.

All the best!

[RVR800]

Well done you and

Well done Easyjet :D