MERGED: Tyabb Incident 27-04-14

[forever flying]

Rumours in of something happening at Tyabb, reports of one fatality and small child in critical condition. Anyone know more? Very sad news

[I spy]

One dead in crash at Tyabb....Breaking News from Tyabb, south of Melbourne - a light plane has come down. One person dead. Details on Sky News in a moment @skynewsaust : AhronYoung (http://inagist.com/all/460324748837134336/)

Just mentioned on Ch 7 news.

[Fantome]

A small plane has crashed south of Melbourne, killing a man and injuring a young child.
Police and paramedics were called around 5.25pm on Sunday on reports of an aircraft incident on Seaview Road in Tyabb, not far from a local airport.
One man died at the scene while a little girl has been airlifted to hospital in a critical condition, a police spokeswoman said.
There are unconfirmed reports the light plane either clipped or struck a house when it came down in the area.
A woman who answered the phone at Peninsula Aero Club, which operates out of Tyabb Airport, said she was not aware of what had happened and the club was still trying to get more details.
Firefighters have been called in to help, but the crash did not spark a fire, a CFA spokeswoman said.

Read more: One dead in Tyabb plane crash (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-dead-in-tyabb-plane-crash-20140427-zr0fo.html#ixzz304aLcrRJ)

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

A small plane has crashed south of Melbourne, killing a man and injuring a young child.

Police and paramedics were called around 5.25pm on Sunday on reports of an aircraft incident on Seaview Road in Tyabb, not far from a local airport.

One man died at the scene while a little girl has been airlifted to hospital in a critical condition, a police spokeswoman said.

There are unconfirmed reports the light plane either clipped or struck a house when it came down in the area.

A woman who answered the phone at Peninsula Aero Club, which operates out of Tyabb Airport, said she was not aware of what had happened and the club was still trying to get more details.

Firefighters have been called in to help, but the crash did not spark a fire, a CFA spokeswoman said.

More to come...


Very sad news indeed. . . :(

[VH-XXX]

I heard it was a trike.

[Old Akro]

I heard it was a trike.

Yes, it was.

[mcgrath50]

A woman who answered the phone at Peninsula Aero Club, which operates out of Tyabb Airport, said she was not aware of what had happened and the club was still trying to get more details.

Great reporting.

[Xray Tango]

Yep, another RA incident. Becoming quiet the norm.

[BlatantLiar]

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/man-dead-young-girl-critical-after-plane-crash-on-the-mornington-peninsula/story-fni0fit3-1226897521918)

Looks like a microlight going off the photos.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Definitely a trike. Father/daughter.

[Ultralights]

Yep, another RA incident. Becoming quiet the norm.
I didnt think trikes came under the RAus?

[VH-XXX]

Absolutely they do Ultralights, although they can also be HGFA registered as you are eluding to.

[Wally Mk2]

Just awful, ya gotta feel for the rest of the family, there will be a lot of soul searching am sure whether it was a clever idea to take aloft in one of those things a 5 year old child.
Poor little girl may be scared in more ways than one for the rest of her life as she had no say in it relying totally on her father.
I guess he meant well taking along a small child in what i would consider a high risk activity, personal thoughts that's all.



Wmk2

[Sunfish]

I assume the "Close Tyabb airstrip" crowd will start baying shortly.

[VH-XXX]

They will indeed Mr Sunfish, indeed.... There have been a few mishaps there of late which are all bad publicity.

As for a 5 yr old passenger, a coroner has already arced up about taking up children in light aircraft, particularly homebuilt ones and has already made recommendations to CASA to cease such activity if I recall correctly. I guess it comes down to the passenger being an informed participant and anyone under the age of X is not such a person.

Trikes used to fly a lot slower and you could put them down almost anywhere when things went quiet, but they seem to be getting faster and faster, pushing over 75 knots these days and there is all but zero protection for pilot and passenger.

[Howard Hughes]

Yep, another RA incident. Becoming quiet the norm.
What an informed comment! :rolleyes:

As the pilot in this was a friend of a friend, my first thought was how fleeting life can be, better make the most of it!

RIP fellow aviator and I hope your young daughter is OK.

[ZAZ]

Sad to see pilot died and 5 YO Girl taken to hospital badly injured.


Ultralight plane crash at Tyabb, south of Melbourne, claims life of man while 5yo in critical condition - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-27/ultralight-plane-crashes-in-melbourne/5414126)

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I assume the "Close Tyabb airstrip" crowd will start baying shortly.

As a PAC member, I'm wondering where the benefit from letting these types of things fly around a busy circuit comes from? No radio (or not used), training questionable and when something happens, more publicity the club doesn't need. I can only see downside for a club which has a number of local battles to fight.

UTR

[VH-XXX]

UTR - you have a very loose argument there to not allow "ultralights" at Tyabb...

What about the 182 that flipped on landing not long back? (Refer to ATSB)
The 172? that ran off the runway about 3 weeks ago into a ditch?
The 152 that landed on a Jabiru taking off?

Isn't is the noisy warbirds that the locals complain the most about?

No radios - they aren't a requirement. Perhaps the operator could make them mandatory - PPR.
Questionable training - based on what?


I'm not suggesting you are wrong, I'm just balancing the argument.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

XXX - understand what you're saying but you've got to draw some distinctions between the media and publicity an event like this gets and the other references you make.

Whist the ongoing battles at Tyabb seem to sit in a bit of a status quo with the protagonists generally ignored by the wider community, a significant event like a death might just get open the window for another push by the anti-airport brigade.

In none of the events you've listed was there a serious casualty, let alone a fatality.

If people choose to fly trikes and other ultra lights with no crash absorbing qualities then I don't think it should be at Tyabb where, given that as soon as it goes wrong, it's likely to go seriously wrong, a serious incident is assured.

As for the operator mandating radios - they should - with everything from ultralights to POLAIR to some high performance twins. For training - I base my comments on watching them operate at numerous strips with disregard to all. A sweeping generalisation I know, but observations are all that I have.

[VH-XXX]

I base my comments on watching them operate at numerous strips with disregard to all.

My advice, take action. Get the rego numbers and make some phone calls. It will make a difference and may save a life, or more.

Tyabb practically has Darren Barnfield living on-site, so you have your own club covered. Whilst he may be the RAA technical manager, he certainly holds clout within the organisation and can make the appropriate noises. Same with Mick Poole, he's frequently at Tyabb and can take appropriate action and I know he will follow up such reports and ensure that they are followed through.

Don't be afraid to alert poor behaviour on the radio, like those stupid trike maximum rate climbing intersection departures that they often do. (note that this has nothing to do with this incident afaik) There's nothing more embarrasing than being told off via the VHF - it will have lasting behavioural effects. We recently had a couple of trikes visit my airport and ask to put their aircraft in our hangar as it was gusty; I obliged and the pilot taxiied over, right over and inside the hangar, then shut down. I didn't hesitate to advise the pilot that it is not appropriate etiquette to taxi into the hangar and he replied that it's what they do at their airport. That one conversation may one day save some serious damage to a person or aircraft.

If people choose to fly trikes and other ultra lights with no crash absorbing qualities then I don't think it should be at Tyabb where, given that as soon as it goes wrong, it's likely to go seriously wrong, a serious incident is assured.

Understand your point, but thankfully it wasn't a 250 knot Mustang ploughing into a house.

[Sunfish]

The first and only air crash I have seen involved a trike and since that day I have never seen one operated to standards I remotely consider responsible.

They seem to attract people with the jet ski mentality - pure exhibitionism. Slow. low and noisy, endlessly turning over population centres wanting to be watched. They always flout the 500 ft and 1000ft rules.

Ban the bloody things.

[VH-XXX]

They always flout the 500 ft and 1000ft rules.

Ban the bloody things.

Calm your farm Sunny.

Take my advice, pick up your phone and make calls when you see it happening. If they are as low as you say they are, their rego's should be easily visible. It only takes a phone followed by a caution to put the wind up them, so to speak.

[Sunfish]

registration invisible and the infractions always happen on weekends outside business hours. Powered parachutes do the same thing. Williamstown is a very busy crossroads and one day a Helo, Tiger moth or a seaplane is going to collect one of these idiots.

[VH-XXX]

Sunny, you should write to RAA-Aus and HGFA with your concerns and the message will be passed on via the monthly magazines. If you say nothing, nothing will happen. Willy is a class G VFR lane and they are entitled to be there.


News has just reported that this aircraft was fitted with a camera (unknown if operating at the time), it had fuel on board and was running a Rotax 912 80 hp engine, pretty much as bullet-proof as you will get, so it will be interesting to find out why it stopped.

[Oakape]

We recently had a couple of trikes visit my airport and ask to put their aircraft in our hangar as it was gusty; I obliged and the pilot taxiied over, right over and inside the hangar, then shut down. I didn't hesitate to advise the pilot that it is not appropriate etiquette to taxi into the hangar and he replied that it's what they do at their airport.

Not only is it bad etiquette, I think it might also be illegal. CAO 20.9 5.1.4 a & e.

[VH-XXX]

Touché.

.....

[Sunfish]

While I am on the limit of my aeronautical knowledge here, it appears that weight shifting control cannot cope with zero or negative G and neither can autogyros. This appears to be the source of their vulnerability....

...apart from their cheapness appealing to idiots and losers.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I asked myself, would I risk the life of my little girl...NO BLOODY WAY!
Why would this poor fellow be any different. Something has happened outside his control...imagine what was going through his mind in those last seconds...bet it wasn't about his own safety.

Regardless if his actions get the Monday expert treatment.

[VH-XXX]

Cheapness? A good trike pushes the $80k mark and are very well engineered. Idiots and losers? That's a bit harsh there Sunfish given what has just happened. If I'm not mistaken your home-built aircraft runs the same engine type and probably cost less. The majority of trikes are also factory built versus your garage built bug smasher built by someone with limited aeronautical knowledge by admission ...

[Sunfish]

XXX, the trikes I have seen being trailed around this country are a disgrace by marine, let alone aviation standards. Same with the autogyros and parachutes. I've seen.

They seem to attract the "thrill seeker" element with which I am quite familiar. These are folk who ignore the century of aeronautical experience, bought with so many lives, in favour of the latest fad.

Autogyros cannot cope with negative G. Neither can single surface aerofoils as far as I know.

Furthermore, i stand by my comment that I have never seen these used responsibly as in getting from A to B. They always appear above built up areas and places like beaches, where they proceed to show off - until they crash.

I will let the comment on my build go except to say its designed to be built by ham handed, butter fingered idiots like me and produce a (relatively) safe result, and in any case I try to adhere to Boeing practices and am a far worse critic of my own efforts than anyone else could ever be.

Get rid of the barn stormers in trikes and paragliders.

[Wally Mk2]

I think it's accepted to some degree that these light weight flying machines can attract the more 'cowboy' element probably due the very nature that they are 'considered' cheaper & easier to fly/operate, that's the expectation of a lot of these operators I Imagine.
Trouble is the pilot in this sad event by all accounts was most likely responsible judging by him being well known in certain circles but what's disturbing is the young child here being involved as I mentioned in an earlier post, taking her may very well be the biggest issue here. I'd like to think that if nothing else comes out of the tragic event that there be an age limit for pax just like there would be on motorcycles as pillions, both have little to no protection in an accident sequence.
I've been in trike once some years ago, scared the crap out of me thinking sheez even a slow speed event at ground level & I could be toast!
Obviously all personal choice but the child? There's the utter sadness here, hope she pulls thru quickly but she is now left without a father:sad:.

Wmk2

[1a sound asleep]

The pilot of this ultralight had his licence for only months. You can draw your own training conclusions about this. Tyabb has gone down the wrong road with ultralights and it will be the beginning of the end. I will give the airfield 5 years.

[VH-XXX]

1asoundasleep, Months you say... Since last August actually, so about 8 months. What about the fact that they were also a PPL holder?

Not disagreeing with you, just balancing a one-sided argument.

[jamsquat]

Tyabb(PAC) does not conduct any weight shift type training. In fact the only ultralights they have on line are a gazelle and skycatcher. These are both fully enclosed 3 axis control types. Obviously the trike training was conducted elsewhere. In fact I would estimate that ultralight flights of the weight shift variety would make up less than 1% of all movements at Tyabb. Hardly going down hill! With new hangars going up all the time I predict a bright future for Western Port Airfield!

[Old Akro]

Tyabb has gone down the wrong road with ultralights and it will be the beginning of the end. I will give the airfield 5 years.

I don't disagree about ultralights, but for different reasons. I think Tyabb is secure as an airport

An ultralight is just an aircraft. Many have similar weight, power & performance as the J3 cub that I fly. The real problem is the lack of discipline of the sector in Australia.

We have CASA which doesn't understand GA and is strangling it with regulation. CASA seems to be unable to have the flexibility to deal with both private pilots and airlines. The state car registration bodies can do it. AMSA can do it. Overseas aviation regulators (eg the UK CAA) can do it. But CASA has abrogated its responsibility in this area. While GA suffers from too much regulation, the ultralight sector doesn't have enough. They were cast free by CASA and are taking full advantage. Too many ultralight pilots think that normal conventions don't apply to them.

CASA has created this situation that airport's like Tyabb we effectively have different users operating to different rules using the same airport - not the airport.

I'd suggest that CASA's decision to split general aviation according to an arbitrary weight limit means that airports training organisations like Tyabb are forced to mix both traffic to remain viable. You can see this replicated in most country airports. To a degree Tyabb has more incidents because it simply has more aircraft.

But, Tyabb is secure as an airport. Its zoned as an airport and if nothing else, pre-existing use rights will protect it as such. In the last couple of years 8 new hangars have been erected, with another 2 about to commence. A fourth aviation maintenance business has opened and the airport is now probably the biggest employment generator in Tyabb. Clearly, the local council and the Victorian dept of planning support its use as an airport.

An airport operator isn't in the business of re-qualifying pilots. That's CASA's job. I'd suggest that a string of ultalight accidents that have a common thread of pilot skill deficiency will put pressure on the licencing authorities, not the airport.

Real estate prices are the biggest killer of airports. I can't think of a single airport which has been closed because of safety concerns (that's CASA's territory), but there is a pretty big list of those closed because the land simply became too valuable and the owners decided to "cash out". Tyabb is surrounded by land zoned "Port Industrial" in waiting for the Hastings port development. The local council doesn't get to rezone this land.

[VH-XXX]

Too many ultralight pilots think that normal conventions don't apply to them.

CASA has created this situation that airport's like Tyabb we effectively have different users operating to different rules using the same airport - not the airport.


This has been a bugbear of mine for a long time. RA-Aus operate under a set of exemptions from the CAO's, but they are not exempt for all of them, merely they are exempt from holding a "licence," thus they hold a certificate.

What appears to be happening right now is that after the RAA copped a caining from CASA after audit recent failures, the RAA has stepped up a notch with their technical and operations personnel and actually started to enforce the CAO's. Every month in the RAA we magazine we are seeing a range of "new" regulations that now apply to RAA aircraft. In fact they are not "new," they have been there forever, but nobody felt that they applied and they were never communicated effectively to the members and not actively enforced.

Some examples I can think of include:

- Instrument 8 checks
- Transponder AD, the old RAD43/47
- Airservices Noise Certificates
- TSO'ed instruments
- Enforcing no CTA in homebuilts
- Enforcing no flying in military airspace

Now RAA have an online course for maintenance privelages which used to be given automatically to an owner and there's also talk of 100 hourlies.

The result of these perceived changes I believe has caused literally droves of members to leave RAA of late and or sell their aircraft and from what I can tell, there will be more. RAA's Temora gathering over Easter had 100-110 aircraft there on the Easter Saturday. Prior years have seen in excess of 500 on the same day.

Watch this space, it's not over yet.

I think you'll find that we will start to see a much greater compliance in terms of maintenance and flying and those that won't comply, will look elsewhere for their jetski fix.

[poteroo]

Just because pilots are leaving RAAus, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean they have ceased flying. Similarly, aircraft previously registered under RAAus, but with lapsed currency, have not necessarily stopped flying. It appears that many aircraft and pilots have chosen to fly without currency or registration, ie, as happens with motor vehicles.

RAAus Operations have limited capacity to surveil their members and aircraft. CASA contributes around $100,000 pa toward the entire administration of this sector. It just can't be done! It would really cost CASA 10x this to do the job themselves - and that may not be so far off!

Pinging a few of the cowboys would have a salutary effect on the remainder, and it would allow the 98% responsible pilots to get on and enjoy their hobby. Only CASA can achieve this - unless they delegate real powers to the RAAO's. It wouldn't be popular in some quarters, but most would welcome it.

happy days,

[Jabawocky]

- unless they delegate real powers to the RAAO's.

And the required funding to go with it. CASA dribble out funding and expect a fire hose of results.

Won't work.

[Andy_RR]

And the required funding to go with it. CASA dribble out funding and expect a fire hose of results.

Won't work.

As Milton Friedman says, every government program fails because of insufficient funding, but none fail because they were bad ideas in the first place...


Pinging a few of the cowboys would have a salutary effect on the remainder, and it would allow the 98% responsible pilots to get on and enjoy their hobby.


Don't the 98% have a responsibility to themselves to educate the 2% as best they can so they can all get on and (continue to) enjoy their hobby? Leaving things for the government to fix up more often than not results in "sub-optimal" outcomes...

[Ultralights]

Don't the 98% have a responsibility to themselves to educate the 2% as best they can

i think some threads on here have proved that sometimes, the 2% can never be educated, some simply refuse to listen.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Now RAA have an online course for maintenance privelages which used to be given automatically to an owner and there's also talk of 100 hourlies.

The result of these perceived changes I believe has caused literally droves of members to leave RAA of late and or sell their aircraft and from what I can tell, there will be more. RAA's Temora gathering over Easter had 100-110 aircraft there on the Easter Saturday. Prior years have seen in excess of 500 on the same day.

Wonderful. If these people don't want to face the fact that if they fcuk it up, an RA aircraft will kill them just as fast as a VH registered one will, then I am glad they aren't in the same airspace as me.

To unbalance the argument, XXX, you cannot honestly compare the GA training standard to RA. Honestly being the key word here. This crap about being able to get a flight review and automatically upgrade to a GA Recreational license for anything up to 1500kg without even a BAK under the proposed Part 61 regs? Any instructor that lets that fly so to speak without putting the candidate through the wringer (read as, does more than just three circuits) should have their license pulled.

If they choose to continue to fly illegally, they should be persued with the same vigour as an unlicensed driver on the road.

Quote from an RA instructor who asked when they conduct a review what should be said if they notice the registration has lapsed?
"Suggest they get it renewed.
What if next time you see them they still haven't complied?
"Strongly Suggest they get it renewed.
And on the third occasion?
"Extremely Strongly Suggest they get it renewed.:hmm:

For the record, I'm not against all RA, just the ones who treat it as an easy way around the rules. Unfortunate that few often taint it for the many.

[Oracle1]

I have been subjected to the Captains Wringer. Glad I did it made me a much better pilot. Lots of gaps in my education when I arrived on the doorstep with an open RAA license. Totally agree its not to the same standard!

[VH-XXX]

To unbalance the argument, XXX, you cannot honestly compare the GA training standard to RA. Honestly being the key word here. This crap about being able to get a flight review and automatically upgrade to a GA Recreational license for anything up to 1500kg without even a BAK under the proposed Part 61 regs? Any instructor that lets that fly so to speak without putting the candidate through the wringer (read as, does more than just three circuits) should have their license pulled.

Wait till September 2014 and we will see what happens! It will be interesting but it will be a while before the horror stories start coming through.

I think the stick and rudder part will be ok but CTA won't be as straight forward, but that's by endorsement anyway so in the end it will probably be quite a seamless transition.

[Ultralights]

Lots of gaps in my education when I arrived on the doorstep with an open RAA license. Totally agree its not to the same standard!

obviously you went to the wrong school, 2 Raaus schools i know, train Raaus certificate pilots using the same GA syllabus and BAK for a GA PPL.

[spinex]

Agree 100% Ultralights, I wandered into an RAA school with a PPL and learnt rather more than I expected. And that's not to sell short my initial school and ex military instructor.