Melbourne Airport: 737 cargo hold fire poss due to Lithium-ion battery

[Skillsy]

Early reports of a fire on board a 737 whilst still on stand at Melbourne Airport this evening. All Pax appear to have been evacuated without injury and the airport fire services (ARFF) contained the fire (or smoke) to the cargo hold. Both Metro (MFB) and Country (CFA) fire services were requested but turned back en-route.

* Now reported that no passengers were evacuated.

[Skillsy]

Unconfirmed reports now place the incident on a Fiji B738.

[framer]

If this does turn out to be a fire from a battery in a PED or in a battery that has been packed as freight, is that fact logged anywhere at a central location?
Ie is there a single point for gathering data on battery fires globally?
There have been changes to the rules regarding carrying batteries and at the same time there are a lot more battery powered devices than there was even two years ago. As an industry I'm not sure we are on top of this from a risk management perspective.
Would it be a wise move to create a website where links to incident reports involving battery fires are logged so that an accurate picture can be developed?
Framer

[nitpicker330]

It's now 0930 some 10 hours after the story broke in here.

Officially described as "a minor fire" ........one that required RFF MFB and CFA to be called!!

To my mind there is no such thing as a minor fire on board an Aircraft ever. :ugh:

[Ollie Onion]

I was parked next door to this when it happened, it was a Fiji Airways aircraft (737). 5 Fire Appliances turned up, as far as I could see there were NO pax on board at the time. The fireman accessed the rear hold and after quite a few minutes removed a black hard shell suit case that had quite a bit of smoke coming from it. The suitcase was placed on the tarmac away from the aircraft and sprayed with water for around 15 minutes before the smoke started to subside. Our pushback was delayed around 40 minutes waiting for the all clear from the fire authorities. Whilst this was happening PA's were being made in the terminal to try and identify the owner of the suitcase.

If this is yet Another case of a lithium ion battery going up then it just goes to show how lethal they are and perhaps the TOTAL lack of knowledge that the traveling public has about them.

[Una Due Tfc]

15 minutes under the hose from a fire tender before it stopped smoking??? Well those halon bottles in your hold wouldn't have been much good at cruise would they?

There have been a few examples of bags being dropped and laptop batteries being damaged and going up. As we know the only way to control a lithium battery fire is to totally immerse it in water.

Lithium battery devices in carry on only, palettes of them by land or sea only. Is it going to take another Valujet for the authorities to get their fingers out? UPS and Asiana have already lost a 744F each to these batteries

[Clear_Prop]

Una Due Tfc: It's extremely unlikely the RFF guys were using Halon to put an apron fire out, so the comparison is tenuous. Halon use is very restricted these days. It's performance at putting out fires is phenomenal, but its also a greenhouse gas so it only gets used in highly critical situations.

To control a "smoking" suitcase on the apron the fire guys may even have decided not to waste their foam on it -, water alone will achieve the same result it just takes longer. It's not a "critical" situation when its on the apron away from the aircraft.

I used to do some RFF work when I was learning to fly. During a training exercise we ran timed tests to compare the time taken to put out a typical fully developed fire in a light aircraft. With water only it took about 2.5 mins, with foam it took less than 30 seconds. Obviously we didn't test Halon, but I am reliably informed the same test by a competent crew using Halon would be extinguished in less than ten seconds.

[Jetstream67]

I'm Not sure putting lithium batteries in water is a great idea .....

[Basil]

I'm Not sure putting lithium batteries in water is a great idea .....
AFAIK that is the current recommendation.

[Una Due Tfc]

Clear Prop

The firefighters don't use Halon, but the bottles in the cargo hold are filled with halon, my point was the fire would have at best been delayed briefly by Halon. Foam or water would put the flames out initially, but the fire will just re-light after you stop.

Immersing Lithium Ion batteries in water is the only way of controlling the situation, you can't stop the runaway but you will control the temperature and prevent nearby objects from catching fire

[avantgardeaclue]

I am in the arff and i teach flight crew fire and smoke training. Lithium battery fires are dealt with thus:

1: extinguish any flame with BCF (halon)
2: cool with water (or any other non flammable liquid)
3: do not move item unless benefits outways the risk.
4: again, cool with water, lots of it.
5: monitor, check for transferred heat.

hope that helps

[silverhawk]

The fire suppression system in the hold is a one shot, 'fire and forget' system. Initially delivers a long burst to extinguish and suppress the fire. Then it automatically fires metered bursts periodically to maintain suppression. Certified for a minimum of 195 minutes to cater for our 180 minutes EDTO.

[haughtney1]

Maybe its due to a lack of understanding? or a deliberate media blackout? Having witnessed a 747 freighter miss my house by about 500 feet and then subsequently crash and burn, I can attest Lithium batteries scare the living :mad: out of me.

[CAndyPOB]

nitpicker330 said: Officially described as "a minor fire" ........one that required RFF MFB and CFA to be called!!

From a safety point of view, nearby RFF services are automatically called for various reasons including:

1. It is easier and quicker to get them moving, and turn them back if they are not needed, than have to call them when it has got out of hand.

2. If the airport RFF services are being used for an aircraft, the, 'civilian,' services will provide emergency cover for the airport infrastructure, and other emergencies. Again, they can be turned back if not needed.

It is not only about dealing with the emergency presented, but about, 'what if,' something else happens.

[framer]

Maybe its due to a lack of understanding? or a deliberate media blackout?
I think that was in response to my post saying that I can't find one reference to the incident in the media which was deleted. This incident is potentially very important to our industry and how we react to one of the biggest threats to safety we've seen. If there is a concerted effort to prevent media coverage of the event it is quite disturbing. Has anyone emailed Pane Talking? I think I'll do that now.
Can anyone point me towards any media coverage of the incident?

[givemewings]

avant-garde, perhaps the airlines Down under should look at containment systems... the lot I work for teach the same procedure except we follow up by using a containment device to hold the item in case of further thermal runaway.

Certain airports in Asis now pull the crew aside to repack if there are any lighters or batteries in the hold luggage; hope the same is being done for pax. I think this should be made standard world wide!

[mickjoebill]

Can anyone point me towards any media coverage of the incident?
There is no media coverage, it's an open and shut case:8

Any confirmation that it was lithium batteries?

Remember that cheap nicads or nicads that have been improperly re-celled have caused fires through their ability to deliver enormous number of amps when shorted.

Due to the baggage restrictions on Lithium batts, nicads are making a comeback with media crews.
The luggage was described as a "black hard shell suitcase", this description does not exclude "pelican" brand style flight cases commonly used by film and TV crews.

[500N]

Maybe no media coverage because it occurred out of sight of most people
and the airport doesn't announce incidents to the media ?

In any case, why the need to have the media report it ?

All they will do is blow it out of all proportion with a sensationalist headline
about "Passengers saved", "Airport plane fire" et al and if they can weave
into the story "school missed by brave pilot" all will be normal !

[mickjoebill]

In any case, why the need to have the media report it ?

If an incident is not reported the list of reasons can include a news blackout due to police or other government agency operations or heavy handed censorship by private company to protect its vested interests or the interests of others.

A burning bag pulled off a bus would make local news at least.

Note that news editors will surely know of the story by now but would seek confirmation from an official source, especially given last weeks rush to report the "hijacking".

Official sources may be hard to find on a bank holiday weekend.

[No Fly Zone]

Thought: I'm no expert, but I suspect that Halon is Much more effective in a confined space (hold) than in open air, simple because it dissipates so quickly. In theory, using Halon in open air could suppress fire so briefly that no significant cooling occurs, only to have it re-ignite as soon as the Halon dissipates.

Question: If packing PEDs (specifically modern laptop) with Li-Ion batteries in hold baggage, is there any benefit in removing the battery from the device and wrapping it in insulating material to prevent any possibility of contacts shorting? Of course, those things belong in hand luggage where they can be accessed if there is a problem, but not everyone follows the :mad:ing rules or best practices.

Comments on both are most welcome. Thanks.

[Andrewgr2]

I have an Ipad and an HTC mobile phone. Neither has a removeable battery. I suspect both are lithium technology, but I don't know. In general, I understand there is more concern about loose batteries than connected ones for obvious reasons - bare terminals. However, security never comments on the spare lithium batteries I carry for my camera.

[LeeJoyce]

Last I heard was it was an rc helicopter battery

But I'm not at work for a while so I can't ask around

I wasn't there, but a mate was on, apparently smoke was reported, then a mayday call made

If it were an Aussie airline it'd be front page news for weeks

[tdracer]

Halon basically works by displacing the oxygen that is feeding the fire - and won't work when the material that is burning can provide its own oxidizer. Li-O batteries fall into that category, along with things like ammonium perchlorate (used to make solid rocket propellant), gunpowder, and oxygen generation canisters. Once ignited, they will continue to burn until the fuel is exhausted....
In the case of a small, single battery (e.g. laptop), Halon can keep the fire from spreading while the original source burns itself out.
Much was made in the ValuJet crash that the cargo hold did not have a fire suppression system - totally missing the point that it wouldn't have mattered - once the oxygen generators started burning, that airplane was doomed.

[India Four Two]

Last I heard was it was an rc helicopter battery

I have an RC helicopter. The batteries and charger come with very comprehensive instructions and warnings. A lot of energy packed in a small space, but with a pigtail connector rather than exposed terminals.

[nitpicker330]

I still find it amazing that the media didn't jump,all over this story like a cheap suit.

Smoking bags being pulled from the hold, Mayday calls, RFF spraying water for 15 mins etc

Surely this is not "normal" for Mel Airport and is as good a story as "Qantas 767 is death defying missed approach......"

One more thing, the 737 doesn't have cargo fire detection or suppression does it?

[JIMbrs]

If this is a case of RC Heli, it would fit in with a few factors, including the hardcase. As some of you may know LiPo batteries are the main type used to get that kind of power for weight/size.


The main issue with LiPos, is battery damage, and not so much shorting of connectors, due to the types of connectors used. Battery damage is quite easy due to them being soft shell batteries. Damage can be present from small crashes which may cause no obvious signs of damage at the time, but bloating etc can lead to spontaneous type combustion later in the batteries life. The type of batteries I use are usually 2 x 6 cell 22.2v 5000-6000mAh in series.


LiPos are to be charged only while you are present (I'd prefer on concrete away from anything flammable, and kept in fireproof lipo bags.. and yes, submersing a damage battery in water is a safe way to go.


There are plenty of videos online of LiPo explosions, from damaged.. deliberately or not.. batteries. I hope this adds to someone's understanding and/or appreciation of them.

[onetrack]

Andrewgr2 has raised a good point. I wonder how many pax are 100% familiar with the fine details of the listed DG's? - such as NO spare batteries of ANY kind, in checked baggage? - and that each battery needs to be individually protected to prevent short circuits?

Dangerous Goods | Qantas (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/dangerous-goods/global/en)

I have never been questioned by any security people, with specific regard to batteries, in any of my luggage presented.

I was quite surprised when a young bloke on security specifically questioned me on aerosols in my carry-on luggage, at BNE just last week.
That's the first time I have ever been asked with regard to aerosols, and it should be mandatory to question every passenger as regards the more dangerous items, that are often thoughtlessly included in luggage - such as aerosols and batteries.

I've commenced using a small plastic parts box with dividers and a hinged lid with a catch, to carry items such as spare batteries, and other electronic necessities. I've found it works well.

https://www.masters.com.au/product/902246791/fischer-storage-box-12-compartmemt

[500N]

One Track

I agree with you, I don't think I have ever been asked apart from the general question re DG goods (and I have flown with the lower two quite often so am aware of what is on the list)

I have also been asked specifically about Aerosols before, both before an international flight to the US and a internal flight in Aus.

Those plastic hinged boxes for batteries are by far the best available :ok:

[LeeJoyce]

this is pretty common, im sure the check in agents rarely ask though


"All spare batteries, including lithium metal or lithium ion cells or batteries, for such consumer electronic devices must be carried in carry-on baggage only. These batteries must be individually protected to prevent short circuits."



thinking i shouldn't leave my quadcopter and gear sitting in the car from now on..

[framer]

Does security check for batteries when they x ray the checked bags?

[jolihokistix]

Sometimes cases can have a hard time in baggage handling, or just sitting around in high temps on concrete or on tarmac.

I wonder if the hard shell black case in this instance was labelled, "Fragile", "Contains Inflammable Batteries", (or "Flammable" for those that do not understand the meaning of inflammable), "Do Not Drop", "Do Not Expose to Direct Sunlight", etc.?

[RAT 5]

Does anyone have a personal experience of this? I will put an electric golf trolley in a suitcase, therefore in the hold. I plan to take the lithium battery in my hand luggage, as per the carriers instructions about Li-batteries. Has anyone had a problem with this?

[1DC]

I consider myself a seasoned and experienced traveller but a couple of months ago i put my laptop in my checked baggage because i wasn't going to use it and couldn't be bothered to carry it in my hand baggage, get it out at security etc.. It never occurred to me to take the battery out, but it will now if i ever do it again....

[p.j.m]

I wonder how many pax are 100% familiar with the fine details of the listed DG's? - such as NO spare batteries of ANY kind, in checked baggage? - and that each battery needs to be individually protected to prevent short circuits?

Dangerous Goods | Qantas (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/dangerous-goods/global/en)

not quite - from your link

Spare lithium ion batteries with a Watt-hour rating exceeding 100Wh but not exceeding 160Wh for consumer electronic devices. Maximum of two spare batteries may be carried in carry-on baggage only.

So below 100Wh is no problem anywhere. Checked in or carry on.

[david1300]

Very recently flew Singapore Airlines to SIN then BKK ex BNE. We're specifically asked about batteries in checked bags at BNE and SIN, but not at BKK

[Solar]

I have been told at check in at Belfast that as my carry on exceeded their weight limit that my laptop had to go in the check in baggage, batteries not mentioned. This is a company work laptop and is somewhat heavier than the normal.
Result of this was that the airline is now on the company no fly list.

[lomapaseo]

Did any investigation determine that a battery of any type was involved?

[silverhawk]

One more thing, the 737 doesn't have cargo fire detection or suppression does it?

Nit picker, some do some don't, depends on your operation.

I think all have detection. Suppression is a customer option which obviously costs money. Draw your own conclusions.

[flynerd]

1DC
i put my laptop in my checked baggage because i wasn't going to use it and couldn't be bothered to carry it in my hand baggage, get it out at security etc.. It never occurred to me to take the battery out, but it will now if i ever do it again....

It would be a good idea to also wrap some insulation (duct tape) around the removed battery terminals too.

[mickjoebill]

A media crew working for a US cable network had a lucky escape when the battery on their Octocopter caught fire last month at Dubai airport.

The smoking case was pulled out of the baggage bin on the ground by baggage handlers, before it was loaded onto the connecting flight.

Some of the octocopter/drone crews are fairly new to the TV business.

[givemewings]

When I worked on ground we were told to specifically ask about certain items, including but not limited to "aerosols, Zippo lighters and batteries"

I've noticed that the 'two questions' seem to have disappeared from the check-in routine. Not sure if this is because I'm usually on staff tickets (bit worrying, some are dumb as doornails and wouldn't have a clue/care about Li-Io batteries) or because there's no longer a requirement to verbalise the questions due to online/kiosk check-in and/or signage at the airport?

[greencoconut]

Undeclared drone batteries sparked plane fire at Melbourne airport: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/undeclared-batteries-sparked-plane-fire-at-melbourne-airport3a/5728574)

[Oakape]

"The passenger who had checked in the case was located and was asked whether any batteries were in it, to which the passenger responded there were none,"

"The ARFF and Australian Federal Police inspected all four of the bags checked in by the passenger and found 19 batteries intact and [an] additional 6-8 batteries that had been destroyed by fire."

And there is perhaps the biggest problem! Some people have no concept of the danger & will always do what they want to do, even if they are aware that it is not allowed. I don't know if they think they know better than the experts, or if they just feel it is worth the risk of putting everyone's life in jeopardy in order to achieve their objective. It is the same with mobile phones. People don't power them off (I know the rules have recently changed in some countries) & I've even had a lady sitting beside me making calls while in the air. Denied it of course when the flight attendant questioned her.

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

[Ian W]

And there is perhaps the biggest problem! Some people have no concept of the danger & will always do what they want to do, even if they are aware that it is not allowed. I don't know if they think they know better than the experts, or if they just feel it is worth the risk of putting everyone's life in jeopardy in order to achieve their objective. It is the same with mobile phones. People don't power them off (I know the rules have recently changed in some countries) & I've even had a lady sitting beside me making calls while in the air. Denied it of course when the flight attendant questioned her.

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

The anecdotes you gave are typical. But for a moment look at it from the pax point of view. Taxi out at US hub, no problem using tablets, phones (in airplane mode)... land on in Europe and they must be off and stowed. Why? Well its the regulators _not_ the safety aspects.

A related issue - I was sent a spare rechargeable Lithium Ion battery for a headset. The battery was about the size of the top joint of my little finger. It came in a box 9 inches deep and around 3 feet square filled with clever packaging and plastered with all the regulatory warnings.

This type of over reaction and illogical regulatory disagreements bring the entire safety culture into disrepute. The pax think its just officialdom being awkward because they like being awkward and imposing 'meaningless rules'. In many the pax are right there are lots of 'rules' that are pure CYA and have no technical merit So just like crying wolf too many times, these regulations are just not believed and that includes the real threats - how does an average SLF know the difference between rules there for no real reason (often the majority) and a rule that is really required?

Regulators need to get their act together and have verified quantified risks to justify each 'safety' rule and have them consistent worldwide.

[Oakape]

All of that is completely true & it needs to be addressed. The differences between the regulators range from stupid to confusing & tend to be based more on 'butt covering' than concrete evidence.

However, SLF & those sending freight are generally not qualified to make a decision as to what is safe & what is not. Nor are they qualified to analyse the various regs & decide which are sensible & which aren't. That being the case, they should be following ALL the rules & going through appropriate channels if they feel something needs to be changed.

[nicolai]

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

Take them over to the RFF training facility and put them in the burning aircraft simulator, then turn the flames on for a few seconds :E

More realistically, more awareness of the dangers might help, but could also spread a general perception of "aviation is unsafe", which isn't going to help anyone in aviation keep their jobs. Difficult problem.

[brak]

I think in this particular case the culprit, as a "licensed drone operator" who was transporting about 20 large-capacity (drone) lithium-ion batteries, should have been (and likely was) quite aware of all related dangers. This was not an innocent mistake by an ill-informed person, but rather a "willful ignorance" (for the lack of better term).
It's a mix of "I know better" and "it will never happen to me", along with being a self-centered jerk who does not care for lives of others. Can't combat that except with vigilance and excessive punishment. Since this person lied about content of his luggage - I hope there is a criminal case against him.

[daikilo]

I am told that the problem is more serious.

For many a month I would close my PC, put it in the bag provided, and it theoretically would go into controlled shut-down. Some of us noticed that it didn't always. This is a software glitch.

Remaining under power, and generating heat, it seems that the bags may catch fire before the PC, but once they have, you have a battery runaway. Unlikely to be an issue on a short-range flight, but not so clear for a long-range.

[toaddy]

I used to be a rep for a lipo brand, commonly used in electric RC helicopters and drones. Those battery cells are wrapped in a membrane that's very easy to puncture if poked or slid into another object. Think heavy duty potato chip bag material. I've seen many go up in flames when a helicopter crashes or some component shifts and vibrates a hole in a battery cell. Almost always when a cell erupts, each neighboring cell will sequentially erupt as well. Most of the 5 and 6 cell lipos would hiss smoke and spew sparks and flames for at least a minute or so before burning out.

I understand the lithium ion round cells are physically protected better and less subject to unintentional damage but I never worked with them.

I would feel comfortable flying with scattered lipos in devices on airplanes, or even in cargo, but a container with dozens or hundreds of the fragile cells in one container does make me uneasy. I carry them in my car trunk and am constantly checking that no tools, volt meter probes, or any hard object can slide or shift into a cell. We really are at the mercy of the person doing the packaging. One slip up and a large number of cells could be affected.

Interestingly the bluefin sonar thing that searched for mh370 is powered with lipos. From what I read the high pressure from extreme depth is not a problem for lipo cells.

[airman1900]

framer

There is a FAA pdf at:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/aircarrier_info/media/battery_incident_chart.pdf

BATTERIES & BATTERY - POWERED DEVICES
Aviation Cargo and Passenger Baggage Incidents Involving
Smoke, Fire, Extreme Heat or Explosion

As of May 19, 2014, 144 air incidents involving batteries carried as cargo or baggage that have been recorded since March 20, 1991

[porch monkey]

He should have known better. He is now an ex employee, (Tech Crew!), of another airline.

[mickjoebill]

The robust design of professional camera batteries are a major feature but drone batteries are sold on their power to weight ratio.
The lighter the better.
Then they are customised by the operator.
Such customisation is not regulated.

Amazing that security checks ensure liquid bombs don't make it on board when home modified batteries dont warrant an investigation...

[Una Due Tfc]

It's unlikely the 737 in question had fire suppression in the hold. If these things had gone off in cruise........

[porch monkey]

I think you'll find the opposite is true UDT.

[Dufo]

Just thinking..

These days it takes only a few RC li-po batteries with time-triggered piercing device (which will pass any security screening) to bring an aeroplane down.
Who needs explosives..

And no, I don't argue when they take my mini cocacola bottle at security :E

Wake up legislators, please.

[FlightDetent]

This type of over reaction and illogical regulatory disagreements bring the entire safety culture into disrepute. The pax think its just officialdom being awkward because they like being awkward and imposing 'meaningless rules'. In many the pax are right there are lots of 'rules' that are pure CYA and have no technical merit So just like crying wolf too many times, these regulations are just not believed and that includes the real threats ...

Regulators need to get their act together and have verified quantified risks to justify each 'safety' rule and have them consistent worldwide.

:D If only I could have this engraved in stone. To slap some sense into quite a few boxed minds.

[crippen]

THAI bans large power banks Published: 13 Sep 2014 at 13.21 | Viewed: 4,327 | Comments: 2Online news: AviationWriter: Online Reporters Thai Airways International (THAI) has banned power banks for mobile...

Please credit and share this article with others using this link:THAI bans large power banks | Bangkok Post: business (http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/aviation/432039/thai-bans-large-power-banks).

A passenger can bring with him on board power banks, or spare batteries with rechargers, with capacities of less than 20,000 milliamp-hours (mAh) or 100 watt-hours (Wh).
For power banks with capacities of 20,000-32,000 mAh (100-160 Wh), he can take up to two packs in a carry-on bag. A power bank of more than 32,000 mAh is prohibited even in carry-on baggage

[Miles]

Interesting porch,

I have heard it alleged on another forum dedicated to Uav folks that the person in question was a fellow professional pilot (a Boeing FO no less, with several thousand hours).
Regardless, as a certified Uav operator, if these facts are true (knowingly declaring no lipo in checked baggage) he deserves to be stripped of his certificate.
We are in the early days of commercial uav operations and CASA Have been very gracious in their positive encouragement. For the sake off all Uav operators and more importantly the general public, all Uav operations should conducted diligently and within the regulations.

[Ian W]

We are in the early days of commercial uav operations and CASA Have been very gracious in their positive encouragement. For the sake off all Uav operators and more importantly the general public, all Uav operations should conducted diligently and within the regulations.

Having worked with some standards bodies, this is the major fear of professional UAS operators that someone will cause a high profile incident and all the work of trying to get commercial operations approved will be thrown away. For example, it only takes a paparazzi with a qadrotor to have a mid-air with a manned aircraft say a helicopter carrying a VIP/socialite, and the door will be firmly shut to all but 'state owned' aircraft.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I'm pretty sure Li-ion batteries were class 9, and subject to limited quantities either that or CAO. CASA should throw the book at this moron.

[harrryw]

Hope he has good insurance for the civil damages claim too.

[gleaf]

Luck and lack of negative experience is no proof of safety.
Talk to a chemist about the energy density equivalent between a
LI-on battery and an explosive device.
Next, the explosive device is designed to work right once.
The owners of PC's etc with portable battery power now expect the same energy density to be how safe for how long and how many operation cycles?


Li-on.. and other higher energy density technologies... more energy density is never safer. All of the chance factors remain the same once you close the package at the factory.

[framer]

Airline safety is built on having more than one layer of defence to prevent high consequence events occurring.
If the flying pilot forgets to put the gear down, the pilot monitoring is there as a back up, if they both forget, the GPWS calls " too low gear" .
There are literally thousands of examples of this 'multi-layered defence' approach to aviation safety, the ATSB investigators are experts in this grand ethos of safety management. It is a good one, it works.
So what is wrong with the one and only safety action detailed in this report?

From the main body of the report;
The passenger stated during check-in that there were no batteries in the checked bags,
The passenger who had checked in the case was located and was asked whether any batteries were in it, to which the passenger responded there were none.

The one and only 'Safety Action';
Safety Action As a result of this occurrence, Fiji Airways has issued an Airport Operations Standing Order: Lithium Metal & Lithium Ion Cells Batteries advising check-in staff to ask every passenger whether their baggage contains lithium batteries and to check batteries are carried in accordance with regulations. Any passenger carrying undeclared lithium batteries that are discovered prior to departure will be offloaded and refused carriage.

They may as well have added;
Any passenger carrying undeclared lithium batteries that are discovered subsequent to departure will most likely be burnt to death and therefore not likely to require further carriage.

If the 'Safety Action ' above had been implemented three months prior to this incident it would have had no effect of the outcome because the passenger simply lied. Passengers will do this, it is human nature to favour a short term gain over the remote risk of a larger long term loss. It is Human Factors 101 and ATSB understand the inadequacy in expecting otherwise.

Whether or not there are large numbers of lithium batteries in the hold of a commercial airliner relies on
A) The potentially tired, undertrained, under resourced, minimum wage earning, shift worker remembering to ask the pax if there are batteries in the checked luggage, and
B) the passenger speaking the same language as the check in staff, and
C) the passenger telling the truth.

The above is fine for one layer of defence, but there needs to be a robust second layer.
We will lose more aircraft to battery fires and then stronger systems will be implemented.

[Snakecharma]

I would have thought with checked bag screening bags that have batteries in them would be reasonably easy to identify.

We pull laptops out and screen them separately as hand luggage because the batteries and hard drives are too dense to get a decent image on the scanners, surely a bunch of rectangular black objects on the X-ray would be easy to see?

I have never seen the images produced by the checked bag screening machines, so perhaps I am over stretching on the capability of the devices.

[Led Zep]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bag_check.png

[Prince Niccolo M]

he lied


he should have known the rules and would be hard put to say otherwise


he continued to lie


it was not a small breach


he knowingly chose to put everyone at risk through reckless behaviour


send the pr_ck to gaol and make sure everyone hears about it - you violate, you pay!

[Cirronimbus]

It might be difficult to prosecute the passenger for such a breach when all that happened at check in was a question and answer session where the passenger simply lied. What can the check in person do about it?

CASA might be the regulator that makes the rules but the airline is the one who has to try to enforce the rules. At present, passengers only need to lie and then plead ignorance to get away with any breach that is eventually detected.

Perhaps getting passengers to sign a declaration that they understand the dangerous goods questions that SHOULD be asked at check in, and then declare that they are not carrying Lithium batteries in their luggage, might make them think twice about trying to get away with it?

At least with a signed declaration, the airlines and insurance companies might have a better chance of suing for damages? CASA would also have a leg to stand on when it comes to penalising the idiots. Taking a few idiots to court and getting publicity about successful outcomes might help get the message across?

[Australopithecus]

That would be inline with Australia Post regulations (for example). When you express post something you must sign the declaration on the package and provide photo ID which is recorded.

But then again airlines don't want any human interaction with passengers checking in: not even an ID check let alone signing a DG declaration.

I saw an ad today for a line of garden equipment with a 40v, 4 amp/hour lithium ion battery pack. That's the kind of thing that we can look forward to unwittingly carrying, complete with exposed terminals.

Earlier this year I purchased two brick sized lithium polymer batteries which arrived in an overnight bag from Melbourne, no declaration, no insulation on the terminals, unpadded. When I asked the seller he said he shipped ten a day that way. Well, he doesn't anymore. :mad:

[framer]

Even if a jet went down locally and was big news some passengers would still lie about it because it makes their day a fraction easier.
I think any gains in safety are only going to be made if we assume that the odd passenger will lie or forget and we have scanning to pick up those instances.

[Toruk Macto]

Is there any difference in relation to legally defending something than was a known DG ie on NOTOC and something not known to airline ie not on NOTOC . Maybe explains why some companies removing these batteries from Notoc's

[OzSync]

Seriously the shipping of LiIon and LiPo batteries has to be one of the biggest threats to aviation in Australia.

How many used phones/computers/iPods/GoPros and spare/replacement batteries are being sent on almost every flight?

I've always wondered how someone who isn't dangerous goods qualified can sign a dangerous goods declaration on a satchel.

As mentioned previously, youtube LiPo explosions if in doubt.

FFS there are ebay AU listings with LITHIUM and EXPRESS POST in the title.....