Would you fly Air France?

[Espada III]

Lots of talk on here about poor training on AF. This has lead some people to say that in the light of AF449 and other incidents, they would not fly with AF.

So, if you found some good value flights would you fly Air France? The route is medium hall across the Mediterranean.

[KBPsen]

You better stay home in bed. You never know what might happen if you get up.

[Shack37]

Would you fly Air France?

YES

[VC10man]

I would fly Air France if there wasn't an alternative airline. However I would rather use BA or Virgin or quite a few others.

Air France seems to have too many bits of bad luck for my liking, like the Concorde crash, the A340 in Canada and the A330 in the South Atlantic.

I still can't understand why the senior pilot was in bed a few hours after takeoff, or why the pilot flying pulled the stick back when the plane was stalling. But of course I'm not a pilot so how could I know.

[dont overfil]

No. For different reasons.

I have twice flown to the USA with Air France/Delta. Seat allocation was a shambles, cronic overbooking making the check in like a scrum and half the staff at CDG were on strike. Oh yes, one of the aircraft, an AF 767 was a complete shed inside with broken trim and collapsed seat cushions.

The connection between ATL & MCO was a Delta L1011. It was all cattle class. The centre overhead bins had been removed presumably to save weight. It was like sitting in a cathedral! The air conditioning pipes were dangling from the ceiling.

This was back in 2000 & 2001 but never again with AF or through CDG. If you remember a couple of years later part of the roof of the terminal at CDG collapsed.

Edited to add:- In case you think I am too fussy I have flown to the USA with KLM/NW, Lufthansa, BA, Eire Lingus and Virgin with no issues.

[Dash8driver1312]

I'd fly with other carriers going similar routes if I can do so. There are a large amount of incidents in recent years pointing towards automation complacency above and beyond the average and a culture that does not learn sufficiently rapidly.

And I think you'll find that you mean AF447.

[Heathrow Harry]

pity is KLM seem to be going the same way - a recent AMS - LHR rtn was awfull.......... both ways

[Phileas Fogg]

Two experiences with Frog Air, AMS/CDG in an A321 ... Not a long enough journey to say good, bad or otherwise and CDG/SIN in a B777-300 ... 10 across ecenomy seating ... no thank you very much.

Whatever the route would suggest trying Swiss just for starters

[Hotel Tango]

Oh yes, one of the aircraft, an AF 767 was a complete shed inside with broken trim and collapsed seat cushions

AFR operated their last B767 services circa 2002. If it was in that period, the likelyhood of them spending money on refurbishing a/c they were replacing was unlikely. In the interest of balanced comparison I have flown on tatty Lufthansa and British Airways B747s just before their retirement.

[superq7]

If you want to take a chance fly Air France IMO

[englishkev]

Flown with them numerous times. Never had any problems.

[Hartington]

I've been turning over the idea of visiting Madagascar for some years. Choice seems to be Air Madagascar, Air France or via Nairobi with a long connection on to Kenya (however I fly from London to Nairobi non-stop).

I've been tempted to try "Madair". Any flying within Madagascar would have to be Madair so why not go the whole hog and use them from Paris. But then I have to go via Paris!

[crewmeal]

I've used AF to fly BHX - CDG - DAM and back. Usually on a full A320. Service was good, food was good with no delays. However CDG airport is a nasty place. Delays being 'processed' at various gates is not a pleasant experience with very rude security personal. Mind you that's the same at most airports these days.

[Mr Mac]

There nickname of Air Chance has not been earned without reason, and dates back for many years (in my own case back to early 70,s and a memorable 707 flight). Would not use them, or CDG, unless they were the last flight out of some place, where there was to be a bloody regime change !.

[bedsted]

IMO I have to agree with the negative posts. AF and CDG are:mad: awful.

[Shack37]

Up until my last two AF/CDG trips in November 2013 I would have agreed with the "NO" voters here. I did BIO - CDG - ABZ and return. I was pleasantly surprised at the improvement all round especially the transport between terminals, in my case G to E. Going Shengen to non Shengen was no problem. Flights, crew and service all acceptable.
I've had worse on various other major airlines.

[edi_local]

My only Experience of AF was JNB-CDG on the (at the time only a few weeks old) A380. I was in economy, but it was a damn good flight. The upper rear cabin was almost empty mind you so perhaps I was just lucky. My mother flew them to JFK not long ago and while she had no major complaints, she preferred other airlines.

We both agreed that Transiting CDG was awful. Horrible, cold, soulless airport, filled with miserable staff and overpriced everything. One to avoid in the future. :mad:

[bedsted]

Yes CDG, I do not have a good word about it. Driving in to return a rental is chaos, the check-in area is a nightmare as are the mostly miserable and unhelpful staff.
On arrival, from immigration until driving well out from the airport perimeter roads the same thing.
On a recent AF transatlantic, premium economy, we were airborne for well over an hour in smooth conditions before we were offered anything.

[tb10er]

A good airline spoilt by a lousy airport (CDG) if you have to transfer

[Espada III]

Strange - I asked the question because of concerns over the ability of AF to get into scrapes that other airlines seem to avoid. Yet most people are more concerned over the facilities at CDG.

My experience of CDG when transferring with AF previously is pretty good - clean, smart, light, comfortable, with short security queues and does not feel like Heathrow or Manchester - a shopping centre with runway attached.

[redsnail]

I have a mate in Air France and to say the culture in Air France is "interesting" is to be polite.. Now, prior to the last accident, some members of the pilot body appeared to be rather arrogant with respect to safety, compliance and standardisation.

However, they copped a huge reality check with the Atlantic crash. My mate (flight crew) has been pleasantly surprised with the changes that are going on. The airline deserves commendation for addressing the issues.

[Rwy in Sight]

They are controlled by a very tough regulating body - the French CAA which is supervised by the EASA so I think the Atlantic crash was a bit of act of God. They did not have anything serious since then.

So yes I would fly with them any time the fare is right and there was no alternate on the alliance I have top status.

[ExXB]

Well, compared to LHR - CDG is a paradise. But that isn't saying much. Now ORY, well that's worse.

AF is as safe as any other EU based airline. If it wasn't they wouldn't be flying. If this wasn't a pilots forum, I might note that recent incidents (A340 - YYZ, A330 mid atlantic) appeared to be more related to human factors. But seeing that it is :eek: , I'll keep my mouth shut. :ouch:

They have had a few unusual incidents, including the above. I think their first A340 "premature hull retirement" was an aircraft catching fire while it was being towed empty to or from a hangar.

I have flown them many times, usually via CDG. I'd fly them again if the price was right but I've noted they almost always are more expensive than their partner KLM (connecting flights via their hubs)

[PAXboy]

I have always thought that, the safest time for a carrier is in the ten years following a major prang.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

After AF447, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole for safety reasons (unless the only choice was Air India).

..and yes, I have had an ASI failure at night IMC - I set power & attitude, & sorted out the instruments/avionics in slow-time. I also worked as an instructor for an airline training school in the dim and distant past - where we still taught proper handling skills and sensible airmanship, but that's getting rarer these days.

I take a look at the airlines where good crew have saved the day by exhibiting good airmanship, and fly with them. BA, Qantas, Air Canada, etc.

I'd take a good look at where airlines get their maintenance done these days as well - Southwest is one to avoid for this reason in my book.

[clunckdriver]

Would I fly on Air France?NO, NEVER!

[llondel]

I'd put them pretty low on my list of choices, there would have to be a really good reason to choose them. Certainly lower than all the other Western airlines I might encounter.

[GROUNDHOG]

I wouldn't have a problem flying AF though the last flights with them I was unimpressed with the service and comfort. If there was another way I would probably prefer it!

[Andy_S]

Well, compared to LHR - CDG is a paradise.

This is the same LHR that came in 10th in the Skytrax 2014 Worlds Best Airports listings. While CDG was, ermmm, nowhere.......

AF is as safe as any other EU based airline.

Their track record says otherwise.....

I might note that recent incidents (A340 - YYZ, A330 mid atlantic) appeared to be more related to human factors.

Surely the "human factors" are indivisible from the airline?

[kenparry]

so I think the Atlantic crash was a bit of act of God

You may well be on your own with that analysis. Many people who have studied the event consider it to have been pilot incompetence.

[Espada III]

Well I hope I survive not to regret it....(I think that's what I mean!)

Booked flights for the family but KLM going out via Schipol and AF back via CDG with only 1hr 10min and 45min connections on the respective sectors. So no time to digest the 'delights' of either airport.

Interestingly, apart from one dodgy booking website, the KLM website was the cheapest. Whilst I could reserve seats for free outbound, I could not even pay to reserve seats for the return trip (not that I would want to pay).

[5711N0205W]

Working for a company with a head office in Paris I travel AF/KLM quite frequently, now having enough FF status CDG is a breeze, priority security, boarding and passport control with Parafe automated border makes it easy.

I have no problems with the product, prefer the premium cabins and service to the very overpriced BA offering to be honest.

Safety wise, I have no specific concerns with the product, getting up is a risk but so then is staying in bed.

[tb10er]

This may help you decide whether to fly with them

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140429/airport-strike-france-pilots:ugh:

[Helol]

Resurrecting this thread. Anyone's opinion changed in the last 3 years since this thread started?

Yes I am thinking about flying with AFR, long haul...

[Basil]

I would fly Air France if there wasn't an alternative airline. However I would rather use BA or Virgin or quite a few others.

Air France seems to have too many bits of bad luck for my liking, like the Concorde crash, the A340 in Canada and the A330 in the South Atlantic.

I still can't understand why the senior pilot was in bed a few hours after takeoff, or why the pilot flying pulled the stick back when the plane was stalling. But of course I'm not a pilot so how could I know.
I'm a pilot and I don't know.
Didn't understand or was trained to understand attitude, angle of attack, rate of descent; hadn't been given real pilot training (such as you are given in the mil - sorry) etc. etc.

[wowzz]

Pointless necro-post.

[Harry Wayfarers]

They are controlled by a very tough regulating body

That's a laugh ... I worked for a Luxembourg operator and the Luxembourg CAA has sub-contracted their Flight Operations Inspectorate to Bureau Veritas of France.

Along would come Mr LeS.... arriving late morning off a train from Lille, once the niceties were out of the way it would be time for the directors to take him for lunch (have you ever seen how much red wine a French man can get thru during a lunchtime?), thereafter he would be so drunk we would simply fly thru our inspections before putting him back on a train to Lille :)

[KayPam]

Strange - I asked the question because of concerns over the ability of AF to get into scrapes that other airlines seem to avoid. Yet most people are more concerned over the facilities at CDG.

My experience of CDG when transferring with AF previously is pretty good - clean, smart, light, comfortable, with short security queues and does not feel like Heathrow or Manchester - a shopping centre with runway attached.

That's because even in some of the worst airlines out there, you're still safer than in your car.
People are able to think rationally sometimes.

Seriously, twice zero is still zero.

[bedsted]

I have used AF CDG-ATL several times over the last 5 years.
Excellent cabin service (business) and departures fairly punctual. Ground staff poor at ATL (Delta). CDG usual nightmare
Relatively cheap and good for the carriage of animals transatlantic.

[Hotel Tango]

Some posters are getting confused. The question is in relation to their safety record not their service. On my side I think that they will have learnt their lessons and made some changes. I would be willing to fly with them.

[bedsted]

Some posters are getting confused. The question is in relation to their safety record not their service. On my side I think that they will have learnt their lessons and made some changes. I would be willing to fly with them.

Confused? No if you are referring to me.
The OP's question was " Would you fly Air France"? I gave my reasons for using them.

[Hotel Tango]

Oops, sorry if I upset you bedsted. I was just pointing out that the thread is clearly in respect of safety and not service.

[andycba]

I avoid unless no other reasonable alternative

[Helol]

Thanks chaps. As my trip down to SA is an additional one I am fitting in before another scheduled trip to SA, then price is more of a consideration on this occasion. Their prices to JNB from LHR are really reasonable. Priority for me is safety, and a decent window seat which I can look out of occasionally! Food, legroom (I'm a short arse) and IFE etc are not a priority for me. KLM is an alternative.

[bedsted]

Oops, sorry if I upset you bedsted. I was just pointing out that the thread is clearly in respect of safety and not service.

Not upset and I appreciate your post.
In my post, I did consider all aspects I could including safety apart from being privy to a jump-seat ride. I think AF has learned much (as they needed to) since 447.

[clunckdriver]

No way would I climb aboard any of their aircraft,{ about 30,000 hours total time I would guess} still flying for leisure and for lots of money. One only has to watch their behavior and listen to their R/T babble to understand why.

[Hartington]

I have a form of personal risk assessment I apply. It looks at alternatives. For instance, in somewhere like Indonesia, while the safety of air travel may be less than perfect, the alternatives are probably even less safe (with the exception of their few train routes) so I would fly. But, let's face it, getting from the airport into town is going to involve some road travel.

I look at Air France and I see an airline whose safety culture appears (and note I am not being absolute) to have some failings. I would therefore consider alternatives. However if, like driving into town in Indonesia, there isn't a sensible alternative (and that is by no means about price) I would fly Air France.

[tow1709]

I have only ever flown with AF once. It was in the early nineties from LHR to CDG. I seem to remember it was an A310 – is this likely on that route?

Anyway, it was a very stormy summer afternoon. Thunder, lightning, torrential rain and CB all round, yet my flight went on time despite most other airlines showing delays from T2.

It came as no great surprise several years later, when travelling cross channel from Dover to Calais on a very stormy day, that Sea France were still operating when both P&O and Stena (which were still separate companies at the time) had cancelled all their crossings.

The ship went first to the western end of the harbour to work up speed and take a good run-up at the eastern harbour entrance. It was the one and only time I had seen other passengers shut up and listen to the safety briefing on a cross channel ferry.

[Impress to inflate]

The company I work for had to send me from Australia to Norway a few years ago (1 year after A330 incident), they booked me from Singapore to CDG then onto COP with AF, I REFUSED, the company wasn't happy but I stood firm. A few days later they came back with cheaper flights...........Cathy Pacific. Had a GREAT flight with CX, up-graded to Business from Cairns to HK then had good seats in Econ to Paris.

[Rush2112]

I have only made one round trip with them - August 2015 while on holiday in France, my former boss decided he wanted a team getogther in Hartford. Had I been coming from home, it would have been SQ via Frankfurt (and I did consider driving there to get the onward flight to NY but the missus vetoed that!), so it was choice of AF or some US airline.

In the end I decided AF to Boston.

I felt that the crew, though reasonably good on service, had a rather relaxed attitude to seatbelts, bags on the floor, wandering around the cabin during lumpy conditions, whereas SQ crews are much more strict in those sort of areas so it did make me wonder about the whole safety culture. I go to France a lot and they do seem more laissez faire about personal safety, seeming to believe in the individual making his/her own decisions.

[Malchester]

Only flown one trip with AF, many years ago 1996 in fact - Manchester - Paris - Nairobi and back. All flights were good. Was allocated seat upstairs in the bubble (all economy up there at the time) in B747 on flight from Paris to Nairobi but found it very claustrophobic so changed my seat for the return and was downstairs - much better.

[noflynomore]

I can only imagine that some people allow themselves to be excessively influenced by statistics that have such low sample rates as to be utterly meaningless. You might think pilots would know better.
Or is it just mindless Frog-bashing? I wonder...

[Mr Mac]

noflynomore
Do not think it is "frog bashing" as you say, just too many incidents over the years compared with other carriers in Europe who are their direct competitors for some people I guess (myself included).

[DaveReidUK]

If you start a thread called "Would you fly Air France?" then it shouldn't really come as a surprise that it produces a string of anecdotes, mostly relating bad experiences. :O

[testpanel]

Incident: France A343 at Bogota on Mar 11th 2017, abnormally long takeoff run (http://avherald.com/h?article=4a81da6e&opt=0)

So, (beyond other things, like pilots demanding their own toilet in the -350:yuk:), no thanks!

[Mark in CA]

Call me naive, but I fly Air France regularly to the US East and West Coasts. The only "incident" I can report was some serious delays on multiple legs of one return trip to the West Coast. I was in no hurry, however, and after penalty payments received I was in the black by about 1000 euro. Other than that trip, things have gone relatively smoothly and comfortably. Recent trip trip to IAD was flawless both ways.

[Rush2112]

I can only imagine that some people allow themselves to be excessively influenced by statistics that have such low sample rates as to be utterly meaningless. You might think pilots would know better.
Or is it just mindless Frog-bashing? I wonder...

Certainly not from me, I have a house there and it's the retirement plan. Or was, before the Brexit vote...

[LeFrenchKiwi]

I'm from the bottom half of the world and we have AF as a staff travel partner, used them LHR-CDG a couple of months ago. No major issues at the LHR end. Flew them in 2010 TLS-CDG and same, no major issue. Service in flight was better on the more recent flight.
As for flight safety there are plenty of carriers to be concerned about that do fly to the EU, AF isn't one of them