Who issued pilots licences prior to the CAA?

[Contacttower]

Originally licences were issued by the Royal Aero Club I believe, but between them and the CAA which organisation, Governmental of some sort I imagine, was responsible for flight crew licencing in the UK?

Did the CAA take it on as soon as it was brought into existence or is that responsibility it was given later?

[Mark 1]

The Royal Aero Club issued aviator's certificates between 1910 and 1914 which permitted the holders to take part in their competitions and aerial demonstrations. They held no particular legal privileges as I understand.

After WW1 at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 the International Air Convention was signed by many of the participants. Article 12 stated:
" The Commanding Officer, pilots, engineers and other
members of the operating crew of every aircraft shall, in
accordance with the conditions laid down in Annex E,
be provided with certificates of competency and licences
issued or rendered valid by the State whose nationality
the aircraft possesses."

This task was given to the Air Ministry in the UK which was formed initially to set up the Royal Air Force, and later to the ARB and the CAA.

[welkyboy]

My licence was issued by Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation(MTCA)in 1962, this became Ministry of Aviation(MOA) (an extinct non flying bird!!!!) then Board of Trade, and then CAA as far as I can remember.

[chevvron]

Between BOT and CAA it was DTI (Department of Trade and Industry). My original PPL was issued in '71, so if I find it I'll let you know!

[John Hill]

Do you still have to get a radio operators certificate from HM's Post Office?

[l.garey]

My PPL (1958) was issued by the Board of Trade Civil Aviation Division.

[albatross]

In various books I have, I vaguely recall, seen some pilot licences pre and during WW1 issued by the FAI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fédération_Aéronautique_Internationale

[26er]

My PPL dated 23/03/54 was issued "by authority of the Minister of Civil Aviation". My Commercial license dated 14/03/69 says " by authority of the Board of Trade" though confusingly the night rating of the same date was issued " by authority of the Minister of Aviation".

[aw ditor]

All done from Shell Mex House!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

chevvron. While you are looking for yours, mine are of almost identical vintage.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/SPPL_zps9d1ebdb0.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/PPL_zps50f4bcbd.jpg

They felt like a licence in those days.

[Wander00]

PPL was a lovely hard backed booklet with a weave cloth finish. Very smart

[alisoncc]

Have strong memories of some involvement of the ARB - Air Registration Board in the whole licensing process. Or were they just involved in approving the airies themselves?

Swapped my air force 1250 for these: Note: change from a Dept to a Division so we all got new books. And then they got a new logo, so new books once again.

http://users.on.net/~alisoncc/caa1.jpg

then this:
http://users.on.net/~alisoncc/caa2.jpg

And then these:
http://users.on.net/~alisoncc/caa3.jpg

I held a Burger Lugvaart Lisensie, so there. :\

[BEagle]

Although my original 1968-issued PPL stated 'Ministry of Aviation' on the cover:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/PPL_1_zps31cbdc8d.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/PPL_1_zps31cbdc8d.jpg.html)

inside, there was a note stating that any Ministry of Aviation reference should be read as if it had been 'Board of Trade' - although the licence itself states 'Board of Trade':

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/PPL_2_zps871ccf58.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/PPL_2_zps871ccf58.jpg.html)

I assume that they must have had a warehouse full of old 'MoA' PPL covers somewhere, which they used up before the 'BoT' ones arrived?

My later (much!) civil licences seemed to get scruffier as their seniority increased:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/PPL_3_zps82d8855e.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/PPL_3_zps82d8855e.jpg.html)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/BCPL_1_zps8cac3d33.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/BCPL_1_zps8cac3d33.jpg.html)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/ATPL_1_zps874f5575.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/ATPL_1_zps874f5575.jpg.html)

The gold lettering on the UK R/BCPL and JAR-FCL ATPL is of particularly poor quality. Is the EASA licence holder quality any better?

[FL575]

This is a 1938 Aviator’s Certificate, issued by The Royal Aero Club in 1938.

It is quite small, some 4¼inches by 3 inches (11cm x 7.5cm), with a leather cover.

On the second page the holder’s name and date of issue, together with the certificate number have been written in by hand. The handwriting is the most exquisite example of ‘copper-plate’ hand written work.

Looking at the date, 1938, I often wonder if Mr Taylor became an RAF pilot in WW2

AviatorsCertificate4.jpg Photo by essjaypr9 | Photobucket (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2)

AviatorsCertificate3.jpg Photo by essjaypr9 | Photobucket (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0)

AviatorsCertificate1.jpg Photo by essjaypr9 | Photobucket (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1)

AviatorsCertificate1.jpg Photo by essjaypr9 | Photobucket (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1)

[FL575]

Sorry that I seem unable this time to show the photographs 'normally'!

[Jhieminga]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/AviatorsCertificate4.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate4.jpg.html)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/AviatorsCertificate3.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate3.jpg.html)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/AviatorsCertificate1.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate1.jpg.html)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/AviatorsCertificate2.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/AviatorsCertificate2.jpg.html)

The trick is to copy what is in the 'IMG' box at top right on the Photobucket page.

[GQ2]

....if he did, I bet that 'A.H. 'tash didn't last long...! :)

[GQ2]

.......actually, I'm not too sure about the actual validity of the FAI Aviators Certificate - it wasn't the PPL itself from what I can see. Perhaps for use overseas..? (I recall, in the 1970's having to obtain an 'RAC International Driving Licence' to drive abroad...!).
A have a full trail of a deceased friends aviation documents, both flying, PPL and Ground Engineer. Hope this helps;-

Air Ministry Ground Engineers Licence, July 1936. CA Form 9.

FAI Aviators Certificate, granted August 1939.

Air Ministry PPL CA Form 64, August, 1939.

Ministry Of Civil Aviation Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence CA Form 9. July, 1946.

UK Ministry Of Aviation Student Pilots Licence CA Form 602. May, 1961 (As a returnee.)

Ministry Of Aviation, Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence, CA Form 612. December 1964.

Civil Aviation Authority, Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence, CA Form 1703. August 1977 - 1987.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

BEagle. You missed out that bloody awful Licence "for life" plastic concertina thing we had to make the one off payment for in the late '70s. Which reminds me, I still have mine and never got the cardboard one.

[oftenflylo]

Yes-= the wavy concertina thing
ACCEPTANCE not agreed by European countries because 'it did not have a BROWN cover in accordance with ICAO rules.
Aaah the fun of showing it in Spain.
CAA red-faced - oh surely not.

[Wander00]

O2 - jut had the reverse driving licence problem. Living in France and with a French nasty paper driving licence, I wanted to drive during a visit to South Africa, which requires a driving licence in English. So had to get an International Driving Permit, but from a friendly "motoring association" but from the Prefecture. Not sure of using a French Government website, I applied in person, 160km round trip, and took nearly a fortnight to arrive, but lasts for the validity of my ordinary driver's licence.

[Fareastdriver]

CAA licences are easy. Try getting one of these.
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/img006_zps6f4a2079.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/img006_zps6f4a2079.jpg.html)
I have masked out the details of my ID but I have left my birth date and the date of issue clear.
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/img007_zps8553d887.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/img007_zps8553d887.jpg.html)
As you can see there is no such thing as age discimination in China. The same with my Australian licence.

[Footless Halls]

Fascinated by this thread. I've just received today my new EASA one. It's TINY. Why? And why the change of colour? I have my late Aunt's PLL issued in 1949 and it's a similar brown colour to my old JAR licence, although cloth bound. What a shame they had to change them. I always make a point of flying with my aunt's PPL aboard and it always strikes me as good 'juju'. Not sure my niece will feel that about my EASA micro-PPL in 60 years time.

[alisoncc]

Prior to contributing to this thread I had always believed that the ARB - Air Registration Board, approved licenses for air crew and engineers, whilst the CAA just issued the licences. I may have been incorrect. So did the ARB just handle aircraft registrations and airworthiness requirements? Or was there more to it?

I remember attending a building close to London Tower for exams, interviews, etc. for many weeks in 1968 for my LAME licences.

[FL575]

GOLF BRAVO ZULU and oftenflylo,

I think that this the scratty little thing to which you refer. Each sheet is only 4in x 2in (10cm x 5cm).

From the left: Medical Certificate, IMC Rating, Exemption from ANO, RT Licence, PPL Licence.

And the whole thing was folded and buttoned up with two press studs!

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/1970slicence.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/essjaypr9/media/1970slicence.jpg.html)

I hope this shows correctly this time!

[oftenflylo]

YESS - that is the darn thing. The Spanish did not believe it was a licence & came close to putting me in jail. So the next time I went/ I fabricated a licence out of a UK old cover/ various inserts from my Fijian PPL, ATCO medical, etc, added a passport photo. Most impressive.
Off to the Tower of London now!

[Talkdownman]

came close to putting me in jail
If only…ha ha...

[chevvron]

I got one of those too!
The number was 99045pp5134a!

[RedhillPhil]

Something that's puzzled me............
Do R.A.F. pilots get a licence? What I mean to ask is, suppose I joined the R.A.F. as a student pilot in 1965 with dreams of becoming a steely eyed fighter jockey straight out of university. I'm accepted and do the basic training followed by the fast jet stuff and finally after the requisite time and hours arrive at the point where I am a pilot in a Lightning squadron. Fast forward to 1977 and I'm about to leave the R.A.F. and take up a position with B.A. as an airliner pilot.
Have I got a pilot's licence or will I have to take a civilian test?

[FL575]

Phil,

I am surprised that there has not yet been an answer to your question, as there must be many ex-Royal Air Force pilots who read this column!

The simple answer is no, you do not have a licence as a military pilot.

After you have completed your flying training, you are awarded your ‘wings’. In my time, ‘wings’ were awarded after completion of ‘basic’ flying training (i.e. on completion of Jet Provost flying then) I think today, however, ‘wings’ are awarded upon completion of ‘advanced’ flying training (i.e. Hawk completion today, but Gnat in my time)

The only ‘written’ acknowledgement of this is an entry in your Logbook. At the front of a Military Logbook is ‘Section 1’, ‘Certificates of Qualification as Pilot’. In this section there are 5 columns: Type, Date, Unit, Qualification, Signature and Rank.

So a typical entry in your Logbook would read: Jet Provost, 24/7/80, 3FTS, 1st Pilot Day and Night, A. Person Wg Cdr

After that, as you progress, other aircraft types are added, for example at OCU level, and then Squadron level.

‘Section 2’ of your Logbook is ‘Special Flying Qualifications and Renewals’. This page records dates that you become ‘Operational’ on which type of aircraft. It also can have qualifications such as ‘Combat (ready)’ and in my early days ‘Command Crew’ level. I am not sure that is still around now, though.

‘Section 3’of your Logbook is entitled ‘Instrument Rating’. On this page your instrument rating is recorded. Unlike civilian flying, where you either have a rating or not, in the Military there are ‘grades’ of rating. An inexperienced pilot would have a ‘White’ rating. Whilst holding this rating, the pilot has to add 200ft to any published instrument flying minima.

After a little time, and a certain number of hours, the pilot would take another Instrument Flying test, after which he could obtain a ‘Green’ rating. This would allow the pilot to fly to published instrument flying minima.

Finally, after yet further time and flying, the pilot could take another Instrument Flying test to obtain a ‘Master Green’ rating. This still only allows you to fly to the same minima as a ‘Green’ rating, but you are expected to fly to you limits more accurately and smoothly.

Upon leaving the Royal Air Force, you have no licence, and have to apply to the CAA as a non-RAF person would have to do. However, as an ex-RAF pilot, there are many concessions that you may receive in obtaining your civilian licence, how many depending on your experience etc.

Sorry this is so long-winded, but I hope it gives you some answers to your questions. Please note also, I left the Royal Air Force some time ago, and some of the above information may have changed.

[BEagle]

FL575 wrote: However, as an ex-RAF pilot, there are many concessions that you may receive in obtaining your civilian licence, how many depending on your experience etc.

Not since 22Gp completely screwed everything up when EASA made its unwelcome appearance on the scene!

Virtually all military accreditation has now gone. The valuable retention incentive the RAF had until a couple of years ago no longer exists - with 2000 hrs TT, 1500 PIC of which 500 could be as PIC under supervision, if you flew the TriStar / VC10 / Hercules all you had to do was to pass the Air Law exam and arrange for a civil IRE to observe an IR profile with a military IRE, pay your money and wait for the little green book to be delivered. But with that now gone, more and more people are obtaining civil licences the hard way earlier in their careers and leaving at the first opportunity.... Nice one, 22 Gp.....:rolleyes:

EasyJet are actively recruiting ex-RAF pilots now - and with the retention incentive a thing of the past, their task has become simpler.

[alisoncc]

Quoting from Wikipedia:
The CAA was established in 1972, under the terms of the Civil Aviation Act 1971, following the recommendations of a government committee chaired by Sir Ronald Edwards. Previously, regulation of aviation was the responsibility of the Air Registration Board. So how come the CAA was issuing licences before 1972? And there is no reference to the ARB on any of my paperwork?

That is unless the CAA became an authority in it's own right under the 1971 Act. Previously being a Dept/Div of the Board of Trade. Still a mystery to me as to when and how the CAA Dept/Div took over from the ARB.

[SamMcGowan]

Remember when using acronyms, it's a good idea to define it. Although the UK has a CAA, the first aviation agency in the United States was the Civil Aeronautics Authority which became the Civil Aeronautics Administration and eventually became the Federal Aviation Agency and finally the Federal Aviation Administration. Since the poster is from "Winchester" I assume they're from the U.K., but then again they could be from Winchester, Virginia, Winchester, Kentucky or Winchester, Tennessee and probably any one of a number of other "Winchesters" in the USA.:bored:

[much2much]

gosh, most interesting. and I was just looking, at something about the bcpl after stumbling upon it in easa conversion ,forgotten about that licence, and o then there was a SCPL in the set before that . ATPL exams and less hours required, giving a weight restriction for command (12,000kg??), cream/white in colour, if I remember,




Those professional licences also gave right of entry to the UK and had a photo in,and some script to that effect, all sphiffing and proper.


Chevron :I also had concertina ppl,(great case for keeping other things in!!) and a mark 4 Cortina(ford) which did get concertin -ed-dead.


pp101**a,quite different to yours? o the first bit was on the medical,maybe??


The BCPL(unrestricted) to Cpl, and military accreditation ,were all a bone of contention, along with the removal of the right to fly as F/O on, on a Cpl, without having sat the ATPL exams, this did put some experienced F /O's in a position of having to sit Exams where as some one from a C130 was exempt. just observation not an opinion!







I guess the USA is full of Winchesters, and colts,( not piper ,and and all those kind of things,

[olympus]

I have held at one time or other the full array of British licences but this is one
of the more unusual foreign ones that I hold (now long expired). I also had a Lebanese ATR with a similarly low number
but I mislaid that years ago.

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/olympus14627/mini-P1000297rotate_zps13004fce.jpg (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/olympus14627/media/mini-P1000297rotate_zps13004fce.jpg.html)

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/olympus14627/mini-P1000298_zps96763100.jpg (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/olympus14627/media/mini-P1000298_zps96763100.jpg.html)

[RedhillPhil]

Phil,

I am surprised that there has not yet been an answer to your question, as there must be many ex-Royal Air Force pilots who read this column!

The simple answer is no, you do not have a licence as a military pilot.

After you have completed your flying training, you are awarded your ‘wings’. In my time, ‘wings’ were awarded after completion of ‘basic’ flying training (i.e. on completion of Jet Provost flying then) I think today, however, ‘wings’ are awarded upon completion of ‘advanced’ flying training (i.e. Hawk completion today, but Gnat in my time)

The only ‘written’ acknowledgement of this is an entry in your Logbook. At the front of a Military Logbook is ‘Section 1’, ‘Certificates of Qualification as Pilot’. In this section there are 5 columns: Type, Date, Unit, Qualification, Signature and Rank.

So a typical entry in your Logbook would read: Jet Provost, 24/7/80, 3FTS, 1st Pilot Day and Night, A. Person Wg Cdr

After that, as you progress, other aircraft types are added, for example at OCU level, and then Squadron level.

‘Section 2’ of your Logbook is ‘Special Flying Qualifications and Renewals’. This page records dates that you become ‘Operational’ on which type of aircraft. It also can have qualifications such as ‘Combat (ready)’ and in my early days ‘Command Crew’ level. I am not sure that is still around now, though.

‘Section 3’of your Logbook is entitled ‘Instrument Rating’. On this page your instrument rating is recorded. Unlike civilian flying, where you either have a rating or not, in the Military there are ‘grades’ of rating. An inexperienced pilot would have a ‘White’ rating. Whilst holding this rating, the pilot has to add 200ft to any published instrument flying minima.

After a little time, and a certain number of hours, the pilot would take another Instrument Flying test, after which he could obtain a ‘Green’ rating. This would allow the pilot to fly to published instrument flying minima.

Finally, after yet further time and flying, the pilot could take another Instrument Flying test to obtain a ‘Master Green’ rating. This still only allows you to fly to the same minima as a ‘Green’ rating, but you are expected to fly to you limits more accurately and smoothly.

Upon leaving the Royal Air Force, you have no licence, and have to apply to the CAA as a non-RAF person would have to do. However, as an ex-RAF pilot, there are many concessions that you may receive in obtaining your civilian licence, how many depending on your experience etc.

Sorry this is so long-winded, but I hope it gives you some answers to your questions. Please note also, I left the Royal Air Force some time ago, and some of the above information may have changed.




Sorry for the late reply - I lost the thread! Thank you for your reply, it explains it well.

[much2much]

and of coarse those bits of coloured string that held them together,perhaps that upset the Spanish, the could double a a garotte