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View Full Version : Bye Bye Moyes ?


superq7
21st Apr 2014, 17:23
Looks like he's on his way out.

Next Manchester United manager: Five contenders - Sports Mole (http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/man-utd/news/next-man-united-manager-five-contenders_151104.html)

500N
21st Apr 2014, 17:25
I don't blame them.

Not that much has changed.


It was a never take the job after a successful person has left
because you will never get up to the same level !

superq7
21st Apr 2014, 17:27
I don't support the team but why not bring back Ferguson for say a year ?

racedo
21st Apr 2014, 17:28
Moyes biggest mistake was his dismissal of the backroom staff and bringing in his own people. The reason the backroom staff were there was because they had the trust and experience to have helped the club achieve success.
I believe he treated them badly which didn't go down well with the people who knew what they had contributed.
If he had kept them while transitioning his own team in over the course of a year then this wouldn't have occurred nor would the debacle of a season.

500N
21st Apr 2014, 17:29
racedo

Agree.

Should have gradually changed things.

SpringHeeledJack
21st Apr 2014, 17:50
There was never going to be an easy transition after the reign of AF, a talismanic manager for the club. Due to the way of the game these days, that is the soulless money drenched business where fair weather fans flock to all the big teams where results are guaranteed due to the quality of the players. That's not to say there aren't thousands of die-hard fans who follow their local team through thick and thin, but corporate entities like MU are only willing to accept victory after victory otherwise their brand fails and thus their income.

Moyes should have been given more time, but as said by others the back room staff should have been kept on with Moyes's back room boys so as to learn/integrate/replace. The players are often very petulant and due to their commercial value wield influence higher than they should. Once they had lost faith with any words of faith keeping it was all over. However, the club will now have the problem again with the next manager, good things take time.



SHJ

G-CPTN
21st Apr 2014, 17:58
Successful organisations don't only rely on the figurehead, but also (and, sometimes primarily), on the lieutenants that 'run the show'.

To dismantle the backroom organisation was extremely short-sighted.

racedo
21st Apr 2014, 18:23
Moyes should have been given more time, but as said by others the back room staff should have been kept on with Moyes's back room boys so as to learn/integrate/replace. The players are often very petulant and due to their commercial value wield influence higher than they should. Once they had lost faith with any words of faith keeping it was all over. However, the club will now have the problem again with the next manager, good things take time.

I'm Man Utd through and through...................living in Surrey is the giveaway.

Issue was backroom staff early on as even I knew SAF trusted them year after year and carefully brought people on, clearout was wrong as just destabilised when he should have being doing continuity.

Think it was Ruud Van Nistleroy stated that when he went back last year that the tea lady at the training ground was still the same and he had left 7 years before. Most of same staff were there and he felt he had only left a week or two.

Saintsman
21st Apr 2014, 20:40
They all bring their mates with them. Every new manager 'has' to bring their team.

I always thought that if you are a good manager, then you can manage what is placed in front of you. That doesn't mean that you can't make changes, including moving people on, but to make wholesale changes at the beginning seems a bit premature.

Moyes will take a tidy sum with him when he is sacked and will walk into another high profile job, such is the managerial merry-go-round in football. A history of failure doesn't seem to matter anyway.

Fergie though had seen the writing on the wall and jumped whilst he was still on top...

Wholigan
21st Apr 2014, 20:53
A saying that I always quoted through my many years:

"A new broom doesn't necessarily sweep clean, it usually only throws the shit up into the air so that no bugger knows where it's going to land!".

Xenophon
21st Apr 2014, 20:58
Moyes seems a decent sort unlike his gobsh&^e predecessor.

My solution : cut the players wages . £50k less at the end of the week should focus their minds sufficently to put in a decent performance. Overpaid hairdressers !!!!

Hotel Tango
21st Apr 2014, 21:00
What did Ferguson achieve in his first season at Man U?

Blink182
21st Apr 2014, 21:31
Funniest thing is that Everton will finish in their highest position for years ( best ever ?) without Moyes there :cool:

Hotel Tango
21st Apr 2014, 22:18
The answer to my question is: 11th. Moyes at present is 7th. So what's all the panic? Give the guy more than one season to establish himself. As I said, Fergie only managed 11th in his first season at man U.

PTT
21st Apr 2014, 23:20
Ferguson didn't take over a Championship-winning side. In Atkinson's last season they finished 4th having lost 10 matches; Ferguson finished 11th losing 14. In Ferguson's last season they finished top losing 5 matches; Moyes will likely finish 7th having lost at least 11. Furthermore, Moyes is doing worse at a "better" club than his old club is doing without him. Small sample size, but to me this suggests he was perhaps holding them back, which does not speak well of his abilities.

Not that I think Ferguson is blameless in this.

Hotel Tango
21st Apr 2014, 23:48
With the injuries the club has had this season I wonder how well Ferguson would have done? We will never know of course, but my guess is that they wouldn't have been champions, and probably not even in the top four with Ferguson still at the helm. He knew his team had peaked and he timed his departure perfectly.

500N
21st Apr 2014, 23:54
I think maybe he also looked at what the other teams were doing,
not just what was happening to his team.

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 00:31
With the injuries the club has had this season I wonder how well Ferguson would have done? We will never know of course, but my guess is that they wouldn't have been champions, and probably not even in the top four with Ferguson still at the helm. He knew his team had peaked and he timed his departure perfectly.

Quite possibly not Champions but doubt they would be even close to where they are now.

Man Utd are an attacking side, that is their pedigree. That is what people come to see be it Coppell and Hill as wingers in 1970's or even to the ones they have now.

Currently they play defensively where even winning its lucky, lack of consistency, lack of flair and lack of passion and there is not a never say die attitude around.

SAF got a lot out of occasional mediocre sides, they played as a team even when they were not the best on the field.

The team understood the passion of the fans.
On one occasion after fans had been beaten up by Italian police in Rome at the return leg in Manchester the team destroyed Roma.
Players didn't say anything BUT the supporters knew that was as much about what happened in Rome as it was about the Champions league.

I think Moyes is a good manager just he got rid of the wrong people and didn't understand the culture and instead of playing attacking he wants to play safe.

ManUtd1999
22nd Apr 2014, 01:10
It's not looking good for Moyes, but I hope we stick with him. I thought we were a club that valued continuity and didn't look for knee-jerk reations and overnight success. Leave that to Abramovich and City. Replacing SAF was always going to be a near impossible task and Moyes should be given another season to try and turn it around.

He's made some errors I agree. As people have pointed out, sacking most of the backroom staff was foolish and his tactics haven't always seemed to make much sense. Players that last year were the best in the league (RVP, Rafael) or exciting stars of the future (Cleverley, Welbeck, Zaha) have seemed to lack energy and direction this year which is ultimately Moyes' job. However, we've already backed him to the tune of 50mil + (which incoming manager is going to want Fellaini?) so surely it's foolish to cut our losses so early.

Krystal n chips
22nd Apr 2014, 06:27
Much as I detest football, when I lived in Manchester the M.E.N ensured the population were suitably indoctrinated with both teams.....like it or not.

As others have said however, following Alex Ferguson was always going to be a poisoned chalice.....Ferguson would have succeeded in any sector as a manager, not just football.

The result of his efforts however, allied to the influx of serious, if not obscene finance associated with football has probably got as much to do with the speculated departure of David Moyes as the results....

Man.Utd are a world wide brand, not simply a football team and, whilst Utd were always prominent in the League / Europe when Ferguson took over, his initial seasons in charge simply didn't have the same financial pressures surrounding the results.

If, on the other hand, he did remove the backroom staff, then despite the well trodden path of managers bringing their own " best friends " with them when they arrive at a club, he made the rod for his own back....."if it ain't broke, don't fix it "......and you get the impression the essential supporting personnel were very far from broken in their commitment to the club.

There's also the minor detail regarding the fact, if he does leave prematurely, he's unlikely to be claiming Jobseekers Allowance....the inevitable "undisclosed settlement" usually comprises of £xm.....which is ever so slightly more than most redundancy offers.

500N
22nd Apr 2014, 06:35
That is a good point. MU are not just a football team so lack of results affects sales worl wide - big $$$ lost.

Buster Hyman
22nd Apr 2014, 07:47
.......*tee-hee! :E

denachtenmai
22nd Apr 2014, 08:04
^^^ what 'e said, with knobs on:D

Akrotiri71
22nd Apr 2014, 08:14
Been a MU fan since I first saw Georgie Best grace the pitch in the late 60's. What a footballer!

When SAF took over MU they were winning nothing. Hadn't won the league since 1967. Three FA Cup wins since 1962!! Only kept his job after winning the FA Cup in 1989/90. So there no pressure on him at all, having to follow Ron Atkinson...:(

The game is now a £multi-million business. And we all know what happens to the gaffers of top businesses that don't perform.....Spanish archer.

Moyes was always on a hiding to nothing. IMO he was always a mid-table manager at best. A decent bloke for sure, but not the right man for a top four team.
Having to follow a manager that had won the most honours, longest serving manager in club history, was a big challenge indeed.

Effluent Man
22nd Apr 2014, 08:18
As long as the disruption effects them next Saturday I don't care.We need three points for survival.

Akrotiri71
22nd Apr 2014, 08:24
As long as the disruption effects them next Saturday I don't care.We need three points for survival.

After watching the Canaries against Liverpool, a 3-pointer for you at OT is a decent bet. Chelsea/Arsenal that's a couple of tough ones!

Effluent Man
22nd Apr 2014, 08:38
We are pinning our hopes on United wanting to avoid 5/6th places and Thursday night trips to Godforsaken destinations.

Akrotiri71
22nd Apr 2014, 08:42
Just heard Moyes has gone. £10m-12m severance pay......:confused:

tezzer
22nd Apr 2014, 08:44
Confirmed as sacked.

Akrotiri71
22nd Apr 2014, 08:47
http://i61.tinypic.com/210as06.jpg

Andy_S
22nd Apr 2014, 09:05
I feel rather sorry for the bloke he always struck me as a decent man and a competent manager, and I thought he deserved a crack at managing a bigger club. Unfortunately SAF’s footsteps are very big for any but a top European coach to step into to.

I think his biggest problem was the sheer level of expectation at Man Utd; this is a club which has become accustomed to Champions League football and (at the very least) contention for the Premiership title every season. In an ideal world an incoming manager would be given time to learn the ropes and put his own stamp on the team, but the stakes are so high that instant success is now demanded.

Moyes problems were compounded by the fact that he inherited an ageing team with several key players past their best, and also a team used to operating under a very distinctive managerial regime. He also wasn’t helped by some of their closest rivals raising their game, in one case spectacularly so

There’s no doubt he made mistakes – particularly in dispensing with SAF’s backroom staff, but also with transfers and tactics, but surely the point in giving him a 6 year contract was recognition that after the SAF years there would need to be a process of transition and rebuilding, and that Moyes would need time to grow into the job.

One final comment. It’s been suggested that the final nail in his coffin was that – in a game that was personally important to him – the Man Utd players weren’t “playing for the manager”. Well shame on them. If the players are now dictating who they will play for and at which games, then all is lost.

lasernigel
22nd Apr 2014, 09:12
.......*tee-hee!

......*tee-hee tee hee:ok::ok:

Wouldn't mind his alledged £10M pay off though.

From a Sky Blue through and through.:ok:

Just announced it's official now

Curious Pax
22nd Apr 2014, 09:19
I think that he would have been given more time if there was a sense that he had a plan. Undoubtedly he was changing things behind the scenes, but his tactics on the pitch were unimaginative and one dimensional. It wasn't a coincidence that (in the context of this season) they did reasonably well against Bayern, and that was because he could set up United as he used to set up Everton against a top team. Unfortunately in the league he also couldn't shake off the Everton mindset, which opened the door for opponents.

Had United been in seventh, lost the same number of games, but attempted to attack their way out of trouble this season then I think he would still be manager. Instead he proved unable to adapt from his Everton ways (and bringing his Everton back room staff with him was the first alarm bell) and has paid the price.

Comparisons with Ferguson's first 3 seasons are invalid as a) we could see what he was trying to do, and b) expectations were low.

Although the players do have questions to answer, I believe that the issues stem from poor leadership. In my line of work I've seen many times departments produce much different results depending on who is leading them. That applies even more so in football where inspiration is key.

Although the quest for continuity when he was appointed was commendable, I said at the time, and still say that they should have gone for Mourinho. He had both the experience and the ego not to be phased by the new job, and although he may only have stayed 3-4 years it would have been fun while it lasted.

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Apr 2014, 09:24
I was also surprised that Jose did not get the job, I honestly believed SAF was grooming him from afar for the role.

IB4138
22nd Apr 2014, 09:24
DING DONG! :ok:

Akrotiri71
22nd Apr 2014, 09:40
Had United been in seventh, lost the same number of games, but attempted to attack their way out of trouble this season then I think he would still be manager. Instead he proved unable to adapt from his Everton ways....
Pretty much sums it up. It's been a long time since I've seen MU "park the bus" against anyone. I'd rather lose 5-0 attacking, than 2-0 sitting deep.

I think bringing Fellaini with him was a terrible decision. He should have perservered with getting Baines on board. A natural successor to Evra, plus can play in mid-field until the Frenchman departed. Mata was a knee-jerk signing, after Moyes missed the bus during the summer signings.

Andy_S
22nd Apr 2014, 09:42
I think that he would have been given more time if there was a sense that he had a plan.

Listening to the breaking news on the radio yesterday, one comment made made basically said that while there was undoubtedly money available to rebuild the team, there was a lack of confidence behind the scenes - following the purchases of Fellaini and Mata - that it would be spent wisely.

lasernigel
22nd Apr 2014, 10:45
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/moyes_zps8d4f7f49.jpg

They're coming thick and fast on the joke side.:ok:

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 10:50
It's not looking good for Moyes, but I hope we stick with him. I thought we were a club that valued continuity and didn't look for knee-jerk reations and overnight success. Leave that to Abramovich and City. Replacing SAF was always going to be a near impossible task and Moyes should be given another season to try and turn it around.


He lost me a number of months ago as I don't wish to watch Man Utd if they are not attacking and playing exciting football.

Yup we can grind the results on a bad day but on a good day I want to see wave after wave of attacks coming from everywhere.

I can accept we having a bad run IF the football was good and we were just unlucky with results even though we played someone off the park, however at best we were average. Average is not good enough for Man Utd.

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 10:53
As others have said however, following Alex Ferguson was always going to be a poisoned chalice.....Ferguson would have succeeded in any sector as a manager, not just football.


Think the fact that Harvard want him to be a guest lecturer speaks for itself.

Its a long way from a shipyard Apprentice from Govan.

Point always was he showed Leadership when it was required, sadly Mayes was a manger not a Leader.

bnt
22nd Apr 2014, 11:57
Ryan Giggs is taking over for the moment as Interim Manager. Hmmm.

ilvaporista
22nd Apr 2014, 11:58
It's been rumoured that Nigel Farage will be the new manager as he is quite happy to be out of Europe

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 12:16
Ryan Giggs is taking over for the moment as Interim Manager. Hmmm.

Until end of season / appoints a new manager, no supporters have an issue with that.

I have disliked the way Moyes has pretty much ignored Giggs. He showed against Bayern what he could do but Moyes ignored that.

Now personally would like Giggs to get to 1000 club games with Man Utd, may not happen but I find few fans from other clubs who would begrudge him that.

His personal life is his own business but he has pretty much epitomised How a professional footbaler should behave.

Curious Pax
22nd Apr 2014, 13:33
The Bristol Post has found a local angle:
Former Bristol City player David Moyes sacked by Manchester United
(http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristol-City-player-David-Moyes-sacked-Manchester/story-20993410-detail/story.html#ixzz2zcMTfdBc)

angels
22nd Apr 2014, 13:40
Excellent Curious, I love the 'local' angle to a big story.

IIRC there was one, "Local man nearly got on Titanic" or somesuch.

acbus1
22nd Apr 2014, 14:34
The severance payoff disgusts me.

Anybody would think he worked in the Public Sector.

acbus1
22nd Apr 2014, 14:34
...or a bank.

Mariner9
22nd Apr 2014, 14:43
I would have thought a good severance deal would be an important part of any job contract for a Premiership Manager, given the virtual non-existent job-security.

surely not
22nd Apr 2014, 15:43
A top 4 finish and not too many points adrift of the winners would have seen Moyes given the time to settle into the position, but to go from winning by 11 points last season to finishing 7th and adrift by 23 points so far this season is unacceptable.

The only real difference to United this year has been Moyes. The team remained the same except for Fellaini who was injured and missed a lot of the season so not really a major player.

It was so frustrating to watch United play and regularly have only 5 or 6 chances on goal even against supposedly weaker teams is down to the tactics of the manager.

Perhaps the most damning statistic is that last season United, with the same basic team, scored 86 goals and conceded 43, This season they have scored a miserable shriveled 56 goals and conceded 40.

Defensively the numbers are not too dissimilar, but what a difference in the goal scoring!! That suggests poor tactics by the Manager because it is the same players as the previous season. It is the way they have been set up to play that has been such a shock this season. RVP injured is not the complete story of the missing goals, the team looking like they have never played together is more of a factor. The team was confused as to what was required and the constant changing of players from game to game was bemusing. Against Newcastle the team seemed to play well together and have an understanding, so for the Everton game it is all change again :ugh::ugh:

I am not surprised the players performed badly, the tactics were not clear, and they rarely if ever had the same player next to them in the team.

Moyes was worth a try but he had to go. For all those saying it isn't the United way, clearly you weren't around when Busby stood down and we went through quite a few managers before finding Sir Alex.

Van Gaal will do nicely.

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 15:49
Moyes was worth a try but he had to go. For all those saying it isn't the United way, clearly you weren't around when Busby stood down and we went through quite a few managers before finding Sir Alex.

He was worth a try but he went from driving a Ford Focus to an Aston Martin, he just hadn't got it.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2014, 17:41
Remember that failure to qualify for the Champions' League has just cost ManU about £40m

BT Champions League deal makes qualification worth £40m+ (http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/latest-news/bt-champions-league-deal-makes-qualification-worth-%C2%A340m-)

There are currently 6 clubs that start each season with realistic expectations of securing a CL place - two will miss-out and few managers will probably survive the failure.

That's why Moyes has been sacked (and why Wenger hasn't, despite not winning a trophy for 10 years)

Follow the money!

Worth remembering that playing in Europe when Ferguson started was worth about three & fourpence.

er340790
22nd Apr 2014, 17:54
To be honest, I think Moyes was too much of a 'nice-guy' after SAF.

None of the players ever dared put in a bad shift with SAF... they knew they'd be on the end of a 'hair-dryer' roasting that they'd never forget.

For all his attributes, Moyes just wasn't scary enough...

ManUtd1999
22nd Apr 2014, 19:20
To be honest, I think Moyes was too much of a 'nice-guy' after SAF.

None of the players ever dared put in a bad shift with SAF... they knew they'd be on the end of a 'hair-dryer' roasting that they'd never forget.

For all his attributes, Moyes just wasn't scary enough...

That's a key point. SAF motivated/scared players into performing above themselves. Look at the Madrid game last year, we played superbly and should have won but for the referee. The 11 that played that night and won the title at a canter are by and large the same 11 that get humiliated weekly at the moment. For whatever reason, Moyes couldn't seem to get the same performance levels.

I still believe we have the basis of a good side though, talk of a complete rebuild is overdone. With a new centreback, left-back and central midfielder in the summer a starting line-up like this would be a match for anyone.

De Gea
Rafael - Jones - **** - ****
------Carrick--****
Kagawa---Mata---Januzaj
Rooney

Moyes should have given a summer and 1 more season IMO to try and turn things around.

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 19:34
Moyes should have given a summer and 1 more season IMO to try and turn things around.

I figured he would get until October as if by then we were in 6-7th place and no improvement.

However it was that there was a lack of belief he could turn things round.

I didn't feel confident that giving him £100 M to spend in transfer window we would end up with players who would move us from where we are.

bnt
22nd Apr 2014, 19:53
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Blv8gQuIQAAay2K.jpg

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Apr 2014, 23:23
ManU shares up 5%.

ManU fans should realise that the Glazers would turn Old Trafford into a brothel or an abattoir tomorrow if it would make more profit.

racedo
22nd Apr 2014, 23:28
ManU fans should realise that the Glazers

Amazing people if the Wiki is partily true..................... I only come up with one conclusion, a 3 letter one as well.

Andy_S
23rd Apr 2014, 08:19
To be honest, I think Moyes was too much of a 'nice-guy' after SAF.

That pretty much nails the problem.

Can you imagine the Man Utd players not putting in a shift because they weren't convinced by SAF's tactics and training measures? It was his way or the highway....... Someone recently compared Old Trafford under SAF's tenure to North Korea, and I think there's an element of truth to that. His authority was absolute. Any player knew that if they dared to cross him there would only be one winner.

sitigeltfel
23rd Apr 2014, 09:00
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02889/23-April-Matt-web_2889775a.jpg

Private jet
23rd Apr 2014, 11:04
I think Moyes has played a blinder quite frankly. A 10 million plus payoff?, thats at least a million a month. I'd be a "failure" for that. Also, as previously stated football management is a game of musical chairs, he'll be back in a job in a few months i reckon.

Alloa Akbar
23rd Apr 2014, 11:58
Typically that other renowned gobshite Roy Keane was right last night, certain senior players should be ashamed of themselves. They undermined Moyes from the start. Sure, he should never have been the manager, but Giggs and Ferdinand would be the first two faces out of the door if I was the next manager.

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 12:30
That pretty much nails the problem.

Can you imagine the Man Utd players not putting in a shift because they weren't convinced by SAF's tactics and training measures? It was his way or the highway....... Someone recently compared Old Trafford under SAF's tenure to North Korea, and I think there's an element of truth to that. His authority was absolute. Any player knew that if they dared to cross him there would only be one winner.

Playing for Man Utd for most players is the pinnacle of their careers as leaving there really are few who go on to better.

SAF was a disciplinarian, that was required because you have 20 something year old players earning a million a year and wanting to spend like idiots.

BUT what he did at the club was to ensure players got lots of training and support off the field that involved looking after money so as not to be taken for a ride by conmen, PR training, lifestyle training and guidance and all the help that was required.

Many of the new managers in the game found out about him when he called them up asking how they were doing and offering them support, in lower leagues when you are a manger of a small club you are on your own. Someone offering help assistance and support goes a long way. Its not a shock that he worked with FA coaching new managers and offering assistance because he saw the change from being a footballer one day to being a manager as a big jump where most 1st time managers failed and never managed again.

Would Man Utd have had the success if he wasn't tight on discipline ?
Some but not all
Beckham...............spending more time on his brand than on football and it was being disruptive
Stam...........sold after autobiography criticising players BUT 2 months before found with drugs in his system
Keane........abusing his teammates

Also club booted out good players who had not yet made it who caught with drugs or in one case who killed someone in a car race.

Looking at ex Man Utd players who have become managers tells its own story. Also noticeable that with few exceptions ..............Keane being one there are few ex Man Utd players jumping on SAF. Keane was a great player but is and has always been a flawed character.

The Hair Dryer treatment happened but seemingly less frequent than people would like to think.

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 12:35
Typically that other renowned gobshite Roy Keane was right last night, certain senior players should be ashamed of themselves.

This from the player who abused his team mates in public, walked out on his country at a world cup and failed every managerial position he had.

Roy has a big chip on his shoulder.

Keane has novelty value on TV, nothing else.

superq7
23rd Apr 2014, 12:46
racedo re Roy Keane remember what he did to Alf- Inge Haland ? he finished that poor lads career with a terrible tackle and then seemed proud about it afterwards, he's a nasty piece of work IMHO.

Avitor
23rd Apr 2014, 12:47
AF is clever! Clever enough to spot the oncoming end of an era. Moyes walked into a bear pit.

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 12:53
racedo re Roy Keane remember what he did to Alf- Inge Haland ? he finished that poor lads career with a terrible tackle and then seemed proud about it afterwards, he's a nasty piece of work IMHO.

Nope on that one.
Alf retired due to damage to a leg, it wasn't the one Keane hit and he had issue already with it before Keane.

All my mates who supported other teams hated Keane BUT every single one would have loved them in their team as a player.
He was a brilliant player but has a dirty side, most players do.
As he got older and slower and realised he would never be what he was he used his mouth rather than his ability.

superq7
23rd Apr 2014, 12:58
racedo, I bow to your superior knowledge on that one :ok:

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 12:59
AF is clever! Clever enough to spot the oncoming end of an era.

David Mellor, yes that one, used to write for Evening Standard, he may still do.
Mellor was predicting that end of era at Manchester United pretty much at start of every season since turn of the century.
He was a Chelsea fan who said when Jose came that United were finished, they won 5 Premierships after that.

Club are a re global brand and incredible money making machine, way more so that anybody else, its transition and expect it to take 3 years and we at end of year 1.

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 13:00
racedo, I bow to your superior knowledge on that one :ok:

Many pub nights spent arguing that one and online. :ugh:

surely not
23rd Apr 2014, 13:39
I cannot believe people are saying that Sir Alex left the club in a mess so he would look better. Better than what? Better than being acknowledged as the best manager of an English football club ever? Better than being known as an excellent man manager?

He loved Manchester United first and foremost, and it is beyond belief that he would do anything to deliberately harm them. He left such a weak and aging team............... what utter bulls#!t. He left a team that beat all the other super teams in the Premier league by 11 points. He left a team capable of scoring 86 goals in the season.

It was not an ancient team with the exception of Ferdinand and Giggs (though Giggs only by his birth certificate not his performances). Terry is older than Vidic and Evra but isn't considered over the hill. Lampard is older than all the United midfield other than Giggs. Sir Alex was rebuilding and managed to get the new crop performing well. Cleverley, Raphael, Jones, Evans, Kagawa etc all performed very well for Sir Alex.

Sir Alex also had a backroom staff who knew how to win, and they were tossed aside for guys with experience of finishing mid table or no experience at all!!

Moyes never let a team settle together and he definitely subdued their attacking instincts. So few attempts on goal in each game. It was painful to watch. However having just read Moyes first words since his dismissal on BBC Sport it can be agreed he is a dignified and honest man.

Fingers crossed for Van Gaal to come in.

Alloa Akbar
23rd Apr 2014, 14:00
SAF and his team had come to the end of their shelf life. There was nothing untoward or underhand about letting a new man come in and rebuild a team in his own image.

As for Keane I am no fan, and yes there is a degree of hypocrisy in his comments, but that doesn't make them any less right. But then again, hypocrisy in football.. Who would have thought it :rolleyes:

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 15:50
SAF and his team had come to the end of their shelf life. There was nothing untoward or underhand about letting a new man come in and rebuild a team in his own image.

Which team ?

I have seen probably 8 different Man Utd teams under SAF, some players the same in a couple, Giggs to be fair in most but Team left wasn't at end of shelf life.

Moyes I believe got all the support he could have wanted, problem is he didn't want it.

When you still have the guys who played there 22 years ago and left 10 years wanting to do anything to help and make it work then that tells you something.

Alloa Akbar
23rd Apr 2014, 16:20
Racedo - I would offer up the following as "Past their best" and in need of replacement (For United to compete in the league where depth of squad is key).

Evra, Ferdinand, Giggs, Fletcher, Nani, Vidic, Valencia, Young and Carrick is in his twilight. Add that to the "Not United standard" players such as Rafael (red card in waiting every game), Cleverley, Kagawa, Smalling, Hernandez, Welbeck, Buttner, Fellaini and who's left?

As a neutral I would say United have got De Gea, Jones, Rooney, Mata and RVP. The rest are not what I would describe as up the standards United have set in the modern era. To that end, I think Fergie was right to leave and let a new man re-vamp the team. Some have been great players such as Ferdinand, Vidic and Giggs, whilst others have been very good "engine room" men such as Fletcher and Carrick. The rest have just not made the grade.. And I don't care if they have been picked for England, that doesn't make them good players. I read this week that Welbeck isn't happy that he can't get a regular start.. Easy answer - Learn to put the ball in the onion bag regularly son, after all, you are a striker!

Moyes made several niaive mistakes, he was never the man to lead the next generation, but then somebody had to be the fall guy following the legend.

surely not
23rd Apr 2014, 18:02
Odd that you include RVP in the list of acceptable United players. He's no blooming use on the treatment table as per this season (though it is thought this might be cos he didn't get on with Moyes). He's also knocking on a bit at 31.

Evra, Ferdinand, Giggs, Fletcher, Nani, Vidic, Valencia, Young and Carrick is in his twilight. Add that to the "Not United standard" players such as Rafael (red card in waiting every game), Cleverley, Kagawa, Smalling, Hernandez, Welbeck, Buttner, Fellaini

Ferdinand, Nani, Young I agree have been poor and below standard. Giggs has been very good when he has played but cannot play every game so is he worth a space in the squad? I think probably he is. Vidic is still as good as Terry and younger. Valencia is definitely up to standard and Fletcher, Carrick also

Kagawa had a serious illness at the start of the season requiring a stomach pump but I have never read what the problem was. Perhaps this explains his lack of game time until now, but he links well with Mata. Cleverley was good last year but seems to have been unable to cope with life after Sir Alex. Welbeck looked good earlier in a central role when both Rooney and RVP were out. Hernandez needs game time. Smalling is a better right back than Rafael defensively but Rafael is the better attacking right back. Buttner has had very few chances though he looked better against Bayern Munich than Evra did and I think will develop quickly. Which leaves Fellaini and hopefully he will leave.

It is difficult to judge any of the players on this season cos Moyes mucked around with the team sheet to an alarming amount every blooming game. The best teams have a settled core of players but it was all over the shop this year for United. Plus the game plans seemed non existant. High ball into the box was the early method and very ineffective, after that it was impossible to discern any plans.

I think there will be a clear and positive response this weekend as in the way the team is set up to play, and the players should deliver a much improved performance. At least there should be an increase on efforts on goal!!

Adebayor was a mess for AVB but Sherwood has him firing again and I think Giggs and the gang will do similar. Then get a Manager who is strong, confident and attacking and the current players will respond.

racedo
23rd Apr 2014, 18:57
It is difficult to judge any of the players on this season cos Moyes mucked around with the team sheet to an alarming amount every blooming game. The best teams have a settled core of players but it was all over the shop this year for United. Plus the game plans seemed non existant. High ball into the box was the early method and very ineffective, after that it was impossible to discern any plans.

Difficult to disagree with your synopsis.

Man Utd didn't become a bad side overnight nor did the players so you got to look at training and tactics. Manager not players are responsible for those but if not developed then never going to work.

Winning is about instill the belief that you are better than other team before you have even left the dressing room, there hasn't been that. Roy Keane psyched Patrick Viera out before a Man Utd - Arsenal game years ago, all the players saw it as well. United had won the game before they walked on the pitch.

Wellback is Manchester born and bred and his comments underlie a frustration that he not getting enough game time but I think also about how team playing. As for goals he has scored 9 in 21 league outings this year.

There are few Man Utd players who wouldn't fit into a top Premier league side though have friends who will regularly turn around and say Darren Fletcher would never be good enough for their club, reminding them what he has won V thri won club is a good response.

Akrotiri71
23rd Apr 2014, 20:36
Agree with the comments above.

When Moyes bought Fellaini I knew exactly his game plan. Thump the ball up the park, (Route 1), hope he gets on the end of it for a knock-down to a player running on. Bollocks! Then he got injured and Moyes was bereft of ideas. MU don't play football that way. Fellaini needs to go, along with the diving toe-rag Young.

I think we have a nucleus of players for a good side with the right man at the helm. For me, I would like to see Welbeck & RvP up front, with Rooney playing the Cantona role in the hole behind them.

Buster Hyman
23rd Apr 2014, 22:00
No refunds for Fellaini! :E

Akrotiri71
23rd Apr 2014, 22:14
Aint that the truth Buster!

West Ham might buy him when Carrol gets crocked! :ok:

Alloa Akbar
24th Apr 2014, 09:08
I think Giggs has been a terrific servant to the club and a wonderful footballer, I just think his time is up.. He is knocking on 41 after all. Remember all the remarks about Beckham who was "Past it for the premier league" at 35?? (And he was extremely fit and capable in the same way Giggs was at that age.)

As for the others, I really do have to disagree (The great thing about sport discussions eh? :ok:) with several views.

Vidic - Was a very good player, but injury has caught up with him and United have had his best years. Still a good player, just not the player he was.

Fletcher - Illness and time have got the better of him.

Valencia - Totally disagree, I think he is ok on some days, but not often enough.

For me as a neutral, United have set themselves a very high bar. Sure, many of the squad would get into another Premier league team, but would they walk in at Bayern Munich or Real Madrid? No. And that is the crux of it. United under Fergie became one of Europes top 5 teams along with Barcelona, Bayern, Real and some may argue Chelsea. Teams who are consistently in the last 4 of the Champions League, teams who can win the Champions League, and consistently producing or attracting players of the calibre of Ronaldo, Beckham, Giggs.. Not just good players, but iconic superstars who could win a game all on their own. That was complimented by support players who whilst not being the global superstars, were outstanding in their relative positions to support the star players.. Keane, Scholes, Neville etc. As if to underline this point, todays papers are carrying stories that Everton are to make bids for Welbeck and Cleverley. No offence Buster, but given United's pedigree in recent years, that would and should be seen as a step down.

Manchester United 2014 in my view are a long way short of the dominant European force they were in recent times. The Damned United eh?

Nick Riviera
24th Apr 2014, 13:24
Roy Keane psyched Patrick Viera out before a Man Utd - Arsenal game years ago, all the players saw it as well. United had won the game before they walked on the pitch.


Crap. Nobody ever intimidated Vieira. I know the game you are alluding to, with the bust-up in the tunnel before the game. United won that night because they were the better team, no more, no less. At that time Arsenal were not a team who could be "psyched out".

surely not
24th Apr 2014, 14:02
Wow you are still alive and well Nick......... you have been AWOL on the Cricket Thread for too long!

One thing to be grateful for is that Moyes didn't get rid of Warren Joyce and the good work he does with the young lads coming through wasn't wrecked.

If we get a Manager like Van Gaal I really believe that the youngsters such as Cleverley, and to a degree Raphael and Jones, who struggled this season will be a revelation next season. Plus there are some good players ready to break through into the first team. There was talk of players almost to the standard of the class of 93. Buttner is another who might blossom with a Dutch coach.

Now all we need to do is get the big name Manager.

racedo
24th Apr 2014, 14:26
Crap. Nobody ever intimidated Vieira. I know the game you are alluding to, with the bust-up in the tunnel before the game. United won that night because they were the better team, no more, no less. At that time Arsenal were not a team who could be "psyched out".

Vieira threatened to break Nevilles legs and got pulled away by his own team mates and they were calming it down. Instead of imtimidating United it backfired.
Vieira got called on his own lack of qualities i.e "if you are so F***** good why aren't you playing for Real Madrid".
Vieira responded and threatened to break Keanes legs on the pitch with Keanes response of "I'll see you out there".
Even Refereee Graham Poll who heard it all said Keanes put down of Vieira were funny and he opinioned that Vieira was never in the match after that.

Alloa Akbar
24th Apr 2014, 16:02
Surely Not - How remiss of me, Jones, now there is a player! :ok:

If only he had a regular berth :ugh:

Curious Pax
24th Apr 2014, 17:23
Got my season ticket renewal letter through the post just now. It included a booklet from a Mr Moyes looking forward to seeing me there next season. Presumably he got a Streford End season ticket as part of his severance package.

One thing you can never fault United for, and that is timing!

Nick Riviera
24th Apr 2014, 18:37
Vieira threatened to break Nevilles legs and got pulled away by his own team mates and they were calming it down. Instead of imtimidating United it backfired.
Vieira got called on his own lack of qualities i.e "if you are so F***** good why aren't you playing for Real Madrid".
Vieira responded and threatened to break Keanes legs on the pitch with Keanes response of "I'll see you out there".
Even Refereee Graham Poll who heard it all said Keanes put down of Vieira were funny and he opinioned that Vieira was never in the match after that.

Well, I was at that match and I can assure you that Vieira had a good game. Track down a copy of it and see for yourself. Interesting that you think the mark of being a good player is that they play for Real Madrid. Better tell Messi that. Anyone who doesn't think that Vieira was world class is a fool or Roy Keane. Thinking that Vieira was "psyched out" because he didn't break another player's leg is also an unusual stance. Is it better to deliberately, with intent, stamp on a fellow professional's leg, stand over him and mouth obscenities? If you think that anyone ever intimidated Vieira then you have no idea what you are talking about.

Nick Riviera
24th Apr 2014, 18:43
Wow you are still alive and well Nick......... you have been AWOL on the Cricket Thread for too long!

Still around, SN. I don't post a lot these days as it was getting pointless being pulled into internet arguments. Sometimes, though, I crack when I read something that is utter garbage.

racedo
24th Apr 2014, 22:02
Well, I was at that match and I can assure you that Vieira had a good game. Track down a copy of it and see for yourself. Interesting that you think the mark of being a good player is that they play for Real Madrid. Better tell Messi that. Anyone who doesn't think that Vieira was world class is a fool or Roy Keane. Thinking that Vieira was "psyched out" because he didn't break another player's leg is also an unusual stance. Is it better to deliberately, with intent, stamp on a fellow professional's leg, stand over him and mouth obscenities? If you think that anyone ever intimidated Vieira then you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Real Madrid point was made by Keane among other comments, Vieira had agreed to join Madrid and then stayed at Arsenal. Vieira already has stated he started it and he was manhandled by Bergkamp among others, kept making threats and was told by Keane it would be sorted out on pitch.
Vieira lost it before the game even started and his own team knew it.

racedo
24th Apr 2014, 22:03
Anyone who doesn't think that Vieira was world class is a fool or Roy Keane. Thinking that Vieira was "psyched out" because he didn't break another player's leg is also an unusual stance.

Vieira stated that was his intent not anybody elses.

IB4138
25th Apr 2014, 08:44
One thing to be grateful for is that Moyes didn't get rid of Warren Joyce and the good work he does with the young lads coming through wasn't wrecked.

If he had been given more time, he would have!

See MEN article:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/david-moyes-tried-change-manchester-7025321

Nick Riviera
25th Apr 2014, 09:22
This is exactly why I rarely post now. Getting dragged into an argument with someone who makes a ridiculous statement and then fails to back it up. You stick to your fantasy football world, I have better things to do.

fabs
25th Apr 2014, 10:02
Hmmm. That MEN article has a whiff of Man U's PR machine winding into action. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Moyes' sacking (and appointment in the first place), the club have been hurt by the accusations from the LMA.

Seldomfitforpurpose
25th Apr 2014, 10:14
Fabs,

I agree with your sentiment but as far as football goes the LMA is just a bunch of toothless old wannabees. Money is at the heart of the game not sentiment and as sad as that maybe no one holding the purse strings or those putting money into said purse gives a toss when a guy fails spectacularly as DM has done.

Andy_S
25th Apr 2014, 10:27
Getting dragged into an argument with someone who makes a ridiculous statement and then fails to back it up.

Nick,

You're trying to have a rational discussion with a Man Utd fan about football and their clubs place within it; you may as well try and have a rational discussion with the Taliban about Islam and how it relates to other religions......

fabs
25th Apr 2014, 10:38
The LMA is indeed a toothless tiger. But I reckon the Glazers probably thought they would have the unanimous backing of all wrt the Moyes sacking, after all he has singlehandedly brought a great institution racing towards mediocrity, hasn't he?
I don't really believe that. I'm neither a Man U lover or hater, I'm quite indifferent to them. Always liked SAF (my club was the last club he played for before moving on to become player/manager somewhere else), I just can't believe that Moyes would change the youth system that SAF (his friend and mentor) had spent decades 'perfecting'.
End of the day, Moyes was the wrong person for the job, not his fault. By all accounts he's a nice, honest guy; just his brand of football has always been very dull to watch, something I imagine the real football fans amongst the Man U faithful were wary of. He was badly treated.
Moving on though, if I had sunk billions into this club with the hope of turning a profit, I would be (or paying someone to) watch all the games since Moyes took over, any players not putting in 100% effort (given their quite generous wages) would be hauled in front of me to explain personally why they should remain on such lucrative contracts and I would publicly bring them to account. Probably not easy but I'm sure the Glazers could afford the best legal representation.

racedo
25th Apr 2014, 11:20
The LMA is indeed a toothless tiger. But I reckon the Glazers probably thought they would have the unanimous backing of all wrt the Moyes sacking, after all he has singlehandedly brought a great institution racing towards mediocrity, hasn't he?

Someone leaked the story to MEN on Monday afternoon.
Club had not spoken to Moyes at that stage and really only one or two people who have power to make that decision or arrange a meeting, meeting only arranged on Monday evening.

It is quite possible thet MEN went with a story that they guessed at, unlikely but possible or someone either within Moyes camp or Man Utd camp tipped them off.

surely not
26th Apr 2014, 09:14
Don't worry Woody42, back in the dark ages when Liverpool were last successful on a regular basis there were thousands of Liverpool fans in Surrey, Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, and probably 80% had never been to Liverpool let alone Anfield.

Strangely this situation was accepted as normal until they fell of their perch of success and then jealous of the success started to point out that Man Utd had lots of non Manchester based fans as if this is a problem. I cannot understand why it is seen as an issue that the team plays attractive, successful, football and attracts fans from outside its own post code area.

For the first time since the first few games of the season I am hopeful of seeing United playing the strong attacking style again in the last 4 games of the season.

Re Viera. A very talented individual who like Keane was a real dirty bar steward when it was needed, and sometimes when it wasn't. In your own team the sort of player you appreciate, in opposition he would be someone who you try to nullify any way you can.

Rob Courtney
26th Apr 2014, 11:37
Utd have always had a large overseas following. I remember back in the 70s when we were in the 2nd division you would regularly see banners from foreign supporters clubs hung around the stands.

As someone who goes on a reasonably regular basis you see it in the crowd every home game,the stands are an interesting mix of regulars and visitors from further afield, I know there is a large following from Ireland over every home game (as there is at Liverpool too) Cant remember which paper ran it but there was a survey about which team had the best local support and Utd came out top but does it really matter? I have many animated discussions with fans from other teams who have never even seen their own ground let alone team play but thats football for you.

racedo
26th Apr 2014, 12:01
For the first time since the first few games of the season I am hopeful of seeing United playing the strong attacking style again in the last 4 games of the season.

Me too.

Giggs has nothing to lose as they say he is not being considered for the role.
Fast attacking expansive football, don't care if we win or lose long as its fast attacking.

racedo
26th Apr 2014, 12:11
As someone who goes on a reasonably regular basis you see it in the crowd every home game,the stands are an interesting mix of regulars and visitors from further afield, I know there is a large following from Ireland over every home game (as there is at Liverpool too) Cant remember which paper ran it but there was a survey about which team had the best local support and Utd came out top but does it really matter? I have many animated discussions with fans from other teams who have never even seen their own ground let alone team play but thats football for you. Couple of months ago was at Gatwick late one Friday dropping a friend off, met 2 Norwegians who were a bit lost which bus to catch. Walked them to their bus stop and they were over to see Liverpool v Crystal Palace, game was in LIVERPOOL. They came over regularly for 20 plus years and saw 10-15 games a year. Also they had to get connecting flights in Norway and neither lived close to airports.

We did talk of most famous Norwegian footballer who visited Barcelona in May 99.

Ancient Observer
26th Apr 2014, 13:31
If the Manure continue to play badly, then all of their Surrey based fans are cordially invited to come along to watch London Scottish.

A real sport for real people.

The catering for "entertainment" at London Scottish makes the prawn sandwiches at Manure's ground as mouldy as they are. All fresh at London Scottish.

Rob Courtney
26th Apr 2014, 14:01
The catering for "entertainment" at London Scottish makes the prawn sandwiches at Manure's ground as mouldy as they are. All fresh at London Scottish.

Been going for 30 years and never seen a prawn sandwich :E It wont really matter where Utd are in the table the Old Trafford will always be full. I went to the Paul Scholes testimonial a couple of years ago and there was 75,000 there, last year Utd legends v Real Madrid Legends got 56,000

This year has been disappointing I think I saw the writing on the wall at the WBA home game, it was clear then that the tactics where wrong, not there today but at the last 2 home games and really looking forward to seeing the old Utd again.