Ljubljana air crash 1966

[Woodcote]

Hello everyone. I came across your forum whilst doing some research on the Ljubljana air crash of 1966. The aircraft was a Bristol 175 Britannia 102 operated by Britannia Airways, registration G-ANBB. My aunt was, I believe, an air hostess on that flight and was tragically one of the casualties, and as a complete newbie to this field could anyone advise me how I might find out more information or a list of crew. I was only 12 at the time and it all rather passed me by, but now I want to find out more about this. Many thanks in advance.

[Brian Abraham]

An article 1968 | 1853 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%201853.html)

Official report seems to be available Report on the Accident to Britannia G-ANBB at Ljubljana, Yugoslavia on 1st ... - Great Britain. Board of Trade, H.M.S.O. - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Report_on_the_Accident_to_Britannia_G_AN.html?id=U28QMwEACAA J&redir_esc=y)

[BEagle]

In simple terms, the crew had set their altimeters to a datum which indicated altitude above mean sea level (QNH), rather than the datum which indicates height above touchdown(QFE).

Due to the terrain elevation, they were much closer to the ground than they thought they were; descending to a cleared height above touchdown with the wrong datum meant that the aircraft flew into the ground under control.

In those days, neither radio altimeters nor ground proximity warning systems (GPWS) were fitted to such aircraft.

Nowadays, the approach is flown using QNH and GPWS is a mandatory requirement. The controller will also have a direct indication of the aircraft's altitude from secondary surveillance radar information transmitted automatically by the aircraft.

[Discorde]

Incredible that QFE is still in use by some pilots. The dangers of QFE usage were discussed in this thread (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/368781-qfe-who-needs-regional-altimeter-setting-ditto.html).

[22/04]

Not only some pilots but the Royal Air Force I believe

[Sir George Cayley]

I 'spotted' NBB at Ringway in the 60's and remember well the news it has crashed.

Start of a journey of realisation that not everything that took off came back.

SGC

[thing]

Incredible that QFE is still in use by some pilots. Don't know where you are located but in my experience if you radio for airfield info they will pass you the the runway in use and QFE. Don't think I've ever been passed QNH. Having said that I agree with you, be a lot easier just to stick to one system, and 22/04 is right, the RAF always use QFE.

[Discorde]

When passed QFE by ATC I do not read it back. If challenged I reply (courteously) 'using QNH and field elevation'. For MATZ transit I read back the clearance as given (including QFE) but fly the transit on QNH + field elevation, rounded up or down to the nearest 100 ft.

[BEagle]

Discorde wrote:

For MATZ transit I read back the clearance as given (including QFE) but fly the transit on QNH + field elevation, rounded up or down the the nearest 100 ft.

Why do you find it so difficult to transit using the pressure datum passed by the MATZ controller?

:rolleyes:

[Discorde]

Why do you find it so difficult to transit using the pressure datum passed by the MATZ controller?

The procedure I described avoids the potential hazard of mis-setting the altimeter subscale prior to MATZ entry and again on exiting.

[Airbanda]

When did commercial/public transport stop using QFE?

My recollection as an airband listener in the seventies, mostly at Leeds/Bradford, was that aircraft were initially descended to altitudes on QNH after handover from Manchester but transitioned to QFE/height before intercepting localiser and glideslope. These would be BA Viscounts, Air Anglia Friendships and Dan-Air 748s

If SRA was in use clearance was given to 1500 feet QFE for runway 33 with further descent from 5 miles on a 3degree g/s. For runway 15 height to 5 miles was greater as the slope was 3.25degrees due terrain clearance. In either case check heights were given along with vectors as the approach continued.

I guess one factor now is that radio altimeter will give precise height during the final approach.

While QNH only seems fine for 2 crew commercial operation with SoP's etc in force I'm still not convinced I'd want to use it solo in a light/micro. Rather know where I am wrt elevation of base/destination runway. Mentally adding six hundred and something for Leeds (or four hundred or so for Sywell) just seems unnecessary effort/complication.

[fa2fi]

Americans use QNH for all approaches, and it does them no harm. I prefer QNH day to day (it's not hard to work out your height above TDZE when you have the evelevation listed on every IAC). The only time I preferred the use of QFE was circuit training as it's easier for people to work things out using big round number such as 500' or 1000'. It's one thing less for them to try and work out.

[124brat]

See:
ASN Aircraft accident Bristol 175 Britannia 102 G-ANBB Ljubljana-Brnik Airport (LJU) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19660901-0)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Airways_Flight_105

and

1968 | 1853 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%201853.html)

[peter666]

Hi,

I may be able to give you some information although it is well documented as to likely cause etc.

As for other crew members, this would typically only be obtainable from press reports since I imagine the information might be restricted or simply unavailable now.

However, the First Officer was a highly skilled pilot who, from age of 21 years, was a POW for three years and won high praise after the war was over for managing to land a military aircraft which had only one wheel down on approach. Beyond that, it would only be personal stuff which I doubt is relevant to your enquiry. He was my father and left three young boys, of which I was the youngest, at three. Pilot error was concluded and the evidence seemed clear cut by the settings of both altimeters. My family never truly recovered from the horror of that day and, no doubt, nor did many of the other families. This has been difficult to write but I hope I have been some help.

Peter

[Sir George Cayley]

Peter 666, I can well imagine this sort of family tragedy casts a very long shadow, so thank you for your post which sheds further light on the crash.

Looking at the pax manifest it appears that 18 passengers and one crew member survived. I wonder if any of them could be traced and their experience of the night recorded?

Britannias remain one of my favourite airliners.

SGC

[Herod]

Airbanda. When did commercial/public transport stop using QFE

AirUK stopped the use of QFE with the introduction of the Fokker 100 in 1992. Two reasons. Firstly the rate of climb of a jet, which on departure or go-around can easily bust levels without very quick changes in settings. Secondly, on the F100 the electronic flight instruments had one push-button to change from QNH to STD and vice-versa. Using QFE would just add another potential SNAFU into the operation.

[exeng]

Peter thanks for that post. Terrible that you lost your Dad under those circumstances.

None of us will ever know what went on between the crew members on that fateful day. It is easy to say that both altimeters were miset which is clearly factual.

However the reasons behind that altimeter miset are something that we now will never know.

Your Dad defended his country in time of war (as did mine) and for that we should be very proud of their bravery and achievements.

Flying aircraft in those days was not quite the piece of cake it is these days. Some will disagree with that statement but I stand by it.


Kind regards
Exeng

[Stuche]

My great uncle Stan was an engineer on this flight and died when the plane went down his But wish was to see England win the World Cup which he saw about a month before the crash

[Sir George Cayley]

Interesting resurrection of a long forgotten thread.

Can you give more details of his flying career, how he came to be on the fateful flight?

SGC

[Woodcote]

Hello, I have just revisited this thread that I started last year and I'd just like to thank everyone for their replies and information, especially Peter and Stuche who also lost relatives. It must have been difficult for you and I appreciate it.

[rog747]

reading the flight international report 1968 it confirms all 3 cockpit ALT's were not set at the airfield QFE passed by the controller and the crew did not read back to him an acknowledgement of that QFE as was required in the UK.(?)

the graphs in the report below shows the QNH settings used and the obvious outcome not using QFE
no flight recorder was fitted back then

page 1
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%201853.html

page 2
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%201854.html

it was a VFR app (?)
they had the runway insight 12 miles out but had no other visual ground references apart from that...
with that in mind they (the crew) may have been (too?) comfortable with the fact that they had the runway insight ahead but with the QFE not correctly set to give them the correct height AGL they slipped under the runway height and undershot into the trees just over a mile out which they could not see in-front of them in the darkness.
Had the crew seemingly failed to cross-check altimeters?
one of the last radio transmissions from the Capt though was ''give us radar''

quote from a news report.
One of the air hostesses named as a survivor is Miss Joan
Chapman, of Harpenden in Hertfordshire. A second hostess, Miss
Joan Elizabeth Falla, was not on the list of survivors. Mr. Edward Heath,
the Opposition leader, sent his sympathies to her relatives -
she looked after Mr. Heath on his trip to south east Asia in January.

i remember studying the accident well although only a lad as Britannia's were very interesting to me as my first flights were on both British Eagle and Britannia Airways Britannia's since 1964 to go on my holidays.
our neighbours were waiting at the airport for this aircraft to board it to go home after their Universal Skytours holiday...their friends were on board the ill-fated flight and did not survive.
they just said they smelt smoke as they were outside on the terrace waiting but did not see or hear anything. i think they were sent home eventually by coaches to Venice then flown home from there.

A Britannia was sent out from LTN to LJU then next day with BY management and engineers on board.
Survivors were eventually flown home on a BY Brit to LTN.

there is a very interesting account of survivors and Britannia management from an ITN news (transcript only) of a news film but i cannot find the actual clip
'BRITANNIA' CRASH IN YUGOSLAVIA (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1966/09/01/T01096601/?s=)

actual typed notes of the newsroom transcript by an ITN reporter
http://jiscmediahub.ac.uk/mediaContent/open/scripts/1966/19660901_LE_01_ITV.pdf


Pathe News clip of the crash site https://youtu.be/xcEW6hGIugI


ICAO crash report PDF download file summary page 124 onwards - other accidents summarised too -
mid.gov.kz/images/stories/contents/088_vol_2_en.pdf