Channel 4 Programme on Tirpitz Sinking

[Buster11]

In case you haven't spotted it, Channel 4 has a rather good programme on the sinking of Tirpitz here: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-dambusters-great-escape-secret-history/4od.

At the risk of repeating a cliche, what a generation.

[maxburner]

A very good programme it was! The footage taken on the raid was remarkable. You have to have some sympathy for the poor guys aboard the ship when the 12,000 pound bomb hit.

[Wensleydale]

The footage was taken from Lancaster PD329 JO-Y of 463 Sqn, RAF Waddington, flown by Flt Lt Bruce Buckham. 463 Sqn hosted the 5 Group Photographic Film Unit and possessed 3 modified Lancasters with extra filming positions. Some brave cameramen went along to film many of the daylight raids (and some night ones) during the war, and much of the airborne film seen today about Lancaster bombing raids was taken by these Waddington crews.


One of the filming pilots was Flt Lt Tottenham whose name appears on an engine nacelle of PO-S in the RAF Museum at Hendon. He was killed on 26 September 1944 while on a photographic mission on a daylight raid over German gun positions near Calais in support of attacking ground units. Having just completed his first tour on 467 Sqn (where he was one of "Sugar's" regular pilots) he was flying his second mission of his second tour when he and his crew died. This mission was not recorded in the 463 Sqn F541 (Tottenham's aircraft is often erroneously listed as lost during a raid on Karlesruhr).

[sandozer]

Enjoyed the program, and amazed at the accuracy of the bombing considering the technology that was available then. Anyone know which variant of Bombsight computer was used on the raid?
The first "computer" I worked on after joining the RAF was the T-3 Bombsight computer and can recall it had ballistic setting data for Lancaster, Stirling and many other WW2 bombers on the inside of the main cover. I would imagine it would have been an earlier mark, maybe the T1 or T2?
It was an amazing piece of kit to see operating, it had a slow cyclic movement oscillating around 1 hz from what I remember.

[Wensleydale]

The computer used was the Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight - a more accurate form of the Norden bomb sight that was used for daylight raids by the USAAF during the War. This bomb sight was issued to specialist units such as IX and 617 Squadrons to allow them to drop their single big bombs with more accuracy. The usual main force bomb sight at this time was the Mk XIV which was excellent for use during night bombing but not as accurate during daylight. The T1 series of sights were developed for use post war as the Lancaster sights were not deemed suitable for the faster aircraft that came along later (and eventually replaced by radar bombing systems).

[Wander00]

Ok, stupid question of the day- why should a bomb sight be more accurate by night than by day? My simple mind cannot understand the logic of that.

[just another jocky]

This looked like a recently produced programme and I thought it did a good job of recounting the events. Of course, historical accuracy is always a contentious issue and I don't think 9 Sqn or their association will be too pleased with almost all the emphasis going to 617 Sqn.

However, it is indeed a remarkable feat to drop bombs ballistically from 15,000ft and score direct hits on 3 out of the first 5 bombs.

The new(?) information regarding the fighter wing at Bardufoss & the English-sympathising German radar officer was very enlightening and just proves how close we came to disaster but for a few other minor events.

[Wensleydale]

Ok, stupid question of the day- why should a bomb sight be more accurate by night than by day? My simple mind cannot understand the logic of that.

Probably my bad use of English... the Mk XIV was equally accurate during night and day and was designed for dropping sticks and clusters of weapons at night when main force was bombing visually on flares often dropped by use of electronic targeting aids - quantity of bombs on target area over quality of aiming was the order of the day (think shotgun). Something more accurate was needed for single bombs in daylight and hence the use of the SABS for this tasking. No doubt, cost, rate of manufacture, and ease of setting up the sight was also a factor in which system to use, although I believe that targets were more difficult to find when using SABS at night. Also note that both bomb sights were integrated into the aircraft systems and could not be easily transferred - hence their use by just IX and 617 as the 2 precision bombing squadrons in their "special" modified Lancasters.

[Wander00]

Wensleydale - very many thanks. W

[Basil]

Seems to have been a German comms screw-up followed by a lack of urgency getting fighters airborne to intercept the final and successful raid - phew! ;)

[Fg Off Bloggs]

JAJ,

This looked like a recently produced programme and I thought it did a good job of recounting the events

Definitely recently produced as Phil Tetlow (WOP/AG from 9 Sqn), the guy with the sense of humour, was just recounting his Tirpitz experiences, and the filming, to us at last month's ACA meeting in Nottingham. Unfortunately, the edit cut out the bit about the landing conditions when the Lancs arrived at the FOB in Russia before the first raid. Evidently horrendous, many aircraft did not 'make it' and many were forced to turn back and/or seek an alternative landing site. So not quite as portrayed by Channel 4 but a good documentary nonetheless.

Bloggs:ok:

[sandozer]

"The computer used was the Stabilized Automatic Bomb Sight - a more accurate form of the Norden bomb sight that was used for daylight raids by the USAAF during the War. This bomb sight was issued to specialist units such as IX and 617 Squadrons to allow them to drop their single big bombs with more accuracy. The usual main force bomb sight at this time was the Mk XIV which was excellent for use during night bombing but not as accurate during daylight. The T1 series of sights were developed for use post war as the Lancaster sights were not deemed suitable for the faster aircraft that came along later (and eventually replaced by radar bombing systems)."

Thank you Wensleydale for the comprehensive answer, must see what I can find on the MK xiv sight, very capable as was proven.

[sandozer]

A quick Google finds this excellent view of the T1-A Bombing computer linked to a MKXIV bombsight. Could this setup have been used on the Tirpitz?

That T1-A computer looks very similar to the T-3.

Glenn's Computer Museum (http://www.glennsmuseum.com/bombsights/sperry_t1a.html)

[Wensleydale]

The standard bomb sight at the start of the war was the Mk IX Course Setting Bomb Sight. All parameters (aircraft speed; height; bomb type; wind velocity etc) had to be manually set by the Bomb Aimer. The aircraft had to set a steady heading and the bomb sight could not cope with any aircraft manoeuvre on the bombing run. Later marks had an attachment for moving targets such as shipping.


The Mk XIV had many advantages - the main one being that aircraft movement was automatically fed from the aircraft's instrument system into a bombing computer that gave an output for the bomb sight leaving just 3 parameters for the bomb aimer to enter into the computer. This computer then fed an illuminated line onto a piece of gyro-stabilised Perspex in the bomb sight which the bomb aimer used to line up the target (think of the spitfire gyro-stabilised gun sight but as a straight line). Being stabilised, the bomb sight could cope with a certain amount of aircraft manoeuvre on the run in - a distinct advantage when running through a flak box! The disadvantage with the Mk XIV sight was that any damage to the aircraft systems could lead to loss of the entire system, in which case the bomb-aimer was issued with a "wiz-wheel" type computer (similar idea to the circular slide rule on the Nav Computer) which would allow him to either set up for a purely visual drop or indeed give a "dive-bombing" angle for the pilot to assist hitting the target!


A Google search gives lots of info and images of the various sights.


Edited to add... the Mk XIV bombsight and associated computer was the complete system - I am not sure if the bomb computers for the Mk XIV could also be used with the SABS sight and vice versa but I think that it is unlikely in which case the SABS sights fitted to the Lancaster specials flown by 617 and IX would have had their own specific computer.

[Dr Jekyll]

Did the bomb aimer have to aim directly at the target? Or was it possible to apply some kind of offset so the aimer could line up on something easy to pick out and the bombs would actually be aimed at the real target several hundred yards away?

[Wensleydale]

No offset (unlike the Vulcan H2S radar bombing system). The projected lines formed a cross on the Perspex plate. The bomb aimer talked the pilot to fly the aircraft along the fore/aft line (track) and released his bombs when the crossing line met the target. The bombing computer took care of the effects of wind, altitude, bomb type etc leaving the bomb aimer free to concentrate on the aircraft heading.

[Chugalug2]

It seems to me that it isn't so much the accuracy of the bombsight used on the raid that is significant, but the German fighters based at Bardufuss in order to intercept raids on the Tirpitz. "But they didn't Holmes". "Precisely, Watson, precisely!".

Lt Carl Heinrich Vesna (Sp?) was i/c the inland facing Wasserman Radar positioned to detect a follow up raid using the same technique of coasting in further south, entering neutral Swedish airspace, then attacking Tirpitz from the East. The programme suggests that it was not until Tirpitz itself detected the raid and alerted Bardufoss, an hour after the initial radar contact, that fighters were scrambled. Even then they were held for an inbound Ju52! By the time they got to Tromso the Tirpitz was sunk and the Lancs just gone.

Patrick Bishop suggests that Vesna was part of the German Resistance and deliberately sabotaged the Tirpitz's defence, hence saving the stripped out Lancasters of IX and 617 Squadrons, and instead enabled the destruction of the Tirpitz and 1000 members of its crew. How do we feel about that? What does the present German population think about that? Sobering thoughts indeed!

BTW, repeated tonight (Monday) at 1900 Hrs.

[Captain Radar....]

Definitely worth watching. Apart from the interest most of us here would have in the challenge of getting there and conducting the attacks, the description of the Tirpitz crew members trapped in the space with the tide rising is chilling and thought provoking, as are the last few seconds of the whole programme, when the German Me 109 pilot reveals his still deeply felt emotions on what he had to do at such a young age. (I think he was a 109 pilot but someone will probably shoot me down if you'll excuse the expression, they did use pictures of a FW190).

Incidentally, for those who have wandered the streets of Andoya with an expensive hangover looking for something to do there is a bit of nostalgia as they pay a visit to interview a resident.

[MPN11]

Was a good programme. Apart from the "Bloody Hell, you brave and talented sods" that is a given, I was amazed that the raid violated neutral Sweden - that was a jaw-dropping moment. Were they given DipClear, or just said "Sod the Swedes"?

[PapaDolmio]

I got the impression that the programme was a bit rushed and left out a lot of important information. I've had an interest in Turpitz since visiting the Turpitz museum at Tromso while on Det a few years ago. The biggest omission in my view was that when Turpitz was finally sunk it was already considered to be unseaworthy by the German Navy and was only moved to Tromso to be used as a fixed coastal defence battery.
The damage caused by the previous raid was such that after the bow was patched up at Alta the ship was only able to move at 10knots to its new berth at Tromso. Once at Tromso there was no intention for the ship to move. This was completely ignored in the programme but is in Patrick Bishops book.
While the technical details of the raid were fascinating, and the bravery of the crews on both sides never in doubt, by the time of the sinking Turpitz was of very little strategic relevance.
Remember, by that stage of the war the Red Army was already in Poland and the western allies were closing up to the Rhine. Whatever the Turpitz did would not affect the outcome.
Of course hindsight is a luxury we can afford!

[Tourist]

Papa

Not so rushed that they forgot how to spell Tirpitz though.


Strategic relevance is not based on actual capability so much as perceived capability.
If we didn't know it was useless, we had to treat it as if it were useful.

[PapaDolmio]

Exactly, the perceived threat was there without doubt. What would have been more tragic would have been if the 109's/190's had got in amongst the Lancs and it subsequently turned out to be for nothing.
Just thought it could have been told better, especially since the author was involved.

Apologies for the spelling by the way.

[Chugalug2]

PD, I've no doubt that what you say is right, but hindsight is not really the point is it? This mission was incredibly dangerous and by rights should have ended in disaster, not for the Kriegsmarine, but for the Royal Air Force. That it didn't can be easily forgotten in the rightful pride that IX and 617 Sqns feel for the amazing feat that they pulled off (in equal measure!).

Perhaps though it is time to confront that mystery and ask why it was that the raid confronted no resistance save from the Tirpitz itself. Now, one could take the view that it is the opinion of one man in Andoya and of the Walt that used to employ him in his radar installation. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying, CR, as your last sentence was a little too obtuse for me to comprehend.

There was a dilemma though for the likes of Lt Vesna (sp?). He was seemingly a Norgephile, speaking the language fluently and writing post war to the local paper in explanation of his actions, and perhaps even an Anglophile. Yet the war had bypassed Norway which was under the command of a Reichskommissar bent on making Norway a centre of Nazi resistance, thanks to the considerable number of SS troops stationed there. For less fanatical Germans like the good Lt and his like minded comrades this was a disastrous prospect, and the sooner that the war was lost the better could have been their conclusion.

At any rate, if there be any truth in Patrick Bishop's contention then we must surely owe it to Lt Vesna to consider it, for if it be true then he was a very brave man, especially given the dreadful revenge wrought by Hitler after the June 1944 attempt on his life.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Perhaps just me - and the fact that ABTF was just on the tele - but I thought that the 109 pilot looked the spitting image of Dirk Bogarde!

Excellent programme.

Duncs:ok:

[Flash2001]

Yeahbut... My simple understanding is that although damaged beyond practical repair, with machinery thrown out of line etc. The British didn't know it and therefore, to them, Tirpitz still remained a "fleet in being". I have heard that the crew that hit her on the bows with a tallboy was not believed when they claimed the hit.

After an excellent landing etc...

[P6 Driver]

I was surprised to hear the bomb used described as a precision one, early in the programme.

[Icanseeclearly]

Interesting programme

What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.

Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?

[skua]

That was Tony Iveson.

[Hipper]

It's an interesting point about our intelligence of the situation of Tirpitz. PRU activity, Enigma decrypts and Norwegian resistance reports kept us reasonably well informed on the German big ships. In addition the departure of the Admiral and his staff could have been noticed by signals intelligence.


Her being shifted to Tromso from further north must surely be considered a retreat as her purpose in Kaafjord (and nearly all German surface navy activity so far in Norway) was to interfere with the Russian convoys. Dredging work took place at her new berth in order to prevent the ship capsizing, which could have been noticed by the Norwegians and perhaps by the PRU. Furthermore I don't think Tirpitz was provided with any destroyer escorts in the vicinity which would suggest at least she wasn't ready for sea.


No matter, the deed had to be done.


Here's Tirpitz on the way to Tromso with a black/grey/white camouflage.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2cn78z5.jpg


This picture comes from this site:


German Navy in World War 2 - Kriegsmarine | World War Photos (http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/kriegsmarine/)

[Hipper]

My simple understanding is that although damaged beyond practical repair, with machinery thrown out of line etc. The British didn't know it and therefore, to them, Tirpitz still remained a "fleet in being". I have heard that the crew that hit her on the bows with a tallboy was not believed when they claimed the hit.

There was apparently a Norwegian report at the time that said the ship had been hit in the bows but the extent of the damage wasn't known.

[Flying Lawyer]

What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.

Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?

As skua says, that was Thomas Clifford (Tony) Iveson.

He was a sergeant pilot on 616 Squadron when he flew during the Battle of Britain - and survived ditching in the North Sea in September 1940. He was posted to 92 Squadron the following month and spent some time in Rhodesia as an Instructor.
He was commissioned in May 1942, joined 617 Squadron in 1944 and promoted to Squadron Leader later in the same year.
In his own words: 'I believe fighter and bomber pilots were different types, not that everyone was given the choice. In my opinion ace fighter pilots are born not made although, of course, any pilot can be trained to be a reasonable fighter boy.

I discovered my temperament was more that of a bomber pilot. A fighter pilot is a loner and a good one is a natural aerobatic flyer - another term is 'split-arse' - and a natural deflective shot. A bomber pilot has responsibility for his crew and the need to get to the target and put his bombs on the right spot. It requires more precise flying over longer periods.'

On his last operational Lancaster flight, in 1945, his aircraft was badly damaged by a German fighter over Bergen. Three of his seven crew bailed out, believing they were about to crash. He managed to fly the damaged aircraft back to the UK and made an emergency landing on Shetland, for which he was awarded the DFC.

He was inspirational and impressive speaker in support of the Bomber Command Memorial, and had no time for what he called 'self-appointed armchair historians' who criticise Bomber Command ops: "After the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, in which 43,000 civilians were killed and many more injured, Bomber Command began taking the air war from over the rooftops of London and other British cities into the skies over Germany.
Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."


I last saw him during lunch at the RAF Club following the 2013 Battle of Britain memorial service at Westminster Abbey. He was clearly very ill and, I'm told, knew it was the last time he'd see some of his old friends. He passed away about six weeks later.



Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund - A Battle of Britain pilot remembers (http://www.rafbf.org/76-2239/a-battle-of-britain-pilot-remembers.html)

FL

[Hangarshuffle]

I was in the bar of the Auldgarth Inn after a days fishing and I got talking to a lad who was once a shepard up in the Cheviots. He said theres a Lanc and a B17 up there, crashed like. In the summer the peat dries out and the planes rise. In the wet they sink back.
I've heard the Lanc had bullet holes in it later identified as that of the .303 type. Was coming back on a raid from Norway but spanked into the big hill between there and its base.
Explain.
Gunners opened up on themselves? Mis-identified by RAF NF and shot down, or damaged and then in-directly shot down? Cook off from rounds? Just an average young tired wartime aircrew, who screwed up and who flew in?
All true? RIP.
Bomber Harris, rot in hell.

[Chugalug2]

Bomber Harris, rot in hell.
Ah, you must be from the British Establishment! Welcome, we are indeed honoured by your presence.

[500N]

Hangar

Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."

Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.

I know he generated controversy but care to explain ???

[Bronx]

Ah, you must be from the British Establishment!
No, just he's just a guy with a chip about the military. His career in the Royal Navy didn't go well and he was far down the food chain for the great majority of it.

Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."
Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.As seen in previous posts he doesn't miss a chance to have a go at the RAF.
When the famous 617 Squadron was disbanded he posted "We don't need squadrons of bleating crabs blethering about the old days!! Get up and get jobs in civvy street. Do you all good for a change."


Great quote about the crucial role of Bomber Command in post 31. :ok:
"After the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, in which 43,000 civilians were killed and many more injured, Bomber Command began taking the air war from over the rooftops of London and other British cities into the skies over Germany.

Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."That's the truth of it.

When the danger's over some folks like to rewrite history.

[500N]

Bronx

Thanks. I withdraw my question !
Inter service banter is one thing .............

listening to what my Grand mother (and mother) and the rest of the family went through, I have no qualms about the war being taken to Germany.
The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level- just before he got blown out of the sky by the Ack Ack gun at the end of the street !!!) and week after week had bombs, V1's and V2's fall on civilian areas so I don't blame them for doing likewise. I would.

To wake up in the morning to find the house just behind you had vanished, family included, all the windows of your house blown in, and as my mother said, the Fish tank glass shattered and the water and fish all over the floor. Yep, really going to win the war by targeting civilians, all it did was give plenty of people, especially my grand mother a pathological hatred of the Germans !

[NutLoose]

It really annoys me when so called experts, and we're normally talking journalist or historians sit on their fat comfortable arses enjoying the comfortable life and freedoms that those serving during the war brought them, then berate all of the actions like the bombing policies of Harris or anything else that took place, but if one of those actions saved even a single life at home or in the services, it was worth it in my eyes.
I weep for the likes of those that suffered the death marches, punishment by the Japanese and Germans during the war to rid of us of the evil that existed, I would like to tear one of these hypocrites from their comfortable lives and throw them into the likes of a Burma prison camp. And let us see how long their views lasted.

[500N]

Nutloose

Agree totally.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level

500N. Can you recall or know the date of that incident? A rough date will do. Although in the mists of time.....the type of the aircraft would certainly help.

I ask because of a similar incident I recall. They might, just might, be related. Indeed, it would be astonishing if they were.

PPP

[500N]

PPRuNe Pop

Firstly, I saw you had posted and thought, "oh no, here comes another warning to cool it and another thread ban" :O

Secondly, I have posted about it on here before because a couple of people corrected me and said it couldn't have been a Stuka.

Re the incident, I can get my mother to ask her sister / my aunt what year.

I can tell you that I think they were walking up the street they live in and the German flew over the Ack Ack gun which was on the grassed area at the end of the street as my grand mother received a phone call to say "We got him for you".

To be confirmed but I think the street they lived in was Upfield St, off Addiscombe Road, Croydon. The surname of Granter. I think the house that collected the bomb behind / near them was in Fitzjames Avenue. I think the gun was located on the Shirley Park Golf course.

Now that is from memory so let me check the details !!!

BTW, in case any of you were wondering, the bullets went either side of my grand mother and her daughter and neither were injured (my grand mother hit the deck on top of her daughter) but she remembers looking and seeing the pilots face he was that low :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Pop]

No no ;) - thanks for getting in touch so soon.

I'll give you a clue I lived then about 1.5 miles from Croydon I was at a school which is about the same distance. I still live in the area but a couple of miles further to the west.

The German aircraft will be of great interest too, if the type is known.

PPP

[Wensleydale]

If you check out this web site - it gives details of all of the German raids during the battle including units where known - then you may find the low raid on Croyden.


List of Website Contents (http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/contents-index.html)

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thanks Wensleydale. A very good reference. I was both excited, and frightened, as a 10 year old boy able to see the BoB relevant to my overhead view so close to Croydon. However the incident that 500N has mentioned, for me, would have been in 1941 while I was in the juniors at school.

I wait with great interest, which could possibly help to solve a 74 year old mystery.

PPP

[500N]

PPRuNe Pop

I reckon you would have been the same age as my Uncle or Aunt during the war. Geoffrey or Bromwyn Granter ? Any recall ?

1941 sounds about right.


Here is a question for you. Did you used to watch the V1's coming and then run like hell or stay and watch depending on when the engine started spluttering, run if it started to splutter as it was coming towards you or stay and watch if it was still motoring along.

You know you can never picture your parents as being anything but parents, well always used to laugh at the fact that out of the 3 children, my mother could beat everyone down from the top of the Cherry Tree in the back garden where they used to watch them to the Anderson Shelter :rolleyes:

[Wander00]

500N - Parents as you see them? As I get older, I find it increasingly difficult to reconcile the image of the Dad I knew, and the guy on top of a 100ft turntable ladder in the London blitz, or my Mother (5' 2" and would blow away in a strong breeze) as a firewatcher and extinguisher of incendiary bombs!

[PPRuNe Pop]

500N. I have thought about this a lot and I think I can safely say that the German aircraft was a Ju 88. It was at about 100 feet at the time and came over our school playground and started firing as it flew away over a very high oak tree. No one was hurt or killed.

In 1940 the 88 only had one gun that fired upwards. It was in 1941 they fitted two machine guns in either side of the fuselage. Raising the crew from two to four - three were gunners. It was one or both that was firing at us. It can only have a very short burst(s) because the tree had to be negotiated. 2, maybe 3 seconds - that would be quite a few rounds but fortunately they didn't harm us. There was no fear as I recall - it was too exciting to us 10 year olds.

The heading of the 88 (now I have worked it out) would have taken it directly to Croydon and the surrounding area. Addiscombe would be passed around a max of 2 minutes later on the same heading and about 1/4 mile north of Croydon airfield. I have always wondered what happened to the 88 now I feel I do know. After all this time! If available I would like some details please.

As to your next question about the V1's. In July 1944 my mother my sister and I were walking from shopping for what was available and had to pass St. Helier Hospital, Carshalton. Surrey. We had reached a point in line with the middle of the hospital when we suddenly heard the sound of a V1. As we looked up for it, it's engine stopped and we had to run to the entrance of a nearby shelter (75 yards or so) the bomb exploded and caused us to tumble down the slope into the shelter. My mother had bad grazes as did my sister and I got a bad bang on an elbow.

We came out a few minutes later to see what had happened. Where it exploded there was a doctor residence. Behind it were nurses quarters now called Ferguson House. The face of the building had enormous lumps of cladding made of cement blown from it, all the glass had blown inwards as had local houses roughly within a radius 500 yards in every direction. The crater was not very deep but, of course, it relied mostly on its blast effect. No-body was killed there either, although some received some serious injuries.

I did have ONE very narrow escape when I stupidly went to pick up what turned out to be a 'butter fly bomb'. A policeman saw my intent and shouted louder than anyone has EVER shouted before!! I think. Another time was when two or three of us climbed a tree to see if we get some parachute cord off mine that was hanging unexploded! I got caned by the head for that one!!

Within two weeks of the V1 incident my mother evacuated us all up to Derby and six months later we came home to V2's. The nearest explosion to us was in Tooting, South London. About 5 miles away.

That Ju 88 incident has haunted me all this time and I would like to know where it was shot down. In those early days of the war we did have mobile Bofors guns in the streets. Good morale boosters for sure.

We also had a battery of 4.7 inch guns on an emplacement on Mitcham Common, very noisy almost every night during the blitz. They were about a mile away.

PPP

[500N]

PPRuNe

Well, isn't that interesting. If you were shot at by the same aircraft, that would be a coincidence.

My mother is in the UK at the moment - with her brother - so am awaiting an email back but it might be a few days.

My GM was very firm on being able to see the pilots face (? a face ?) as she looked up as it went past. Need to check if this is possible in a Ju 88.

I wonder if any records exist of Ju 88's or other German aircraft shot down over Croydon at that time. I would also like to know. Maybe finding out where the guns were might help as well.

I gather collecting shrapnel was every kids activity but as you found out, all was not the same. Glad you survived :ok:

Close one with the V1 and you obviously didn't get much warning with that one !

[Landroger]

We also had a battery of 4.7 inch guns on an emplacement on Mitcham Common, very noisy almost every night during the blitz. They were about a mile away.


My dad came home from the RAF where he spent his entire service doing specialised navigator training, was demobbed after VJ day and thus I was born at the end of 1946 so, unable to contribute directly.

However, I used to play on the emplacements for those guns on Mitcham Common, but I always thought they were 3.7 inch guns? 4.7's were Naval guns surely? And they would be big guns for ack-ack.

Roger.

[500N]

Have a read of this.

Story of a 12 year old boy arnd London and he mentions the 3.7 inch guns

"Therefore I was out on the street in the dark, during an air raid with the 3.7 inch naval anti-aircraft (ack-ack) guns at Mitcham common gun site blazing away - a terrifying noise — which combined with the ‘blackout’ in full effect, was a unique experience for me. It meant, apart from being terrified, I could not see my way very well in the darkness, and had to rely upon my intimate geographical knowledge of the area, plus help from the searchlights which silhouetted buildings against the night sky, to make my way home."


BBC - WW2 People's War - WORLD WAR II RAMBLINGS - No.1. The BLITZ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/72/a8977972.shtml)

[PPRuNe Pop]

3.7 - 4.7 I will accept the former is correct.

PPP

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

May I say that I'm chuffed to nuts to see a PPRuNe Moderator engaging in total Thread drift. I bet the prospect of the TIRPITZ emulating De Reuter and sailing up the Thames was terrifying. :}

[phil9560]

My Dad collected shrapnel from a V2 which wiped out a street in Bury on Christmas Eve 1944.Sadly my Grandmother binned it.

[India Four Two]

Fascinating stuff.

Pop,

I hope you have watched "Danger UXB" and in particular, these two episodes:

"Butterfly Winter"
"Seventeen Seconds to Glory" about parachute mines

Danger UXB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_UXB)

[November4]

As to your next question about the V1's. In July 1944 my mother my sister and I were walking from shopping for what was available and had to pass St. Helier Hospital, Carshalton. Surrey. We had reached a point in line with the middle of the hospital when we suddenly heard the sound of a V1. As we looked up for it, it's engine stopped and we had to run to the entrance of a nearby shelter (75 yards or so) the bomb exploded and caused us to tumble down the slope into the shelter. My mother had bad grazes as did my sister and I got a bad bang on an elbow.

We came out a few minutes later to see what had happened. Where it exploded there was a doctor residence. Behind it were nurses quarters now called Ferguson House. The face of the building had enormous lumps of cladding made of cement blown from it, all the glass had blown inwards as had local houses roughly within a radius 500 yards in every direction. The crater was not very deep but, of course, it relied mostly on its blast effect. No-body was killed there either, although some received some serious injuries.


Don't know if you have seen this..

So far, donations have included photos depicting bomb damage from a V2 rocket during World War II and a visit to the nurses' school (formerly housed in the soon to be demolished Ferguson House) by Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother, in 1959.

Keep those memories of St Helier coming! (http://www.epsom-sthelier.nhs.uk/news/news-archive/2011/november-2011/keep-those-memories-of-st-helier-coming/)

http://www.epsom-sthelier.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=26116&type=full&servicetype=Inline

[500N]

Found this as well. It certainly seems to have copped it's fair share of hits.

"History of St Helier Hospital

St Helier has a rich history, starting in 1938 when Queen Mary laid the first foundation stone at the site.
The first patients were admitted in 1941 and the building was completed in 1942. The cost of the rent at the time was just £1 a year.


Sadly, less than a month after completion, the hospital was damaged by a bomb dropped during an air raid in World War Two.


Further damage was caused throughout the war, and the hospital was struck by two flying bombs in June 1944.


However, St Helier remained open and continued to grow after the War."

[joy ride]

I enjoyed this programme and even watched the repeat. A few flaws, of course, but very interesting and an amazing combination of skill, endurance, bravery and luck. Enemy or not, I did feel for the crew of the Tirpitz. To think that just 3 minutes difference and the Lancaster crews might have been decimated.

Thread drift!
A few years ago I bought a large photo re-print from the IWM of a Heinkel He 111 bomber over the Thames, partly because it's a favourite plane, partly because I can just make out the roof of my building (which was badly damaged by a bomb), and partly because I have a Heinkel car, made in Croydon's Trojan factory which was also badly damaged by a bomb.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Tirpitz was it appears a victim of a German officer who delayed, in one form or another, informing the fighter at Bardufoss of the incoming Lancasters. And ATC allowed a Ju52 to land before allowing the fighters to take off! I find something odd about the story but it definitely saved the Lancasters from a pasting.

[India Four Two]

I've just watched the programme, courtesy of a proxy server and I thought it was quite well done, if perhaps a bit long. Too many moody shots of Norwegian fjords and silent close-ups of the veterans.

I thought they inferred too much from the picture of the Wasserman radar facing inland. It was stated that the picture was taken after the war and given that the aerial was rotatable through 360 degrees, there could be many reasons for the direction it was facing.

However, I did learn that the Wasserman was just a series of stacked Freya aerials, something I hadn't noticed that before.

[PAXboy]

just anoter jockyI don't think 9 Sqn or their association will be too pleased with almost all the emphasis going to 617 Sqn.I agree, but it's all about publicity to get people to watch the programme in the first place. :hmm:

India Four Two I thought they inferred too much from the picture of the Wasserman radar facing inland. It was stated that the picture was taken after the war and given that the aerial was rotatable through 360 degrees, there could be many reasons for the direction it was facing. Very much so! Likewise, the journalistic hype that, when the two fellows met the commentary was that '.. had nearly shot him down' which was not true. 'MIGHT have been involved in air combat' does not meet modern TV demands. Sadly. :sad:


Drift
As to the comments about Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet, GCB, OBE, AFC (13 April 1892 – 5 April 1984): We can never know what it was like then, or the human reactions of those people. The same goes for the wars waged in former times in the Americas (New World), Sub-Continent, Africa and the rest of the world.

My paternal grandparents were killed by a V2 landing in their back garden (Ashford, Middlesex) on 28th October 1944. Equally, my father assisted in the killing of German people. He always said that it was horrible and had to be done. After the war, he was insistent that we understood that the German people were good folk who had been led astray.

In the 1990s he despaired of the way that Blair, and other young political men like Bush, wanted to make war., "They have not seen it and they do not know - but they should ask their fathers and grandfathers."