Ryanair IOM-Reg Learjets...any FPL exemption?

[JanetFlight]

RMK: Topic moved from "Flight/Ground Ops, Crewing and Dispatch"

Hi All...during all these last years since IOM-Regs was created i've never have seen any deviation from the Typical IOM » "M"-reg planes regarding the FPL Field 4 (Type of Flight) wich was/is always filled as "G":

http://files.eurofpl.eu/originalfpl/pdfs/EuroFPL-ICAO_Flightplan_Form_Basics-latest.pdf

And:

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ded/aircraftRegistry/rp1checklistforregisteringaircr1.pdf

"1. Aircraft registered in the Isle of Man are onlyfor private and corporate use, not commercial airtransport or aerial work"

And at the Main IOM Law Itself:

PART 2
Prohibition of use for Public Transport or Aerial Work
5. Prohibition of use for public transport or aerial work :
Save in the case of a transfer of functions under Article 83 (bis) of the Chicago Convention, an aircraft registered in the Isle of Man shall not fly on any flight for the purpose of public transport or aerial work.

All "M" planes based from all over the world, operators even with AOCs, using 3 letter code callsigns, etc etc, as long as the FPL are filled with an M-regs, they are always be very careful in using "G" instead of a "S" or "N" , these two last ones lead us to an operator with an AOC/ACC/similar, (despite being Schedule, Non-Schedule, Taxi or similar, as long its engaged in CAT .)
NO M-reg plane could fly under any AOC or similar.
Even TNT Lears M-reg and Ryanair M-lears are all the time "G"...but there cames my doubt...:

These last days Ryanair "M-reg" Lears are flying with an "N"-Non Schedule Commercial/Public transportation along Europe, on their FPLs, instead of the usual and traditional "G".

Is this Legal?
AFAIK the RYR AOC doesnt include Lears neither IOM Policy allows M-ABEU to fly Non-Schedule Transport, cause the law basically remains as "No FPL with M-reg should be filled without a field 4 as "G".
Do they have any special authorization to fly under the AOC of RYR, issued by the IOM or Ireland, wich i think its not the case, cause RYR AOC only includes 737-800?
Or is the IOM changing, or even Eurocontrol not policing this item, or is it an operational bug // mistake?
Tanx for you inputs, cheers :)

ATT: This question is merely and entirely professional and operational...its NOT to say badthings about A or B!

[deefer dog]

I filed as a medical once. Got airborne and before 1000 feet was given "direct to destination."

Might need to do it again soon, so please Janet find a cure for your professional and operational curiosity. Let sleeping dogs lie.

[Globally Challenged]

We used to get call-sign confusion in the US as they kept referring to us as Lifeguard (which I think may be air ambulance over there) and had our best direct when passing 1500 out of KTEB with a direct KLAX

[long final]

If they are used for company business, not fare paying punters, no conflict with the IOM. AFAIK that is the case. Simple as that.

[Trim Stab]

I'm with long-final on this. I used to fly an M-reg company-owned Citation, which was used entirely for company business, and we always filed "N".

[JanetFlight]

I've learned to fill and interpret "N" only when the flight is being flown under any AOC, (and as long as the M-registered planes cannot fly under any AOC), the FPL should be filled as "G".
Company's Own-Private Business its not Non-Scheduled AirTransport neither "under" AOC operations. However thats an issue with the ATC and its FPL organizations/authorities, so may exist different interpretations as already expressed here.
Tanx for your opinions and infos.

[GlobalExpressDriver]

Much misinformation above.

I fly an M reg aircraft. We are private. We file as M-AAAA or M-BBBB depending on the day and aircraft.

No such thing as filing N or G.

However, we got many queries in US, OZ, HKG when we started up 6-7 years ago; "where" is M registry??? Where is the Isle of Man?

:O:O

[Opsbeatch]

'M' reg filed under 'N'...I smell ramp check all over that! :E

OB

[His dudeness]

We file as M-AAAA or M-BBBB depending on the day and aircraft.

No such thing as filing N or G.

? You don´t fill in the "type of flight" field or do you think these guys want you to file NMAAAA or GMBBBB ?

[Trim Stab]

M' reg filed under 'N'...I smell ramp check all over that!

Why do you say that? IOM register provided a "Certificate of Commerciality" as we provided evidence the aircraft is being used for genuine business reasons. We were thus flying non-scheduled commercial flight - hence N. We were never ramp checked as a result of what he had filed.

I am curious to know what you consider is correct use of "N", if not this case?

[Opsbeatch]

Hi Trim,

'N' as far as I know, is a non-scheduled commercial flight. Here is the grey area of a commercial flight, has money changed hands for that flight? If not surely it is private.

From the IoM website (Isle of Man Aircraft Registry - Ground Rules - Isle of Man Government DED (http://www.gov.im/ded/Aircraft/groundrules/?menuid=24202))
Aircraft registered on the Isle of Man are prohibited from conducting Public Transport / Commercial Air Transport or aerial work flights. In the event the Aircraft Registry finds evidence that this prohibition has been broken, we will have no hesitation in prosecuting the owner / operator.

Simple proceedure that I follow; has someone paid for the flight?
Yes = N
No = G

If this has changed then please please forward me to the regulation that allows this.

Just to state another point, if the flight was commercial then MOT & VAT would not be chargable on the fuel, however I do not know of an 'M' reg aircraft that has not been charged MOT on its fuel...recently!

OB

[Trim Stab]

Yes, we always received fuel free of VAT and MOT - just like a commercial flight - because it was a commercial flight. The aircraft was owned by a separate company within the group, and each flight was charged to whichever other part of the group chartered it. All completely legal and proper.

[Opsbeatch]

So was it Commercial Air Transport?
According to the IoM registry, they will have no hesitation in prosecuting the owner.

OB

[JanetFlight]

To the best of my knowledgment this is simple:

Aicraft flying under Any AOC(or similar eg: US=ACC; Brazil=CHETA, etc) its S or N.
Aircraft flying under No AOC its G.

Cause any M-Reg plane are off-AOC's the FPL's mandatory always G.

[dirk85]

It is not that simple.

There are many occasions where a plane under an AOC can and will file G, and apparently also the other way around is possible.

[JanetFlight]

There are many occasions where a plane under an AOC can and will file G, and apparently also the other way around is possible.
Yes, you are right Dirk...you could have a plane under an AOC flying private as G, (it happens a lot for instance when carrying corporate/owners, boss in private leisure, etc), however the opposite its not legal afaik. If you dont have an AOC you cannot carry Commercial/Public air transport of pax and cargo.
(At least in Europe) :rolleyes: .

[deefer dog]

Who cares anyway? Does any of this matter? Jeez, I'm glad I don't get all worked up over such triviality!

[JanetFlight]

DeeferDog:

"Who cares anyway?"
-I do Really care (believe me please), and others too really care!

"Does any of this matter?"
-YES, It does matter, specially when you could go into your company's trial/judgment or your boss are ordering you to not receive your monthly salary and you cant feed your children, simply because you were too much humble/naive/honest to trust a "bad-filled" FPL, a confusing AOC or a messy Operator.
-YES, it does matter cause you can have your Country's Tax&Customs Authorities at your back, just because you trusted someone.
You applied your airport landing fees, fuel tax fees, etc, having good faith in what was shown to you, which wasnt the case...

"Jeez, I'm glad I don't get all worked up over such triviality!"
-As long as you are not facing the risk of losing your day job or get a disciplinary action, im sure you wont worry...good for you, not good for others...sorry :=
You could be flying high & happy on your glamorous Bizjets above those "trivialities"...Others dont just because of some "misguided-interpretations" (not to call it Lies)!

BTW...when you wrote:
"so please Janet find a cure for your professional and operational curiosity"
I wasn't Unpolite neither Incorrect to you...so please try to moderate you language. Thank You!
PS: And good luck with your Medv/Hosp Flts&Fpls....DCTs are made for that.