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View Full Version : "Spouting nonsense"...about circumcision


deptrai
27th Mar 2014, 23:52
I just listened to someone who claimed that there are "mountains of evidence" which "conclusively demonstrate" that universal circumcision has "significant health benefits", "not the least of which is lowering the risk for HIV transmission"

I wanted to reply that it's more a matter of personal/religious preferences, than "conclusive evidence", except in certain individual cases where it may be medically indicated, that there are lots of opposing positions, studies and evidence about universal circumcision, that medical evidence suggests in general it's healthier to wash down there with a suitable soap amd warm water, and that for the purpose of HIV prevention it's better to use a condom...

Yet I found myself answering "you're spouting nonsense". I wondered where I got that from, and I think...it's something I read (too) often on pprune...

thing
28th Mar 2014, 00:08
Well if you weren't supposed to have a foreskin you wouldn't have been designed with one would you. However...as someone who had to have the 'procedure' for medical reasons I can reveal that it's better without than with...if you get my drift...:).

And for all those reading who may be worried about having it done then don't. I was given a shed load of painkillers and didn't take one of them and was driving the car within three days. You may walk like John Wayne for a little while but it gives you chance to work on the accent. I was told to lay off sex for three weeks so after three weeks and one minute it had a full functional check and was found to be fully operational and acceptable to all parties involved. It's not a big deal chaps.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 00:09
Wash don't amputate. Works fine for ears and feet.

If you're in water-sparse areas, and crowds of talibanis of several faiths make it difficult to obtain drugs and condoms, then it seems that circumcision does reduce the rate of HIV transmission. But that's like saying that in the absence of antibiotics, leeches are great for infected wounds.

Seldomfitforpurpose
28th Mar 2014, 00:14
Wash don't amputate. Works fine for ears and feet.

But not always for your penis, at 17 on discovering my foreskin no longer pulled back the ONLY option was circumcision so it's not always a bad thing :ok:

thing
28th Mar 2014, 00:14
I thought all Americans were circumcised as a matter of course? Isn't it a cultural thing with you guys?

racedo
28th Mar 2014, 00:19
A subject like this is just a tip of the iceberg....

thing
28th Mar 2014, 00:20
Tip of the poker in my case, arf arf...:}

This could get very degenerate.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 00:22
Seldom, yes - it's sometimes necessary.

Just like removing other bits of skin, but it shouldn't be done as a matter of course, and only in cases where the circumcee can give informed consent.

All told though, it's not much of a big deal: the ritual forms are usually comparable in invasiveness to ear piercing.

Shack37
28th Mar 2014, 00:22
I think there's a thread back somewhere on this subject.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 00:24
I think there's a thread back somewhere on this subject.

It probably lacked sensitivity.

rh200
28th Mar 2014, 00:26
Like a lot of things, the original reasoning is usually forgotten. Circumcision is mainly a cultural thing (religion) based. The question is why did it come about. Simply put, some smart bugger thousands of years ago realised that there where health benefits to it, not surprising for the times. As most things when your trying to get a mass of people to do something, turn it into part of the culture.

Now in most Western country's its not an issue, but that said, in some cases there may be medical reasons to have it done, no problem:)

The other issue is in our new materialistic society, there is a move in some quarters to say it is more appealling to look at, so thats a reason to get it done.:(. So back to cultural reasons, but in this case no actual medical reason behind it:ugh:

Shack37
28th Mar 2014, 00:30
yer tis

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/533760-circumcision.html

TomJoad
28th Mar 2014, 00:38
Well if you weren't supposed to have a foreskin you wouldn't have been designed with one would you.

I'd tend to agree but then again what about the appendix! Vestigial organs may at some time in our long road along the path of evolution had a role but long since redundant as we evolved. Maybe as we gave up being naked apes it was no longer so essential - don't know.

Cacophonix
28th Mar 2014, 00:44
So the religious stupidity that is circumcision comes to 'a head' again.

Men and women suffer this barbaric outrage in the name of some stupid notion accorded to both the Abrahamic religions and some others that are stuck in some arcane and primitive part of an uncivilised world...

For the rest I was circumcised as my Jewish forebears thought fit. I forgive them for that but would not inflict such stupidity on anyone else...

Caco

thing
28th Mar 2014, 00:53
I'd tend to agree but then again what about the appendix!

I seem to remember from my 40 odd years ago biology lessons that it has a role in the immune system. Peaks when you're young and then becomes less crucial as you get older.

TomJoad
28th Mar 2014, 01:36
I seem to remember from my 40 odd years ago biology lessons that it has a role in the immune system. Peaks when you're young and then becomes less crucial as you get older.

thing,

You are indeed correct - thanks for that I always thought it was redundant.

What is the function of the human appendix? Did it once have a purpose that has since been lost? - Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t/)

Pinky the pilot
28th Mar 2014, 02:49
Henry; I'm shocked!:eek: Simply shocked, I tell you!:eek:

I didn't think that you and Miss Bannister got up to such things!:ooh::E

Cacophonix
28th Mar 2014, 02:56
Brings to mind, the opening and closing of a sleeved valve at 18000 revs...

Castrol GTX aside...;)

Caco

onetrack
28th Mar 2014, 04:31
I don't know about you tough guys, but I was a week old when I was circumcised - and I couldn't walk for about 12 mths, afterwards. :{ :)

John Hill
28th Mar 2014, 05:14
Just about every victim of male genital mutilation (i.e. infant circumcision) will argue in favour of it although they obviously can have no knowledge of what was taken away from them.:(

Richo77
28th Mar 2014, 06:02
You're eyeball comes designed with a shield as well (eyelid) which protects it from drying out, infection, etc etc. Shall we remove those too?

Lordy!

cavortingcheetah
28th Mar 2014, 08:11
Circumcision is for the birds.

Capetonian
28th Mar 2014, 08:18
I am not generally in favour of interfering with nature, but a friend of mine is involved with a charity in South Africa which aims to reduce Aids and other STDs and one of their objectives is to perform circumcisions under hygienic clinical conditions since they believe it does reduce infections.

There is another angle, which is that in some communities ritual circumcisions are carried out on young adult males, under insanitary conditions by unqualified persons, and these invariably lead to infection and sometimes death.

I am not arguing in favour of circumcision, just pointing something out.

SpringHeeledJack
28th Mar 2014, 08:37
In Africa, the highest numbers of HIV infections are generally to be found in the regions where the men have their prepii intact and lowest in the regions where due to religious practice the extra has been trimmed off. Birth control by the back door is the culprit as it micro-tears the delicate skin and thus allows ingress of the nasty virus.



SHJ

B Fraser
28th Mar 2014, 09:26
just listened to someone who claimed that there are "mountains of evidence" which "conclusively demonstrate" that universal circumcision has "significant health benefits"


I just have to say it....


Is that someone making a mountain out of a mohel ? *






*google it if you don't get it

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 09:34
Yes, there is a correlation between HIV rates and male circumcision/mutilation rates, but there are cultural factors that correlate with intactness too.
If people get whipped in the street for holding hands, then hand-holding may be less common.

Regardless, the marginal change in outcome from being mutilated is much less than the dramatic change in outcome from using condoms.

Wojtyla and Ratzinger have a lot of blood on their hands, but then they were/are men following a grand tradition of having a lot of blood on their hands.

For clarity, since female genital mutilation is now fully accepted as a standard term for what used often to be called female circumcision, it's probably more than time to do the same for male circumcision. Modestly-invasive ritual male genital mutilation is much more descriptive, and catches both the relatively small physical impact and the lack of any routine medical justification.

henrybluebottle
28th Mar 2014, 11:52
Can you still get the wood ??:bored:

racedo
28th Mar 2014, 12:25
Wojtyla and Ratzinger have a lot of blood on their hands, but then they were/are men following a grand tradition of having a lot of blood on their hands.


What a load of garbage.............

People claiming that because Catholic church is against it then people not using condoms freely available because church said it.
However church is also against sex outside marraige / prostitution / rape and states than, so why are the faithful ignoring this while supposedly following the line on condoms.

Funnily how in states where Catholic church is not very strong there is also a high incidence on Aids so does that mean non Catholics are supposedly following Catholic teachings ???

How are STDs growing year on year in UK when majority of people do not belong to Catholic church and condoms freely available ?
380k to 450k people between 2008-2012...............what is the excuse there ?

parabellum
28th Mar 2014, 13:11
At the age of about four my son was circumcised as he had repeat infections of something called "Ballinitis." but I don't think that is the correct spelling.

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Mar 2014, 13:49
....and she always puts the tiger out first.


Serves you right for setting it alight.

421dog
28th Mar 2014, 14:53
I'm up to a total of 4 penectomies for squamous cell cancer at this point.

Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy,

All uncircumcised.


Mac, you may as well just copy in our last hamsterwheel about this from a couple of years ago when you get around to reading this.

Flame on, Awblain, I'm sure your expansive expertise extends to this subject as well.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 15:09
Just image finding Dr Dog going cherry-picking for anecdotes to serve the forces of superstition and reaction.

421dog
28th Mar 2014, 15:12
Please, just a simple FACS, not an FRCS, thus I only deserve Dr.

421dog
28th Mar 2014, 15:19
Well, as my wife is fond of reminding me, one of us has an earned doctorate while the other has an ABD and a social distinction...

pigboat
28th Mar 2014, 15:56
Another way of looking at it, complete pricks have a greater risk of penile cancer.

funfly
28th Mar 2014, 16:31
It has always been a puzzle to me that the same people that claim that their god made man in his own image and 'perfect' then choose to make modifications.

Personally I believe that if there were any benefits to being circumcised then evolution would have gone in this direction.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 16:31
I wonder where our good doctor stands on male HPV vaccination?

Given that the needless death rate from HPV-induced cancers stands a little less than a factor of 10 down from that of gunfire.

421dog
28th Mar 2014, 16:40
I can't see much of a downside. Cancer notwithstanding, genital warts are a plague no one should suffer. HPV is also now the leading cause of head and neck cancer in the USA.

Believe it or not I also support sex education and condom use.

awblain
28th Mar 2014, 16:53
421, Most excellent news (the recommendation, not the genital warts and facial cancer). Apologies for misunderestimating.

funfly, while your general point about this god fellow making errors is a good one, that selection pressure only works if the illness and death strikes before parenthood. HIV in Africa hasn't affected populations in history, and when compared to the ravages of malaria, it's still not a completely dominant effect. Sickle-cell anemia is an example of a deleterious mutation that's caught on to reduce the effects of something worse.

thing
28th Mar 2014, 18:19
It has always been a puzzle to me that the same people that claim that their god made man in his own image and 'perfect' then choose to make modifications.


Lord Robert Winston (a very well known and respected Jewish professor of fertility treatment and a pioneer of same here in England in case any of you non UK types haven't heard of him) was in the States doing a program about Creationists. There's a visitor attraction somewhere where they have dioramas of kids riding on the backs of dinosaurs and other such bizarreness. He was interviewing one of the chief nutjobs who said that they took the Bible literally. Winston asked if he minded answering a personal question and then asked him if he'd been circumcised as it says in the Bible. Collapse of stout party followed.

con-pilot
28th Mar 2014, 18:25
When I was born most children in the US were circumcised due to the current medical practice and beliefs of the times.

Religion had zero to do with it.

airship
28th Mar 2014, 18:41
thing wrote: Well if you weren't supposed to have a foreskin you wouldn't have been designed with one would you.

Agree 100%. :ok:

PS. deptrai, please don't waste too much of your time (or our own) relating your discussions on such issues "held elsewhere", with us here in JB. It's a well-known fact that most JBers were lobotomised at birth or soon afterwards. In my own experience, I (we) all get by here with just half a brain. It's no skin off my (our) nose/s here... ;)

421dog
28th Mar 2014, 22:05
Well, Mr. Ranger, if you'd done really ANY reading on the subject prior to turning on your super-troll afterburners, you'd know that penile cancer is nearly unheard of in circumcised men (really, the main indication cited for the procedure) and thus, it's far from my own "dumb inference". I merely cited my experience, because I don't really think anyone deserves to have his penis removed, and there seems to be a way of preventing the chief cause thereof.

And I assure you, I am a fully qualified surgeon boarded in General Surgery, Surgical Critical Care, and Hyperbaric Medicine. I have also completed separate fellowships in Trauma, Surgical Infectious Disease and Burn Surgery.

How's about you?

con-pilot
28th Mar 2014, 22:07
If you really are a medical professional, you should be ashamed of such a silly statement

To make such a conclusive statment, we can rest assured that you are a MD, no?

What is your speciality? GP? Oncologist? What pray tell?



Sorry Dog, you beat me to it.

arcniz
30th Mar 2014, 10:30
Surely a consideration in the bias toward the circumcision procedure is that there's a livelihood, or portion of same, in it for the house and for several individuals - surgeon, nurse, anesthesiologist, orderlies, cleaners, etc, with an increment of employment opportunity or fee fore each party involved.

End result, however accounted for, is a transfer of resources from one pocket to various others - papa pays the fees, and junior gives the tip.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Koceks_-_Surname-i_Vehbi.jpg
Circumcision ceremony of Sultan Ahmed III's three sons. The festival took place in 1720 and lasted for fifteen days and nights. Its opulence and splendor were documented in the Surname, a book commissioned for the occasion

PingDit
30th Mar 2014, 12:52
The prevention of cervical cancer in women could possibly benefit?


Cervical cancer | Circinfo.org (http://www.circinfo.org/cervical.html)

BOAC
30th Mar 2014, 12:59
Don't forget that as some very long-serving PPruners know, if you cut too much off, the damn thing don't work right.

Cacophonix
30th Mar 2014, 13:03
Interventionist surgery may be of benefit in countries with a first world health system but in a 3rd world scenario the potential benefits of such procedures may very well be entirely negated by the risks of botched operations, contaminated surgical instruments, contaminated blood and downright barbarity (vide. female circumcision)...

While 3rd world studies highlight the potential benefits of circumcision in reducing the transmission Aids (for example) the jury is truly out in terms of other sociological negatives such as male irresponsibility and the increased burden on the female to ensure effective prophylaxis and protection against other STDs etc..

It is a complex subject with many vested interests pro and con...

Caco

llondel
30th Mar 2014, 20:02
It occurred to me that this topic is ideally suited to the cut and thrust of JB :E

Pinky the pilot
31st Mar 2014, 02:01
The thought just occurred to me that it is a pity that Slasher is no longer present to give us his views on the subject!:sad::E

ChrisVJ
31st Mar 2014, 04:00
An entirely pointless diuscussion. The merits are irrelevant, no one is going to change their mind!

MagnusP
31st Mar 2014, 08:22
Pinky, I wonder whether Slasher's knob-glued-to-leg episode was an attempt at reversing a circumcision....

Ethel the Aardvark
31st Mar 2014, 13:57
If there is a fish and chip shop next to a synagogue, do not under any circumstances have the squid rings.

ArthurR
31st Mar 2014, 14:48
Those that have been circumcised, they are just a cut below the rest.

awblain
31st Mar 2014, 15:33
It occurred to me that this topic is ideally suited to the cut and thrust of JB

Could be worse - it might degenerate into turning and burning.
I'm not sure anyone would welcome a chisel and tar being involved.

Pinky the pilot
1st Apr 2014, 03:54
Don't know about that event MagnusP. Almost sounds like a revenge attack from a jealous Female!:eek::uhoh:

MagnusP
1st Apr 2014, 08:12
Pinky, the story goes (1) hot day so sitting naked, (2) broken cup to be repaired at Mrs Slash's request, (3) Superglue spill.

Pinky the pilot
1st Apr 2014, 10:27
Thanks Mags!:ok:

'That'll learn 'im!':}

MagnusP
1st Apr 2014, 10:36
I managed to superglue one of MrsP's shoes to my thumb on a hydrofoil to Capri, but that, I admit, pales into insignificance in comparison! :p

cockney steve
2nd Apr 2014, 18:45
@ Magnus p said the story goes (1) hot day so sitting naked, (2) broken cup to be repaired at Mrs Slash's request, (3) Superglue spill.

So he was on a bit of a sticky wicket, then. :}

As puberty approached, changing for PE, lads would compare / flaunt/ hide...basically proclaimed Roundhead or Cavalier (British historical reference, -see "Oliver Cromwell" )
I had no choice in the matter,chopped as an infant and once it's gone, that's your lot.........
Now, wonder if those ambulance -chasing lowlife solicitors would like too seek compo for me, for my stolen prepuce and lost pleasure.....though I don't know what it may have been like, so it's all hearsay and Mr. Crun's expert testimony:8