View Full Version : I don't understand

27th Mar 2014, 17:26
I don't understand why Europe is so concerned about the possibility of Russia cutting off their energy sources. Can't they just use the wind turbines and solar arrays they've been building for the last 20 years? One source of energy is pretty well as good as another after all.

After an excellent landing etc...

Lightning Mate
27th Mar 2014, 17:42
Wind turbines and solar systems simply don't work.

The UK is not worried about loss of Russian gas, but other European countries are.

27th Mar 2014, 17:46
Germany, for example, imports 100% of it's natural gas needs from.... Russia.

27th Mar 2014, 17:48
When it's windy and sunny those devices allow savings on gas costs, although given the almost absurd cheapness of installing gas turbine power plants, you can buy a great deal of gas with the money you didn't spend on wind turbines.

When it's not windy and sunny, you still need to make nicer with the Qataris and build some more import terminals.

The UK should be somewhat concerned - its coal and nuclear plants are all getting very long in the tooth, and unless fracking Lancashire works out, it'll be time for the UK to make nice with the Qataris too.

27th Mar 2014, 17:51
What ever gave you the idea that wind and solar arrays are built as an alternative to Russian gas? :ugh:

They are built solely in order to collect government subsidies paid for out of tax.

27th Mar 2014, 17:51
Germany, for example, imports 100% of it's natural gas needs from.... Russia.

That'l teach them to abandon all reseach and construction of nuclear energy.
France will not have the same problem.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
27th Mar 2014, 17:52
Winter of 1962 / 3, high pressure system over UK for months, whole country deep frozen... and no wind. But we had coal fired power stations back then, and coal fires in our houses, so not such a probelm.

If we get that again... We could always burn a few 'greens' I suppose. :}

We should have been building nuclear for decades now, never mind all this windmill carp that makes politicians look as if they are doing something because the turbines are so visible... but so useless!

Dak Man
27th Mar 2014, 17:57
Germany, for example, imports 100% of it's natural gas needs from.... Russia.

No it doesn't


27th Mar 2014, 18:00
Dak Man:

You are correct as I read the data wrong. I had gotten the data from:

Country Analysis Note

Germany is the largest energy consumer in Europe, not including Russia (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=RS), and the seventh largest energy consumer in the world. It is also the fourth largest economy in the world by nominal gross domestic product (GDP) after the United States (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=US), China (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=CH), and Japan (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=JA). Its size and location give it considerable influence over the European Union's energy sector. However, Germany must rely on imports to meet the majority of its energy demand.
Oil continues to be Germany's primary source of energy, making up 38 percent of Germany's total primary energy consumption in 2011. The transportation sector makes up the majority of petroleum product demand, although the government's 2010 "Energy Concept" publication advocates for one million electric vehicles on the road by 2020 and six million by 2030.
At 2.2 million barrels per day of crude refining capacity, Germany is one of the largest refiners in the world, and second in Europe after Russia. Germany imports oil through four crude pipelines and one petroleum product pipeline, as well as four main sea ports. The country's sole deepwater port at Wilhelmshaven handles a large portion of Germany's international oil trade.
Germany has no liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminals, so it must import natural gas exclusively through several major cross-border pipeline networks. Almost all natural gas imports come from Russia via the Nord Stream system (completed in 2011), Norway (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=NO) via Norpipe and Europipe systems, and the Netherlands (http://www.eia.gov/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=NL) via four main pipelines. Natural gas use in Germany has declined from its peak in 2003 at rate of 3.2 percent per year through 2011, largely because of energy efficiency improvements.
Germany was the sixth largest generator of nuclear energy in the world in 2011 with 102.6 terawatthours, and historically it was an important exporter of nuclear technology. Following the Fukushima accident in March 2011, the German government decided to close eight reactors launched before 1980 because of public protests, and to close Germany's nine remaining nuclear reactors before 2022.
Although coal is Germany's most abundant indigenous energy resource, its role in the country's energy mix, albeit significant, has been decreasing steadily over time. However, coal use has increased since the Fukushima reactor accident since it can be used as a substitute for nuclear power in electricity generation. Germany was the world's eighth largest producer of coal in 2011. Nearly all coal goes to the power and industrial sectors.
Germany is a regional or world leader on several categories of renewable energy use. In 2011, it was the largest European producer of non-hydro renewable electricity, wind energy, and biofuels (primarily biodiesel). The country was also the largest solar electricity producer in the world. The German government stated that it will continue to shift from nuclear power to renewable energy sources.

27th Mar 2014, 18:16
Gee! I didn't know wind turbines don't work. In driving across the great plains I've noticed at least 1 in 5 turning on average. What I haven't seen is even 1 not costing interest. However I am assured by many governments and other fine organizations that they are wave of the future. On the solar side I wonder who cleans them up after dust accumulates but I suppose that is done by the same people that advocate them.

After an excellent landing etc...

27th Mar 2014, 18:19
I don't understand why Europe is so concerned about the possibility of Russia cutting off their energy sources. See the Streetwise Professor (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=8309) on why there's no need to worry, it would hurt the West, but bankrupt Russia.

27th Mar 2014, 18:21
UK (Centrica) started importing Russian gas this year, under a contract executed in 2012. Contract quantity 2.8bcm over three years. That equals circa 98 bscf or roughly 98 mmscf/day.

As for W/turbines, the other power stations still need to be "turning" because the wind is so variable. You can't switch off these power stations because it takes hours to re-start them (sometimes days). All you can do is turn them down but you must keep them running.

The w/turbine is one of the biggest cons in modern history. Well done the buggy fluffy brigade and those that can't think beyond the headline:ugh:

27th Mar 2014, 18:29
The UK would be affected as all gas prices would shoot up as Germany starts splashing euros around to get supplies in. Mind you this time a European summer could do to Putin what a Russian winter did for hitler..
Nuclear, fracking, tidal, ever increasing energy efficiency will eventually do in the energy rich despots of the world.

Mac the Knife
27th Mar 2014, 18:39
"We should have been building nuclear for decades now..."


27th Mar 2014, 18:39
With wind turbines, it's the shaft you see, if it doesn't keep turning, using electricity from the Grid to do so in calm conditions, it'll bend.
It's a little known rumour, especially among those devoted to green energy and land rentals, that wind turbines are known colloquially as Winterbribes.

The following is not an example of anything illegal, hypocritical or even venal. Probably just business as usual within the corridors of power.

Acciona Appoints Miriam González Durantez as Director, Gets Financial Backing for Mexico Wind Farm

Just a day after announcing that the wife of UK Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, Miriam González Durantez, will become a non-executive director, Spanish renewable energy company Acciona said ten financial entities have signed financing agreements for its Eurus windpark in Mexico.
Durantez is a Partner at DLA Piper, a UK-based Law Firm, where she heads up their international trade and EU law practice, and the board said the appointment demonstrates its commitment to international expansion.
Durantez’s 12 years experience at the European Commission along with her expertise in international trade and at DLA Piper will contribute to the consolidation of Acciona’s international footprint, the company said.
The ten financial entities backing the Mexican wind farm are mostly linked to global or regional public institutions, with some specifically-oriented to supporting sustainable projects in developing countries.
The institutions include International Finance Corporation, which reports to the World Bank, Banco Interamericano de Desarrollo (IDB) and Corporación Financiera Andina (CAF), the main source of multilateral financing in the region.
The Eurus windpark in the state of Oaxaca, with 250.5MW already in service, has the highest installed capacity in Latin America and is the biggest built by Acciona in the world.
Acciona said its production will cover up to 25 per cent of the electricity supply needs of the cement plants of Cemex in Mexico.
Copyright © 2010 NewNet

27th Mar 2014, 18:44
And who wooda thunk that if you get more than 20% or so of your power from non-synchronous sources like wind turbines the grid becomes unstable, none of the advocates ever told me that!

After an excellent landing etc...

uffington sb
27th Mar 2014, 19:07
Just see how much those wind turbines are producing at the mo.
Thank goodness for coal, nuclear and gas.

U.K. National Grid status (http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk)

27th Mar 2014, 19:26
About getting gas from Russia.

Stupid huggy fluffies allowed themselves to become dependent on their potential enemy for gas, and enough dependent that it would threaten the well being of their citizens, let alone their political survival.

Sure it might bankrupt Russia. Any idea how long it takes to bankrupt a country. So thirty or forty million go hungry, so we might have to sell the dasha, so my wife is upset she'll miss her Harrods trip this year. At least their citizens will be warm. It could take years. (How many countries have sanctions bankrupted? Please get real.)

How long do you think Western countries will survive in Winter without enough gas to heat homes and drive industry? (Directly or indirectly.)

‘The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils’. Well, they failed us on that one, didn't they?

tony draper
27th Mar 2014, 19:33
Didn't Germany shut down all its Nuclear power stations recently? shurely they just need hoy some more lumps uranium into the boilers to fire them up again.

27th Mar 2014, 19:58
Much more sensible to do a deal with Iceland (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/apr/11/iceland-volcano-green-power). Lots of reliable, 24/7, green, geothermal power.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
27th Mar 2014, 20:06
Wind only works in 'the right sort of wind'. Not in a winter high pressure (the coldest cold we'll ever get), or when it's blowing a hooly. Looks like 'summat's being done', though, which is why politicians like it. Oh, and it disfigures the hills! And the sea!

Gas and coal both mostly imported. :rolleyes:

French have it right. Nuclear is the answer (tiny waste products if you don't pi55 about trying to reprocess it like BNFL did).