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View Full Version : Wot happens to all the cash / drugs / property that the police confiscate?


airship
20th Mar 2014, 19:04
I've often wondered about what eventually happens to all the cash, drugs, wide-screen LCD TVs, expensive cars, luxury homes etc. that the police confiscate or otherwise "take into custody" during their operations against suspected criminals. Like yourselves, most of my knowledge of such things comes from watching TV news reports or pseudo-documentaries involving cops and criminals.

But this BBC news report (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-26644839) sheds some light maybe: Omer Butt, from Greater Manchester, said about £10,000 was taken when his brother was arrested on suspicion of benefit and insurance fraud.

The Met Police, who arrested the man, has returned £4,000 but accepted more was outstanding.

Mr Butt has been told some officers involved "have left the police service, therefore obtaining information can be problematic". Mr Butt's brother was released without charge after the searches in the Prestwich area of Manchester.

Mr Butt said: "Officers initially raided two homes. They asked my brother if there was anything he wanted to tell them and he said I have a large amount of cash in a bedroom. They took the money and we are not sure what happened to it after that."

Obviously, when it comes to confiscating cash etc., the police may well be a law unto themselves, as it were..?! And who could realistically blame the poorly-paid cop/s subtly removing a small proportion of ill-gotten gains...?! :uhoh:

I know that in the USA the government regularly holds auctions of "the fruits" of successfully convicted criminals, including cars and villas etc. (Personnaly, I'd never consider buying any of these especially ex. drug dealer properties, in case there are later "come-backs"). Does that happen anywhere else?

PS. If cannabis (marijuana) is now legal for cultivation / sale / consumption in some US states, shouldn't French and other EU customs authorities consider shipping their confiscated contraband to California or Colorado instead of simply burning it all?

Capetonian
20th Mar 2014, 19:14
I had a friend in the Customs Service in South Africa, and I know what happened to a lot of the stuff they confiscated! As booze and fags were cheap in ZA, the main interest was in banned literature and pornography, specially videos.

angels
20th Mar 2014, 19:24
There used to be a nice little scam going where dealers were busted with, say, 5 keys of coke and would be charged with procession of one key.

The dealers couldn't really stand up in court and say, "WTF, I had five keys!" could they?

I knew someone who said his best source was a copper.

But this was all long ago. I'm sure it doesn't happen now.....

con-pilot
20th Mar 2014, 19:33
But this was all long ago. I'm sure it doesn't happen now.....

Well, after the "Don't ask, don't tell' system left the US Military, it had to go somewhere. :E

We had three seized aircraft; Lear 25, Kingair 200 and a Lear 28.

The Lear 25 was stolen from us by the FBI.

The Kingair 200 was stolen from us by a drug lord. Yes, it really was, still in Colombia last I far as I know.

The Lear 28 was given back to the Mexican drug lord that it was seized from by a Federal Judge in El Paso.

oopspff7
20th Mar 2014, 19:35
A work mate used to do a regular booze run over to Calais.After many many trips he was pulled and found to be overweight by around 80 cases of Stella.He had to unload excess cases on road side.When he asked what would happen to lager he was informed that it would all go towards the staff Xmas party.To rub salt in the wounds he was hit with a massive fine as well.End of booze run.End of cheap booze to work mates.

papershuffler
20th Mar 2014, 19:39
Some of it's here: Auction Sale (http://frankgbowen.co.uk/auction.html)

They auction off a load of stuff. Higher value goes to higher class auctions.

Really, there are procedures nowadays in the UK which mean nothing should go missing. Amounts are agreed between the person seizing and the person whose house they're in, they're sealed away and you have no idea what an :mad:ache it is to get some of these things open again.

When I was searching, I used to keep my fingers crossed that I wouldn't find anything falling under section 19 (valuable items or drugs; I was always after documents which fell under a different act) as it would mean my work came to a screeching halt while the hoops were jumped through. EVERYTHING was written down in a little notebook by the police, you couldn't stop them. And before we left the house, a list of what was been seized was presented to the householder. That's when any discrepancies should have been identified.
Then every officer should have submitted a statement within a certain time of the search finishing (sometimes took a few weeks), this should have been chased by the investigating officer.

I think we're missing part of this tale.

pineridge
20th Mar 2014, 19:44
When did Jet Blast turn into a slanderous, childish anti-police website?

con-pilot
20th Mar 2014, 19:50
When did Jet Blast turn into a slanderous, childish anti-police website?

You're new here aren't you. :p

angels
20th Mar 2014, 19:59
connie - :ok: :E

pineridge - slanderous? Not me. I'll look up the court case if you want. May take a time, it was a while ago. I think these sort of things are lot less common now because of the procedures papershuffler describes.

Now why do you think those procedures were needed?

Hmmm. This wasn't the case, but it rather looks like it is still going on!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303954/Corrupt-detective-Nicholas-McFadden-stole-1m-seized-heroin-cocaine-cannabis-sell.html

Burnie5204
20th Mar 2014, 20:36
when was the last time you came across a non - bent Copper?

Hi, meet me and my roughly 120,000 fellow Serving Police Officers in England and Wales of whom, statistically, only 0.28% are demonstrably 'bent' according to a recent report commissioned by the government (if I recall correctly. It was definitely less than half of a percent)

The problem is that fantastically small number have such a devastating impact that we all hear about it and the press ALWAYS jump on a bent cop story.

Hillsborough - A small minority of officers made false statements and editted the statements of the rest to try and defend the reputation of the Police

Ian Tomlinson - ONE officer acted well beyond the bounds of reasonable force and then fed misinformation to his superiors regarding his behaviour prior to the attack.

Dont forget that many of these stories of bent cops come from years and years ago - sometimes two or more DECADES ago. Policing has moved on MASSIVELY since then. Yes, there have been recent cases of individual officers (or unfortunately one team where a bent officer managed to 'infect' his whole team) being bent but the number of bent officers is tiny compared to the hundreds of thousands of officers putting their lives on the line dealing with the absolute WORST of society. I mean houses where you wipe your feet on the way OUT...

Some of the 'corruption' has actually been caused by the government. The Home Office, quite inappropriately, introduced hundreds of unrealistic targets that Police had to meet. This led to officers being continuously pressured by auditors left, right and centre with their jobs being threatened if they didnt meet the targets. Now that those targets are slowly being removed Officers are managing to get back to their core task of Policing and catching bad people.

Now the Police are more acountable, more closely monitored and more closely scrutinised than ever.

I cant have my blue lights and sirens on without my dispatcher and anyone else on the mapping software knowing. I cant exceed the speed limit without my dispatcher and anyone else on the mapping software knowing (both thanks to the Black Box and data transmitter in the car whose data can be viewed for many months in the past). I cant take a wrong turn without my dispatcher knowing. I literally can't take a crap without my dispatcher knowing due to the GPS locators in the car and in my radio. Every radio message or phonecall I make is recorded. I have to wear a body camera. I have to tell my control anytime I stop a car. I have to write in my pocket book every time I stop someone. I have to fill out a form every time I search someone. Everything I do on the computers is auditable, every login, every bit of software, every keystroke, every search. Everything I film on BodyCam goes onto a central server and can be viewed by my Sergeants, by my Station Commander, by the courts, by Proffesional Standards.



In relation to items we seize they're dealt with in a number of ways. Lost Property is stored for 28 days then disposed of if not claimed. Anything illegal (drugs etc) are destroyed. Anything seized as evidence is stored indefinitely until the end of legal proceedings (which includes the length of any custodial sentence) then either destroyed if illegal or returned to the owner if not. Anything seized under the Proceeds of Crime act goes to the courts - cash goes straight in, other items are sold by auction and then the money goes to the courts.

Whilst we're on it (before anyone starts) the Police make absolutely no money from and tickets, whether thats parking, speeding or disorder. Every penny from those goes to the courts. It actually costs the Police money every time we issue a ticket.

radarman
20th Mar 2014, 20:58
Thanks Burnie,

You have answered airship's question so comprehensively that there is nothing left for the JB crowd to gossip or rumour about. Rotten spoilsport :{

con-pilot
20th Mar 2014, 21:04
there is nothing left for the JB crowd to gossip or rumour about.

Conclusive facts and evidence has never stopped them before.

And well said Burnie. :ok:

P6 Driver
20th Mar 2014, 21:10
As very often happens, we hear about the negative stuff, but the positive stuff is then in its shadow.

CathayBrat
20th Mar 2014, 21:14
Wot happens to all the drugs
Hanger 1, RAF Finningley, Doncaster. All destroyed by fire. Stand down wind, and enjoy.

Burnie5204
20th Mar 2014, 21:55
Thanks Burnie,

You have answered airship's question so comprehensively that there is nothing left for the JB crowd to gossip or rumour about. Rotten spoilsport*

Ooops.....

I and my fellow officers are just a little fed up of being made out to be corrupt. The only reason anyone thinks there is a huge problem with corruption is because the gutter press and certain elements of the government (who are trying to do anything to deflect attention from themselves and justify increasing privitisation and cuts) want you to think that and unfortunately, as they say "throw enough s*** and something will stick" in this case if you keep saying the Police are corrupt then people will start believing it.

Even the MacPherson report was at it - 'we couldnt find any evidence that police officers or police practices show any evidence of racism. Therefore we find that the Met Police are institutionally racist.' i.e. we cant find any evidence of racism so you must be racist...

con-pilot
20th Mar 2014, 22:15
Now I'll have to admit that when we disposed of the seized Lear 28, we did have a party and a lot of beer (and Scotch) was consumed.

But we paid for the party out of our pockets, as we were so happy to see that POS leave. :p

papershuffler
20th Mar 2014, 22:33
Ooops.....

I and my fellow officers are just a little fed up of being made out to be corrupt....[and/or]...racist.

I really enjoyed working with the police, and found most of them were wary of the racism accusations (they weren't, just solid people with great senses of humour and livers under seige from all the drinking), but were concerned about the 'positive discrimination' policies as they thought it made things worse and created bad feeling.

My experiences since haven't been so great, as I'm now a road cyclist and considered vermin by a high proportion of the population, police included.:rolleyes:
(Was assaulted today by a driver but it will be lucky to get anywhere.)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
20th Mar 2014, 22:58
I have been to a Police Station 4 times in my life:
Once to ask the cricket score (they gave me it - they were all listening to TMS as I had suspected).
Once to report my bicycle missing. :{
Once 2 days later to collect said bicycle (undamaged) after they'd found it :ok:

..and once in Canada to get fingerprints for a security check. The cells clearly hadn't been used for ages (the fingerprint pad had dried out - the Mountie apologised for the delay as she went to find another one), but were spotlessly clean just in case.

Keep up the good work Burnie :ok:

This may amuse you about crime round here
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/teen-charged-with-tractor-theft-after-low-speed-chase-1.817555

tony draper
20th Mar 2014, 23:02
Recovered stolen property often goes unclaimed because the insurance has already been paid out on it.
:)

G-CPTN
20th Mar 2014, 23:08
I had personal knowledge of a sum of money being handed to the Police as lost property that was miraculously claimed by one of the station policemen.

oldpax
21st Mar 2014, 01:31
Here in Thailand lots of drugs and guns are confiscated every week .I think in all my years here I only ever saw on TV a burning of a mound of drugs and that was only marijuana.The local consensus is that the drugs are passed on by the police for resale and the guns go to needy police who could only afford cheap pistols!You don't believe it?!!!

SawMan
21st Mar 2014, 03:34
Because here in the US, seized non-contraband property is auctioned, with the police department(s) who did the seizing getting a fair percentage of the take. And when you top that with the provisions of the Patriot act, the seized property is often auctioned off before all court proceedings are over. Plus if you're holding over $2000US in cash it can be seized even if you're not charged with any crime. You want your property back (or what the court says it was worth, remembering that they too share in the take) then you have to file a civil lawsuit at your own expense to get it. We've got a police state here now, and that's not even considering Louisiana where there is no 'case law' (precedents) where they can do pretty much whatever they want to and if you're not connected even God can't help you :eek:

I know some cops. I had (past tense) several friends who were cops; none of them are doing that anymore. The ones I knew were good people, sometimes stretching the rules but never for personal or departmental gain. The ones I know now I don't trust at gunpoint, and that assessment has proven to be a good one. There may be a few good cops left here, but they're only filling time to get to their retirement. And their already small numbers are declining. There was a time when I would have backed any cop without question- those days are gone. If you shot a cop in my driveway and I was in the yard watching, I wouldn't see a thing. I'd just calmly walk back in, close and lock the door, and practice saying "I don't know nothing, now leave me alone or I'm calling my attorney"

I didn't change- I've always supported good people- yet there has been change. I'll leave it to you to figure out why. And if it's better where you are, then don't emigrate here because it's getting worse daily. I'd be gone already if I could swing it but I can't afford that even if another nice Nation would have an old curmudgeon like me :} And I still have some 'connections' and a good lawyer so I'll probably survive OK till I go coffin-cold.

RatherBeFlying
21st Mar 2014, 04:47
Seized firearms were getting sold -- I don't remember where the money went. After that hit the papers, they were destroyed.

Several folks in a drug squad spent considerable time in court facing various charges. The story I best remember is the officer who searched bank safety boxes all by himself. He regularly refused offers by bank staff to sit with him to assist in recording contents while a box was opened.

It became well known among the defense bar that much less cash appeared in court than was seized.

500N
21st Mar 2014, 04:52
"Plus if you're holding over $2000US in cash it can be seized even if you're not charged with any crime."

On what basis ?

Considering you are allowed to bring in US $10,000 into and out of the US in cash, same as Aus.

I suppose they would look at who has the cash on them ?

BlueDiamond
21st Mar 2014, 06:54
Here in Oz drug/other illegal stuff searches are videoed. Items that are seized are listed by one of the officers who is nominated for that task. At the end of the search the owner is asked to check the list and invited to sign. It is explained to them that signing to agree that whatever drugs/firearms etc. were taken by the police is not an admission of guilt, merely an agreement that what is on the list is what was taken.

If certain items are to be used in evidence, a chain of custody is carefully adhered to with every item transferred to another custodian being agreed upon (by identifying numbers on frangible labels) and signed for. Every time an item changes hands, this procedure must be followed.

After the trial, the judge will give directions for disposal of the goods. Drugs are destroyed as is child pornography. Where possible, personal items such as jewellery or money will be returned to their rightful owners unless they are the proceeds of crime. Sometimes, if there is the possibility of an appeal, items will be kept in a secure storage facility until all avenues of appeal have been exhausted and there is no further use for those items.

Items that cannot be returned, or whose owner cannot be found, will go to auction. And of course drug dealers' assets become the property of the state.

SawMan
21st Mar 2014, 11:27
"Plus if you're holding over $2000US in cash it can be seized even if you're not charged with any crime."

On what basis ?

Considering you are allowed to bring in US $10,000 into and out of the US in cash, same as Aus.

I suppose they would look at who has the cash on them ?

The basis is the "Patriot Act", those draconian laws our Congress passed post-9/11 of which many specifically allow acts which were held to be patently unconstitutional before then. This part was created in consideration that 'terrorists' wouldn't be using a traceable banking system, but operating with cash instead, and that this is about the minimum it would take to buy things that could do mass damage :ugh: Yes, you can legally bring in $10K cash, but you had better be able to prove that it is your own money and that every part of it was obtained legally- and even then they can confiscate it until trial where you have to prove those points (which is kind of hard to do when you don't have the cash to pay a lawyer now that they took your money) :bored:

Similar laws allow the govt to detain you without arrest, a bail hearing, or even with a requirement that the Govt make known they have you in custody for any length of time simply because they suspect that you are a terrorist or have affiliations with the same. No specifications given of what constitutes a valid reason for their suspicion :eek: Areas have been 'placed on lockdown' by law enforcement such as stores, malls, and neighborhoods because of police operations- you are prohibited from moving about or leaving the 'locked down' area and will be arrested if you try, even if it is obvious that you have no connection to whatever caused them to do the 'lockdown'. This is done 'for your own protection' of course :} but it was considered to be kidnapping and unlawful detention prior to it's 'official authorization'. Common sense would dictate that if there was a known danger in an area you'd want to get as many innocent people out of harm's way as possible but instead they do the opposite :confused:

There is almost no freedom in America anymore save for the freedom to work and pay taxes and to do as your government tells you to do :( I would say that it's time for us to revolt but that would give them legal grounds to come here and detain me for terrorist intentions against my "good" government , seizing everything I own in case it had any possible connection with what I might have done :uhoh: And no, I'm not a crackpot (though we do have our share of those) nor am I exaggerating- look into it yourself. God how I wish I'd left here when I was younger and could.

angels
21st Mar 2014, 15:56
SawMan - spiffing rant mate.

From your location I thought you were writing from Tora Bora! :}

airship
21st Mar 2014, 16:21
Burnie5204 wrote: Hi, meet me and my roughly 120,000 fellow Serving Police Officers in England and Wales of whom, statistically, only 0.28% are demonstrably 'bent' according to a recent report commissioned by the government (if I recall correctly. It was definitely less than half of a percent).

The problem is that fantastically small number have such a devastating impact that we all hear about it and the press ALWAYS jump on a bent cop story.

Whilst I still have the utmost respect for every / any police officer I ever come across these days, I find your statistics somewhat suspect. You explain that just 0.28% (out of 120,000 total fellow serving police officers) are "bent". That would only be 336 officers (or 600 at the higher 0.5% you mentioned). Are they still "serving"? :confused:

1) Are (UK) police officers more "bent" than the average population (according to last UK census in 2011, the UK had a population of about 63,182,000) which might mean that upto 177,000 UK citizens might / should be behind bars (which don't serve real ale). A real figure for the UK (excluding Scotland and northern Ireland) in 2001 was an average of 148 people incarcerated per 100,000 population = 0.15% (compared to "bent" coppers of 0.28%). :}

2) Then again, many "crimes" in these categories (I also include corporate corruption - petty theft, personal expenses being submitted as corporate expenses for reimbursement, and even payment of bribes etc.) which are actually committed may never be reported or investigated. It wouldn't surprise me if just 1 in 10 ever result in a complaint, let alone result in any official police investigations. Most of those involved preferring Omertà and even if there are many witnesses, they too preferring to remain "silent" for whatever reason... :uhoh:

3) Presumably, when it comes to police officers, much depends on their activities. The eponymous British "Bobby" walking the beat cannot be directly compared to say, the detective specialising in drug-enforcement undercover or whatever (where they might have far greater temptations). It was only about 6 months ago that the French simply and completely dis-banded a whole police department operating in Marseille.

I'm not attempting to denigrate all police officers (wherever they are on the Planet). If only so as to not attract their attention to airship...?! :uhoh:

Finally, when I wrote: PS. If cannabis (marijuana) is now legal for cultivation / sale / consumption in some US states, shouldn't French and other EU customs authorities consider shipping their confiscated contraband to California or Colorado instead of simply burning it all?, I was being relatively serious, noone has yet replied. Would appreciate some comments on whether or not this isn't a viable proposition because of any USA agricultural protectionism laws or aid to USA farmers etc. :ok:

con-pilot
21st Mar 2014, 16:51
Yes, you can legally bring in $10K cash, but you had better be able to prove that it is your own money and that every part of it was obtained legally- and even then they can confiscate it until trial where you have to prove those points (which is kind of hard to do when you don't have the cash to pay a lawyer now that they took your money

I have left the US and returned to the US with cash in excess of $10,000.00 many times, all you have to do is to report that you are. You need not to say why, nor where the money came from, nor whose money it is, just that you have cash USD in excess of ten thousand USD.

In all the times that I did this, I was never asked why.

All you have to do is report it.

By the way, it was not my money, it was company funds.

airship
21st Mar 2014, 16:58
Hey c-p, but that was all well before they (the CIA) invented the corporate credit card huh?! ;)

jayteeto
21st Mar 2014, 17:03
My wife is a detective, she plays things by the book. The officers who were on my helicopter crew were straight down the line when it came to the rules. I can say with confidence, that they never exaggerated or lied in a statement or on oath, quite the opposite in fact.
I personally find it insulting when the JetBlast 'regulars' spew their anti-police agenda, my missus just shrugs her shoulders and accepts that discrimination happens. Yes, there are scumbags in the police, but they are a minority. You wouldnt be blatantly racist or offensively sexist on JetBlast, why do you think it acceptable to (incorrectly) label all police as corrupt?????

con-pilot
21st Mar 2014, 17:04
Hey c-p, but that was all well before they (the CIA) invented the corporate credit card huh?!

Hey now, I'm not that old. :p

It is just that I traveled to places that cash worked wonders, even when using credit cards.

Other international corporate pilots know what I'm talkng about. ;)

air pig
21st Mar 2014, 17:30
Jayteeto;

if she's with Merseyside, then its a damn good force. They know who the scumballs are, just they haven't got the evidence yet to lock them up. Matrix does a fine job at effecting entrance into the scally's houses everyday, even on Christmas Day. A couple of years ago was driving along Sefton street on the waterfront and saw two carriers full of coppers, I think they were waiting to deliver someone's Christmas present in time for the Queens speech. Good luck to her and her colleagues and stay safe.

The main problem with the police is their managers and their climb up the greasy pole, not the cop on the street.

GMP and the Met, I do have some reservations about, again more management not the cops on the street.

airship
21st Mar 2014, 18:12
Hmmmm, have to wonder if jayteeto, papershuffler or Burnie5204 have yet resorted to using all the means at their disposal to enquire after just who "we all are" subsequently...?!

c-p, would you do us all the courtesy of PMing 'em with the username / password for access to the NSA / GCHQ data, putting "us all out of our misery once and for all"...?! :{ :ok:

PS. In my past experience, (ship's) pilots were content to receive a couple of cartons of Marlboros...?!

con-pilot
21st Mar 2014, 20:27
c-p, would you do us all the courtesy of PMing 'em with the username / password for access to the NSA / GCHQ data, putting "us all out of our misery once and for all"...?!

I could, but then I'd have to have you killed. :p

In the past, in Mexico a copy of 'Playboy', a bottle of good Scotch and a 20 dollar bill eliminated all hassles. Now days it takes a couple of hundred dollar bills*. That's why I made sure we had a good supply of cash on all the aircraft.


* Inflation I guess.

papershuffler
21st Mar 2014, 22:24
said in a Scouse accent and wearing a shell suit, you know the one ;) Harry Enfield - The Scousers - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6k2YEc6dozA)

Hmmmm, have to wonder if jayteeto, papershuffler or Burnie5204 have yet resorted to using all the means at their disposal to enquire after just who "we all are" subsequently...?!

Nowt to do wi' me any longer, guv.:}

(Unfortunately, I'm well out of it due to ill health :sad:)

SawMan
22nd Mar 2014, 04:55
I have left the US and returned to the US with cash in excess of $10,000.00 many times, all you have to do is to report that you are. You need not to say why, nor where the money came from, nor whose money it is, just that you have cash USD in excess of ten thousand USD.

In all the times that I did this, I was never asked why.

All you have to do is report it.

By the way, it was not my money, it was company funds.

And I absolutely believe you. You had some things in your favor: they knew how in your business this was not so abnormal; that your company could (and would) raise a public stink for a wrongful seizure; that this is in an international area of things. And I'm sure some private concerns have done similarly with equal success. But a fair number have has a far different story to tell with a fair number of them finding it so hard to get their money back that they just gave up. These seizures are more apt to happen when the chance of a ruckus is smaller- like the TX used car dealer whose $12K was seized in CO as he was on the way to CA to buy cars to sell back home. It almost put him out of business. Or the Band member traveling near here who had the money to rent the venue they were going to play at seized resulting in a contract failure on their part which will likely end this band's ambitions and possibilities forevermore. Or the thousands of cars and money seized in LA because they might have been used to smuggle drugs (though almost none were every proven to have any possibility if that) with almost none having been shown to in court? Just a few instances of many.

But the bigger question is why does it happen at all? If the authorities have enough evidence of a crime that is likely to sustain a conviction, then they could always do this- and rightfully so. But now it's happening to folks where there's not enough evidence to cause any sane person to believe a crime was committed, but warrants are issued rubber-stamp fashion and it happens anyway. If the charges are dropped before a judicial ruling, you have no recourse other than filing a civil lawsuit to recover your losses and those who did you wrong are indemnified from prosecution by you. If any seized items have passed beyond the local jailhouse (which they will have) then you have to file another lawsuit to recover them. Which isn't going to happen unless you have enough un-seized money somewhere to pay for it all.

Thing is that we are supposed to be Constitutionally protected against improper seizures until our case has been adjudicated and we have been found guilty, and if found innocent there is supposed to be an immediate restoration of seized legal goods, yet now these seizures occur long before anything has been proven, and happen even when there is no valid reason to have suspicion beyond that there is a possibility that a crime has been committed. Since anyone can commit a crime (it is always a possibility) then it essentially makes everyone subject to these excesses leaving only the morality of the govt officials to protect you. Effectively you are being presumed guilty before it is proven.

Having not been elsewhere for long enough to get into trouble I can't say how it is elsewhere, but I can say that from this side of the large puddle called the Atlantic Ocean it has always seemed that the police forces in the UK were of a much higher moral and civic standard than ours. I sincerely hope that is correct. I simply find it appalling what has happened here in my lifetime, things like last night's local newscast. A person who had been arrested and was handcuffed managed to slip away at the local jail- bad enough press for 'professional law enforcement' in itself. (I helped build that facility and I can assure you that escape from it can happen only when it is allowed by incompetence; it is a very secure place as it should be!). Then comes the video of machine-gun toting cops searching for him- yes, fully automatic machine guns deployed in densely populated residential areas where any unstopped bullets are very likely to cause some innocent person harm, even though the person they were seeking was handcuffed and unarmed. And the cops see nothing wrong in acting like this, nor do the courts. If it takes them machine guns to handle a single unarmed handcuffed man who they already allowed to escape through their own stupidity and they think this OK, what do you think about them? They shouldn't even be allowed to carry a pocket-knife, much less a firearm (and certainly not a machine-gun) if they can't see how wrong they are. Perhaps we'd be safer with them in jail; our well-armed populace could better handle the far less dangerous criminals much better without dangerous stupid people like these involved :ugh:

There's nothing left here for the average person to desire, no reason to see the US as an example of anything except what happens when the people become complacent about their government and allow it to run over them :eek:

Windy Militant
22nd Mar 2014, 12:25
There used to be a nice little scam going where dealers were busted with, say, 5 keys of coke and would be charged with procession of one key.

The dealers couldn't really stand up in court and say, "WTF, I had five keys!" could they?


An ex school friend of a mate did just that in Oxford. He'd been done a couple of times before for possession, so knew he was going down on this occasion and when the the prosecution said he had x amount in his possession he did ask what happened to the rest of his stash! It caused no end of trouble. Especially when the Oxford mail started to ask questions!

Solid Rust Twotter
22nd Mar 2014, 16:33
Our lot have been known to rent their service firearms to bank robbers, hijackers and other assorted miscreants. That is when they're not actually taking part in the skullduggery themselves...


Tales of firearms handed in on various amnesties being sold to bad guys out the back door before the person handing it in was back home are legion.

airship
22nd Mar 2014, 17:27
papershuffler wrote: (Unfortunately, I'm well out of it due to ill health :sad: )

Sorry to hear about your ill-health. Hope your current pursuits are eventually more rewarding and fruitful. No, really, I'm being sincere... ;)

moosp
22nd Mar 2014, 19:10
Saw man is right on the Patriot Act. One of the most un-patriotic pieces of legislation pushed through Congress and Senate in the history of the USA.

I read an assessment that fewer than six congressmen and four senators even read it before they voted it. To be fair to them they were only allowed around four days and it is massive.

An appalling piece of legislation.

Perhaps police are like politicians, you get the ones that society deserves.

airship
23rd Mar 2014, 01:30
Tribute to all cops (straight or otherwise), and commiserations to those who only got to drive Hillman Avengers or Ford Escorts instead of the real cop cars (V8s) as featured:

Hill Street Blues - Emmy Tribute - 1987 - YouTube

Hey! Let's all be careful out there...! :ok:

Nervous SLF
23rd Mar 2014, 20:02
I copied and pasted some of the worst parts to a friend in the U.S. and here is his reply.

Hello *****,

My first impression is "WOW!!" I have no idea who wrote this piece, nor the blog that it came from, but I can state that it is greatly exaggerated in some parts, and out and out wrong on others. It is true that sometimes police take things to the extreme, but considering the size of our police forces, those events are very rare. I have friends who are active policemen, and some retired, and I have never heard anything like what is mentioned below. When on occasion when I have had contact with any of the police departments in our metropolitan area, and even state troopers, I have only been treated with courtesy and respect. It is true that the current administration has taken the monitoring of citizens to a greater extreme, but changes are coming. Every day thousands of tourists come to the US, and write about what a friendly people the Americans are (especially Texans), and the positive experiences they've had. Too bad these are ignored, and the few sour ones exploited.

Burnie5204
24th Mar 2014, 00:25
Airship wrote:
Whilst I still have the utmost respect for every / any police officer I ever come across these days, I find your statistics somewhat suspect. You explain that just 0.28% (out of 120,000 total fellow serving police officers) are "bent". That would only be 336 officers (or 600 at the higher 0.5% you mentioned). Are they still "serving"?*

1) Are (UK) police officers more "bent" than the average population (according to last UK census in 2011, the UK had a population of about 63,182,000) which might mean that upto 177,000 UK citizens might / should be behind bars (which don't serve real ale). A real figure for the UK (excluding Scotland and northern Ireland) in 2001 was an average of 148 people incarcerated per 100,000 population = 0.15% (compared to "bent" coppers of 0.28%).*

2) Then again, many "crimes" in these categories (I also include corporate corruption - petty theft, personal expenses being submitted as corporate expenses for reimbursement, and even payment of bribes etc.) which are actually committed may never be reported or investigated. It wouldn't surprise me if just 1 in 10 ever result in a complaint, let alone result in any official police investigations. Most of those involved preferring Omertà and even if there are many witnesses, they too preferring to remain "silent" for whatever reason...*

3) Presumably, when it comes to police officers, much depends on their activities. The*eponymous*British "Bobby" walking the beat cannot be directly compared to say, the detective specialising in drug-enforcement undercover or whatever (where they might have far greater temptations). It was only about 6 months ago that the French simply and completely dis-banded a whole police department operating in Marseille.

I'm not attempting to denigrate all police officers (wherever they are on the Planet). If only so as to not attract their attention to airship...?!*

The 0.28% was supposedly arrived at as the best estimate of the combination of those who get caught and those not yet caught (i.e. it includes the best estimates to include the number still serving)

However, your own figures are off. You use the 0.15% of the population who are currently incarcerated in jail - what about those currently on Licence, on suspended sentences, on tag, on conditional discharge, on community sentences and those who are bang at it but haven't been caught yet? Because the 0.28% includes the estimated number of officers that haven't been caught.

I'll give you a clue - the overwhelming majority of criminals don't get prison sentences. These days it has to be a VERY serious offence to get prison time in the UK (ridiculous stories of grannies locked up for not paying TV Licence excepted)

So 0.28% of cops are 'bent' but the proportion of people currently subject to a Criminal Justice Sentence of some form plus the number out committing offences who have not been caught is MUCH higher.