what happened to camouflage ?

[typerated]

I can see that as low level tactics have made way for higher altitude ops that aircraft have tended to be painted lighter greys, such as what has happened to the RAF mud mover fleets over the last decade or so. But it now seems almost all military aircraft in the west are devoid of any form of disruptive camouflage scheme. If two or more tones of paint are used they are joined with essentially straight lines. And if there are different tones used they are just different shades of grey - greens and browns seem to have disappeared completely.


Can anyone shed any light on why camouflage patterns have disappeared (no pun intended)?

I was surprised that the dazzle schemes produced by Keith Ferris in the 1980s never caught on, they seemed like they would be very effective. Still, the Canadians implemented the false canopy on their Hornets - can anyone comment on how effective it was to operate against?

[Runaway Gun]

Cost cutting is one reason, believe it or not.

I've seen different squadrons and types all go to the one shade of paint.

[BEagle]

It's an example of 'jointery' making optimal use of the UK's defence resources.

When John Major was PM, his office decided that rationilization was needed and turned to him for leadership...

"Grey. I like grey. Grey is good. Pass me the peas please, Norma. Grey. Oh yes, absolutely. Have we got any grey?"

Now many year ago, it was RN tradition to paint everything and anything a fetching tone of battleship grey. So the Great Lord Pusser ordered lots of paint. Millions and millions of tins of the stuff. But then along came defence cuts and soon there was rather more paint than ships.

But Pusser was a wily cove. "Mr Major - I have a solution. You can paint the RAF's aeroplanes with some of my nice grey paint. I've got plenty to spare. You won't need to paint them in two-shades-of-sh*t, shiny white, hemp, brown or anything else. Just grey, lovely grey!"

"Thank you - I shall see that it is done"

And lo, it was.

Except for the trainers. They used the black paint which Pusser had left over from the bit below the waterline of his old battleships. But there wasn't quite enough left in Pusser's locker, so the ageing old Dominies were painted to look like a skunk, with some of Pusser's finest white flagpole-paint on the fuselage top surface.

But Pusser's paint was too heavy for the wretched little rented plastic pigs to which the RAF turned for elementary flying training when they could no longer afford to buy their own aeroplanes, so they are au naturel in Bundesweiss fibreglass...

[Innominate]

Were disruptive schemes more effective when aircraft were parked in the open than when they were airborne? With the move to HASs and the lack of a counter-air threat, the need for camouflage patterns may have diminished; painting a single colour would take less time - and therefore reduce costs.

[typerated]

Funny BEagle! Made me laugh.

[Saratogapp]

The cost cutting story is likely to be correct. In Darwin a couple of years ago, I spent some time with a contractor painting cammo on many of the army's vehicles and there is no doubt that it's a very time consuming and exacting process. The various shades and shapes are very precise in their layout but of course, to the man-in-the-street, they appear to be random.

[Dengue_Dude]

'Moral Superiority grey'

Hmm - developing BEagle's theme.

I like it, definitely the colour for the RAF's remaining flying machine . . .

[Wensleydale]

I also understand that the recent "paint job" is for effective hiding throughout the whole electromagnetic spectrum rather than just the visual portion of it.

[Haraka]

Just a couple of points that might be of some interest.

"Barley Grey" is nothing to do with wheat, being named after the British gent who concocted it.

"Ghost Gray" is nothing to do directly with looking like a ghost, rather coming out of the "Compass Ghost" camouflage project in the Vietnam era.

The KC10 grey scheme of some years ago was initially left over paint at Mac Air ( allegedly :)), before all the "European One" etc. stuff kicked in retroactively.

As the Human Visual system can only (IIRC) realistically separate about 60 grey levels under varying conditions of contrast and illumination anyway ...........
It all sounds like a bit of a scam to me.

[ShyTorque]

Modern aircraft don't need low level camouflage because they go so fast. They swoop down from on high at the speed of light and the enemy only have time to think "Wassat?"

Before they realise it's an attacking aircraft it has dropped the weapons and zoomed back in to the heavens.

My aged aunt's cousin used to live next door to a pilot so it must be true.

[NutLoose]

The Canadians have gone back to using it on their new Chinooks, nice scheme too

CH-147F Chinook | Helicopter | Aircraft | Royal Canadian Air Force (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/ch-147f.page)


BTW
With the Georgia situation ongoing it is surprising to see a lot on both sides wearing British DPM on the news.

[gr4techie]

I suppose now that radar technology is good and aircraft have IR sensors. The colour is irrelevant .

I never understood why Nimrods were painted that hemp colour?

[NutLoose]

Want that a mixture of high and low altitude and on concrete pan Camo, no point painting it Camo then sitting it on a huge concrete apron.

Similar to the low level pink photo recon spits, they found it was the best Camo for ground fire low on the horizon.

[Norma Stitz]

Hemp was good for large aircraft parked on concrete aprons at ISK, Marham, St. Mawgan, Brize, etc...but only for the naked eye. Trouble is ISK also had a hangar painted brightly in the 80s so you could see for it miles, giving the game away should you have wished to fly your BACKFIRE 'feet dry' instead of fire some ungentlemanly stand-off weapon.

As always the US led, and still lead, the way on camo to defeat sensors of various kinds, including Mk.1 eyeball and IR. Greys provided a middle ground solution to the 'whilst airborne' and 'while on the ground' problem of hiding a plane as best you can. Squadron and national markings were also much reduced in size and sometimes colour due to the IR signature of the decal once applied out of the large water dish and onto the airframe. Look at the daft finishes on F-22 and F-35 now to see what's coming our way in a few short years....unless the F-35 is cancelled of course:ugh:

Until you've heard a Sidewinder growl in your ears as a SAC stood with a lit match just a few feet in front of the aircraft in a non-official demo test, you'd think all this IR stuff was make believe!

[Norma Stitz]

Haraka you said: "The KC10 grey scheme of some years ago was initially left over paint at Mac Air ( allegedly ), before all the "European One" etc. stuff kicked in retroactively."

All KC-10As were initially delivered white upper/grey lower fuselage, they then went to the predominant dark green scheme from 1985 (including new builds) before eventually taking the mid-grey camp from 1992-93.

[NutLoose]

We used to use a torch to test them.

[MPN11]

We worked with camouflage in the now-defunct "Survival to Operate" office in ACAS's empire, and indeed were visited by Mr Barley.

Amongst the assorted old items in our office library was a WW2 Camouflage Manual, which noted that disruptive patterns (in hangars) needed to be a minimum of 10 yards across (or some similar figure) to be effective at any distance. Anything smaller would just resolve into a "dark shape" with no disruptive capability at all.

The cute little wiggly lines on aircraft are/were almost pointless unless being examined through a cam net at a range of a few hundred yards. ;)

In addition, one needs to consider the background (dark or light, sky or ground) and the AOB of the aircraft. Bank 90º and your wiggly dark two-tone top scheme gets replaced by light underside (sky) scheme. So one size does''t fit all, especially in the case of manoeuvring fast jets. The Hemp scheme for Nimrod and Tankers was evolved to provide some colour conformity with concrete airfield surfaces when on the ground (As Nutloose has said while I was typing!) ... an airborne scheme not deemed necessary, as the aircraft would not (hopefully) operate in hostile airspace.

We did discuss with Mr Barley the idea of "one wing dark on top and the other light" and reversing that on the underside. Similar treatment for fuselage sections. But BIG areas. The idea was that in a manoeuvring fight, the mix of dark/light effects might serve to confuse the aggressor as to which side was up and which way it was turning. We were going to commission a trial job on a Hawk to determine usefulness, but then The Wall came down and our Team was disbanded.

[NutLoose]

I read somewhere about the Vulcan on exercise in the USA or Canada, they had a light underside and although the upper Camo worked well at low level, when in a sharp bank the underside was exposed resulting in it being seen from miles away, therefore they applied a wrap around scheme in the field so to speak.. It still didn't get around the fact that the damn thing cast a visible shadow that could be seen for miles.

[SASless]

If they get it too good....how would we find our own airplanes?:E

The US Army does not waste money on such projects....they stick to Tent, (GP, Medium) Tint and keep marching.

[chopper2004]

The Dutch new CH-47F are grey as well , think their remaining As532UL Cougar fleet one or two are painted grey (I think?!) and the Swedes As332M.

From the first days in Op Enduring Freedom noticed a lot of aircrew had mix/match standard NATO green survival vests and desert sand colored flight suits unlike a decade earlier in Desert Storm all had sand coloured combat survival vests and matching flight suits.

Back in Desert Storm, the USMC AH-1W/UH-1N and OV-10A were in desert camou and the AV-8B we're in mottled grey / light blue / sand as with our 'pink' strike aircraft and helos and AAC. Islander pair and Tristar and Victor tankers lol

Also in the ground wise, the US have white pick ups, crew vans, some trucks , some 4 x 4 , obligatory white and red striped paramedic GMC ambulances on their bases while the only white vehicles I've seen on our bases have been the Bedford ambulance and the new Pinzgauer off road 6 wheeler ambulance!

[The Helpful Stacker]

what happened to camouflage ?

He passed away last night.

"Woah-oh-oh-oh, Camouflage....."

;)

[BEagle]

Indeed, The Helpful Stacker!

For all oo-rah mreeenkaww viewers:

?v=VgRXdozljRs

[N2erk]

Off topic as usual, we used to have nice white flying helmets- mine was a Mk3?- visor like a Mk1,and nice white gloves. Then it was decreed helmets and gloves should be tactical green - Harrier dispersal inspired I think. So now that aircraft are grey, are the helmets and gloves also???

[Haraka]

As always the US led, and still lead, the way on camo to defeat sensors of various kinds, including Mk.1 eyeball and IR
British Aircraft camouflaging started in 1907 with dazzle painting on the wings of a Dunne D1 biplane, with the khaki green upper surface camouflage coming in during 1916. By this time, the Germans were using close patterned dots to give a grey shade illusion leading on to full multi-colour camouflage and the extremely innovative hexagonal camouflage by 1917, using basically pointillist theory to provide an illusion to match the background ( be it land, sea or air ). This, incidentally, is a direct precursor in theory to the digital camouflage systems of the last 20 years or so. They also experimented with optical stealth using transparent coverings on aircraft .
The United States of course, totally lacking an aircraft industry of any consequence in WW1, used British and French aircraft when they finally entered the conflict in 1917 .These usually retained their British and French designed camouflage schemes, with American national markings merely placed over the positioning of the French or British originator's cockades, the USA not having got to the stage of implementing its own aircraft camouflage schemes during that conflict, nor , indeed for many years after.

[SASless]

Next thing you know Haraka will be claiming the Brits created "Light"!:oh:

[MPN11]

Avoiding any hand bagging about who and when, I believe it is a reasonable assumption on my part that aircraft cam in WW1, and indeed WW2, is a slightly different scenario than today's. Operating profiles is one thing, the 'threat' is another.

Things have changed a bit since "Happy Birthday, RFC" :cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

Hemp was good for large aircraft parked on concrete aprons at ISK, Marham, St. Mawgan, Brize, etc...but only for the naked eye. Trouble is ISK also had a hangar painted brightly in the 80s so you could see for it miles, giving the game away should you have wished to fly your BACKFIRE 'feet dry' instead of fire some ungentlemanly stand-off weapon.

Camouflage of aircraft in UK and painting HAS green was always a load of b*locks. Everything paints green and hangars and HAS make wonderful radar reflectors.

At warp 6 a Backfire will be steady on its bomb run well before aircraft on the ground can be seen even in daylight. If we imagined that Backfires would attempt low level attacks in UK by daylight then we were dreaming. Tacevals should have been run at night not in broad daylight.

[CoffmanStarter]

It would seem that Digital/Pixel Camouflage for aircraft is the next fashion statement :8

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zpsd9b1faf0.jpg

Also called HyperStealth Technology ... apparently to be applied via templates to aircraft. The above pic is "simulated" to show what a Jordanian F-16 could look like ... Looks and sounds expensive :eek:

More here ...

HyperStealth goes Supersonic - Digital Camouflage for Mach 2+ (http://www.hyperstealth.com/supersonic/)

[HAS59]

The Hemp colour was not designed to camouflage our large aircraft from attacking enemy bombers.
It was a measure designed to make our aircraft harder to detect on Soviet Medium resolution reconnaissance satellites – which it did.
It forced ‘Old Joe Vodka’ to launch more of his High Resolution Satellites to do the same job.
And in doing so was another step to them becoming bankrupt – which is what ended the Cold War.

[NutLoose]

Tacevals should have been run at night not in broad daylight.

And ideally about 5 minutes in duration as most airfields would be glowing dust after that.

[skydiver69]

This is what happened to Camouflage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYxCIr-Byo

[barnstormer1968]

THS said:

Quote:
what happened to camouflage ?
He passed away last night.

"Woah-oh-oh-oh, Camouflage....."

Absolutely priceless. Best and funniest post for me this years so far :)

[Haraka]

Next thing you know Haraka will be claiming the Brits created "Light"!
Not at all , we concede John Wayne won WW2, didn't he?
(Let's not let inconvenient facts ever get in the way of popular U.S. propaganda and self-delusion )

In other words SASless, you having decided to grandstand to us all in #25 and choosing to disparage my remarks in #24 , I now invite you to challenge me on any of the specific comments I made in that post.

Over to you :)

[TEEEJ]

Typerated wrote

Still, the Canadians implemented the false canopy on their Hornets - can anyone comment on how effective it was to operate against?

Photos: McDonnell Douglas CF-188A Hornet (CF-18A) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Canada---Air/McDonnell-Douglas-CF-188A/0931656/L)

Some other examples of the false canopy.

RAF Jaguar GR.1 Op Granby

RAF Jaguar: Fighter jets in desert colours during Desert Storm conflict fol - London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/standard-pictures/iraq--allied-forces-7366986.html?action=gallery&ino=6)

Hungarian Air Force Gripen

Photos: Saab JAS-39C Gripen Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hungary---Air/Saab-JAS-39C-Gripen/1776386/L)

Hungarian Air Force MiG-29

Photos: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hungary---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-29/1254873/L/)

Spanish Air Force Mirage F.1 (Canopy and Helmet)

Photos: Dassault Mirage F1CE(M) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain---Air/Dassault-Mirage-F1CE(M)/1856586/L)

Italian Navy AV-8B Harrier

Photos: McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II+ Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy---Navy/McDonnell-Douglas-AV-8B/2097101/L)

A-10

Photos: Fairchild A-10C Thunderbolt II Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/Fairchild-A-10C-Thunderbolt/2040330/L)

[typerated]

I never realised anyone else copied the idea.


Certainly never realised our Jags had them - surely not the whole fleet in Desert Storm?


Seems the sort of thing you would paint on just before the jets are sent on ops.

[gr4techie]

http://www.airventure.de/classicfighter_NZ_2005pics/Blenheim05_Stefan_Pfalz.JPG

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e108/spitfirexiv/Tirpitz6A.jpg

[Saintsman]

I thought that they are still painted that way.

It's just that you can't see them...

[Laarbruch72]

the new Pinzgauer off road 6 wheeler ambulance!

Belive it or not that vehicle has been in RAF service for nearly ten years now. Far from new!

[SASless]

I don't suppose the underwing stores and main gear Tires (Tyres) would be a slight giveaway on the A-10 when viewed by an Eagle-Eyed Fighter Pilot?

Surely, Teddy Taliban with his trusty RPG would tweak to which side was up!

[SomeGuyOnTheDeck]

Do Teddy Taliban's RPG's only work if the plane is the right way up, SASless?

[500N]

Would it matter to Terry Taliban ?

[Laarbruch72]

"Do Teddy Taliban's RPG's only work if the plane is the right way up, SASless?"

The Taliban don't use RPGs to target aircraft, the weapon isn't suited for that, it's an anti-armour / anti-vehicle weapon. It's comparable to trying to use a 9mm handgun to bring down a bird of prey at a few hundred feet. Just a waste of ammunition.

[barnstormer1968]

IF they don't use it that is a good thing. Lots of other groups have successfully used RPG's to bring down helicopters for several decades.

I remember watching a film showing a Viet cong instructor showing students how to 'aim off' in order to hit Huey's when taking off or landing.

The Blackhawk crews in Somalia may have also differed on the effectiveness of the RPG7 in anti helicopter ops.

[Hangarshuffle]

Didn't the Iraq shoot a green Lynx down over Basra with an RPG? Opportunistic shot?

[awblain]

Haraka,

Not at all , we concede John Wayne won WW2, didn't he?

Didn't that get updated post-Marion?

Ronald Reagan is usually now cited as being responsible singled-handed for winning every war of the 20th century.

[BBadanov]

RPG can be an effective weapon against a helo in the hover, at an LG for instance.
Along as it is under 1 km, may have a chance. Several helos were lost to RPGs in Iraq and Afgh.

[awblain]

What happened to camouflage on the ground?

The routine availability of infrared imaging.

How good are the Afghans with RPGs?
Better than anyone else, given nearly 35 years of practice.

[SASless]

The Taliban don't use RPGs to target aircraft,

How many examples do you want going clear back to 1967 in my absolute certain knowledge!

My Unit lost a Chinook to an RPG hit as it was lifting off with a downed Huey Cobra....I shall start the clock there as I know first hand that it happened.

Google "Tammy Duckworth"....that was a Black Hawk in Iraq.

Then google "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell....that happened in Afghanistan.

RPG's are very effective against Helicopters.

Read up on how modern day RPG's work with advanced fusing capabilities to achieve an Air Burst.

Then perhaps you will understand a bit more about how very effective the modern RPG can be. We just wish we had something as good as the RPG the Oppo's use against us.

[Martin the Martian]

The one thing I could never understand was the change from dark sea grey on FAA aircraft, which was applied for operations in the North Atlantic -and which would have been their main operating area had the Cold war heated up- to medium sea grey during the mid-late 1980s. I believe that the darker painted SHARs in the South Atlantic were considered to have a much more effective paint scheme than the lighter coloured aircraft despatched later, which wasw why after the war dark sea grey was applied to SHARS, Sea Kings, Lynxes, Wasps and even Hunters. The same lighter colours were also applied to the Buccaneer in the late 1980s, which again wouldn't seem to be an effective camouflage for on the deck ops over the North Sea.

What I also find interesting is why, with a transition to predominantly medium level operations, a return to PRU or azure blue has not been considered for tactical aircraft. At low level it would not have made them more conspicuous than the existing light grey?

I admit that as a modeller the idea of a Tornado in overall PRU blue is a very attractive one.:8

Mind, I always thought Fifty Shades of Grey was a paint chart for modern military aircraft and was convinced it was in the wrong section at the bookshop until I peeped inside.:ooh:

[gr4techie]

It always amused me that they paint huge aircraft hangars an olive green colour. I also remember seeing faded disruptive paint on the outside wall of a building at Coningsby ( JR mess perhaps)? But how could anyone fail to spot such a large green box?

The Swiss have a neat idea with putting aircraft in subterranean caverns.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/5949_-_Meiringen_viewed_from_the_Rothorn_-_Meiringen_Air_Force_Base.jpg/640px-5949_-_Meiringen_viewed_from_the_Rothorn_-_Meiringen_Air_Force_Base.jpg

[Laarbruch72]

Regarding the replies on RPG versus helicopters (particularly slow moving or in the hover), I wasn't discussing that at all. The question was about an RPG versus an A10. When I referred to aircraft I meant fixed wing, in hindsight maybe I could have been clearer.

[TEEEJ]

Typerated,

South African Air Force use of false canopy

Cheetah

Note top surface diamond shaped camo is also reflected on the underside.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/XBnCg.jpg

Topside

Photos: Atlas Cheetah C Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/South-Africa--/Atlas-Cheetah-C/2063803/L)

Gripen

Photos: Saab JAS-39D Gripen Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/South-Africa--/Saab-JAS-39D-Gripen/1804241/L)

[NutLoose]

Gr4tech, that boat is small fry, they camouflaged the whole of the Lockheed factory in the USA to make it look like a housing estate during the war, lots of pictures here.

Lockheed Factory USA Camouflage (http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/aviation-history-general/lockheed-factory-usa-camouflage-16393/)

Hangars

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/394891-The-best-camouflaged-hangar-in-the-war!!!-(-)-Forums

[NutLoose]

They also trialled dazzle paint on the P51 that was used on ships, see

Dazzle camouflage - Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111292)

[minigundiplomat]

The Taliban don't use RPGs to target aircraft, the weapon isn't suited for that, it's an anti-armour / anti-vehicle weapon. It's comparable to trying to use a 9mm handgun to bring down a bird of prey at a few hundred feet. Just a waste of ammunition.


I can assure you the above statement is complete pump, from repeated personal experience, as can most of the Chinook Force.


I suggest you stick to keeping the EFI safe, and leave the Talibans TTP's to those who make it past the perimeter fence.

[Davef68]

The Hemp colour was not designed to camouflage our large aircraft from attacking enemy bombers.
It was a measure designed to make our aircraft harder to detect on Soviet Medium resolution reconnaissance satellites – which it did.
It forced ‘Old Joe Vodka’ to launch more of his High Resolution Satellites to do the same job.
And in doing so was another step to them becoming bankrupt – which is what ended the Cold War.

Mmm, bearing in mind the current events, perhaps it didn't end, they just took some time out.

Re the original post, the RAF C130 fleet is heading back to green again (slowly) but the reason the paint schemes have changed is that the threats have changed - with most NATO mud moving aircraft zipping about at low levels during the 'Cold War', the A2A threat from above meant that a 'land' scheme was more effective for attack aircraft (witness the green adopted by the Harrier II fleet originally)*.

With that diminished, or non-existent, the need was for a scheme less visible from the ground or in a higher level A2A. A USMC mate tells of seeing the first of their grey AV-8Bs taking off alongside one of their 'RAF-style' camouflaged ones. The 'dark' one was vsisble for some time after take off, where as the grey (or gray) one disappeared into the murk fairly quickly.

*The need for manouvering low level aircraft to have an overall scheme was well illustrated in san carlos, when Argentine aircraft banked away and revealed their light undersides against the dark surrounding hills.

[Haraka]

I can assure you the above statement is complete pump, from repeated personal experience, as can most of the Chinook Force.

......and some on the Wessex in days of yore.

P.S. Minimouselaundromat or whatever, did you bother to read # 51 before letting rip from the hip?

[Marcantilan]

Not very related to cammo, but aircraft painting.

A guy I know was in charge of one of two Sea Kings, which were tasked from the mainland to the Malvinas (Falklands for English speakers), to perform a MEDEVAC (it happened on May 1982).

The Sea Kings were painted on USN light gray, unsuitable for night ops. So they decided to paint both A/C with dark blue. Unfourtunely, the paint and time only covered ONE helo.

So departed one dark blue, other light gray. He kept thinking: great, the Brits are going to aim at the gray blue, own forces are likely to aim at the darker one. In any case, they avoided ALL forces until announced (several several times) they were near to land.

They returned safely, also.

[OldAgeandTreachery]

Cammo and aircraft painting.
Surely the best known of all of the "modern" camouflage schemes must be Nimrod XV246: The Brown Bomber or The Flying Mars Bar as it was variously known.

I did hear of a trial in RAFG which was a mix of aircraft with a variety of paint schemes. Canberra in green,VC10 in grey and Nimrod in hemp;there may have been more.They were parked on a hardstanding and were snapped by airborne cameras. The one which stood out was the hemp Nimrod. Did this then bring on the grey/blue colouring?

[MPN11]

Tarmac or concrete hard standing? Just asking, I assure you ;)

[fallmonk]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/fallmonk/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/B433FD47-4411-4586-87DE-5FAF5E0A464F.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fallmonk/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/B433FD47-4411-4586-87DE-5FAF5E0A464F.jpg.html)always liked this picture of a very effective camouflage scheme,

[Rigga]

....anybody seen MH370's camoflage?

[MPN11]

Fallmonk ... Yup, great photo.

However, from 25 ft against that background it looks great. Could you see the separate spots from, say, 2,000 ft above? Or indeed the rocks on the ground?

Just teasing :ok:

[Haraka]

Anybody remember the trials done (I think involving the Dutch, who have done a lot of work on camouflage, including thermal IR), where disruptive patterned F-16's were parked and then imaged on disruptive patterned concrete pans?

[CoffmanStarter]

Rigga ...

Something like this :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/switchbladengc/stealth1.jpg

Hat, Coat ... Door ...

[OldAgeandTreachery]

MPN11 - Assume it would have been concrete. Didn't think tarmac was normally used for hardstandings.

Seem to recall the northern dispersal at Kinloss was painted to give an impression of aircraft parked. Dark colour and vague outline of something on the ground. To do with perceptions at low level and high speed?
Anyone with more info?

[MPN11]

OAAT ... i regret my handle on the Cammo work in the office was limited. i know he borrowed a big pro video camera from somewhere, and poked of to KSS, but he didn't share much info.
I was only the Boss, so apparently I didn't need to know details :sad:

There was so much we could have done, multi-spectrally. We had some great, cheap, schemes brewing on the back burner. But it all fizzled out. Bloody Sovs. ;)

[TEEEJ]

U.S. Air Force LTV A-7D Corsair II fighters from the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing disappear against the camouflaged hardstand at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base, in October 1972.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/A-7D_Corsairs_354th_TFW_at_Korat_1972.JPG/627px-A-7D_Corsairs_354th_TFW_at_Korat_1972.JPG

Military camouflage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_camouflage)

[Al R]

TEEEJ,

Only as strong as your weakest link? Effective, but a quick burst of tracer into one of those discrete yellow bowsers and it wouldn't matter if you saw the jets or not!

[HAS59]

Haraka,

Ex Tartan Shadow was conducted at Kinloss in 1992. Nimrods were parked adjacent to seemingly abstract sharp edged shapes painted onto the toned down concrete. Some shapes were lighter 'concrete' colour, others were black.
We got the local Buccaneer guys to come over at various heights and speeds (without telling them what to expect) to see what they made of them.

The general consensus was that the 'shapes' were easy to tell apart from the real Nimrods, which was no great surprise. However, on their first encounter with the shapes they were momentarily distracted, wondering what they were. The scientists who came up with the shapes were delighted at this, as that apparently was what they had been hoping to achieve.

and then, just like everything else ... it was all forgotten ... and someone will re-invent it in another decade or so ...

[Haraka]

Thanks HAS 59,
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise a first pass.

[Haraka]

Thanks HAS 59,
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise commitment on a first pass.

[bspatz]

As I recall one of the revelations during Exercise Tartan Shadow was that a significant part of the pan at Kinloss had been resurfaced with a black bitumen which meant that the Nimrod hemp camouflage, which was optimised for 'toned down' concrete, now stood out like the proverbial DBs.

[MPN11]

"Momentary Distraction" was part of our Team's focus. Dropping unguided munitions from high speed/low level doesn't give too many options for last-moment corrections.

Other airfield Cam ideas being bounced around included:


Long lines of wheeled frames, fitted with plastic "hedgerows" and radar reflectors. Tow into the midfield to confuse visual cues and try to stop the airfield being a visual and radar hole in the landscape.
Contrasting grass treatments to either create cam patterns, or attempt to duplicate existing surface areas.
Multi-spectral decoy aircraft
Near off-base dispersal of aircraft, away from the obvious targets of HAS sites and dispersals
... and even trying to establish dummy airfields nearby using radar reflectors and other techniques.

[HAS59]

Bspatz,

you are quite right about the Hemp planes standing out on the black pan.

This was a classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing.

On the one hand we were trying to make the aircraft blend in tonally with their existing backgrounds, in order to make them more difficult to detect from space. Which is where the Hemp colour (or tone) came from.
The information regarding tone from this trial was also used by the Air Defenders when deciding the shade of grey to use. But that's another story.

On the other hand there was the RAF Airfield Tone Down team who's job seemed to be to paint everything green, buildings vehicles and vertical structures. The concrete taxiways and hardstandings were as you know covered in black bitumen. No doubt this made the airfield infrastructure harder to detect but ...

One day the RAF might get it's act together.:rolleyes:

[Wander00]

I think I posted a while back that when in RAF Hospital Ely(of blessed memory) in the 60s there was a wg cdr on our ward who said he had designed the Vulcan camouflage scheme, based on his initials.

[JFZ90]

I had the pleasure of interviewing Mr P Barley just after Gulf War I.

Things I remember (though it was a long time ago!):

1. Barley grey was all about contrast against the sky - beyond a few kms, colour becomes irrelevant to visual detection.

2. Countershading was tried - lighter undersides/darker on top - like the early Eurofighter prototypes (DA2 etc.). This again was to reduce contrast. Mr Barley delighted in telling me about how he had pioneered this in the UK using an Airfix 1:24 scale Harrier GR1 plastic kit stuck on top of what was then the Institute of Aviation Medicine near the old ETPS. I saw the pictures - true story!

3. Contrast is also the reason hawks are black - when compared against e.g. high vis SAR helo yellow, black is actually much easier to see with the Mk1 eyeball at several km ranges. So the hawks ditched the red/white and went black for safety (anti-collision, hence anti-camo) reasons. I think there were discussions about painting the sea kings black for the same reason.

4. Hemp Nimrods replaced the comically obvious gloss white roofs that were visible for miles when they were parked on the pan.

5. Psuedo "False canopies" went on the Jags for GWI - he was proud of that. I think they just painted the nose gear door black.

6. Trials were done on active light based camo on 1/4 scale tornados (ex spin tunnel models I think). Film was quite good.

Nice chap. Interesting time to be at Farnborough!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

a significant part of the pan at Kinloss had been resurfaced with a black bitumen

I bet that was fun after a few gallons of AVTUR had dripped over it.

[OafOrfUxAche]

One day the RAF might get it's act together


I can assure you that this has now happened. Look at Kinloss now and you will find it very hard to detect either the Nimrods or an active airfield...

[Wizzard]

"I didn't see you in camouflage class this morning Bloggs!"

"Thank you Sir"

[goofer3]

Can't think what his initials are.........:confused:

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae294/goofer33/XM571_35SqnVulcan_zpsc0527aa0.jpg

[GarryH]

Hello, aviators!

I am not a pilot myself, but I am a former RAF NCO whose responsibility was to supervise the painting of RAF aircraft (1987 - 2006).

Camouflage paint paint schemes were primarily incorporated to all strike attack aircraft and primarily low level attack aircraft that operated in a European type wooded/forested terrain and would be making low level passes to attack targets. The Tornado GR1, (the aircraft I first worked in 1987 at TTTE Cottesmore) is a good example of this.

Flying low level to avoid radar detection, the Tornado bombers would be tasked with racing to targets low level to get off their nuclear payloads. Believe it or not, it proved very effective and did indeed break down the visual image to other to fighter pilots scanning them to shoot them down thus giving the crew vital seconds to select reheat and get out of harms way and to hopefully avoid lock on from weapons systems.

Other aircraft types in other roles would also be painted `wet on wet` disruptive pattern schemes to avoid visual detection from below and above and for the same reasons. Obviously, the Tornado force had to repainted to a desert sand scheme for Op` Granby (the first modern oil war) thus blending in from visual detection. Other surface coatings can be applied also in order to break up and distort radar cross section images (that were applied to the GR1 for deployment to the Gulf) in order to again give the aircrew more vital seconds to deploy the payload and then get away.

The same concept is true of aircraft in other roles like the Tornado F3 (an air defender) with to or 3 shads of grey to again provide a visual blind spot to other aircraft when viewed from above, below and side on. Again, surprisingly, it does work.

The Gulf 1 oil war proved that, in the post Cold War era, that ultra low level flying is dangerous and and the role of the Tornado as a low level bomber was adjusted to other tasks (ground attack recon`, maritime defense etc) thus the grey and green disruptive pattern was not really required as seen now in the Tornado GR4 variant where they deploy weapons from high altitude from laser guided aiming systems thus I don`t really think that the disappearance of the grey and green camo` paint scheme has much to do with cost!

Still, I left the RAF in 2006 and have never really settled anywhere for long and now I reside in Georgia in the USA working as a security guard for pea nuts, with people I can`t stand and miss the UK more and more each day.......I just camouflage my true feelings though and do it very well!

Cheers guys!

Garry Harriman
Grovetown, Ga, USA
RAF 1987- 2006

[Stanwell]

Thanks for your post, Garry.
Hope to hear more from you on this or any other topic of interest to you.

[Pontius Navigator]

In the late 60s a Tech Grade Civil Servant, interested in camouflage, tried to find the RAF policy for camouflage and found there was no consistent policy. Was the purpose to conceal them on the ground or inflight? If inflight, on what mission or terrain.

It was done on a Looks about right basis which was why Middle East TacT had a similar scheme to the V-Force but brown on brown with a white aim here cockpit on a one style fits all basis.

He trialled a water based application and concealled a C130 on the Kingsfield Strip in Cyprus. IIRC it was painted pink overall. I believe his work led to Harriers assigned to AAFNorth getting temporary white dazzle and RAFG Lightnings green overall for ground concealment.

Of the Mk 1 Nimrod it was observed that they were painted just like sea birds only upside down.

[India Four Two]

Speaking of CF-18s, I saw this nice retro scheme at an airshow last summer:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswnqx6huj.jpeg

Not so good as a winter scheme though!

More pictures here, including the fake canopy:

Canada Celebrates Battle Of Britain With This Stunning CF-18 Hornet (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/canada-celebrates-battle-of-britain-with-this-stunning-1696335406)

[Hipper]

Regarding page 2, post 36, photo of Tirpitz model of a scheme that existed. Something similar was used on Admiral Hipper in Kiel, May 1945:


http://i65.tinypic.com/2qx2mx3.jpg


It didn't help much as can be seen. The RAF just flattened the whole area.