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View Full Version : Can a Jew be a freemason?


Rossian
13th Mar 2014, 09:28
My reason for asking is that, recently, in a Presbyterian cemetry in Bangkok, I came across a grave stone with a Star of David at the top, Hebrew script below it then a section in English telling of this Russian born in 1898 who came to Thailand.

Intriguingly at the bottom was the masonic symbol of the square and compass. I had always thought that the two were incompatible.

Do the square and compass have a significance in Judaism?
I look to the sages of Jet Blast for enlightenment.

The Ancient Mariner

tony draper
13th Mar 2014, 09:33
Weren't the original Masons those who worked on the Temple in Jerusalem?,one assumes they were Jewish,cant see Solomon importing contractors from Poland.
:uhoh:

OFSO
13th Mar 2014, 09:44
Yes, but I don't personally know any who are.

Tony, yes, quite correct.

John Hill
13th Mar 2014, 09:50
Weren't the original Masons those who worked on the Temple in Jerusalem?

Maybe that is the official story but one has to wonder how if that was the case Freemasonry didnt make much of an appearance until about the 17th Century.

Tankertrashnav
13th Mar 2014, 09:53
I dont know whether a Jew can be a Freemason, but a Freemason can certainly be a Jew. I am no longer a member of a masonic lodge, but when I was there were certainly a number of Jews in our lodge, as well as a few Roman Catholics, self included.

Freemasonry admits members of all churches or none, its only requirement being that members must profess a belief in a supreme being, who is referred to as "the Great Architect of the Universe". Only avowed atheists would not be accepted.

In my own case the Roman Catholic church has always taken a dim view of Freemasonry, and I believe membership at one time would lead to excommunication (possibly not now, I never asked!). I don't know if Jews are similarly prohibited - it certainly didnt worry our Jewish members who were very active in the lodge.

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 10:15
In my own case the Roman Catholic church has always taken a dim view of Freemasonry, and I believe membership at one time would lead to excommunication (possibly not now, I never asked!).

Interesting point...

From Wiki...

"In 1736, the Inquisition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) investigated a Masonic Lodge in Florence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), which it condemned in June 1737. The Lodge had originally been founded in 1733 by the English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_people) Freemason Charles Sackville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Sackville,_2nd_Duke_of_Dorset),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#cite_note-1) but accepted Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) members, such as the lodge's secretary Tommaso Crudeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommaso_Crudeli).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#cite_note-crudelibcy1-3) This investigation led,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#cite_note-4) in 1738, to Pope Clement XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_XII), himself Florentine, issuing In Eminenti Apostolatus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Eminenti_Apostolatus), the first papal prohibition on Freemasonry. The reasons for the prohibition were stated as:
Now it has come to Our ears, and common gossip has made clear, that certain Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles called in the popular tongue Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons or by other names according to the various languages, are spreading far and wide and daily growing in strength; and men of any Religion or sect, satisfied with the appearance of natural probity, are joined together, according to their laws and the statutes laid down for them, by a strict and unbreakable bond which obliges them, both by an oath upon the Holy Bible and by a host of grievous punishment, to an inviolable silence about all that they do in secret together. But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated."

It seems the Catholic Church will only tolerate Catholic secret societies such as Opus Dei...

Caco

BOAC
13th Mar 2014, 10:18
Don't know about FMs, but 'tis often said you cannot be circumcised and be a politician as you need to be a complete dick.

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 10:22
Don't know about FMs, but 'tis often said you cannot be circumcised and be a politician as you need to be a complete dick.

:D

And one might add to BOAC's pithy aphorism by noting that another prerequisite of the politician's sacral centre is "not to have any balls"...

Caco

Rossian
13th Mar 2014, 10:22
...in one's mind. I'd have taken a small bet that RCs could not be masons, with the prohibition coming from both sides.

In 1983 there was a huge scandal in Italy about the existence of a Masonic lodge called P2 with a lot of very senior military officers and one or two members of the Curia in the membership rolls. In fact my arrival interview with an Italian admiral was cancelled because he was "indisposed"; he, and several other senior Italians at CINCSOUTH vanished without trace, and were replaced a few weeks later.

Italian politics at that time were "veerrry eenteresting" (and murky!).

Ther Ancient Mariner

tony draper
13th Mar 2014, 10:27
I believe there were a few in the Vatican Bank as well,they dont just throw you out of that one,they hang you under under a bridge.
:uhoh:

Dee747
13th Mar 2014, 10:50
I have personally been present at Masonic meetings where not only the Christian Bible, but also the Koran and I believe, the Talmud were all open so that those of each religion could observe their individual holy reverence to God, however He may be referred to.

As tankertrashnav has stated, all religions are welcomed in Freemasonry, but atheists who declare no belief in a supreme being, are excluded. Whether individual religions wish their followers to be Freemasons however is another matter. Some see Freemasonry as a competing religion, which it most definitely is not. It supports each member in their personal engagement with their God through their particular creed or beliefs and doesn't challenge those in any way.

Dee747

Blacksheep
13th Mar 2014, 10:54
Prominent Jewish community leader, Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was a fellow lodge member of Arthur James Balfour.

You don't get much more prominent than that.

Dan_Brown
13th Mar 2014, 11:13
A Jew will consider anything for material gain. Look at Kissinger, bilderberg and all the rest of it.

Getting out? Bit like Islam, you're in it for life.

Maybe some knowledgeable "brothers" on the forum could explain the need for the secrecy.

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 11:31
A Jew will consider anything for material gain.

A bit of a sweeping statement Dan. Although I would accept that success in business is often a key Jewish ethic I can also say I have know many Jews who not in the least bit materialistic. I have even know some Jewish hippies.... and have encountered a great deal of generosity of spirit and material amongst the Jewish community.

I would be interested on you take on Opus Dei given your moniker... ;)

Caco

Dee747
13th Mar 2014, 12:09
Maybe some knowledgeable "brothers" on the forum could explain the need for the secrecy.

Dan
The Freemasons are not secret. You can very easily look up on the internet all sorts of information, including meeting places and contact details. You can even look up rituals if you really want.

The only "secrecy" I can perceive you're referring to are things like handshakes, which are purely ritualistic and historic and are shown to members as a means of demonstrating how ancient operative masons, employed in the building of most of Europe's grand cathedrals and fine palaces, could prove to their employers as they moved from job to job what grade of skill they possessed. Each tier of skill (tradesmen through to craftsmen) merited a different pay structure and privileges, and each was fiercely protected so that you earned progression up the skills properly. As each new grade was achieved, a means of proving you were of that grade was developed using particular handshakes. Freemasons use this analogy to prove one to another that they are what they say they are. Nothing more. Nothing secret beyond the unknown.

And you're certainly not in it for life!!! Not if you don't want to be. In fact that's one of the issues facing Masonry these days - an aging membership and falling numbers in many instances.

pigboat
13th Mar 2014, 12:17
I have personally been present at Masonic meetings where not only the Christian Bible, but also the Koran and I believe, the Talmud were all open so that those of each religion could observe their individual holy reverence to God, however He may be referred to.
What the man said.

acbus1
13th Mar 2014, 12:33
http://www.wnd.com/images2/mason.jpg

QED

Capetonian
13th Mar 2014, 12:50
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7593647/freemason.JPG

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 13:21
Ok so some Jews use their hands to demonstrate an intelligent point or a good price! What's wrong with that already...? ;)

Jackie Mason is one hell of a funny guy as well...

Jackie Mason - Jew at the Restorant.mp4 - YouTube

Caco

Rossian
13th Mar 2014, 14:16
....I'm slightly baffled by acbus' picture + QED. Who is the guy? and what does he mean by QED??

I'm slightly wary of the turn my original thread has taken, and I can't say that I like it. Keep to the original thread guys.

The Ancient Mariner

Octopussy2
13th Mar 2014, 14:26
I'd never heard that handshake explanation before, Dee747 - very interesting, thank you. I've learned something today!

Tankertrashnav
13th Mar 2014, 14:34
A Jew will consider anything for material gain. Look at Kissinger, bilderberg and all the rest of it.


Dan Brown - your views on Jews are about as valid as that pile of poo you wrote about the Holy Grail in that book of yours! Certainly one of the Jews in our lodge was a very successful businessman with all the trappings of wealth (Rolls Royce, yacht , big house in leafy Bucks etc) but he was also one of the most generous when it came to putting his hand in his pocket when the (frequent) requests for donations to charity came around.

Certain amount of gratuitous insults on here from people who are speaking from a depth of ignorance on the subject, an ignorance which is inexcusable as Dee747 has pointed out, since apart from a few trivial things like handshakes etc, everything else is open for inspection.

That said, wild horses wouldn't drag from me the details of the "riding the goat" ritual ;)

MagnusP
13th Mar 2014, 14:35
Rossian, Jewish guy called Mason. Quod Erat Demonstrandum "what was to be demonstrated", i.e. proof of Jewish Masons.

Rossian
13th Mar 2014, 14:41
...I knew what QED was. But without recognising the chap in the photo the "joke" rather missed its mark.

The Ancient Mariner

Oh and wot TTN said, that post triggered my post #21

MagnusP
13th Mar 2014, 14:46
Rossian, hie thee hence to yootoob and watch some of Jackie Mason's routines. Very funny, although I must admit his accent is sometimes a bit impenetrable to an auld Scots bugga like me. :ok:

Dan_Brown
13th Mar 2014, 15:04
Thanks for the input guys. All good stuff of course and nothing new to me.

Let me try another way. Why the lack of transparency in Freemasonry membership? By lack of transparency I mean secrecy.

I used to support the conservatives all my adult life. Since the last Bilderberg (a highly secret odious society) meet in the UK, when the PM and his purse decided to attend this highly secretive meeting, that changed abruptly.. Where is the transparency in that? I will never vote for them again. At least UKIP had the testicles to point this out. Haven't we learnt our lesson regarding secrecy from the horrors of last century?

Until membership details are published, there will be non transparency/secrecy. While this remains the case, there will always be corruption. They go hand in hand.

MagnusP
13th Mar 2014, 15:13
:confused:

While you're at it, do you want the membership lists for all political parties, the National Trust and Summerside Bowling Club in Edinburgh?

Capetonian
13th Mar 2014, 15:15
A Jew will consider anything for material gain.As will most other members of the human species.

racedo
13th Mar 2014, 15:31
Anybody can be a Freemason including Atheists, Agnostics etc by just not telling the truth......................kind of like most humans.

Late cousin was married to a Mason and he went from just surviving in business to very wealthy in 5 years. He was a bit of a :mad: but don't think that had anything to do with him being a mason.

Catholics are banned from joining Freemasons and that has not changed but like everything in life there is free will. So if someone wishes to join knowing this then that is a decision that they must make themselves.

I am Catholic and would never dream of joining neither would my friends but that is just us.

I have met and worked with scumbags who were masons, worked with scumbags who weren't so being a scumbag doesn't imply one is a mason.

I have also met and worked with people who were masons who were honest, upright citizens who were pleasure to be with and met same who were non masons.

I think for many people being a Mason is something social with lots of rituals where they can meet up with like minded people with no ulterior motive.

Sadly like many organisations there will be a minority whose sole purpose of joining the masons is to get something out of it and to use and abuse the trust of others. These will do whatever is required to personally benefit.

I think Masons like Rotary and many social organisations has lost influence as many people no longer wish to be involved in anything.

Capot
13th Mar 2014, 15:33
On a point of pedantry from a long way back...

I dont know whether a Jew can be a Freemason, but a Freemason can certainly be a Jew If a Freemason can be a Jew, then it seems to me to follow that a Jew can be a Freemason. What doesn't work is putting 'is' instead of 'can be'.

I know, too much time,

Yarmulke, spectacles, testicles, wallet & watch......I'm off

Dan_Brown
13th Mar 2014, 16:14
Like getting blood out of a stone.

Anyone care to ATFQ? Why the non transparency?

Pasted membership is always revealed in obituary, why not when they are alive?

tony draper
13th Mar 2014, 16:19
What's the point of being a member of a secret society and blabbing about it to all and sundry.
:rolleyes:

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 16:30
What's the point of being a member of a secret society and blabbing about it to all and sundry.:rolleyes:

I thought half the fun was letting it slip (as some of my comprades have) in an un-blabberly way...!

Caco

racedo
13th Mar 2014, 16:35
I thought half the fun was letting it slip (as some of my comprades have) in an un-blabberly way...!


Mate had the handsake off to a tee and used it if he figured other person was on the square.
Worked one time when with him in London in accessing a club and he was really trying it on and we had drinks paid for us because they assummed he was somebody :E

Tankertrashnav
13th Mar 2014, 16:54
Like getting blood out of a stone.

Dan Brown - when you withdraw your offensive anti Semitic remarks I'll ATFQ as you so delicately put it - and in full.

Racedo - your earlier post :ok:

Capot - Oi! I'm the PPRuNe grammar pedant. You trying to nick my job?

;)

Rossian
13th Mar 2014, 17:01
.....don't get riled TTN, he isn't worth it.

Dan Brown - if you want to start an anti Jewish thread go ahead, do your own, don't hijack mine.

The Ancient Mariner

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 17:13
On the subject of secret societies and the Priory of Sion (as written about by the other Dan Brown), I thoroughly enjoyed the pseudo-historical work that started the whole ball rolling....

"The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail..."

The book is of course an enjoyable load of piffle.

The Priory Of Sion - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-priory-of-sion/)

Pierre Plantard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Plantard)

Plantard was an anti-Semite and an anti-mason!

Caco

Keef
13th Mar 2014, 17:24
I know quite a few Anglican clergy who are freemasons, although I understand it's officially frowned on. I know several lay Catholics who are masons. I know at least one Jew who is. They are all thoroughly delightful people, but I wouldn't join (I was invited).

tony draper
13th Mar 2014, 17:28
That was the book Dan Brown stole all his daft ideas from,as we seem to be covering spookiness on JB today,when I went to the library I would carefully select five books then pluck one at random,one of my random plucks was the afore mentioned Holy Blood and the Holy Grail,prior to this I knew nothing whatsoever on the subject,read some of it with interest as a kind of medieval detective story,then buggah me! the same night a documentary appeared on telly covering the book,.:uhoh:
Shortly thereafter got a letter from the library asking me to return the book if I had finished reading it as it was the only copy and about five thousand people were on the waiting list to borrow it,not reading anything supernatural into this,just a strange coincidence,
:rolleyes:

Keef
13th Mar 2014, 17:31
Comes of it being on the TV, Tony. The "been there, read that" brigade need to get their eyes round it tootsweet.

OFSO
13th Mar 2014, 17:36
The book is of course an enjoyable load of piffle.

Ahem.

Try reading "City of Secrets" by Patrice Chaplin, regarding the identical building the priest of Rennes le Chateau, Abbé Saunier, built in Girona, Catalunia, in the early 1900's.

Then, if you (or anyone else who is interested*) cares to visit the site of the building - which I have explored several times - I will show you something which may change your mind about the hidden treasure discovered up in France.

* An open invitation to any PPRuNers who come to Girona.

tony draper
13th Mar 2014, 17:42
Oh I knew that, the demand was because of the documentary,incidentally I was probably the first person in my town to read of the adventures of a bloke called James Bond,a newish book plucked from the shelves looking sadly unborrowed called Casino Royal, the reason for the plucking? it had a spiffing picture of a Smith and Wesson snub nosed 357 magnum on the dust cover,those books became quite popular afterwards,
Wish I'd hung on to the bugger probably a first edition,worth a hundred grand now.
:rolleyes:
PS Re Rennes le Chateau, Abbé Saunier, ect something always struck me when I watched the endless documenraries on the mystery.
Why dont they follow the money? it was not that long ago historically,ie they used cheque books invoices recipts for monies paid and transfered in those days,
The builder was not paid in gold and jewels he would have wanted cash in his pocket to spend in the pub,money leaves a trail,follow that.

Cacophonix
13th Mar 2014, 18:19
OFSO

Your rejoinder intrigues me mightily...!

Caco

cattletruck
14th Mar 2014, 10:54
Can you be a compulsive liar and also be a member of the Freemasons?

I am not a Freemason but have been asked to join a few times by people whom I've had the utmost respect, but what really irked me about their society is that they seem to have let in some plonkers who think that being a part of it makes everyone else a piece of sh!t, even up to the point of spreading false rumours about individuals, obviously motivated by jealousy.

I find Freemasons are like the Mormons in that the good ones are a real pleasure to work with. Which raises another question of which I don't really care to have answered.

Dee747
14th Mar 2014, 14:10
Some truths about Freemasons and Freemasonry -

PRO - There are many very good, honest, diligent members who seek nothing more than companionship of others like themselves.
ANTI - There are some who try to use it for the wrong reasons, most especially the myth that it furthers their careers or can be used to get favours or allow them to do illegal or unsavoury acts without recrimination.

PRO - It is an open society whose places of meeting, activities, rules and regulations and in some cases its members, are in the public domain. It sits within the community, not apart from it.
ANTI - The old fashioned methodology "You have to be invited to be a member" has been the society's downfall - it self perpetuated the "secrecy" image without due cause or reason. It was the worst decision ever taken and should never have been made.

PRO - It is statistically the second highest charitable contributor in the UK after the National Lottery. A very large proportion of this is to "outside", i.e. public or non-Masonic charities, many local to each Lodge, many the big national charities.
ANTI - Public perception is that it "looks after its own" and nothing else. Certainly looking after fellow Masons and their dependents is an integral part of the charitable aspect of the Order, but most definitely not exclusively. Tens of thousands of UK and Ireland citizens have been educated by Masonic schools or education based Masonic charities, or have been nursed and cared for at Masonic funded hospitals or by staff who trained and qualified within those hospitals; or as widows and dependents, have been cared for by varying levels of financial assistance from the Order in addition to their state entitlements in order to make life a little easier.

PRO - It encourages members of different religions to sit equally together without those different religious beliefs causing any barrier between them. A man's beliefs in his God are his to hold and no-one else's to question.
ANTI - The public perception that it is a white Protestant organisation which excludes Catholics (or indeed our OP's hypothetical Jewish friend). Do a Google search for "Prince Hall Lodge" and see if the results are different to what you expected.

Freemasonry's purpose can easily be summed up in just five words - "To make good men better". It builds on a man's good character and encourages him to play a fuller, more enriching role in his society, and in his relationships with his family and beyond. Ethics and morals are enriched, but not in any esoteric or mystical fashion. Some rise to the challenge and do indeed play a more meaningful part in their society and feel all the richer for it. But like in every environment or grouping in life, there are occasional bad apples who taint the general perception of the Order. They are to be scorned for that, and bring no merit to it. They would be better off elsewhere.

I state all of the above as a member of 31 years, who throughout my extremely enjoyable membership has not gained either financially or in my employment status. I have never had legal favours from any fellow member who happens to be in the police or legal profession. I've not had any member do me cut price work on my home, nor have I short cut anything in my life thanks to the behind-the-scenes activities of another member. If any of these situations ever arose I'd tell them in words of one syllable exactly what I thought of them and their activities, and that they should consider their continued membership of the Order if that was how they behaved.

I hope some of the above may have helped some of you to become a little more knowledgeable about the truths and myths frequently pinned on Freemasonry.

Dee747

Exascot
14th Mar 2014, 15:02
Just seen this thread and sorry I have not read it all but my father has been a member of what he claims to be Jewish lodge for 60 years. Is this possible? He has been Grand Master twice. We are not Jewish. I can't ask him any detailed questions about it unfortunately as he has difficulty communicating.

pigboat
14th Mar 2014, 15:56
I don't know if any are located in Europe, but in North America there are 22 pediatric hospitals that are funded entirely by the Shrine. Each unit specializes in a branch of pediatric trauma - burns, spinal cord injury etc. At the door they don't question if your father is a Mason or if he is Jewish, Catholic or Arab.

AtomKraft
14th Mar 2014, 16:00
What a stupid question.

racedo
14th Mar 2014, 16:16
What a stupid question.

Nope a reasonable question that provided opportunities for people to expess themselves and the perceptions.

Private jet
14th Mar 2014, 16:21
A good friend of mine was (i say was because he is now deceased) in the brotherhood. He was quite open and honest to me that his primary interest in joining it was networking and connections for business purposes. Many members were the same, but it must be stressed that many others were not, and to them it was purely a social thing and a framework for doing good works for worthy causes which they certainly do, regardless of any alterior motive.

cockney steve
14th Mar 2014, 16:31
For those who don't know, Manchester's "jewish quarter"runs up Cheetham Hill Road, to Prestwich.
A friend had a tobacconist there, He was invited to, and eventually joined the local Masonic Lodge...He claimed to be the only Gentile there.
That was in the later 1970's.

piesupper
14th Mar 2014, 16:46
Lodge Montefiore on the south side of Glasgow has a very high proportion of Jewish members.
Some of the nicest folk you could ever hope to meet are members of that lodge. They do have their fair share of those who you wouldn't cross the road to piss on if they were on fire as well unfortunately..

But the good guys outnumber the tossers :-)

pineridge
14th Mar 2014, 17:51
Piesupper said------------


But the good guys outnumber the tossers




it is a pity that the same relationship between good guys and tossers does not exist in the World at large.
.

Tankertrashnav
14th Mar 2014, 18:25
Dee 747 - brilliant post, but I fear you won't convince those who just don't want to know and prefer to keep their old prejudices and misconceptions.

B Fraser
14th Mar 2014, 20:32
If one is a Red Sea pedestrian, rolling up your trouser leg must come in handy if the tide comes back in.

pr00ne
14th Mar 2014, 23:33
Why can't women join?

axefurabz
14th Mar 2014, 23:37
Why can't women join?

Because they're women? And have the Eastern Star?

racedo
14th Mar 2014, 23:48
Why can't women join?

Not enough kitchens to chain them to in the Temple

(yeah I know will cop it from Worrals)

racedo
14th Mar 2014, 23:51
But the good guys outnumber the tossers :-)

Doubt it...

Reckon they are evenly matched between those who wish to do good and the ones who wish to network and get something from it.

Some Lodges will be good and others will be cesspits............just law of averages.

Tankertrashnav
15th Mar 2014, 00:00
Dunno why women cant join - historical thing I suppose, dating back to the times when women had no rights to speak of and occupied a subordinate position in society.

I'm guessing that like in many other areas such as women priests in the C of E, equal rights in employment, female military pilots and loads more examples, this will change in the near future and Freemasonry will be opened up to women.

Mind you how many of them will want to be blindfolded and bare their breast to have a sword pointed at it is another matter ;)

Dan_Brown
15th Mar 2014, 13:25
I do apologize to the thread starter for the thread high jack. Guilty.

As for anti antisemitism? I wrote and I quote " A Jew will consider anything for material gain....." Well so will i and so will anyone on this damned forum, so where is the anti antisemitism in that? Full marks to the mods on this forum as my remark could have been taken out of context. The moderation has improved no end on JB in recent times. Good for the mods and keep it up. A victory for "free speech".

To be fair no one has "screamed" for the mods either which is encouraging.

Tanker, I have explained where I come from. Maybe you can explain to me this. Would you buy a house without looking into every aspect of the history etc., etc., of the said property? No of course you wouldn't. Then why, pray tell me would you want to join a society with life long implications, without knowing everything about it? You cannot source the required information as it is secret. So you signed and oathed up on something you know nothing about on the say so of "mates". I fail to get my head around this. God give me strength.

Why aren't women allowed? I know lots of masonic widows and sympathizers, so why not let them in? Are you FM's all queer for each other or what?

Out of respect to the thread starter I will re frame from further posts on this thread, unless he has a question for me.

PS, nowhere have I stated Freemasons are bad people. Misguided? I think so.

pigboat
15th Mar 2014, 14:35
Are you FM's all queer for each other or what?

You ask a smart ass question yet expect a rational answer? As you stated, "God give me strength."

racedo
15th Mar 2014, 14:55
You ask a smart ass question yet expect a rational answer? As you stated, "God give me strength."

Why not Yahweh give me strength ?

BenThere
15th Mar 2014, 15:35
And really, in a free society shouldn't people be able to choose their own associations, including or excluding those they see fit?

I'm a Republican and don't want any Democrats in my community betterment club. They would just gum up the works. And I don't want to join any Democrat clubs either.

Further, I can see the utility of having an association that excludes women, as I can see a utility of a womens' association that excludes men.

Freedom of association is a fundamental right. Busybody malcontents constantly try to undermine it but they will only succeed in driving the urge further underground.

To the point of the thread, any organization that prohibits Jews from joining is one I will have nothing to do with. Jews are the most civilized demographic on earth; they have done more to better mankind's condition than any other group; and they have suffered devastating prejudice for their excellence to a sickening degree.

Though I am not Jewish, I am wholeheartedly pro-Israel and pro-Jew, as I see Jews as partners in the highest aspirations of man and civilization.

The divestment and disengagement movements against Israel abounding in the liberal left universe utterly disgust me.

wings folded
15th Mar 2014, 16:23
The divestment and disengagement movements against Israel abounding in the liberal left universe utterly disgust me.
Any thoughts on the illeberal right universe?

BenThere
15th Mar 2014, 16:27
Correction, it's the liberal right universe. There the obvious humanistic, advanced, moral character of Israel is recognized rather than vilified.

wings folded
15th Mar 2014, 16:35
Correction, it's the liberal right universe.
That may or may not exist. But I am just curious why you mention the left as being anti Jewish. I thought the most extreme anti Jewish actions came from a pretty right wing outfit.

BenThere
15th Mar 2014, 16:43
Quite the contrary. The impetus to disinvest and sanction Israel today is entirely from the left.

Go to any venue where Israeli speakers, athletic teams, or other representatives are shouted down, or attempts made to cancel their appearances and you'll quickly see leftist groups, aligned with Islamic cohorts, are doing the pushing.

Conservative groups are overwhelmingly pro-Israel.

wings folded
15th Mar 2014, 16:51
Ah, I see. At least I think so. You are speaking from a USA perspective.

It's different elsewhere.

bnt
15th Mar 2014, 16:56
As I understood it. the historic Catholic objections to Freemasonry weren't strictly religious in nature, but had more to do with the secrecy as perceived threat to the Church's secular power in Catholic countries. You were expected to have absolute loyalty to the Church, not divide your loyalties with any other cause.

(I've been approached about joining a Lodge here in Ireland, but since I don't meet their first requirement (as listed on this page (http://www.irish-freemasons.org/Pages_GL/GL_introduction.html) , which "is essential and admits of no compromise", that's all she wrote.)

Tankertrashnav
15th Mar 2014, 17:30
want to join a society with life long implications


That is another of the misapprehensions you are under. I was a member of a London lodge for a few years, when I was working in an area which made travel to London convenient. When that situation finished, I ceased my membership of that lodge, and chose not to join one down here in the SW. I am in effect an ex-Freemason (in the same way that I am a lapsed Catholic).

No-one has pursued me to continue my membership, I have to all intents dropped off the Masonic radar, if indeed such a thing exists. Once you stop paying the subs, you can do what you like - there are NO life-long implications, whatever you may have been led to believe.


A Jew will consider anything for material gain....." Well so will i and so will anyone on this damned forum, so where is the anti antisemitism in that?


Well if that is the way you choose to live your life, I cant stop you, but dont include me in your generalisation, or indeed the vast numbers of people of all religions or none who choose to live their lives with very different priorities than the pursuit of material gain.

Rossian
15th Mar 2014, 19:18
.....I was just going to let this thread die on its feet (which I thought it had at one point).

However comma I accept the apology offered, in the spirit in which I think it was offered. But DB then spoiled the effect by going for the ad hominem remarks pointed at TTN.

I was strongly tempted at one point to pull the thread, but then I read some of the remarks in another thread about disappearing threads/posts and felt that I ought to leave it.

The answer to my original question is very clearly "Yes!". However I would NOT be accepted being a lapsed wee free presbyterian atheist. C'est la vie!

Continue to stay cool guys .... or?

The Ancient Mariner

racedo
15th Mar 2014, 19:53
As I understood it. the historic Catholic objections to Freemasonry weren't strictly religious in nature,

What does the Church say about Freemasonry? | Catholic Answers (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-church-say-about-freemasonry)

Seem pretty clear to me.

tony draper
15th Mar 2014, 20:04
They weren't very fond of us Cathars either,:uhoh:

bnt
15th Mar 2014, 22:37
What does the Church say about Freemasonry? | Catholic Answers (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-church-say-about-freemasonry)

Seem pretty clear to me.
Sure, if you're a Catholic, and you trust a Catholic website to tell the truth about non-Catholics. That bit about "indifferentism" was particularly amusing.

Compare that with the link I used earlier, for an example of how Freemasonry has been getting along just fine in a historically Catholic country. I was at University College Dublin a few years ago, where the Architecture department is housed in a former Masonic school, with the insignia still in clear view today. Not that I'm particularly bothered either way.

http://www.ucd.ie/universityrelations/events-and-protocol/ucd-staff-open-house/richview.jpg