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maliyahsdad2
11th Mar 2014, 10:33
Bob Crow has died suddenly this morning.
Didn't much like the man but he did great work for his union members (even if the travelling public think drivers etc are overpaid) , 52 is no age to die. stressful job and unhealthy lifestyle do not mix.


BBC News - RMT union general secretary Bob Crow dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325)

awblain
11th Mar 2014, 10:44
Pie futures are way down.

Tankertrashnav
11th Mar 2014, 10:52
Blimey, only yesterday I was listening to an interview some woman from Radio 4 did with him in the restaurant in St James Park, over lunch.

After years of being dead against him I was just starting to see a few of his virtues - courage of his convictions, however misguided, loyalty to his members, etc. Looks like I left it a bit late!

For anyone who remembers the 70s, when union leaders were household names (Vic Feather, Mick McGahey, Scargill etc), Bob Crowe appeared to be the last of a dying breed. Can anyone from outside the unions now name even one union leader?

fireflybob
11th Mar 2014, 10:52
I don't subscribe to his politics but admire the way he fought for his members.

He also wanted out of EU which is good for me!

Condolences to family, friends and colleagues.

racedo
11th Mar 2014, 11:12
Mate works in National Rail and has had many meetings with Bob, refused to say a bad word about him as found he was always polite, knowledgeable and always willing to sit down.
He said Bob wasn't the dinosaur people made him out to be but always said, if you sell it openly to me and tell me what the upside and downside is then I can put to my members but if I can't see it sitting with you I know I can never sell it. He said he never made it personal and time and again would come and question some of what they were doing including suggestion of stuff which had not been considered. Given he had done the work he got listened to.
May not have liked him but he did what he was paid to do in representing the people who put him there.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2014, 11:20
I never met him but I didn't like what I saw and heard of him on TV and radio. But it's sad that he died so relatively young.

SARF
11th Mar 2014, 11:25
Cue the not the nine o'clock news sketch. When one of the arguing politicians dies

Effluent Man
11th Mar 2014, 11:48
Latest news: He got spiked in the leg by a fat blonde guy with a brolly on his way to work.I smell a rat.

handsfree
11th Mar 2014, 12:05
Saw him once in Derby addressing a Bombardier Rally just after the Crossrail (?) contract was lost.
Impressive speaker even if you didn't agree with him.
Love him or loathe him, 52 is far too young to be shunted into the siding.

SpringHeeledJack
11th Mar 2014, 12:06
I collided with him along The Strand a few years ago, an accident that was due to neither of us properly looking where we were going. He was as polite as I was and we did the typical "sorry mate, are you ok etc etc dance". He was belligerent on behalf of his members and justified the wage they paid him and he did the best by them, rather than just himself as do many union high-ups. The effects of strikes would of course make the hard pressed commuters mad, but that unfortunately is the way the game is played.

52 is way too young to die, or be diminished for anyone. A shame all in all…



SHJ

skua
11th Mar 2014, 13:28
But further evidence that the Beeb has lost the plot, or rather lost the feel of where the middle of British values lie. The lunchtime news just now led with the story of his death, and carried on for a full 6 and a half minutes (in a half hour programme). Who will they lionise next?

747 jock
11th Mar 2014, 13:33
He would have had a lot more respect from many people if he didn't keep refusing to move out of his council house, there by allowing a family or person earning far less than he was to benefit from subsidised accomodation.

racedo
11th Mar 2014, 14:55
He would have had a lot more respect from many people if he didn't keep refusing to move out of his council house, there by allowing a family or person earning far less than he was to benefit from subsidised accomodation.

He broke no laws in doing so and he could have bought it with a substantial discount because he had lived there so long.........he didn't try and profit from that.

Tabloids complaining he didn't do X because they wanted him to do it shows that media were never interested in a story but seeking to make headlines.
He wasn't hypocritical as he had obtained the right to live in LA housing

Notice how NO govt has actually tackled the issue where people living in LA housing when their circumstances have changed so much.

747 jock
11th Mar 2014, 15:42
He broke no laws in doing so

So he was legally right but was he morally right?

He was one of the initial signatories to the "People's assembly against austerity", and in a letter to the government, they stated:
This is a call to all those millions of people in Britain who face an impoverished and uncertain year as their wages, jobs, conditions and welfare provision come under renewed attack by the government.

He was so worried about other people being impoverished that despite earning an extremely good wage, he wouldn't give up his well subsidised accomodation so enabling someone less fortunate to have a decent house.

Hypocrite is the word that I would use.

dazdaz1
11th Mar 2014, 16:06
747 How true....
"He was so worried about other people being impoverished that despite earning an extremely good wage, he wouldn't give up his well subsidised accomodation so enabling someone less fortunate to have a decent house" .........

How true, people who can't speak English, people claiming political asylum with ten children being cosseted by fluffy councillors and screwing our NHS.

RIP Bob

Mr Chips
11th Mar 2014, 17:08
I won't shed one single tear over his death...and as far as I am concerned he can rot in hell

IB4138
11th Mar 2014, 17:11
Respect to Bob.

I may not liked what he stood for, but he fought strongly for his members and came up the hard way.

A straight speaking English principled union leader....one of a few

I hope he isn't replaced by one of the Scottish contingent, who have made being an obnoctious, carp talking, pilloch union official into a life career from the outset.

I will miss his outbursts.

RIP Bob.

Cyber Bob
11th Mar 2014, 17:30
I wholeheartedly agree Mr Chips. Union fat cat's help themselves first, before the people they serve. His stance on his council house highlights my point.

No tears shed here

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2014, 17:49
I didn't know he lived in a council house. Surely the hypocritical thing for him to have done would have been to buy it at a discount, trouser the cash, go and but a mansion on his considerable salary, and live in luxury.

That he didn't says to me that though I think he was a misguided dinosaur, he at least lived to the misguided principles he spouted on the media.

Capetonian
11th Mar 2014, 17:57
A nasty piece of work, a rabblerouser who pretended to have the interests of his union members at heart at the expense of the economy and millions of people. In short, typical socialist scum.

cavortingcheetah
11th Mar 2014, 18:02
It's not nice to crow about it though.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2014, 18:08
When I first saw this thread, I thought it was about Bob Crowe, the chap who sells (or used to) Cessnas in UK.

Cacophonix
11th Mar 2014, 18:35
He sure stuck by his principles and you can't say fairer than that.

Somewhere a wife and children are grieving for a dad who died far too early...

Bob Crow dies: London Mayor Boris Johnson reacts to death of RMT union leader - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bob-crow-death-london-mayor-boris-johnson-reacts-to-death-of-rmt-union-leader-9183792.html)

Caco

Krystal n chips
11th Mar 2014, 18:37
"
A nasty piece of work, a rabblerouser who pretended to have the interests of his union members at heart at the expense of the economy and millions of people. In short, typical socialist scum.

You will be delivering the eulogy I take it ?

You have to admire him for his principles and his stances. The "dinosaur" tag was a compliment to his tenacity therefore given that he practiced what he preached and many benefitted as a result.

He will be remembered as one of the outstanding T.U leaders of our time and his premature death is a loss to the UK as a whole, not simply the Trade Unions and the R.M.T.

cuefaye
11th Mar 2014, 18:40
You have to admire him for his principles and his stances

Why?

And clearly the BBC liked him.

Cyber Bob
11th Mar 2014, 20:06
All the 'Luvvies' will coo about how much he changed this, how he bettered that. Lets make one thing clear, he was in it for himself first, as all trade union rep's are.

"We're all equal Brothers'" - Sure Bob, Sure

cavortingcheetah
11th Mar 2014, 20:08
So he'll be in Balthasar's left as she sits on his right at tonight's heavenly welcoming debutant ball?

Mr Optimistic
11th Mar 2014, 20:33
No loss. Don't care.

angels
11th Mar 2014, 20:36
he was in it for himself first, as all trade union rep's are.


CyberBob - I was trade union rep once for the staff at a small branch (22 was small in those days!) of the National Westminster Bank. I had just left school and turned 18.

I wasn't paid for it, but the largely female staff were being terrorised by a bullying, sexist, lecherous, nasty old man. By acting together, we put a stop to his antics. I was privileged to play a role in it.

WTF do you know about unions??

vulcanised
11th Mar 2014, 20:40
I wouldn't want my epitaph to be

He prevented thousands from working on many occasions

Cyber Bob
11th Mar 2014, 21:09
Angels wrote: "I wasn't paid for it, but the largely female staff were being terrorised by a bullying, sexist, lecherous, nasty old man. By acting together, we put a stop to his antics. I was privileged to play a role in it.

WTF do you know about unions?? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've just proved my point. Spouting of how you bettered things for mankind when in fact "We" did this not "I". You don't need to be a union rep to stand up to someone, just takes moral fibre. And what part exactly did you play? - second thoughts, please don't tell, just add it to your CV and send it into the RMT, you just never know

What do I know about Unions?, well without getting into a pi$$ing contest, a damn sight more than you it seems.
I stand by my earlier comments
All the best
CB

Georgeablelovehowindia
11th Mar 2014, 21:22
In 1968, I was on the wrong side of some industrial action taken by BOAC's pilots, in support of their claim for bidline rostering (I think). The management had taken one look at what was involved and said NO. BALPA then directed the pilots to work to rule. Part of this was not to answer their telephones at home, to acknowledge crew plot changes, an amazing oversight which had not been written into their contracts. You can imagine the unfolding chaos that rapidly ensued!

It was almost a relief to all of us in the smoke-filled rooms of crew rostering and flights ops control centre, where I worked, when matters escalated further, and BALPA called a strike. I forget how long it lasted, long enough to have the parked 707s and VC10s towed around in rotation, to prevent their tyres developing flat spots, but eventually the pilots won. They got their bidline rostering.

Some time later, a 707 was going base training, direct from the maintenance area, and one of the first officers called past control centre to pick up the nav bag. There was some muttering from my duty officer along the lines of "There's that so-and-so BALPA rep who led the industrial action. I swear the man's a bloody communist!"

The 'so-and-so' was none other than Senior First Officer Norman Tebbitt.

You could've knocked us down with the proverbial feather when, a year or so later, we opened our copies of BOAC News (aka The Friday Firelighter) to read that Norman Tebbitt had been adopted as the Conservative Party candidate for Chingford.

It's a funny old world, isn't it?

SARF
11th Mar 2014, 21:41
It's all about the balance of power. Where is it now? Characters can pile in and use it.. Look at boris the buffoon in London. knock em, moan, whine.. Or do it yourself...

arem
11th Mar 2014, 21:45
Nice to have a bit of good news today.

SARF
11th Mar 2014, 21:49
I'm lost more sleep when Scotland left the union ..
Oh bollocks I hate when wish list gets out of sync

TomJoad
11th Mar 2014, 22:14
So he was legally right but was he morally right?



By whose measure? As has been said he broke no law he was simply exercising his right like many others are entitled to do.

I was not particularly keen on his style but I admired his conviction to his fundamental beliefs. Many of our "by focus group" politicians could well take a lesson from him.

Hangarshuffle
11th Mar 2014, 22:18
I thought I'd put a tribute in tonight, from one working man to another. I wish this man had fought my corner, and my friends corner. RIP Bob Crow.


Bob Crow, RMT leader, dies of suspected heart attack at 52 | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/11/bob-crow-dies-52-rmt-union-leader)


Brought a dying union to its feet. Train drivers jobs were once deemed ...now attract graduates thanks to their status and salaries.
God, I wish we had had such a man, instead we had.....

sitigeltfel
11th Mar 2014, 22:26
It was disruption to his tubes that did for him.

Oh, the irony!

kintyred
11th Mar 2014, 22:37
MacDonald's attracts quite a few graduates too.

racedo
11th Mar 2014, 22:37
He prevented thousands from working on many occasions



And many will raise a glass and say thanks Bob for the day off and the chance of working from home.

Hangarshuffle
11th Mar 2014, 22:38
But haven't got the status. Why is that?

Melchett01
11th Mar 2014, 23:13
I can't say that I agreed with any of his politics and I thought the way he held the capital to ransom repeatedly was pretty poor, but I have to respect what he was trying to do. And by all accounts, behind the bluster and swagger, a fairly intelligent and shrewd operator around the negotiating table.

Amongst the ranks of anodyne and egregious politicians, along with Boris, definitely one of the characters of the political scene and for that reason alone, regardless of political leanings, I think he will be missed.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
11th Mar 2014, 23:29
One or two RFA ratings will be crying in their beers tonight.

Alber Ratman
11th Mar 2014, 23:30
A leader who stood up for his beliefs. You may revile those beliefs, but leaders like him are few in this world.

747 jock
12th Mar 2014, 00:41
By whose measure? As has been said he broke no law he was simply exercising his right like many others are entitled to do.

Which is why I phrased my comment as a question and didn't make a clear cut statement that what he did was morally wrong.
I think that he was a total hypocrite who was only in it for himself, but that's only my opinion.

As to the "he broke no law".
Amazon.co.uk were not breaking any law when they only paid about £2.5 million in corporation tax on £4 billion in sales, and there were dozens of MP's who claimed expenses that a large percentage of the UK population thought were excessive or downright taking the pi55, but an awful lot of these claims were totally legal.

Just because something isn't breaking the law doesn't mean that everyone has to agree that it is acceptable.,

reynoldsno1
12th Mar 2014, 01:00
as all trade union rep's are
That tells us more about you than trades union reps . I am a member of a union - an amalgamated engineers' association. Our reps are/have been engineers as well. They most definitely are NOT 'in it for themselves' ...

ex_matelot
12th Mar 2014, 01:17
This really warrants another thread. All Unions state they seek to help out the workers.
My wife is heavily invlved / or was at her work.
Unions ulitimately are a political concept and the workers bit is just a front.
Lots of people at the front fighting and gobbing off..demanding this and protesting that and...it makes no bloody difference, the rear-guard are the ones protesting about the front...

We dont need unions in the UK.

We need another world war.
That will concentrate thoughts and banish all thoughts of channel 4.

kintyred
12th Mar 2014, 01:42
Hangarshuffle,

The point I'm making is that the term graduate doesn't have the cache that it once did. With the percentage of the population with a degree increasing 6 fold over the last 30 odd years, it's not the mark of quality that it once was.
I would not speak ill of the dead but I have lived under a communist regime and anyone who is happy to admit to following that ideology earns only my contempt for I have seen the effects of its pernicious dogma on its poor subjects at first hand.
Our own democracy may not be perfect but it does at least tolerate men like Bob Crow and gave him the freedom to express his views without fear of persecution.

jwcook
12th Mar 2014, 05:11
A good man... RIP.

Krystal n chips
12th Mar 2014, 05:53
For those who may wish to read, and understand, more about the person he was overall.

Bob Crow obituary | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/11/bob-crow)


For those who have been offered the opportunity for a spot of "lets bash the lefty unions "as a result of his death, you may wish to think about the fact, that, over the years, many of the terms and conditions, safety legislation and the general working environment you now take for-granted came about as a result of many people being prepared to stand up to those for whom the quality of human life was merely an inconvenience when their sole objective was personal and corporate wealth.

Interesting as well as to how many on here constantly refer to the inconvenience of the Tube strikes.....blissfully oblivious to the fact there is life outside London.

Wander00
12th Mar 2014, 07:21
Didn't agree with his line but a respected man who will be much missed. Thought Boris gave a fine tribute.

Effluent Man
12th Mar 2014, 08:29
I don't really see Bob Crow as being any different from the CEO of any major company.He was engaged by the RMT membership to do the job of pushing the interests of the members in exactly the same way as a bank CEO might.

The main difference is that Crow did the job very well for a few tens of thousands whereas a lot of bank CEO's appear to have done the job very badly for a few million.Maybe a bank should have headhunted Crow.

Sop_Monkey
12th Mar 2014, 08:52
If some of the pilot unions had the likes of Bob at the helm we wouldn't be working for the pittances we are now. There would certainly be none of this P2F c**p!

Instead we get these ex public school w*****s and not a sign of a testicle, anywhere.

ORAC
12th Mar 2014, 08:56
Oh the irony of it.......

Krystal n chips.............or those who have been offered the opportunity for a spot of "lets bash the lefty unions "as a result of his death

Krystal n chips (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/512060-margaret-thatcher-dead-5.html#post7783057)......Well, what would you like me to say ?.

Lets put it this way. Social convention demands that we pay our respects to the deceased. Social convention however, makes no mention of the hypocrisy of paying said respects in public, yet happily saying the reverse in private......Explain to me therefore, why I should mourn and embrace hypocrisy merely to placate those on the right who feel they are entitled to expresss their opinions, but condemn those who disagree, vehemently and with vitriol at times, with them.

ORAC
12th Mar 2014, 08:57
Oh the irony of it.......

Krystal n chips.............For those who have been offered the opportunity for a spot of "lets bash the lefty unions "as a result of his death......

Krystal n chips (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/512060-margaret-thatcher-dead-5.html#post7783057)......Well, what would you like me to say ?.

Lets put it this way. Social convention demands that we pay our respects to the deceased. Social convention however, makes no mention of the hypocrisy of paying said respects in public, yet happily saying the reverse in private......Explain to me therefore, why I should mourn and embrace hypocrisy merely to placate those on the right who feel they are entitled to expresss their opinions, but condemn those who disagree, vehemently and with vitriol at times, with them.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2014, 10:22
If some of the pilot unions had the likes of Bob at the helm we wouldn't be working for the pittances we are now. There would certainly be none of this P2F c**p!

Instead we get these ex public school w*****s and not a sign of a testicle, anywhere.

That neatly demonstrates why what Crow did was immoral. If an airline's pilots go on strike, the public can use another airline and only the airline employing the strikers suffers. If Tube drivers go on strike, the pax have no alternative they can use. So Tube customers are captive and can be squeezed by the likes of Crow.

Back in 1955 train drivers thought they'd hold the country to ransom and went on strike. Many businesses transferred their goods to road transport - and never went back to rail. The train drivers learned a hard lesson that if you pi55 folk about, and they have an alternative to you, you will suffer the consequences.

Crow knew he could call a Tube strike with no immediate consequences and get more money for his members. Of course, this only made Boris look more seriously at driverless trains as many 'Tubes' abroad use.

MCDU2
12th Mar 2014, 11:17
So no unions=lower pay for workers, poorer T&Cs and with the savings the consumer will benefit because Mr CEO will pass them all on. Yeah right, your all delusional. As just one example how come the wholesale price of gas or oil can drop but we don't see it at the pumps. But even threaten a war or an embargo and prices increase overnight even though the stock you are buying was brought at a lower price? Its called corporate greed folks and unfortunately neither governments nor regulators give a toss so you need someone to stand up to them even if we may disagree with their politics.

racedo
12th Mar 2014, 11:59
Imagine a man like Bob standing up for those serving in the military and military families.

Sop_Monkey
12th Mar 2014, 12:04
'ere, 'ere, 'ere. Well put.

Wyler
12th Mar 2014, 12:38
Why is this in Mil Aircrew?

Stick it in Jet Blast - out of the way.

NutLoose
12th Mar 2014, 12:59
£145,000! a year plus expenses, yet refused to move out of his council house, thus depriving someone more deserving.
My, that was magnanimous of him.

camelspyyder
12th Mar 2014, 13:10
"Council House" conjures images of a crappy quarter run into the ground by DIO.

Bob Crow lived in a deluxe modern semi in the South East in a select street of only 9 properties. That doesn't sound like council properties I remember living in.

althenick
12th Mar 2014, 13:18
just seen the write-up on him. He did a good job for his members.

Wish it had been Scargill...

OFSO
12th Mar 2014, 13:35
As a member of the public who oft travelled in London, I detested Mr Crow and all he stood for. He was a menace to all who use public transport.

However, as Chairman of the Staff Association in former years and a Governing Member of the Pensioners Association today, I wish we had him as our leader.

Bill4a
12th Mar 2014, 13:47
Be honest, a degree hasn't had any cachet since the Polys became universities!
:}

angels
12th Mar 2014, 14:34
CyberBob

Spouting of how you bettered things for mankind when in fact "We" did this not "I". You don't need to be a union rep to stand up to someone, just takes moral fibre.

Not 'mankind' but a few of us (as I said) at a small branch of the Nat West.
And I used the word 'we' you cretin.

Moral fibre got you sacked in those days -- and still does to this day.

PS - Where are you from? Russia?

racedo
12th Mar 2014, 14:49
Bob Crow lived in a deluxe modern semi in the South East in a select street of only 9 properties. That doesn't sound like council properties I remember living in.

Its a Housing Association property.

2 sheds
12th Mar 2014, 15:57
He will be remembered as one of the outstanding T.U leaders of our time and his premature death is a loss to the UK as a whole, not simply the Trade Unions and the R.M.T.
What absolute tosh; there seems to be a grave danger of him being revered as another Diana. Explain this assertion; I thought that outstanding TU leader (in the implied sense of outstanding) was an oxymoron.

2 s

gr4techie
12th Mar 2014, 16:00
How valuable are degrees

I like to add it depends what degree you are doing. From what I've seen, a skilled technical degree is worth it to get your foot in the door of that profession. For example, a civil engineering degree is worth more than a history of art degree.

Cyber Bob
12th Mar 2014, 16:12
Angel wrote

"Not 'mankind' but a few of us (as I said) at a small branch of the Nat West.
And I used the word 'we' you cretin.

Moral fibre got you sacked in those days -- and still does to this day.

PS - Where are you from? Russia? "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So eloquent, I dare say you didn't use this approach when rounding up your posse to tackle the big nasty man.

May I suggest that you place the bucket back on your head and keep spouting - that way you may actually 'Listen' to what rubbish you're talking.

Dear me, can't believe there are people like this out in the public domain unsupervised :ugh:

CB

PS. No not from Russia - have another guess?

Laarbruch72
12th Mar 2014, 16:42
Was dear Comrade Bob in the forces then?

1.3VStall
12th Mar 2014, 16:55
Mods,

Could we please move this thread about a dead dinosaur? It has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to military aviation!

Shack37
12th Mar 2014, 17:17
PS. No not from Russia - have another guess?


To judge by the venom in your two replies to Angels possibly North Korea. A man has died at 52 leaving friends and family. Not really a cause for public celebration.

Try not to take it all personally CB, we're all entitled to post our opinions or do you disagree with that too?

angels
12th Mar 2014, 17:19
Mate, you don't need to be eloquent to take on a dirty old man who (amongst other things) physically and mentally abused people, especially women, desperate to keep their jobs.

But it helped. :}

Cyber Bob
12th Mar 2014, 17:50
Angels and Shack

No venom within my posts, just banter. (Venom kept under lock and key ). The only thing I will conceed is that Crow died young. As a person I despise what he was and stood for.

Example. During the tube strike where 'Our Bob' was stood side by side with his 'Brothers' and sisters' did Bob take a hit on wages like his bretheren?. No chance, despite using his muscle and influence to effect a strike, our Bob still continued to receive his £150k + salary. It galls me that someone who described himself as a communist/socialist is actually an opportunist who milked the system (Council house ring any bells).

More galling than that, his salary, bonuses, pension, junkets and holidays are all funded by those willing to stick their necks out and strike.

My resentment goes further. My father was in the automotive trade (Main UK manufacturer) and one year spent 50 out of 52 weeks on strike. Bullied into that action by the militant reps and shop stewards. Yes, they received a pay rise (Something which Bob would openly crow about - pun intended) however at what cost? - did they ever recoup the 50 weeks lost wages - possibly over a very long period of time - worth it, probably not. Shop stewards and reps at a disadvantage - not bl**dy likely - looked after by their own

Modern day reps. Some in it for the money and side benefits others' in it for posturing purposes, ego tripping and oneupmanship. I've never ever come across a 'Righteous' rep

So excuse me if I express a distrust and disregard for union reps and if you can see through the smoke and mirrors, you'll find that they're in it for themselves (for whatever motive) first, before their flock

Someone asked if Bob Crow's family will be looked after now - absolutely they will and to a degree, rightly so for them.

Finally, I'm not celebrating his death - just expressing a view that I despised what he stood for in life. Not taking things personally and as mentioned in my previous posts, this is my view and I'll stand by it. In terms of opinions, polar opposites sit fine with me, honestly they do

CB
PS. To make the guessing game easier - I'm currently in Nirvana!

angels
12th Mar 2014, 17:56
Funnily enough, although I largely disagree with you, you are talking sensibly now!

I'm not going to argue since we will never agree! :p

Cyber Bob
12th Mar 2014, 18:01
Angels - from that I take it that you no longer need to consider the bucket and I'm no longer a Cretin!

Polar opposite's fella - nothing wrong in that

Sundowner time!
All the best
CB

Lima Juliet
12th Mar 2014, 19:02
Couldn't stand the man. Sorry...