VFW614 - overwing mounting

[piesupper]

The VFW 614 was an unfortunate commercial failure, being unlucky with initial engine choice. Yet another in the long long line of DC-3 "replacements", it's most notable feature was the over wing mounting of the engines.
The only other example of overwing mounting of anything I can recall was the fuel tanks on some Lightnings.
Can any of our esteemed readership give me any other exampes of overwing mounting?
I can see the obvious disadvantages of putting missiles there, a misfire or jettison is going to put the flaps and tailplane at risk, but other than possibly cabin noise, I'm intrigued as to why other designers have not opted for a low-wing and mounting the engines on top.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The Antonov AN-74 has engines mounted above the wings but not on pylons.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

The new HondaJet has OTW engines.

[Herod]

One reason for the mounting could be that it keeps the engines away from debris. Very useful if you're planning on operations from secondary/rough strips.

[ZeBedie]

Lower noise footprint on the ground, shorter, lighter landing gear required, less FOD.

But how do you get at them for maintenance? Can't gravity-feed fuel.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Mr Honda seems to think it's "Way to go" see hondajet.honda.com/OTWEM
-no acknowledgement of the VFW614 'tho, you would think it was purely a Honda breakthrough.

[piesupper]

Heathrow Director - Aye you are correct there, how did I forget the Antonov? :O


IBB
Hadn't paid too much attention to the HondaJet either. Unlikely to be able to afford one this month so it slipped my mind. I have a lottery win scheduled for April though so we'll see about it in mid May once I have the mansions sorted out. ;)

[Bob Viking]

How is it possible that no one has mentioned the Jaguar yet? Missiles on top of the wings. Great idea. I can vouch for the fact that it is quite noisy when you fire one though.
BV

[Haraka]

Do-X ? ( Amongst many other flying boats around the world.)

[piesupper]

Bob Viking - unaware of that one too - can you link me to any photos?
In view of the performance characteristics of the Jaguar, can you tell me if there was any truth in the rumour that wire-guided missiles were considered with main use of the wire being for towing said Jaguar?

[Good Vibs]

Regarding speed....Did not the USAF A-10 have "bird strikes" from the rear?

[evansb]

Yes, indeed, the English Electric (BAC) Lightning had over-the-wing ferry tanks and rocket pods, (rocket pods shown below):

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640027/G-AXEE_zps715e547c.jpg




A few more over-the-wing designs:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640014/AirmasterAvalonTwinStar_zpsf70fd88c.jpg

NASA's proposed AMELIA design, (below), has engine pods similar to the VFW 614:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640023/Amazing-NASA-Advanced-Model-Extreme-Lift-Improved-Aeroacoustics_zpsadfb1fba.jpg





The Rutan Triumph (below)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640022/n143sc_zpsbd1cb9f8.jpg

[evansb]

While this may not qualify as an over-the-wing design, the D-21 Mach 3+ drone mounted on the Lockheed M-21 was tres avant-garde !

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640024/M21Ship2-cropped_zpsab6d9058.jpg


The AVTEKAIR 9000T certainly qualifies as an over the wing design:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640025/POC_in_flight_zpsd9a35d82.jpg

[evansb]

Goodyear's proposed G.A. 39 fighter had high mounted over wing engines:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640026/GA39LARA_zps8af32d09.jpg

[Wander00]

What was the GA 39 going to fight? When was that?

[Kitbag]

As BV said, the Jaguar had overwing pylons:

http://www.jetdiscovery.com/wiki/sites/default/files/imagecache/page_full/image/page_image/jaguar.jpg

[D120A]

From a design standpoint, wouldn't over-the-wing mounted engines at high power (e.g. take-off) cause a nose-down pitching moment that would necessitate an even larger than usual downforce required from the tail? Hence beefier tail, beefier rear fuselage, hence higher structural weight and reduced payload?

ISTR the VFW614 had aeroelasticity problems too, but I cannot remember the details.

Any designers care to comment?

[ian16th]

VFW614

I flew in one as a pax.

From Copenhagen (Kastup) to Sonderburg (SP). Circa 1974-5.

I'd never heard of the a/c and when I saw it, my 1st reaction was 'WTF?'

But it seemed to work :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Here's another...

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a610/brendan_mccartney/Aircraft/EIANR_zpsf701d0c2.jpg

[joy ride]

There is also the Custer Channelwing, although it is more like Wing Under Engine than Engine Over Wing:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Custer+aeroplane&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=CsKoW0DO1lg1DM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcT_T1flzr UUE99CcXin2pAH1k12vzLwWFlngqGu6DbLAfmyNLc5%253B400%253B261%2 53B4ePff5MT3fFxfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.custercha nnelwing.com%25252F&source=iu&usg=__b6Pd00khCq5ObAHwvnKyxtvbAbY%3D&sa=X&ei=hkQTU6DQMpCThgfJm4CIAw&ved=0CEIQ9QEwAg&biw=1024&bih=475#facrc=_&imgrc=CsKoW0DO1lg1DM%253A%3B4ePff5MT3fFxfM%3Bhttp%253A%252F% 252Fwww.custerchannelwing.com%252Fplane5b.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%25 2F%252Fwww.custerchannelwing.com%252F%3B400%3B261

[evansb]

In late 1963, with the Vietnam War escalating, a tri-service requirement for a Light Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft (LARA) was formulated and let out for contract. The LARA specification later morphed into the LAAR (Light Armed Attack and Reconnaissance Aircraft). Similar to the COIN specification.

The Goodyear GA 39 was the only amphib-type design submitted:

Here are the other (not accepted) candidates:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640028/otherLARAcandidates_zps735c2df4.jpg

Yes, the NA-300 (OV-10 Bronco) was the winner. The Convair Charger, (shown as the General Dynamics Model 48), was a better performer, but crashed during testing. Preceding them all was the venerable Grumman OV-1 Mohawk (not shown).

[Wander00]

Evansb - many thanks

[Kitbag]

Point of order guv'nor:

Surely the NA-300 was the Bronco that was accepted?

[DaveReidUK]

Surely the NA-300 was the Bronco that was accepted?

Yes, it was.

[Capot]

I'm sure I've seen pictures of a British post-war transport aircraft, perhaps a prototype only, that had 2 jet engines on each wing, one above the other, with one over the wing and the other under it. My vague recollection is a double air intake with a horizontal divider.

I'm trawled everywhere for a picture, but it is as though it never existed and I'm beginning to doubt my sanity. Does anyone recall such a thing? Would it qualify if it did exist?

[ATSA1]

Shorts Sperrin?

[dixi188]

Does that big Russian Ekronoplan count as an aeroplane?

[Allan Lupton]

I think ATSA1 is right and Capot in thinking of the Short Sperrin Bomber which looked like this:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk126/generalmelchett/ShortSperrinMedium.jpg

They had four R-R Avon engines normally, but DHE had one as a FTB for the Gyron, one of which was fitted in the port lower position.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Short_Sperrin_Gyron_engine.jpg/300px-Short_Sperrin_Gyron_engine.jpg

[Groundloop]

HD mentioned the Antonov AN-74. Looked like a Soviet rip-off of the Boeing YC-14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YC-14

[joy ride]

Short Sperrin! I knew the plane but not its name, cheers! I presume the engine placement was to minimise asymetric thrust with engine failure, perhaps to keep the weight in closer too?

[Capot]

ATSA1 and Allan Lupton

Thank you very much! That's the one. It did indeed exist, and now I can unbook my place in the doolally clinic.

[joy ride]

I think I saw a Sperrin in a newsreel, perhaps taken at Farborough.

[A30yoyo]

I always assumed the Sperrin bombers engines were like that to permit a nice continuous spar section eliminating the wrap-around structure needed for centrally mounted engines (Meteor, Canberra?)

[A30yoyo]

I'm amazed that no-one's mentioned the Boeing YC-14
https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6145/5981995785_96d30ea59b_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27862259@N02/5981995785/)
Boeing YC-14 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27862259@N02/5981995785/) by kitchener.lord (http://www.flickr.com/people/27862259@N02/), on Flickr

and a here's couple of the VFW-614
at Farnborough
http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/I-ATIC900VFW614.jpg (http://s809.photobucket.com/user/A30yoyo/media/I-ATIC900VFW614.jpg.html)

at Le Bourget75
http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/VFW-614.jpg (http://s809.photobucket.com/user/A30yoyo/media/VFW-614.jpg.html)

Can't imagine how much money VFW-Fokker and Rolls lost on that [the second post-war German jetliner :-)]...lovely looking little aircraft and went into service with Cimber Air in Denmark

[FlightlessParrot]

You'd think flying boats would be a good source of over-wing engines. Martin SeaMaster for one. But pylon-mounted overwing engines, I'm not sure. Dorniers would count, I guess.

[PAXboy]

With the Custer (fascinating!) he appears to have identified the advantage of the 'Bypass Fan'. First with props and then a pure jet, he uses the wing as the part outer circle of the modern configuration.

I sit to be corrected.

[joy ride]

PAXboy, I think you are right, but having realised the advantage of ducting it seems odd to me to go only half-way! I remember seeing photos of planes with the engine inside a cylindrical fuselage for the same purpose, but that's for a different thread!

[Noyade]

Those big Russian Beriev flying-boats, although not directly positioned above the wing, do have a pylon mounted jet engine. I understand the "golden eye" below the main engine is a directional jet when on the water?

http://imgbin.me/image/JQPEJSZT.jpg

[Hussar 54]

The 614....

I left TAT just as they were arriving in the late 70's, so never had the pleasure....

But my friends who stayed on there and had a couple years on them said that they were almost, but obviously not completely, unstable, the final 200 ft to touchdown....Most of them put this down to the overwing mounting causing poor / unusual aerodynamics, with ' a fairly unique AoA ' as one of them used to say although whether that was nose high, nose down or pancake flat I've no idea....

Given their short service life, I suppose there must have been something wrong somewhere in addition to the fairly questionable economics and need of a Regional Jet almost 35 years ago....

[John Farley]

D120A

I suspect the tail down loads required to pull max g at max speed and with the CG at its forward limit would be the design case (for any aircraft)

[Fareastdriver]

The Sperrin had a crew of five with only one ejector seat; for the captain.

Bit of a problem chaps. Bail out,. Follow me.

[Rosevidney1]

According to the VF 614 handling notes the minimum air maneuvering speed was a very low 88 kts but curiously no mention is made of landing difficulties.

[evansb]

As mentioned on page 1 of this thred, the Dornier DO-X:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/convair640036/p018prl3_zps58cd6b6f.jpg