Qantas Sick Leave

[CamelSquadron]

Saw a report today that said that sick leave in Qantas is averaging 10 days per employee.

In contrast Jetstar is averaging 4.5 days per employee. Another example of how Jestar staff are more productive than Qantas staff on average.

Qantas staff sick leave costs $125m per year in itself.

Little surprise that more functions are outsourced and off-shored.

[VH-UFO]

3....2.....1....and

[Angle of Attack]

And also a potential indicator of staff too scared to call sick, you can read stats multiple ways......

[clark y]

Wonder if "contractor" stats are included.

[doug606]

As a worker I'd rather my work mates be at home sick then next to me infecting the whole crew. Last year I was on shift when some left early on the first day feeling sick the next day it was 3, by the last night shift 16 people were off sick with the same symptoms so sometimes you and the company are better off not being tough and coming in

[12-47]

You would hope people are conversant with these laws;

CIVIL AVIATION SAFETY REGULATIONS 1998 - REG 67.270 Offence--doing act while efficiency impaired
(1) This regulation applies in relation to a licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence) of any of the following kinds:
(a) flight crew licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence);
(b) special pilot licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence);
(c) flight radiotelephone licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence);
(d) air traffic controller licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence).
(2) The holder of the licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence) must not do an act authorised by the licence (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s65.175.html#licence) if at the time:
(a) he or she knows that he or she has a medically significant condition (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s67.010.html#medically_significant_condition); and
(b) the condition has the result that his or her ability to do the act is impaired.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.

In other words you can technically be convicted and fined if in breach. Try maintaining your ASIC with a conviction against your name. If you are not fit for duty you shouldn't be crewing an aircraft and based on recent occurrences the CASA definition of medically significant condition is very much 'no matter how minor'.

[Livs Hairdresser]

In contrast Jetstar is averaging 4.5 days per employee. Another example of how Jestar staff are more productive than Qantas staff on average.

So does that include the rort where you let your mate know you're going to call in sick, your mate then comes in and does the trip and gets additional pay for working on a day off?

Then your mate does the same favour for you next week ....

[maggot]

does your mate owe you a case of beer for a successful go at that?

[1A_Please]

Another example of how Jestar staff are more productive than Qantas staff on average.
...or that Jetstar are so terrified by the tenuous nature of their work contract, they are too frightened to take sick leave.

Sick leave can be abused and there are probably heaps of abuse throughout Qantas (partly due to over-generous SL provisions in EBAs etc) but I have always found that if you have an engaged happy workforce, people self-regulate and restrict their sick leave to when they are actually sick and that is the time, as an employer, I don't want them in anyway.

Qantas has developed such a poisonous culture that employees are taking extra sick leave because they feel under-valued whilst management treat all sick leave (except their own) as a rort. This is a race to the bottom.

[neville_nobody]

This is a non starter for pilots as in certain instances pilots would actually be taking a pay reduction by going sick, given the structure of the QF pay system.

Until you get pilot data this is a pointless argument if you are throwing in cabin crew, office workers, ground staff etc etc.

[Australopithecus]

Qantas' workforce include many older workers, past the age of rude good health. Bad **** sometimes happens as you get older, start shaving, have kids etc, CamelSquadron.

QF core staff also toil under an executive team that keeps stress levels high with constant leaking of impending doom, endless strategic reviews and publicly rewarded malfeasance.

Just wait until JQ is no longer the fair-haired boy in the group.

[CamelSquadron]

If you benchmark sick leave against other companies - 10 is an extremely high number and it reflects very poorly on the mindset and productivity of the Qantas staff.

For it to average 10, there must be many taking more than 10 because in any business you will have a fair proportion of responsible people who will only take sick leave when they are really sick.

[neville_nobody]

If you benchmark sick leave against other companies - 10 is an extremely high number and it reflects very poorly on the mindset and productivity of the Qantas staff.

And you're going to benchmark that against a bank or insurance company where office workers can go to work with a light cold, whereas in aviation that could end in permanent injury.:ugh: Likewise a busted finger or wrist would rule out a flight attendant or pilot but your bank worker can carry on.

I suggest you get real data against a real comparison.

[bloated goat]

3 votes to that.

[*Lancer*]

Australian average is 9.4. Public sector in the teens. Qantas seems pretty normal.

[BNEA320]

u get sick, you leave

[Icarus2001]

If you benchmark sick leave against other companies - 10 is an extremely high numbeWell you obviously feel that you have done the comparison.

Perhaps you could share both the data and the source of the data otherwise it is just another opinion dressed up as a fact.

[12-47]

Australian average is 9.4. Public sector in the teens. Qantas seems pretty normal.

Around 14 if I remember correctly for the public sector and that includes your desk bound public servants. To think you've got an ageing workforce, many of who work across timezones, back of the clock and in an environment where URTIs are commonplace, 10 is impressive.

[Icarus2001]

This...

Absenteeism reflects sick organisation (http://www.afr.com/p/national/work_space/absenteeism_reflects_sick_organisation_QvCKWp1Cz5dtUNGF1rdha N)

Or this...

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/bureaucrats-take-it-easy/story-e6frg6z6-1226717184043)

Where did you get the figure of ten from CamelSquadron? Did the media department just give you that figure to spread this week before Thursday?

[Trent 972]

If you want to have a little giggle, click on CamelSquadron in a post heading and then, "Find More Posts by CamelSquadron".
Every post has the same theme.
Total TROLL.
Hahahahaha

[Aisle Dweller]

10 days average seem to be a lot. I belong to the older work force and in all my working life I had never 10 days sick leave in a year and I never worked in an organisation where one could accumulate sick leave.

[noip]

Trent972

+1

[CamelSquadron]

"Total TROLL."

Thats the best you can come up with when faced with facts?

This really is a 1970's primary school yard type response. Very immature.

[bazza stub]

Is not :-)

[FYSTI]

Facts? You've posted none, just some cited some anonymous report. Document your source.

[CamelSquadron]

Qantas plan echoes BA?s brutal restructure (http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/qantas_plan_echoes_ba_brutal_restructure_aZWVJ0YOUC3c7ZnYc7k P4O)

Unfortunately for you, its not written with crayons.

[Trent 972]

Camel, your link is hidden behind a pay wall.
Can you please use your crayons to put it up here, because all us kiddies can't afford a Fin Review subscription. (Like it will be around is 12 months time, anyway). :p

[noip]

CS,

Instead of being a Troll, how about you try and contribute .. Yes I acknowledge you are not the only idiot that posts here but I'd really like intelligent discussion instead of what you offer.

At the moment, all I can discern from your posts, from my half century of Aviation experience is that you are an idiot that is not worthy of anything other than being strapped to a pallet for a laps extraction.

Please be intelligent.

N

[CamelSquadron]

Ok, here is the original article:

Qantas Airways faces challenges with “strong parallels” to those that led to a brutal restructure of British Airways more than a decade ago, says former BA chief executive Rod Eddington.
Sir Eddington, who took the helm of BA in 2000, launched the transform*ational “Future Size and Shape” program. It resulted in the loss of nearly one-quarter of the airline’s 65,000-strong workforce over three years but helped return the carrier to profitability by focusing on its strengths as a full-service airline amid competition from budget rivals.
Qantas has already announced plans to cut 1000 jobs from its workforce of 33,000 this year. But it is expected to raise that number alongside the release of its half-year results on Thursday as part of a plan to cut costs by $2 billion over three years to better compete against Virgin Australia Holdings.
Scott Gustetter, a former Qantas network and strategy executive who heads aviation consultancy Aspirion, said the job cuts at the airline could approach 6000. “From a labour point of view you are going to see massive changes,” he said.
Sir Eddington said there were “some strong parallels between the challenges British Airways faced in 2000 and the challenges Qantas faces today”.
“The people of British Airways were able to confront those challenges, think through what needed to be done and actually implement the changes,” he told The Australian Financial Review on Monday. “That was the workforce as a whole.”
Many of the jobs were lost through natural attrition and the sale of non-core businesses, but there were also major cuts to the call centres and check-in staff through better use of technology. In addition, some employees such as flight attendants switched from full-time work to part-time in a move that helped avoid costly *redundancy payments. There were few strikes during that period.
By the time Mr Eddington exited BA in late 2005, annual earnings had grown to £450 million, up from a £62 million loss when he had arrived. “You can do it but it is difficult and you need to bring your people with you,” he said of the restructuring effort.
A bigger turnaround than American Airlines

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has said that cutting $2 billion of costs from the business over three years will represent proportionately greater cuts than those made by American Airlines during its recent Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
American Airlines cut 11 per cent of its 66,000-strong workforce over an *18-month period before it emerged from bankruptcy in December. The heaviest job losses were in engineering and *baggage handling.
Qantas, like other legacy carriers, is a complex business. The airline has 49 enterprise bargaining agreements with 16 different unions, which includes newer agreements that offer less generous terms than older ones.
Qantas has already been reducing staff at its mainline operations while growing its low-cost subsidiary Jetstar Airways. Employee numbers at its mainline business fell by nearly 1300 between June 2012 and June 2013 but remain above 25,000. Qantas’s mainline staff on average took 10 sick days last financial year compared with 4.7 for Jetstar staff. The total annual attrition rate is just 4.5 per cent.
Mr Gustetter said he expected cuts in call centre staff, engineering and the head office, with some positions lost altogether and others outsourced. Most call centre workers at Qantas are located onshore and some in New Zealand, whereas BA outsources to India.
In engineering, Qantas does the bulk of its heavy maintenance for its dom*estic fleet onshore even though the Qantas Sale Act only requires that for its international fleet. In contrast, Virgin does most of its heavy maintenance in overseas locations such as New Zealand and Portugal and has a far smaller *engineering staff. “I think that is *certainly an area susceptible to cuts,” Mr Gustetter said. “It is an unfortunate consequence of the competitiveness of the Australian labour force.”
He said cuts to the workforce *performing more routine line main*tenance at Qantas might also be made because for every three engineers checking a Virgin aircraft, there were typically six at Qantas. “That has to change,” he said.
Mr Gustetter said he also expected Qantas would retire ageing 767s and 747s more quickly than previously flagged in a move that could help lower fuel costs and the additional pilot and maintenance requirements of having a more mixed fleet.

[CamelSquadron]

Thank you noip for another personal attack. Can I suggest you stick to the thread topic?

[FYSTI]

Saw a newspaper report today that said that sick leave in Qantas is averaging 10 days per employee


Oh, I get it now! An unattributed newspaper report. For a moment there it was some sort of rigorous research report. Once again another piece of data that cannot be tested - its unverifiable, and therefore has little to no validity.

Does Qantas / Jetstar advertise or have a commercial relationship with Fairfax media group? You are right your honour, withdrawn.

[Captain Dart]

'Sir Eddington'???

BTW I worked for that individual and found him fairly uninspiring, and IMO his tenure was the start of the downhill run for my current airline.

And a previous airline he ran no longer exists.

[haggis007]

You are clearly not a professional pilot , but complete idiot C.S

[Mstr Caution]

CS.

As you know JQ fly the A320 with containerised baggage.

QF fly the 737 with hold stowed baggage loaded by conveyer belt.

As you know the 737 conducts close to 400 sectors a day.

To load and unload an A320 the individual item of baggage is handled only twice by JQ staff. Once placing it in the can and a second time removing it.

Compare that to the handling of the 737. The item is handled 6 times by a baggage handler. Once from the belt to the trolley, a second time from trolley to the inclined conveyer belt and a third time from the belt to the aircraft hold. The process repeated again from aircraft hold to the belt. Again from belt to the trolley and one more time trolley to baggage belt.

When you obtain some lost time due injuries data, say for example Baggage Handlers. Which in affect, your calling Qantas Mainline "Sickies". We can then discuss the work practices which exposes mainline employees to injuries at a rate 3 times higher than JQ.

MC

[noip]

CS,

Fine ... confirmed idiot with nothing to contribute ..

I was expecting more.


Goodbye ..

N

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

more BS to soften up the public for the inevitable movement of more flying to Jetstar.

[Trent 972]

Article is largely -
From the words of Scott Gustetter (http://www.aspirion.aero/our-team/scott-gustetter) CEO of ASPIRION (http://www.aspirion.aero/clients/airlines) ...has also been involved in the start-up of 7 successful airlines, including: Jetstar Airways, Jetstar Asia Airways…. Aspirion is a specialised aviation consultancy and software company headquartered in Sydney, with additional offices in Brisbane and Singapore.
Well there you have it then, he would know wouldn't he.
CamelSquadron, I've got a bridge in Sydney Harbour for sale, are you interested?
edit.
TROLL

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Sir Eddington, who took the helm of BA in 2000, launched the transform*ational “Future Size and Shape” program. It resulted in the loss of nearly one-quarter of the airline’s 65,000-strong workforce over three years but helped return the carrier to profitability by focusing on its strengths as a full-service airline amid competition from budget rivals.

And there end the 'strong parallels' with Qantas...

[Mstr Caution]

Fatguyinalittlecoat

Much like the false company claim pilots wanted facials & massages preflight as part of an EBA claim.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://m.theaustralian.com.au/travel/news/qantas-pilots-fight-for-first-class-luxuries/story-e6frg8ro-1226110557215)

The lengths some companies will go to in order to smear the public image of their own employees.

MC.

[CamelSquadron]

Thanks for the personal abuse, It tells you more about the character of the person doing the abusing. If your this thuggish in a forum then what are you like when it comes to something important like an industrial relations dispute?

Is it true that Qantas long haul pilots get up to 25 days sick leave per year? Surely not? That would mean they get more sick leave than the rest of the population get in holidays every year.

[CamelSquadron]

Mstr Caution (http://www.pprune.org/members/148107-mstr-caution) ,time off for sickies is recorded separately from time off for work injuries.

You could be right though, the comparison between Jetstar and Qantas would look even worse if you included time off for workplace injuries.

[What The]

Is it true that Qantas long haul pilots get up to 25 days sick leave per year? Surely not? That would mean they get more sick leave than the rest of the population get in holidays every year.

No. Your attempts to smear Qantas pilots are becoming desperate. Loser.

[SOPS]

I don't know who Camel is, but he seems to be in the same ilk, that during that year, had one of our American "freinds" in a magazine getting a haircut in flight, to display how easy the job was. I could start, but I will be banned.

[neville_nobody]

Is it true that Qantas long haul pilots get up to 25 days sick leave per year? Surely not? That would mean they get more sick leave than the rest of the population get in holidays every year.

Understand that you are talking about a operational job not a office job. You cannot apply your 9-5 air conditioned, ergonomic chair, toilet breaks whenever, food and water on tap to a operational job.

The QF pay structure and the way sick leave works is nothing like you are suggesting.

As I said before going sick can result in a lower pay at the end of the year.

You are obviously yet another desk jockey with NFI about aviation operations.

[DirectAnywhere]

Sick leave is a bit of a furphy for pilots anyway.

Pilots are legally obliged to determine that they are fit to fly prior to commencing a duty. If they are not fit to fly they are subsequently required to withhold themselves from duty. If a pilot were to use more than 25 days sick leave to ensure their compliance with the CARs, and had appropriate documentary evidence, it would be an interesting exercise to see whether the requirements of the determination or the CARs took precedence.

[Trent 972]

CamelSquadron said
time off for sickies is recorded separately from time off for work injuries
After all the years I've been here, I'd have to ring my Fleet Manager to find that out, and even then I doubt if he'd know, without contacting HR.
CamelSquadron = TROLL

Though he is still giving me a little girlie giggle to see how desperate these trolls are to portray LH pilots badly.
G. Thomas just gives me the sh!ts. BullSh!tting arsewipe of a 'self proclaimed expert'.

[Mstr Caution]

I'll have to ask my manager how many days per year off I'm entitled to for work related lost time injuries.

I can't find it in my FWD or Admin manual.

Until such time I'll have to refer to my Sick Leave entitlements.

[TIMA9X]

CamelSquadron = TROLL

Yep:ok: a great diversion thread, less said the better... other stuff going on, Joyce would be grateful for anyone who wants to play alone with the management anti staff theme song.. just a thought..:)

.

[CamelSquadron]

Well good luck for tomorrow. At an individual level these are sad circumstances.

[Angle of Attack]

Thanks Camel,
I just called in sick for tomorrow and am having a BBQ and a piss up, so wont need any luck, I'll be smashed by 12pm! :ok:

[frangatang]

If you want sickies try the ferking fire services in australia, unbelievable...britain in the seventies!

[Sqwark2000]

Could it possibly have something to do with how many sick days are allowed for in the different CEA's?

I'm guessing QF might have 10 and def J* would only have 5, so it's people using their entitlements as provided....

My company allows 90days continuous, resettable to 0 when you return to work. No one takes advantage of it, we still need to provide medical certificates for 3 days or more, but it's helped a few guys who've had medical issues that have taken a few months to resolve. If it takes more than 3mths to sort out, an admin day is rostered to reset the 90day clock....

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Sick leave isn't perhaps the corrrect wording - its absent from work due to sickness, nothing to do with leave!
Presume most were off sick when you were whooping the Brits at Cricket - Barstewards :D

[Sunfish]

Camel Squadron may be safely ignored, he is not a pilot and knows nothing about the aviation industry.

[GoDirect]

Summed up perfectly by Direct Anywhere's Post #46. What people outside of aviation do not understand is that you cannot fly if you have a cold/URTI due to ears blocking/possible damage to eardrums etc. At your office desk, no problem, and most people will push on through. Go flying and possibly perforate an eardrum or two, and the person will be off for a very long time compared to the time required to come right. There is also the lesser known possibility of causing brain damage from flying with a cold and ending up being permanently out of the job. In flying, outside of injuries, the common cold/URTI's would account for the majority of sick leave taken. The other "gotcha" occurs from the environment itself - breathing the recirculated air all day lomg from hundreds of passengers, a lot of whom are carrying the "bugs" adds insult to injury and contributes to a greater incidence of picking up these infections in the work environment. I would suspect that crew on solely freight operations wouldn't develop as many colds etc during the course of a year as what pilots carrying passengers pick up.

[Tankengine]

In addition re URTIs, our company INSISTS on us not going to work as we may infect an entire crew who then may need to go sick overseas, cancelling flights and causing millions of dollar losses!:ugh:

[Australopithecus]

Camel Squadron is the kind of bloke who would stop at a traffic accident. In hopes of lifting a victim's wallet.