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wingtip777
16th May 2002, 13:45
Hello all!
once i took off from Los Angles international airport, the controller gave me a instruction: ''no speed restrictions" . at that time , we were about 2000ft. does that mean i don`t have to comply with the restriction of 250kts below 10000ft?
thanks!

Wino
16th May 2002, 16:35
Depends, were you going east or west?
Once 12 miles off shore you are free to go speed of heat.

If you were going east over land he may have been deleting a sid speed restriction of something less than 250 below ten or a restriction to maintain 250 even above 10 ( I seam to recall one of the LAX sids had a maintain 250 till further notice)

The only place on the CONUS currently where you can excede 250 below 10 is Houston which has an ongoing trial of removing the speed restriction.

There maybe several reasons for the push to remove the speed restrictions, one of which is referred to as the "Dallas bump" which is that the rates of climb by some aircraft are so great at 250 knots they they are causing tcas RA's bumping the whole stack up. Also its pretty silly on departure and just costs fuel.



Cheers
Wino

Intruder
16th May 2002, 19:33
In some places the 250-below-10 limit (or similar) is strictly enforced. Seoul comes to mind, with a 230-below-13 (or is it 220) limit in the terminal area on approach, and 250 on climbout. Without specific clearance to exceed the limit, we must use Flaps 1 on climbout at heavy weights (747-400) to comply.

quid
16th May 2002, 20:26
W777-

A couple of our pilots reported the same "clearance" out of LAX and DTW a few weeks ago. We researched it fully, and the controller has NO authority to waive the 250 knot restriction. As Wino says, IAH is the only airport in the US that allows it on departures.

If you're within 12 miles of the shoreline, the max speed is 250 below 10,000. (Unless your a/c requires higher.)

Captain Stable
16th May 2002, 21:16
Agreed. "No ATC speed restriction" only removes the requirement to keep to SID or STAR speed limits. 250 below 10,000 is not at the controller's discretion and, except in cases as noted above, always applies.

Intruder
17th May 2002, 00:59
"Requires higher" may be a technically imperfect term (this is the "tech" log forum after all)... ;)

The 747-400 is "able" to maintain 250 at all weights at Flaps 1, but cannot do so at heavy weights with flaps up. We can legally accelerate to "clean" climb airspeed and retract the flaps below 10,000 feet under FAR 91.117(d) [and equivalent rules in other areas].

Dale Harris
17th May 2002, 10:19
Here in OZ, and no we're not as busy as most of you guys, if ATC gives you no speed restrictions below 10 000, that is exactly what it means, descent or climb. Happens pretty regularly in ML, that's for sure.

Wee Weasley Welshman
17th May 2002, 15:31
Speaking from a UK background if the controller owns the airspace and grants you no speed restriction then you can do 320kts down finals if you want. OUTSIDE of controlled airspace 250<fl100 is mandatory.

WWW

boofhead
18th May 2002, 01:03
In most countries ATC can allow speeds higher than posted, but in the US the 250 or minimum safe speed limit cannot be relaxed by ATC except as shown in Notams. It is a safety requirement based on the large number of light, VFR traffic.

LAX gives "High speed/Normal speed" because many pilots operating into there are not aware of FAR91.117 which allows speeds above 250 if required for safety of the flight (such as a heavy 747 on departure). They are sick of wasting time telling those pilots what they should already know, and so will issue a 'high speed' clearance to every airplane on departure, even if you don't ask. It does not mean unrestricted speed, you still have to comply with FAR91.117. Of course, it is not necessary to ask for min safe speed on departure, but those pilots trained in Europe and Asia will continue to do so, since they are not aware that rules are different in the US (an ICAO country, nevermind).

In SFO (and other places) you will be given a 250 speed restriction on the SID. This is for ATC speed control and in that case you will have to request a higher speed if you need it for minumum safe (flaps up).

I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. The rest of us are waiting for a chance to get a word in. This is especially true on Ground freq. The ATIS tells us to only readback 'Hold Short' instructions. it would help a lot.

LYKA
18th May 2002, 18:12
www

I think that if issued no speed and you are still on a SID then 265 kts is the max until given a vector off the SID:eek:

Wee Weasley Welshman
18th May 2002, 18:19
Yes - by saying the controller "owns" the airspace I meant Class A. Class D is merely controlled by him/her.

265kts on a SID is new to me.

WWW

LYKA
18th May 2002, 20:18
www

I think it's in the ANO... don't quote me though!

Anyways, you can't 'speed her up' to 310 kts whilst on the SID cos you'll go out side of the defined airspace (?) with the turn radius etc.:rolleyes:

PPRuNe Radar
18th May 2002, 21:29
WWW and BIK

You both need to re read the books ;)

In UK Class A, B, and C (though we don't have any of the latter), there is NO LIMIT at any time, unless specified, for example on departure SIDs out of LHR or inbound STARs.

In Class D, ATC may authorise relaxation of the speed limit if they wish and can meet some conditions.

For all other classes, which includes Class E controlled airspace, there is a mandatory 250Kts below 10K restriction.

http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4Y291.PDF

West Coast
19th May 2002, 05:19
Boofhead
Amen on the readbacks at LAX. The frequency congestion is bad enough there without every transmission being repeated back, sometimes down to the altimeter

LeadSled
21st May 2002, 09:57
All,
Which all goes to prove --- Ya gotta cotton to what youse is doing, where ever you are.

About the only thing that is standard is that so many countries do it "their way".

RE; US, the AIM has a very clear statement of the meaning of the phrase "No ATC speed restriction".

Re: US FAR 91.117(d) ONLY the pilot in command has the legal authority to determine what "minimum safe speed" is, there is no "right answer", it is the responsibility of the Pilot in Command and nobody else. See also FAR 91.3.

For what it's worth, in a -400 heavy, I will not operate with flap out for one minute longer than necessary to clean up, on the basis of the O negative G limit, with any flap extended, alone. I can't forecast smooth air, can you.

Tootle pip !!

Wee Weasley Welshman
21st May 2002, 16:41
PPRuNe Radar - thanks for that. Was unaware that Class D speeds could be waived.

WWW

ILScat3c
24th May 2002, 20:09
if u are in US class B airspace and 12 or more miles from the coast 250kts still applies.

BmPilot21
26th May 2002, 16:36
"Amen on the readbacks at LAX. The frequency congestion is bad enough there without every transmission being repeated back, sometimes down to the altimeter"

"I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. "

I've never operated into LAX - but isn't reading back a clearance a vital part of flight safety? You must get a lot of level busts / near misses etc. Perhaps you should get some more frequencies to ease the congestion! I understand why so many US pilots sound so gash in Europe now!

West Coast
27th May 2002, 05:24
I am not really sure what sounding gash means, but I can imagine.
I listen to European carriers repeat back clearances verbatim. Hit the highlights and important stuff only. One small example is the altimeter. Repeat the numbers only, not the word also. Multiply that and others out and it gives you alot of frequency congestion with no additional level of safety achieved.

jumbojohn
27th May 2002, 07:42
This topic of speed restrictions appears to have devoloped into a look at R/T standards, which I think is worth comparing around the world. Speaking as a "Brit" I like the way our American friend group numbers together, I find it easier to remember, readback and takes a little less valuable airtime. Also there are so many stepped on transmissions nowadays that equipment like "Contran" that stops you doing so should be invested in by the airlines and ATC.

Captain Stable
27th May 2002, 09:44
With regard to reading back only the numbers and leaving out the rest of it, I once heard an exchange something like the following (details changed to protect the guilty) :-

"xxxx 321, turn left heading 120 degrees, speed 180 knots, descend flight level 130 and contact Director on 123.45"
"12018013012345321 - what a load of b******s!"

Sorry, for me it doesn't add to the clarity or (therefore) safety.

Ruslan
27th May 2002, 16:18
Further to Rune Radar said

250 KIAS below 10K not actually applied for whole world, you guys haven't mentioned allowed 270KIAS below 3 thousand meters over Russia ;) they all rather will be thanksfull to you not stucking down to 250 knots having Tupolev behind you at the same time.... hehehe :D

Right Way Up
28th May 2002, 00:31
Maybe the extended readbacks in Lax are a result of Europeans experiences in LAX. I have had 2 near-misses and 10 TCAS RAs operating into LAX in 5 years all caused by gash operators. Half have been some bloody puddle-jumper trying to formate on my wing on finals to give their pax a view.

P.S. Considering the majority of worldwide accidents are CFIT, I think altimeter readbacks are a great idea (and SHOULD be checked by US ATC!!)

West Coast
28th May 2002, 05:15
Right way up
Sorry but you hit one of my pet peeves, a near miss is a hit.

I operate in and out of LAX two to four times a day, you sir just have bad luck.

Orca strait
28th May 2002, 18:15
Proper R/T procedures and phraseology are an absolute must. Its easy to lose site of this if you are working in a local environment in your own language, but for the rest of the aviation world, English may not be their first language.

Not everyone works in inches mercury for altimeters, Mb's and Hpas are the norm outside North America. Transition levels are not the straight forward 18,000 feet as well as the use of feet or meters.

My rule of thumb; always convey R/T, checklist challenge and response as though the recipient does not speak English as their first language. In other words, clear, concise and standard.

I think you may find that under airmanship somewhere.

Cheers,

NorthernSky
28th May 2002, 22:34
The distinction relates to the traffic environment.

In the US there may be VFR traffic in the 'CAS' system, working on 'see and avoid'. Therefore, ATC cannot relax the 250kts speed restriction.

In the UK, Class A airspace is an environment in which all traffic is (a) known and (b) controlled, so 'see and avoid' is unnecessary (though it remains the final means of avoiding collisions, as the UKAB constantly reminds us), therefore, the speed restriction may be relaxed by ATC.

The pilot is at all times responsible for navigating the aircraft and for complying with SID tracks, though he is not provided with the relevant information to do this (in sufficient detail).

The pilot does, in the circumstances in which 'No ATC speed restriction' has been communicated, retain the right to fly at standard speeds. We should bear in mind that the ANO says, basically, that the speed restriction is 250kts below FL100. If a policeman told you 'you may drive along the motorway at 100mph' would you do it?

Hope this helps. It's worth trying to hang onto the 'big picture' before reaching for the books.

Back Seat Driver
6th Jun 2002, 11:19
Boofy sounds pretty good to me, just one note of caution- On departures to the west from LA, the Class B airspace extends to about 16dme LAX vor, So if you are doing the Perch departure, might be better to wait until then to clean up, rather than relying on being outside the USA contigous zone (12nm). Speed increase to Maouvering speed 'Flaps up' is what is on offer, when offered no speed restrictions. As stated the controller has no authority to cancel speed requirements, he/she is really just saying THEY have no objection.

WhatsaLizad?
8th Jun 2002, 03:27
No speed restriction on climbout in Europe or other areas outside the U.S. seems nice, but in some areas, especially Houston, I wouldn't accept it due to the fact it is on a major migratory bird route. Since we weren't given any guidance by ATC,FAA or my company on the seasonal bird patterns, I'd take a vector off course and let the guy behind me do a Boeing windshield test.

Until there is more guidance and research on the subject, I'll pass on the warp speed climb.


My company had a B767-300ER out of CDG going through a flock of something at around 12,000. They were most likely 340 kts +, bird parts penetrated the cockpit and various wing and engine points. No injuries, safe landing. From the pictures of the aircraft nose area, it looked like a FW-190 made a head on pass with the cannons. ;)

ETOPS773
10th Jun 2002, 10:36
I heard of a UAL 757 Jumping straight out of LAX and maintaining 6000ft/min climb profile at one point :eek: ..check out www.airliners.net forums for more details,got a photo of instrument display VSI,350 kts,got to cruising altitude quickly needless to say!!!

In the UK..i`m not sure how accurate it is,I was a passenger on a Virgin 747-400,G-VROY,and after t/o they put on the skymap.
On there it displays altitude,airspeed and outside temperature,aswell as a cool mini-map of where your going!maybe scroggs could tell how accurate it is,but after t/o,bound for KMCO,at 4000ft we were at 330 kts according to the sky map,and weren`t on a SID as far as I could tell,think the only SID from EGKK from 26L west is SAM(2M)???

So yeah..the 250 rule can be broken it seems...

Stephen.

Eff Oh
12th Jun 2002, 14:33
Another reason you can bust 250kts below FL100 is:-
If ATC give you a radar heading or a direct to, followed by "No ATC speed restriction." You aint on a SID anymore so you have no speed limit.
With regard to the 330kts at 4000ft on the Virgin B747-400:- Not sure you would need a 747 pilot to tell us what the bird strike speed limit is. On the B757 is is a maximum of 313kts below 8000ft. This then becomes OUR max speed until we climb above 8000ft.
Eff Oh. :)

wondering
13th Jun 2002, 11:00
Changing slightly the direction of the topic. But, what is the standard pilot RT call to 'no speed restriction'. Most times I hear 'no speed' or 'own speed'. I kinda prefer 'own speed' since 'no speed' does sound silly to me. Am I wrong?