Vueling pilots union request wage increase

[Magnetic Iron]

According to the El Diaro Online press

¨Vueling pilots have called on the management of the company " paid according to the market and not below ":D in negotiating the Collective Agreement , as well as improvements in quality of life through a strengthening of the programming operations .

Andrea Calcagni , representative Sepla - Vueling Union , told Efe that is not true that the pay scales of Vueling copilots are in the levels of Iberia after the signing of the agreement between the technical crew of this company and the company.

Calcagni said that the agreement reached with the lowest level of input in Iberia has been set at 35,000 Euros per year , while Vueling this level does not exceed 11,000 Euros base pay per year,

The representative of the pilots recalled that the first Vueling Collective Agreement was signed "with great effort, as was the merger with Clickair at a time when both companies had losses."

Therefore ,the Vueling management has rejected a fixed pay increase , " mainly because it is not formed by the same people who signed the above, " the commitment to sign the lowest wages for a pay increase in the negotiation of the Second Convention was accepted " as is the case of Luis Gallego, who is now the president of Iberia " .

In addition, the Sepla Vueling pilot union criticized the management of Vueling for non clearance of wage increases for 550 airline pilots and propose that wages remain as before.¨:=

[macdo]

I think the words "some chance" spring to mind, but good on 'em for trying.

[polax52]

I think If you guys stick together and cooperate with each other and the union, discipline within the ranks. Something the British Pilots are always unable to achieve because of this prehistoric Thatchorite mentality that still exists. Then there is a very good chance of achieving your goals.

All you need is a series of 2 minute strikes during rush hour periods. Within that 2 minutes all Pilots are in uniform, within the terminal of the Airport where ever they are and providing leaflet information to passengers regarding the reasons they have been forced to cause this disruption.

[Abbey Road]

polax52, have you had any experience of dealings within the International Airlines Group (IAG)? It doesn't sound like it.

[polax52]

"Experience of dealings with international airlines group", is that a prerequisite to posting on a public thread?

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

I agree with Polax, yes Abbey it will not be easy for the Vueling pilots.


I say that united and resolute they have a good chance. You saw the number 11,000 Euros base pay per year, there is a lot of room for a pay increase. Vueling has a huge cash reserve, and has been profitable for a number of quarters, and contributed to a an improvement in IAG´s share price.
Meanwhile the company can maintain their cost structure with their growth and a pay increase, Vueling´s current labour cost ( including non pilots ) as a % of revenue, is the second lowest in Europe, lower than Ryanair´s.


The headline reads they will be fighting for market conditions, not below. Understand, they are asking to get closer in pay to Easyjet, not the same pay. Apparently, Vueling pilots are united behind their SEPLA Vueling union.


The lowest pay of the lowest paid Vueling pilots affect European pilots and British, as its pay could be used against your companies union in future negotiations, as Vueling grows in Europe, do you agree ?


One thing they the management like to do is play one pilot group against another. For example moving production from Iberia to British Airways. For British it will possibly come to moving production to a cheaper sources of labour in the short haul to Vueling.


Would it not be in the interest of British Airways pilots to support Vueling pilots in their battle against a ridiculously low pay scale ? As this could affect them in the future. Would it not be better for IAG pilots to work towards being more united ( not easy at all ) in the future ? Are there not IAG working groups coming in the future ?


It appears to me that managements seem to be rather coordinated in their attacks to lower pay in Europe, is it not time for pilots in Europe to be more united ( yes extremely difficult ) through ECA and IFALPA. As management threaten to move production from cheaper pilot group to another ? This trend of lowering pilot pay needs to stop somewhere.


When pilot pay is lowered such as in the case of Vueling, does the money saved go to the shareholders ?






http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01909/ceopay2_1909018i.jpg










CEOs Paid 273 Times More Than Workers In 2012: Study (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/26/ceos-paid-times-more-than-workers_n_3504821.html)

[seasexsun]

Vueling pays as low as wizzair does.

I have no sympathy to the Vueling boys, hiring 200 hours stupid cadets with their trouser down, accepting ANYTHING to be able to sit in an A320. A 6 month contract and 830 euros gross per month plus a type rating to pay. Then you have lots of heavy landings, tailstrikes, crap english language on ATC. This airline is just a flying school. Plus they do have lots of maintenance issues. Lots, lots of issues. The spanish CAA is very concerned about that.

[hyatt_1_alpha]

At the risk of stirring the hornets nest, come on guys, get real here. The job of airline pilot is a grossly overpaid one.

High salaries were justified in times past, because aircraft systems were complex to operate, navigation skilled and aircraft unreliable.

At best, the terminal threat to the career from unmanned airliners can only be delayed. Flight crews will have to get over themselves and rightly accept lower and lower T&Cs to stave of reality.

STOP MOANING ALL YOU NIGELS, something is better than nothing even if your standard of living is trashed.

[Magnetic Iron]

hyatt, you are funny guy on a pilot forum, so funny that I forgot to laugh.

I will take the bait to this wind up, as I will take your comment as a sick wind up joke.

Hyatt Alpha

Ask the passengers who were on the flight that landed on the Hudson River if they think pilots are overpaid Nigels, ha ?

As many birds still keep flying this could happen again.

Read this link Hyatt Alpha

Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger To Congress: My Pay Has Been Cut 40 Percent In Recent Years, Pension Terminated (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/24/chesley-sully-sullenberge_0_n_169512.html)

[LEMG]

Seasexsun, you should get better informed about some stuff...Most of the guys who entered in the last 2 years have more than 1000 TT.
Where did you get the info about "a lot" of maintenance issues, tail strikes etc?
Regarding the "crap English" if you are referring to thick Spanish accent I would point out that there is actually quite a few Europeans amongst its staff and it's definitely not the worst Spanish airline

[calypso]

Lets feed the troll...

We might be overpaid bus drivers in the eyes of some but while we have the key to ground the system to a stop at a cost of many millions we have bargaining power. Most people these days are not shy of using and abusing their bargaining power (specially CEOs) and neither should we. All that before we bring into play who would you like at the controls in the mythical stormy night.

[seasexsun]

More than 1000 hours TT waooo respect respect :}

What kind of experience, is that FI overlogging hours in VFR in spain or block hours in MIami or is that bush pilot experience or king air or metro.

Fact is that most guys are unexperienced, with a bad english level rounded up to icao level 4, they are ******* desesperate to join an airline based in spain on an A320, even for a 6 months contract with a basic pay of 830 euros/month before tax and a randam roster with 4 long sectors a day in the morning back home to rest 10 hours and back to night flights for a 2 long sectors etc etc etc.

Yes lots of maintenance issues at vueling, and the spanish CAA is behind them. Lots of nogos and captains under pressure to leave the ramp with a MEL restriction. Many problems with heavy landings due to lack of experience and proper training quality.

[LEMG]

Yes, 1000 TT (many as FI IR) is not a lot but it's still much more than 200 TT required at RYR, EZY and even BA.
I agree that their working conditions are not the best in the market, but I would rather earn around €2000 during the 1st/2nd year(with social security, pension, license insurance, permanent contract after usually 12 months approx. for the vast majority...and my chosen base) than for instance work for RYR earning much more but with the working conditions that we all know.
Still waiting for evidence of the maintenance issues, nogos and MEL non- compliance you are referring to.
What you are stating is not completely true, there could be some isolated cases, but this is definitely not the norm.
I am not justifying in any case the company policy and their behaviour during the negotiations with SEPLA and in fact I think it is essential that there is an agreement that improves the working conditions and is more in line with other low cost such as EZY or NAS.

[hyatt_1_alpha]

Calypso

Who would I like at the controls on a stormy night?

Considering that NASA, the doyen of things technical, flying and team-working, now deem humans as approaching the end of their useful shelf life as a species, citing slowness compared to soon up-comping computer power plus the cost to the planet of consumption of finite resources, my answer is ... computer(s) will do very nicely and not some pilot with a false sense of entitlement, bemoaning the fact that airlines are struggling to make a profit because they're paying FAR too much to their under-worked pilots.

[Elephant and Castle]

NASA? Wow. Impressive.

[seasexsun]

1000 hours TT is NOT the minimum requirement to join "Craping", the minimum is to have a CPL with 150 hours TT, and if you are from a partner school FTO it's even better. Before Vueling was merged into Clickair the minimum was 1500 hrs TT.

What about the Vueling chief pilot, spaniard ex Britania Airways who used to be very well paid and treated long time ago and explains now to the applicants that what they offer at Vueling is a 6 month contract ONLY with the type rating to be paid and a ridiculous salary of 830 euros gross per month and he dares to add "if you have a family to feed, if you have a house to pay, please stand up and leave the room, this job is NOT for you". This clown is making 15000 euros plus a month and flies very little which is good for is hoppies like montain bike and twitter.

I am in Air Europa and I really dont care about vueling but I have many friends treated like **** or experienced friends that just cant find a job in spain because Vueling is taking over all the market at low cost and hires friends of friends with NO experience and very little skills.

[samca]

I did the interview with Vueling in Barcelona in April 2012, I passed all their ridículous tests. After a week I recieved a Mail from RRHH congratulating me I was in and they would call me when the company need me.

After 7 months no news from the company, Vueling did a new pilot selection. I still was in the pool waiting so i decided to call. The answer of the company was that I had too much experience and they had changed the pilot profile. :D

My experience was around 2000 hours, 1000 light jet and ATPL licence.

After that I decided to go out of Spain. Now I'm flying 737NG and the company paid for my type rating.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

There is no doubt that Vueling pilots are paid way below the market rate, and I have no doubt their senior management are paid way above it. The problem facing Vueling, and indeed all pilots, is that if 30 of their pilots resigned tomorrow there would be 150 willing to take their place at exactly the same money. In other words, the rate of pay is determined by market forces and not what a person is worth in terms of responsibility. Vueling is now the future for British Airways, and they intend to use these economic facts (i.e. their pilots cost less than everyone else's) to really go into attack on their low cost competitors (Ryanair, easyJet, Norwegian principally, but of course Iberia as well which is a fight within a war). I do not expect this to turn into anything other than a token shout at management, who care not a jot what their pilots do or think.

[polax52]

This supply and demand debate does not hold any water whatsoever in arguing pilot pay. This is why Airline management make so much effort to splinter pilot groups. The biggest factor in Pilot pay is bargaining power. If Pilots are united management are aware that we can sit aircraft on the ground and that will cost a hell of lot more than the underlying dispute.

The disappointing fact is we are not united in Europe and we therefore allow pay and conditions to be hammered.

[captplaystation]

polax52 & Syntax Error,

You have summed the situation up perfectly, we are both blind, & our own worst enemies.

Let's see what Norwegian offer as a "permanent contract" in Spain in May (AGP base opened May 2012. . . . or will we try the same "extension" to 3 years used in HEL base ? )

At this moment we will see if the new goalposts are "Vueling" wide or (old) "Iberia" wide . . . anyone want to wager where this is going. . . . . .?

[4468]

This is rather funny, in an ironic kind of way.

An agile, low cost (low wage!) wholly owned subsidiary takes a significant bite out of a legacy carrier's SH operation. It does so precisely BECAUSE it is 'low wage'! But as soon as these low paid workers get the gig and their feet under the table, and 'oust' the fat cats, suddenly they don't want to be 'low paid' any more!!

Exactly the same thing happened with BACX/BA Connect! Where are THEY now?:rolleyes:

Vueling pilots have absolutely ZERO chance of any meaningful improvement in their T&Cs unless they take significant and prolonged industrial action. Have they the guts? Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Are T&Cs like Vueling's good for pilots anywhere? No of course not. It will inevitably reduce the quality of people prepared to take on such low paid work.

Does anyone think that's a good thing? Or would you like high quality people doing the driving of these complex machines when they seal you into that aluminium tube and point you to the heavens?:rolleyes:

[Magnetic Iron]

Right on Polax !

According to sources, the Vueling pilots union is fighting for a pay closer to Easyjet, in the low cost realm, and below Easyjet pay, yet nearer. With a reasonable increase in pilot pay the company will stll be low cost, and have a competitive CAKO. Vueling pilots are becoming more and more united and resolute, support their union, lets see.

Definitely not Easy, pardon the pun.

¨ It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things.¨ Theodore Roosevelt

[despegue]

Gentlemen,

Any Officer, in any airline who does not want better conditions for his/hers counterparts in a different company is not worth the name colleague, nor aviator. Instead, they are egoistic, short sighted leeches.

Rant over.

[4468]

despegue
Any Officer, in any airline who does not want better conditions for his/hers counterparts in a different company is not worth the name colleague, nor aviator. Instead, they are egoistic, short sighted leeches.
I couldn't agree more.

Look how Vueling have helped to 'improve' the T&Cs at Iberia!

[Superpilot]

BBC News - BA and Iberia owner swings back into profit in 2013 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26381746)

[Magnetic Iron]

With this profit below Vueling can afford to pay their pilots more decently and stay profitable. A conflict with their pilots, and a possible strike would also cost money as well.

Curious isnt how CEO´s reward themselves, while the pilots do not get even a fixed pay increase. Is that right ?


¨Low cost Spanish carrier Vueling, which was acquired in April 2013, registered an operating profit of €137 million¨ for 2013


IAG boss Walsh offered major share bonus for successful turnaround

Willie Walsh, the boss of British Airways’ parent International Airlines Group, could potentially receive a bonus worth double his basic salary if he succeeds in turning the loss-making company around by 2016.

IAG's losses cost Willie Walsh his bonus for 2012 but the aviation chief could receive more than double his basic salary in shares if he turns the company around over the next three years.

The aviation veteran, who led the 2011 merger of BA with Spain’s Iberia to form IAG, stands to receive a maximum award of 684,647 shares, which at today’s prices are worth £1.7m.

The long-term incentive award, laid out in a stock exchange announcement on Wednesday, would be dependent on meeting strict performance targets between 2013 and 2016.¨

[askell]

Very interesting discussion guys. Does anyone have up to date information about current salary for F/O and CPT in Vueling ? I heard some data, found some other on the net and I have to say that it's hard to define an opinion from such different values. Thanks.

[captplaystation]

Heard Capt total take-home €4500+/- given that newly promoted Capts in Ryanair can look forward to a "Ryanair" contract (as opposed to the "self-employed" version they had as FO's) offering total of €4200, the Vueling figure seems (regrettably ) credible . . . even if it is "unbelievable" :=

I have been told new FO's struggle to clear €1500.

[askell]

:ooh: I couldn't imagine that it was that bad... From this point of view, EZY in Lisbon looks pretty nice...

[Field In Sight]

Vueling pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Vueling)

Seems better than 4300 euro / mth for Captains on here.

The pension looks pretty poor though.

[captplaystation]

It claims €6500/mth for 90 hr block time for new Capt. Given that is only possible for 10mths (due 900hr max ) that is €65000/year.

Divide by 12 & you have at best €5500/mth, and I bet most are on the lower end of the pay scales.

On that basis, if you don't do max hrs in year €4500 still sounds horribly possible.

[wind check]

The chief pilot is well above 15000€ a month for 4 sectors flown. :E

[OPEN DES]

Maybe. But he has to sit in an office all day. Attend boring meetings. Write emails all day.

[OPEN DES]

Well. Comes down to preferences I guess.
It was meant tongue in cheek anyhow.
I do some office work and wouldn't do it full-time for anything less than posted above.

Anyway.. To come back to the subject.

A junior capt in VLG earns the quoted amounts. The senior guys/trainers are on higher basic salaries (still very low though). Where the trainers make money is on the simsessions. I believe a TRE gets 700 euros/session in addition. Basically the senior guys have sold out on the new-entrants / new upgrades when signing the collective labour agreement.

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Enough is enough say the Vueling pilots.

Apparently according to a source, and the Spanish press, the union is negotiating for a reasonable increase in pay for the new Captains and Junior FO´s. In the next agreement the junior ones would benefit the most, if the company were to accept, their offer, which they have not, supposedly.?

While the company expands and makes a profit, with the biggest
there are FO´s in Vueling with children, paying off a loan for their type rating, and have a mortgage who are unable to make ends meet at Vueling.

These guys who have been FO´s for more than two years are pissed off.

A storm cloud seems to be brewing.

[737Jock]

I do some office work and wouldn't do it full-time for anything less than posted above.

I bet nobody held a gun to your head and made you do office work though...:E