So, how's that pay rise coming?

[Didacts and Narpets]

I read the recent newsletter while scratching my head. Is it me or did it really say well, nothing? Oh wait, the bases issue is NOT going well. Huh? Three months now and nothing has been achieved by your AOA. There may be a problem with your negotiating team I must say. The demand was for a pay rise and then work on the issues no?

Your new GMA is truly brilliant. So far she has convinced you that you have a say in the RA and GFBA. She has NOT given you a cent and has talked you out of CC. How they must chuckle every week after meeting with the AOA.

Your new AFTLs have now been crammed right down your throats and they have even told you now they will (as they always have been) violate your RPs. Please tell me If I am reading this wrong.

I was truly rooting for you but your AOA is letting you (and us)down. I think you should not waste any more time. Recall your president, the GC and the negoatiating committee. Have new elections and go right into CC.

Cathay will drag this out as long as they can. Trust me. You guys are being played.

Best of luck from the boys at KA. If the merger does come you might want better representation.:ugh:

[raven11]

Dan
His rant was not about a merger...it was about a well meaning and well intentioned GC being led down the proverbial garden path...once again.

[joblow]

It ain't coming unless we do something about it

[Gnadenburg]

DB the merger is already happening.

KA is fast approaching 2 years to command for new joiners and the training system looks as though it has been righted to achieve fast growth; which incidentally appears to be over CX routes. Penang has just started and Denpasar is not far away. Murmurs of other CX routes too.

The privileges you may expect from a merger of pilot groups appear to be able to be bought by KA pilots giving up certain items in their COS.

Yes, CX F/O's must be very unrepresented over your way. You appear to have given away growth and opportunity which was available for very little.

I said it years ago that KA pilots would have been stupid to merge with CX even in a fair and equitable manner. It's played out as predicted with rapid growth - which is now to the advantage of new joiners on C scale contracts and the kids they rip off the street and put straight into the RHS as MPL's. Why CX pilots would not have had the foresight to defend against this assault instead of barking away in stupidity about bottom of the list mergers?

[Liam Gallagher]

D&N,

For some reason, whenever I read your posts I get the impression that you really are a CX pilot. Perhaps it is because you always seem to post about CX politics and never KA politics.

Please tell us about KA's recent payrise and how your new AFTLs are vastly superior to ours. Top of the HKAOA's shopping list has always been integration with KA so we can get access to your superior representation and superior T&C's, Bases and lifestyle rosters. It's the only thing discussed on a CX Flightdeck. (nah....just kidding)

[Sergeant Rock]

I'll tell you about it Liam. It was a 3 year deal where we got 5% year 1 then 3% years 2 and 3. I think D and N feels that whatever the AOA negotiate may affect KA - I personally doubt it but what do I know I just fly an airbus? We should have answers in the next month or so on our next pay deal I would imagine.

As far as our superior terms and conditions go it may surprise you that in many cases they are just that, certainly for many B scalers. 25 year housing, travel fund, a great leave system and as far as lifestyle goes we get a good choice of preferences thanks and time to command much lower than yours.
Bases - well we used to have one but then CX decided to close that on us and merge it in to your freighter operation. It's horses for courses though isn't it? How many guys at CX are really going to ever see a base? Not many I suspect.

No we don't get W patterns and we don't get to go to New York or Chicago but you'll find most of us are quite happy with our lot. Two different companies with (particularly in CX's case) a host of different contracts. You pays your money and you takes your choice. No need to come over all superior about it.

[sodapop]

From what I know, you are correct in saying that many of KA's T&Cs are better than those of CX. So, then why is D&N reading our AOA newsletter?

If a merger is going to happen, nothing written here will, help, hinder or otherwise influence it.

Relax, enjoy and mind your own business mate. In another language you might say "fatti i cazzi tuoi".


That said, perhaps, the AOA and Dragon Pilot's Union could/should work closer together.

Cheers,
Soda

[Didacts and Narpets]

On how you treated our 747 pilots? It won't happen again I assure you.

I read your newsletters because I can and am interested as you are the bigger of the two companies but it appears we have faired better than you. I think it's because you might lack true resolve and CX knows how to manipulate your leadership and membership. You constantly jump up and down making demands but never really accomplish a thing. It's like watching breaking bad. You know what he his and you know it's wrong but you can't help but watch.

I wish our bigger brother would fight but you just won't. We can't fight for you but rest assured if a merger happens, and quite frankly I hope it doesn't judging by how you are treated and take it, we won't be stapled. You can't defend yourselves so you won't stop us getting our seniority.

Now this thread was not an us vs. you. Their is no us vs. you. Keep your eye on the topic please.

So again, how's that pay rise coming?

[sodapop]

You read our newsletters because someone sends then to you, not because you are allowed.

I fly daily with the ex-Dragon 747 pilots. Most are fairly satisfied. Good guys and many friends. Most didn't, obviously, choose to remain in hkg flying daily into the atc chaos which is China.
When you say "how you treated our 747 pilots", I assume you mean how CX management treated them, otherwise, I would be inclined to tell you to FO.

Most had/have families in Europe and accepted an opportunity to remain living there.

What did your union do to stop it? Much the same as they will/can do nothing to stop you from being eventually stapled.

When/if we get a pay rise, I'm sure you'll be among the first to know. Living in Hkg with all of it's benefits must have taken away all your passion for real life. As mentioned above, relax and enjoy your great pilot package. But, since you're so bored, you should ask whoever forwards you the newsletters to give you his AOA info so you can start posting on the AOA forums.

When I'm next bored on a layover, maybe I'll ask my Emirates mates if I can post on their forum, how dull...

As to keeping an eye on the topic, I believe it was you who first made reference to a merger...see your initial post.

Get a life mate.

Cheers,

Soda

[badairsucker]

wow Jizz,

How mature!

With mature comments like that I really hope we don't have to join you lot in any way.:=

[404 Titan]

F**k I hate willy wagging. Who has the biggest willy is pointless when we have the same goals. Divide and conquer is a well established tactic of CX management and some of you play into it beautifully. Big picture people, big picture and be aware of management trolls getting on here fueling the fire.

[Threethirty]

Which is the best job between CX and KA? Neither, Emirates is!

[Yonosoy Marinero]

EK? Heck, At the rate things are going, we'll soon be looking up to Lionair pilots...
:(

[Kacrazy]

I for one find working for KA repetitive , fatiguing and to be quite honest, boring. It's certainly does pay the bills, and I've yet to find anything worth resigning for,but it's become a particularly uninspiring place to work. And emotionally unrewarding.

I'd love to fly to NYC, breakfast at Balthazars, drink a few beers in soho, but that's not available. We have nothing thats even even a poor substitute. *I did not apply to CX. If I was younger I would prefer CX, period. KA has little lifestyle choices. We have monthly options but they rarely soften the mundane nature of our work. An old hand once told me you should never join a company primarily for a quick command. It's about more than this. Once the promotion arrives at KA, the frustrations of being a dead end career starts to dawn,

KA is certainly in the CX shadow. And 20 years ago, CX was THE place to work. The company. Well at least for pilots who could not achieve employment through their own countries legacy carriers. Working for the second *choice carrier L
in HK was still fine. There was ambition, and a certain community feel that KA was the undiscovered jem of an airline. However this is long gone, and since the takeover, the stagnation arrived. Yes we may go to Bali, or Penang, but who really cares, it's just because our job in china is comparatively so bad, and escape is better.*

The majority of CX pilots are now not the old gentry of past. Generally they are a mixture of low timers and career wannabes. This is fine, as the only way into CX now is the low ball, low TnCs job. Again fine if you are 25 with 2000 hours of*
air taxi. KA did attract the more mature, experienced pilot. Most joined for 1) Money, 2) opportunity. A relatively quick command follows for the right guys. No one fails command now at KA. Funny how commercialism interferes with the chopper brigade of the 2nd floor.

Anyway, we choose our paths in life and deep the rewards or suffer the consequences. As a percentage of expats in hk, the pilots are quite high. It's common for a bunch of pilots from CX or KA to be spotted drinking at the plaza.*
I believe the job has lost its prestige because to be honest there are too many pilots stuffed into a few *areas in hk, many on each others door step. The kudos is not there, and underhanded comments of who's best or who flies the Trippler are common.*

Regrettably, the ownership of KA by Swire has constipated the company. It's let the deadwood prosper on the 2nd floor, taking their bonus, smirking over their lattes in the KA cafe. Loving their polarized lifestyles of flying once a week and sailing on a weekend. I know this is the CX way, but at least your guys have a backbone to address the pilot community.*

We have no minimum guarentee HDP. But if we did I guess it would make sickness rates increas. The incentive is not there.*

If I was flying to NYC, Sydney, London or LAX, I think I'd feel more personal esteem.*
OK I agree I made the wrong choice to joking KA. And boy am I now paying the personal cost.*

[BillytheKid]

You stay classy addicts and parents!

[KABOY]

What did your union do to stop it? Much the same as they will/can do nothing to stop you from being eventually stapled.

Errrr no....... They resigned and accepted a new contract bottom of the seniority under the guise 'rapid command upgrade'

Tell 500 pilots that they are bottom of the list CX and to suck it up........I don't think so. This has been a 'Pandoras Box' for management, why do you think it has not been addressed before?

Maybe wise heads from both associations need to sit down and formulate a reasonable integration.

Contentious statements will only create resentment and drive the resolve of the Dragonair pilots for a fair deal.

Maybe some of the DPA war chest can pay for the American/US airways attorneys?

[twotigers]

Not sure what all of you are one about.

This CX VS KA nonsense is only come up as management is trying to create infighting and steer focus from pay negotiations.

If anything AOA and DPA should be negotiating with CX for the SAME increase to both. Stop this divide and conquer nonsense.

CX has better routes/lifestyle. KA has easier body clock flying and better COS.

Those are facts.

If there was integration, it would happen without our input as it always has with SWIRE.

End this nonsense, and lets get back to attacking the company directly. TOGETHER.

[Liam Gallagher]

To answer the question about the progres of the payrise. You read our newsletters just the same as me, therefore, you tell me!!

Your refer to us as "big brother" and assume we have some form of obligation to fight for you; we have no such obligation. HKAOA fights for its fee-paying members, just as the DPA fights for their fee-paying members. We do not compete and I make no comment on the competency (or otherwise) of the DPA and shall be grateful if you would afford the same courtesy to us.

You mention how your ex-747 pilots were treated. Do you believe they were Ill-treated by the HKAOA, if so how? I can honestly say i have never heard any CX wish ill on Dragonair pilots; we do not compete. Equally, I have never heard any CX pilots, except the ex-Dragonair pilots, express any interest in merging/integrating the two seniority lists. It holds no attraction for us and given you are on superior T&Cs, it should hold no attraction for you. So why are we even discussing it, it's in neither of our interests.

If you or anyone believes Dragonair T&Cs are superior, then good for you. Enjoy your superior T&Cs. If anyone believes EK T&Cs are superior, good for them. A rising tide raises all boats.

We had a membership led Contract Compliance vote in September last year. Did you or anyone else in the DPA do similar? It's all well and good talking solidarity, but why not demonsrate some, or would you prefer we do all the heavy lifting?

[Progress Wanchai]

You don't like Willy Wagging 404 Titan???
Really??

Here's news. The only way any of us will see an improvement to our COS is to argue our "assets" aren't competitive. While we can stand next to our KA/CX brothers and argue we're at a natural disadvantage that's a good thing.

If we merge onto the same "size" contract that will be a worry. CX will have us standing next to a local HKA employee in no time with our pants down around our ankles laughing at our requests for a free phalloplasty.

At the moment we're like 2 spoiled brats, individually after our parents attention. That's good. The moment our parents cotton on and start giving (and taking away) to both equally at exactly the same time will be the time to leave the family.

They're after housing. Divided we may not conquer but we maybe able to hold the fort. Combined we're screwed.

Btw Jizz, a thousand morons voted for "This is NOT a request for a pay rise" but a request to talk.
We've had nothing but talks for 6 months. These guys must be deliriously happy with their success.

[Sergeant Rock]

Liam,

Just give it a rest now, you're making a fool of yourself…read up on the DPA/Contract Compliance and the associated sackings/demotions/reinstatements before you come out with rubbish like that!

'CX/AOA doing all the heavy lifting' - what a joke!

[404 Titan]

F**k there are some simpletons here. You are playing straight into your respective managements hands with this infighting BS. :ugh:

[Liam Gallagher]

"…read up on the DPA/Contract Compliance and the associated sackings/demotions/reinstatements...."

Enlighten me.

[Progress Wanchai]

Swearing, grammar mistakes and an emoticon.
404 Titan is one of the new age intellects.

[404 Titan]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[twotigers]

Sadly 404, this is why the AOA is ineffectual. Too many small dicks drawing focus off the issue onto their own tiny opinions, or mock other's spelling without taking on the content. I'm with you.

The ONE and only issue we need to address TODAY is pay.

Becoming mired in the abstract and in fighting is getting us no where.

So they laugh at us and move on.

[treboryelk]

Not sure about your numbers……

100 eggs + 10% - EFP + 6hrs per month = 110 eggs!

I'm buying lube for the baseball bat with my backdated 4 months pay…..a small tube if I'm lucky.

[FO Ho Lee Fuk]

The company are short on RQ guys... The sickness rate is very high, the morale is very low, we have the new FTL's handed to us, and we are preparing ourselves for the worst with these "good faith" negotiations...(read giving up more of our "benefits", for a possible minuscule pay adjustment). The AoA have taken matters into their own hands for now, but how much worse can this get before guys just give up? There must be an end to this madness, and it is obvious that a lot of the guys and girls are considering greener pastures elsewhere.

We are professionals, and to that end, we take pride in what we do, and who we are employed by. However from once being a career airline, it has already become nothing more than a place to make a salary and move on (read C scale). I find this most embarrassing!
I am not in HK for the lack of clean air & space, the sky high cost of living, being away from our families, and making a large sacrifice to my overall lifestyle for nothing.

The balance has already tipped toward the sh#t scale too far, the question is, how much further are we going to allow this to go?

[AnAmusedReader]

Do we negotiate credit hours, EFP and HDP under PAY or under RPs?

Just wondering if we go for an increase to salary scales and leave the rest for RPs.

[Liam Gallagher]

You elected your GC and they sit on the other side of the table and make a judgement as to the strength of the company's hand. To a large degree you just have to trust them as you made your decision when you decided not stand for the GC and elected someone else in your place.

I hear lots of bitching, but 10% of the membership could not get together back in December and get a stronger (less lame) motion that would force the GC to deal with pay, and just pay, on an "or else", basis.

Gents, we bought our ticket and now we have to enjoy the ride. The ride ends on the 30th of April and if you are handed a block of wood and bread knife and invited to carve yourself a baseball bat, we only have ourselves to blame.

PS And that final paragraph goes for KA as well! Still waiting for the enlightenment Sgt Rock!!

[Sergeant Rock]

Liam, we had two guys fired during our last period of contract compliance for refusing to bring an A330 back from Japan on their G days after diverting - i forget the details. I think one retained his position after being reinstated and the other spent 12 months as an FO.

My point was that there has been plenty of solidarity shown in the past by the members of the DPA, it's not the exclusive preserve of AOA members as you would have us all believe. It's annoying when people question DPA members' solidarity like you did without knowing all the facts - is that sufficient 'enlightenment' for you?

I wish you and everyone else in CX good luck in your dealings with the company and I hope they give us all a damn good pay rise, we all need it. Hong Kong is not getting any cheaper.

[ASH1111]

Liam, what you have said is a common misconception being propagated out there. The end of April is not when a deal will be presented, it is simply when our back-pay ends. I think it was a mistake for the company to make a date like this, because they have now set a deadline in the eyes of the pilots. Now, if something is not accomplished by April 30th (which it is not required to be) things will reach a boil point very quickly making for a loooong summer.

Barring unseen undercurrents, don't expect a deal by April 30th.:suspect:

[Liam Gallagher]

Sgt Rock,

"I wish you and everyone else in CX good luck in your dealings with the company and I hope they give us all a damn good pay rise, we all need it. Hong Kong is not getting any cheaper."

I am far from enlightened. I doubt very much your view is held by your fellow DPA members, because what you are saying is that you are so intimidated by your management that you believe it falls upon the AOA to flex the slightest industrial muscle on your behalf to try and get "us" a pay rise. What makes you think your management is more ruthless than ours? You appear ignorant of industrial history. Someone could write a best-seller about ours!!!

An opportunity existed late year for the DPA and AOA to present a unified front to the CPA group. That did not happen. It seems your belief in unity extends to shouting encouragement to us from the sidelines. Sorry, I don't consider that unity.

ASH1111,

Kindly re-read my post. I did not say a deal must be presented by 30th April. The point i am making is the potential exists for the back-dating to end unless a deal is done by 30 Apr and, to my way of thinking, that would akin to having a baseball bat inserted.

As for reaching a boiling point, we shall see. There was lots of chest-beating in November last year and yet the membership meekly accepted a 0% payrise for 2013 and a promise of talks and some back-dating.

[Shot Nancy]

oh and KA get their work shoes and medicals paid for by the company
That's what I'm after. Where do I sign? :yuk:

[Sergeant Rock]

Oh dear...:ugh: that's the last time I post on this site. Liam you need help son.

[FO Ho Lee Fuk]

There was lots of chest-beating in November last year and yet the membership meekly accepted a 0% payrise for 2013 and a promise of talks and some back-dating.

That was decided for by the AoA GC/NC.. Not the membership..

[cxorcist]

Yes Rod. I remember. It has gone awfully quiet as of late. I sure hope this is fueling everyone's "hate fire" rather than appealing to their pragmatic side. Nothing has changed except that half a year has gone by with no results. Inflation continues to steadily chomp away at our package with no end in sight. We may have missed the Christmas through Chinese NY peaks, but there will be others. Notably, this summer comes to mind.

Best advice I ever received in CX, "Don't get mad, get even!" We all know how that works, and in HKG where strikes are illegal, it is our best hand to play. Certain demographics are playing it better than others. Maybe it's time everyone got onboard. That especially includes G day workers!

[goathead]

Couldn't agree more but I'm not surprised one iota with this current AOA leadership a complete disgrace , needs a full sweep through , from the admin staff to the bickering GC to the holy than thou elders running the show ....

[Karrupted]

Contrary to popular belief among pilots in HK, it is perfectly legal to strike. Just last year dock workers went on strike for 40 days, eventually gaining a 9.8% wage rise for their efforts ... And construction workers, " bar-benders", did the same some years earlier.
The reason a strike is never seriously considered by the mainly expat pilot community is that the average overheads of a pilot with family in HK are so horrendously high ...
If you want more info, just contact the CTU and they will tell you how to go about it.