New AFTLS effective March 1

[Oval3Holer]

Check your company email!

[flyingsheep]

so what does that exactly mean? no W patterns? 3 man crew europe?

[nitpicker330]

Just from a quick read and from what I've previously heard NO, if they do that then for 3 man flights:--
1/ more rest in Europe will be required. Ref 7.1.21.3D
2/all 3 Pilots need a P1 rating. Ref 7.1.7.2

Regarding W patterns:--
after a ULRO duty cycle not less than 4 DDO's MUST be taken, therefore no W's Ref 7.1.22.6

So not likely to change for most of Europe except maybe FRA?

W's....gone

[asianeagle]

W's....gone

good!! now we can all share the pain and get some decent patterns in HKG:ok:

[ETOPS240]

I read it as Ws are permitted, but not ULRO.

Also, ULRO being scheduled sector times greater than 16 hours - that's only return legs of our very longest NAM sectors, during winter. All other current scheduled flights fall under LRO or normal ops.

So I'd suggest Ws will survive. Perhaps a few less available, however.

[DDDOF]

Actually the only ULRO is the return flight from JFK sector time over 16 hours. So as long as a JFK pattern isn't used as the first half of a W pattern they should still be able to do them.
Or they could just adjust the return sector from JFK by a few min and it wouldn't be a ULRO either.

[SloppyJoe]

Great to see the good faith continuing. A document they have had for months, released late on Friday, the day before it's implemented!

How people can have faith by the way the new GMA talks is amazing.

[nitpicker330]

Yes you are right, 16 hrs constitutes a ULRO. So most W's should still be legal....:ugh:

[744drv]

So, looking at the new tables A and B. If you are unacclimatised (more than 3 hrs from HBT) then table B is applicable. However if you have not gone as far East-West as 6 time zones then no physiological rest (7.1.21.3 B and B). All references to a leg stretch pilot under table B refer to 7.1.21.3A and B, so as far as I can see whenever you fly home from a 4 or 5 hr timezone routing you are not going to get a 3rd pilot. So DXB to HKG regardless of time of day or length of sector (<10 hrs) will be a 2 man operation??

[744frt]

2 man to Oz?

[AQIS Boigu]

So DXB to HKG regardless of time of day or length of sector (<10 hrs) will be a 2 man operation?? 744drv,

I think you are partially wrong on this one...both HK-DXB flights on the Airbus during the winter schedule have a scheduled sector time of 9:10 and 9:15 so the 3rd pilot has to be boarded regardless of the departure time.
see ref 7.1.14.1B

The summer schedule is a different story of course when the scheduled sector times are under 9hrs hence 2 crew.

Please correct me if I am wrong...I am not a rostering expert...

AB

[AQIS Boigu]

744frt,

See my previous post...no change to SYD and MEL...PER and CNS have always been 2 crew.

The only flight which could be changed to 2 man is the BNE flight; but apparently all BNE based captains wrote a letter to the bosses expressing a serious safety issue if the BNE night flights are crewed without the 3rd pilot.

This is only from an Airbus perspective doing around 0.81 - not sure how fast the cargo guys fly to SYD/MEL...

AB

[744drv]

Aquis,

The 9 hour sector time is only included under Table A ... the Acclimatised table. However, under Table B there is no such caveat. Returning to HKG from DXB or RUH you will be unacclimatised and operating under Table B. Thus you can fly a 10 hour scheduled sector trip that can end up in an FDP of 13 hours following a 2 hr odd delay on the ground. And all of this could be happening through the night time.

[XFR8]

or not .... if you are fatigued.

[AQIS Boigu]

747drv,

yep...you are indeed right...unless you can get through the fine print at the bottom of table B...

AB

[744drv]

"7.1.25.5 Will have an average of at least 8 DDOs in each consecutive 28 days period, averaged over three such periods."

... is that just a complicated way of saying "an average of 24 DDOs in a rolling 84 day period"??

[dkul]

SloppyJoe..you might want to check your calender....the FTL's are effective from March 1.....so you still have 2 weeks.

[China Flyer]

I've been bent over for so long now, for so many, that even my chiropractor has given up and joined the queue behind me!

[nitpicker330]

Yes agreed, Cx operating in good faith!!! Yeah right...:D

However, what can we REALLY do about it? Strike?? Won't happen.:sad:

Just do what you have to do to manage your lifestyle and fatigue.:ok:

[Oasis]

What was the point of me putting in my requests last month?
Now all pilots won't get what the asked for for march.
Are they trying to piss us off on purpose?

[nitpicker330]

Why won't we get first requests or trips for March? Not a huge change in rostering..........

I guess we will know in about 6 hours time......:eek:

[12wheeler]

What about the pay rise??? Another diversion? :confused:

[MrClaus]

The only other option than taking the odd 'personal roster adjustment' is to keep putting in the ASRFs. It doesn't change much in the short term, but it's the only way we can kill their back door attempt to slide in roster disruption but under another name.

[broadband circuit]

Are they trying to piss us off on purpose?

You're pretty new around here, aren't you.........

[geh065]

My roster is no different to normal. Not sure what the fuss was all about.

[A3301FD]

Q12. "There is no Intention to reduce crew compliments..."

There's that word again..."intent."

I think we will find that word being utilized a great deal...again.

[AQIS Boigu]

From CH...

"We are still intending to avoid any rest periods between 18 to 30 hours..."

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Just from a quick read and from what I've previously heard NO, if they do that then for 3 man flights:--
1/ more rest in Europe will be required. Ref 7.1.21.3D
2/all 3 Pilots need a P1 rating. Ref 7.1.7.2

And the current RPs "Manning Levels" stops them.

However

7.1.7.2 allows them to schedule Europe flights as 4 man but with 2 SOs because the Scheduled Sector Time is less than 15 hours. Lowest cost option for the flight in terms of combined salary, HOTAC and accumulated FDP.

7.1.7.2. Augmented Crew
The boarding of extra Flight Crew members for the purpose of providing relief at the controls. When four pilots are boarded for flights with a Scheduled Sector Time of 15 hours or more, a maximum of one pilot may hold a P2X rating. When three pilots are boarded for flights with a Scheduled Sector Time of 12 hours or more each pilot must be P1 rated on type.

While the 2 SO option is currently possible, I hope the new RPs tightens up the Manning Levels section to ensure that a crew has a maximum of 1 SO.

[Long Dong Silver]

I've checked the roster for March and as far as I see the EUR patterns are still only using 1 SO (4 man sectors <15 hours)

[asianeagle]

Have to say my March roster is bloody good..(Airbus) hoodathunk!!!
bottom line is chaps, when you get to destination and you feeling a little fatigued...go sick!!

And do it down route...not on base, cos they just call a reserve!

If it happens enough, the change there thinking, regardless of rules.
Thats how the girls do it in the back.

[777drv]

Guys,
The March roster was created under the new FTL's, so what you see is what you get... W's are still there and no three man LRO.

[geh065]

Three man LRO seems pretty restrictive to me. They can dispense with one crew but lose the remaining to an extra day downroute. Doesn't seem to be something beneficial to the company unless someone calls in sick and begrudgingly they roster it as 3-man.

[404 Titan]

geh065

Unless the next move of the chess pieces is the CAD allowing initial base training for a P1 rating to be conducted only in the SIM. This would in turn allow all SO’s to have a P1 rating. In the magical wave of the wand CX has saved money with the initial P1 training, and eliminated one flight crew member from the flight deck on LRO that is considerably more expensive than an SO. There is still the obstacle of currency but maybe a restriction that they are cruise FO’s only without the currency requirements of a full FO, if that is possible in HK?

[SloppyJoe]

If the base training were sim only then I assume the 6 sims SOs do each year would keep them current.