Commuting

[Trinovid]

My big company has recently severely restricted commuting by its pilots. For example, we are not allowed to take a passenger flight in the morning in order to operate an aircraft in the afternoon for example. Reason given: fatigue. The company goes so far to state that the normal CAA flight time limitations apply when commuting by air.

What are the rules in your company?
Are you allowed to travel prior to starting your duty?
If so, are there any restrictions?

[Trinovid]

Gentlemen, I assure you that I am nothing more than a very concerned commuter. I stand to loose about two to three days at home each month due to these strict rules. That's 20% of my private time lost. I'm very sorry that you think I am a trol. A simple IP check by the mods will show I'm not. Just very concerned by the way my managers re-interpret the flight time limitations hence my curiosity regarding commuting in other airlines.

As someone stated before, in no way am I more tired after a commuting short haul flight to base than my colleague who lives at his base but had to bring the kids to school, do some groceries, clean the house etc. etc.

My greatest worry is the idea that a commuter is bound by the flight time limitations in OMA! Hence my question how other airlines deal with this. No trolling here. Just a new nick name to guard my anonimity after years of activity on PPRuNe.

[FlyingStone]

My company treats any kind of commuting by air as FDP and therefor you need rest of 10/12 hours - depends on what is nominated as your home base.

[finncapt]

When I worked, now retired, for a large UK airline I used to commute, initially from Paris and later from Finland to LGW or LHR.

I often thought that I was less tired than when I drove from my Kent home, some 76 miles from LHR and around the M25.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

This is going to be an interesting discussion - particularly with EASA FTL looming in the UK :\

[wiggy]

in no way am I more tired after a commuting short haul flight to base than my colleague who lives at his base but had to bring the kids to school, do some groceries, clean the house etc. etc.

Know what you mean, I'd also agree entirely with finncapt's comments. Trouble is the legislators can't/won't quantify fatigue caused by one's domestic situation and are hardly going to take a hard line on drivers....OTOH travelling by air is easy to track.

FWIW our rule is still a "soft" one along the lines that if your journey to work takes more than 2 hours one should consider making arrangements to have accomodation available nearer the airport.

My journey is a combination of road and air, I'm on the move for about 2 hours, I've considered it...;)

[macdo]

Just out of interest,OP, what is your fall back plan if your commuter flight is cancelled or delayed?
Personally, I couldn't take the stress, but I do know someone who sits at a regional airport with an open ticket on his SBY's! But thats for LH, which make it all a bit more manageable.

Just to add, my outfit merely says you must live 1.5hrs from base, if you choose to live abroad you would have to travel the day before and be in the country for your SBY's.

[babotika]

Not a troll... I'm also curious as to what others can & can't do.

I believe that travelling by air to work is far less stressful than driving. I get on the plane, instantly fall asleep and only wake up as the engines are switched off again - far less fatiguing than having to concentrate on the road for 40+ minutes. The same could be said for a train or bus journey.

Sure the plane/train/bus might get delayed/cancelled/etc but then what about the car not starting, a puncture, an accident, etc etc etc. If you're late you're going to be late unless you sleep in the crew room. How you get there really shouldn't matter in the least.

[Trinovid]

macdo, I have two other options to reach my base so no problems there. How many cars have you got to guarantee you reach the airport on time? :ok:

As a commuter you very quickly learn what is sensible and what is not. Yes, a minority abuse the system at a cost to the company, so punish them. But leave the rest of us alone.

[macdo]

Well 3 plus a bike if all else fails LOL!
The reason I asked is that personally I get very stressed about being late and leave a ridiculous amount of time to get to work for the unexpected. I have managed to be late twice in 16 years and I remember both days clearly! Now I must go and get my blood pressure pills......

[HundredPercentPlease]

Yes, a minority abuse the system at a cost to the company, so punish them. But leave the rest of us alone.

Hmmm.... Nick those that do 90mph, but leave us who do 85mph alone...

If you disagree with a law, don't have a go at the police, have a go at the lawmakers. In this case it's the CAA, not the company, you should be aiming at.

[Trinovid]

Well, that is exactly my question HundredPercentPlease, what does the CAA say about commuting as a passenger? Does the CAA offer any commuter-specific guidance and regulations?

[Skyjob]

Here a link to Certification Specifications and Guidance Material for Commercial Air Transport by Aeroplane — Scheduled and Charter Operations, CS-FTL.1, Initial Issue 31 January 2014 (http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2014/2014-002-R/CS-FTL.1%20-%20Initial%20Issue.pdf)
GM1 CS FTL.1.200 Home base
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.

It does NOT define how the time is spent during the 90 minutes travelling time, so it could be by air... Open to interpretation...

[HundredPercentPlease]

Trinovid,

The CAA produces guidelines that (generally) must be adopted in the OM as part of the AOC approval process. The OM then becomes the defining document.

So you need to get an alleviation from the CAA, which then has to be incorporated and approved in the OM.

To do this, you will have to show that "positioning by air" has no impact at all on max FDP, and your rationale will be that positioning by air is not tiring (or is just as tiring as normal home life). You will be met with some considerable resistance to this idea - mostly from pilots. If you believe that going to an airport, checking in and travelling as a pax for a 2 hour sector should not count in the slightest as FDP, then you also believe that I can be called in by my company, shoved in the back (as a regular pax) for a sector, and then have my FDP start down route.

You can't ignore a rule/principle just because it suits you on one day, and then reverse it because it doesn't suit you on another.

As a pilot group we have fought long and hard to prevent positioning sectors from being discounted from FDP calculations. If you want to be able to position on the day to suit your living arrangements, then you are asking the rest of the world to be positioned by the company on a duty day and have all the FDP calculations to be started after that positioning.

[wiggy]

You can't ignore a rule/principle just because it suits you on one day, and then reverse it because it doesn't suit you on another.

Agreed, and I also take the point that associations have rightly fought hard to include positioning in the FDP.....however...:hmm:, talking of ignoring principles:

In the OP's case, under his company's new (proposed?) rule set it would be illegal for him to drive to an airport, to sit down the back and subsequently operate.

However under the new rule set he can drive to an airport, sit down the back and subsequently operate........

I agree that some commuters take the **** but in my experience that includes both some of those that travel by air and some of those that travel by road, rail and tube (who when questioned will say "ah, but I sleep on the train" or " ah, but I stop at the motorway services for a catnap", ), but those that travel into work by air are definitely easier to monitor (if they travel with their own airline) and an easier target.

All that said I have no idea what you do about it, some companies will no doubt favour the sort of ban described by the OP, and it's sure to become higher profile under the new regs.....

[Trinovid]

If you believe that going to an airport, checking in and travelling as a pax for a 2 hour sector should not count in the slightest as FDP, then you also believe that I can be called in by my company, shoved in the back (as a regular pax) for a sector, and then have my FDP start down route.


With all respect, let's turn your argument around. Sitting on a couch at home watching tv or surfing the net does not generally have an effect on FDP. You could do that all day long and then report for duty operate a Sharm. So, using your above argument against commuting, time spent for example on airport standby should not count towards FDP. Some even manage to sleep on that couch, or sip Coffee in Costa for hours.

See the flaw in your logic?
Wether or not something counts towards FDP has more to do with the question who is in charge of that time than what is actually being done. As a commuter it is my decision to commute and I commute in my own spare time in a way I find suitable. Positioning however, like airport standby, is done on behest of the company, they tell you what to do and how to do it, wether you want it or not, wether you are tired or not. Hence the FDP clock starts ticking and rightly so.

So I don't see any reason why commuting has any influence in FDP claims towards positioning. To me that's seems a bit far fetched.

[Trinovid]

GM1 CS FTL.1.200 Home base
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.

Thanks for that link skyjob.
I'm not sure what this rule actually says about commuting. In fact, it encourages commuting doesn't it. It details exactly what commuters already do for years: they usually have a little apartment close to the base airport.

The guys who travel long distances by car every day should heed this rule more than the commuter in my opinion.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Trinovoid
You need to comment on 100% pleases reply!!!
Crew members responsibilities
Time awake (a big Union discussion on EASA FTL)
Commuting by air is less tiring than driving etc - agreed, biggest risk to a pilot is driving home
If your reporting at 1100 do you catch the 0700 flight before, up at 0500.
Operating flight is delayed by 4hrs now what do you do? Pax Flight is cancelled - ring in sick? tut tut that might be me on the flight that gets cancelled as they have no standby. Have you thought about the commercial risk - you're a highly paid professional Pilot
You have made an honest argument just don't think you'll get much support from the Union let alone the regulator.

[captplaystation]

Bottom line is . . . if you choose (or are obliged) to work somewhere/live somewhere else . . . you will be tired, unless you want/agree to sacrifice chunks of your time off.

Certain companies make it easier for you to do better, by offering base stability /transparent basing policy . . . others just screw with your head & your life.

If you commute by car/train /another company it is between you & your conscience, we all read the Colgan report right ? if you commute with your own company . . . well, use your imagination vis a vis the potential fallout/consequences.

Your company will, in the 1st instance, look after their own ass. They will fatigue you when it suits them, but will castigate you if you appear to be fatiguing yourself. . . but hey, you are an adult, did you really expect anything different :rolleyes:

[truckflyer]

"you're a highly paid professional Pilot" - LMAO :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[parabellum]

The guys who travel long distances by car every day


are pushing their luck, commuting is usually OK for long haul, done sensibly, using a B&B near the airport. Commuting short-haul is for the birds. After the Coglan accident you can only expect the company rules to get tighter.


The only person I knew who handled commuting and short haul well had a very well equipped camper van, but he was still away from home three to four nights a week.

[Megaton]

I commuted when I was on short haul. I bid for tours so I'd fly down to Heathrow, normally sleep on the aircraft, report for work then gypsy tour round Europe. If I had an early start I'd come down the night before. Easy.

[parabellum]

Very easy if you have a bid system - most airlines don't!

[Trinovid]

Hmmm, some interesting anti-commuting sentiment here. I can honestly say I am NOT tired, nor am I fatigued and I have been commuting for more than a decade. I have been flying with fellow commuters for years and they are all fine as well. So my conscience is clear, I have found a way to commute without being affected by it. It's honestly not a big deal if done sensibly. I am more worried by you who drive more than two hours each and every day.


Actually the Germans in EASA agree:
http://doczine.com/bigdata/2/1367193069_2cd813906b/coag.pdf

The need for specific rules for commuting was discussed, as it is a well-known factor that can potentially reduce aircrew sleep opportunity and increase fatigue before reporting for a duty. The Colgan Air flight 3407 accident in Buffalo has recently emphasised the issue of long commuter pilot. Even if commuting is a real concern in terms of safety, it is very unlikely that a regulation would be able to prevent long commuting regarding the complexity of this issue. One of the problem of a commuting regulation will be to set a limitation while the actual commuting time could vary very much as a function of the traffic conditions. Furthermore, a long commuting using public transportation is probably less tiring than a shorter commuting using a personal car. The STARE project has shown that there were no significant differences in sleep duration before a duty between long and short commuter. This is explained by the fact that long commuter use accommodation close to their base to ensure a sufficient rest before reporting for the duty. Therefore a more sensible approach to the issue of commuting would be enhancing aircrew responsibility through education and training.
A very interesting document which specifically says that commuting is more a matter of FRM than FTL. And they openly admit that the problem lies more with the daily commute, NOT the guys who take a flight at the beginning of the week because those tend to have accommodation close by!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Can't argue with that perhaps its more a case of you being caught up with the airline managing the usual 5% who spoil it for the majority.
I suspect by the fact that this post has few comments from the usual anti EASA FTL brigade that its an area that people don't want to talk about because they know the airlines have them by the short and curlies and with EASA FTL looming the airlines are obliged to look at it in much more detail :\

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Remember that when you are commuting by air you are breathing cabin bleed air at a lower pressure altitude than if you were driving or on a train which will affect your alertness.

EK pilots in Dubai still get limos provided to take them to work.

[Flying Clog]

Since when does uncle Otto's Volvo qualify as a 'limo'?

Must be great turning up at work an hour or more before sign on... who wants to spend time with their families anyway?

:}

[Al Murdoch]

Only a pilot could complain about being driven to work...
:ugh:

[wiggy]

Remember that when you are commuting by air you are breathing cabin bleed air at a lower pressure altitude than if you were driving or on a train which will affect your alertness

Well I hope companies remember that when planning slips/layovers in the likes of JNB, NBO or MEX ...:ok:

[Flying Clog]

"Only a pilot could complain about being driven to work..."

No thanks, they'll be wiping your backside next. And checking for piles while they're at it.

:ugh:

[halas]

The argument of "Operating flight is delayed by 4hrs now what do you do?" is invalid.
What about the other hundred or so punters on the same flight who missed meetings/connections/appointments.
If it's the same airline you work for, then that's their problem. IF you caught a scheduled flight that was to have you at home base by the FDL requirements, then you have done everything above board.

[safelife]

I believe an american carrier has a system wherein when you had two valid options to fly in for duty, and fail to get there, it's not your fault, only if you had just one valid option it's your bad.
Sounds fair enough.

[cactusbusdrvr]

That is indeed what we have. You have two flights to get to work. If both your flights have issues then you are covered. Fit to fly is at your determination. If there is an incident and they find you had been up for many hours commuting in you will be hung out to dry by the company and the FAA.

[captplaystation]

I lived with the "what if" scenario for a few years. If the aircraft I required to take me to work diverted I (would have , didn't have to , I was lucky for 2 years :D ) called in sick . . . . . simple, not because I am a lying bar steward, but because my company would have used "the truth", involving THEIR flight to crucify me . . . as per company SOP.

This, can happen, but , for anyone using the M25 or indeed any myriad of motorways/autoroutes/autovias/freeways anywhere worldwide. . .well, any of us can be screwed & stuck in a jam for 2 ? 3 ? 6 ? hrs. . . s - - t happens ! unfortunately Crewing Depts in "some" companies have to ignore this reality, because some ass who is being employed on much higher costs than a decently fed Rotweiller would cost (& usually has LESS intelligence) is breathing down their neck.

Just remember "I am sick " . . . . . .

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Well I hope companies remember that when planning slips/layovers in the likes of JNB, NBO or MEX

Good point, I totally forgot that the atmosphere around these cities was made up of cabin bleed air.:ok:

[Long Haul]

To answer your question, I work for a big European flag carrier, and we have no restrictions other than showing up for work fit, alert and on time, as any professional would do.