EASA training on MD500

[Dennis Kenyon]

Anyone here enlarge on the 'nil training by RTF FIs on a five-seat' rotary aircraft, since as we all know, the MD500 CAN ONLY be a four-seater in the training role. Forget for a moment the turbine aspect. DRK

[Hughes500]

If its a four seater its a four seater !!! Years ago I had this argument with Gatwick until Ron Jenkins put some common sense into the argument by saying the above. Don't understand the turbine bit in some cases the turbine is less complicated then a piston, after all it is a blow torch turning a few wheels !!! Drop me a PM maybe able to help through my TRTO

[Dennis Kenyon]

Many thanks for the offer, but I'm not needing to do anything at present. Its just that I felt this EASA nonsense should be put under the spotlight.

Who dreams up these changes? I'm sure there are different views on here tho' Perhaps you and I don't have enough FI experience! DRK.

[FLY 7]

The Enstrom 480B is also a '5-seater'.

[rotarywise]

Far from being 'EASA nonsense', registered facilities being limited to giving PPL instruction in helicopters with a maximum certificated seating capacity of not more than 4 was a JAA requirement and has not been carried forward into the EU Regulation. Once an RTF becomes an ATO it can, in theory, offer a PPL(H) on a twin, although it would be a long and very expensive process.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Well aware of all that ... shouldn't the aim be to improve our industry not simply plod head down in the same old footsteps! DRK

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

I'm with you DK I feel sorry for the guy trying to get though their ppl exams at the minute as the requirements seem to be changing faster than they can take them . Just hope the new red tape challenge thingy doesn't just produce more :ugh:

[md 600 driver]

Surely the 500 and the 480 are only 4 seats when duals are installed esp for training
Steve

[Hughes500]

rotarywise, not really helpful to point out the JAA bit as we were allowed for a time to do pplh in a 500 as it is 4 seats with duals in. I have certainly done a couple admittedly about 10 years ago now. It is now the turbine engine that is the stumbling block, God knows why ? An engine is an engine as long as it works and you know how to start it and what happens when it starts misbehaving so what !!!
I am afraid EASA combined with where Gatwick is going is killing our industry. Have just been working with The Irish, Check and Swedish CAA what a difference in attitude and ability, for one you can pick up the phone and speak to someone who actually gives you an answer.
In fact I am going to stop there as it is a Sunday and I am trying to enjoy the day as I can see a bit of blue sky. Out with the mountain bike and away from all this nonsense:ugh:

[stringfellow]

I have recently fulfilled my lifetime anbition of gaining a 500 type rating. Id love to do a sortie with mr kenyon sometime, il have to nip down in our 500c one day!!

Just to clarify as its not apparent from the posts, are you saying you cannot do a full ppl course in a 500?? It seems a good trainer all round as well as a stellar performer.

Best regards, chris.

[timprice]

Love it!
Dennis you go get them.:D
Also 500 only 4 seater in training mode and Enstrom 480 only 3.

[md 600 driver]

Are we saying you can't do a full ppl in a turbine now were in easa ??

[Hughes500]

yes you can but only at an EASA ATO that has the approval to do so Currently you can at an FTO but not at an RF !!!

[Dennis Kenyon]

Hi Stringfellow ... you're more than welcome to do some mutual MD500 flying with me or Tim Price any time .... but do note ... no training!!! Furboten! DRK

[timprice]

Its going full circle, because everyone has to be an ATO shortly and therefore all training will be approved training, it will be up to you what types you have on your approval so if you wish you could do PPL'S in Bell 222.:O

[Ready2Fly]

I fail to find the requirements for helicopters used for PPL training in Part-FCL (both GM & AMC). If i recall correctly during JAR-FCL it was clear: max. 4 seats and single engine only.

One prerequistite remains though: You would need 70h PIC in the twin before conducting the PPL(H) skill test (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Blanketter/Luftfart/Certifikat_och_utbildning/L1677-2_report_form_for_the_ppl_-h_skill_test_on_single-engine_or_multi-engine_helicopters%20.pdf).

[timprice]

I just looked at the requirements laid down and perhaps it's listed else where, nothing about single or twin here?: OR ON OUR ppl(h) application form in UK.
One other thought it's typical that someone in Germany points out the fact on Swedish form, so he will have to do a lot of solo prior to getting his PPL (H).:confused:
EASA Private Pilot Licence for Helicopters – PPL(H)
1 Applicability
The holder of an EASA PPL(H) may exercise the privileges of the licence to fly EASA
Helicopters registered in the EU.
2 Privileges
EASA Helicopters – The privileges and conditions of the EASA PPL(H) are defined in
FCL.205 and FCL.205.H as follows:
FCL.205 Privileges and conditions
Applicants for the issue of a PPL(H) shall have fulfilled the requirements for the
type rating for the helicopter used in the skill test, as established in Subpart H of
EASA Part-FCL.
FCL.205.H PPL(H) Privileges and conditions
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(H) are to act without remuneration as PIC
or co-pilot of helicopters engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b)Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(H) with instructor or
examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:
(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(H) or PPL(H);
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these
Non-EASA Helicopters – Non-EASA helicopter type ratings cannot be added to an
EASA licence. For the addition of a non-EASA helicopter type rating, a pilot will require
a UK national licence with the Non-EASA type rating.
3 Requirements
An applicant for a Part-FCL Licence, Rating or Certificate must satisfy the General
Requirements applicable to all Part-FCL licences as set out in Section 4, Part A.
An applicant for the EASA PPL(H) shall comply with the following Part-FCL
requirements:
FCL.200 Minimum Age
FCL.205 Conditions
FCL.205.H Privileges
FCL.210 Training Course
FCL.210.H PPL(H) — Experience requirements and crediting
FCL.215 Theoretical Knowledge Examination
FCL.235 Skill Test
For convenience the text of these requirements is reproduced below, edited for
clarity as described in the Foreword. In case of doubt, reference should be made to
the EASA Aircrew Regulation (Regulation 1178/2011).
Part-MED stipulates that applicants for and holders of the PPL(H) shall hold a valid
Class 1 or Class 2 medical certificate.
FCL.200 PPL(H) — Minimum age
Applicants for the PPL for helicopters — PPL(H) shall be at least 17 years of age;
FCL.205 and FCL.205.H PPL(H) — Privileges and Conditions
As above.
FCL.210 PPL(H) — Training Course
Applicants for a PPL(H) shall complete a training course at an ATO. The course shall
include theoretical knowledge and flight instruction appropriate to the privileges
given.
FCL.210.H PPL(H) — Experience requirements and crediting
(a) Applicants for a PPL(H) shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight
instruction on helicopters, 5 of which may have been completed in an FNPT or
FFS, including at least:
(1) 25 hours of dual flight instruction; and
(2) 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 5 hours of solo
cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least
185 km (100 NM), with full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from
the aerodrome of departure.
(3) 35 of the 45 hours of flight instruction have to be completed on the same
type of helicopter as the one used for the skill test.
(b) Specific requirements for an applicant holding an LAPL (H). Applicants for a
PPL (H) holding an LAPL (H) shall complete a training course at an ATO. This
training course shall include at least 5 hours of dual flight instruction time and at
least 1 supervised solo cross-country flight of at least 185 km (100 NM), with full
stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure.
(c) Applicants holding a pilot licence for another category of aircraft, with the
exception of balloons, shall be credited with 10% of their total flight time as PIC
on such aircraft up to a maximum of 6 hours. The amount of credit given shall in
any case not include the requirements in (a)(2).
FCL.215 PPL(H) —Theoretical Knowledge Examination
Applicants for a PPL(H) shall demonstrate a level of theoretical knowledge
appropriate to the privileges granted through examinations in the following
subjects:
(a) Common subjects:
— Air law,
— Human performance,
— Meteorology, and
— Communications;
(b) specific subjects concerning the different aircraft categories:
— Principles of flight,
— Operational procedures,
— Flight performance and planning,
— Aircraft general knowledge, and
— Navigation.
FCL.235 PPL(H) — Skill Test
(a) Applicants for a PPL(H) shall demonstrate through the completion of a skill test
the ability to perform, as PIC on helicopters, the relevant procedures and
manoeuvres with competency appropriate to the privileges granted.
(b) An applicant for the skill test shall have received flight instruction on the same
type of helicopter to be used for the skill test.
(c) Pass marks
(1) The skill test shall be divided into different sections, representing all the
different phases of flight appropriate to the helicopter flown.
(2) Failure in any item of a section will cause the applicant to fail the entire
section. Failure in more than 1 section will cause the applicant to fail the
entire test. If the applicant fails only 1 section, he/she shall repeat only that
section.
(3) When the test needs to be repeated in accordance with (2), failure in any
section, including those that have been passed on a previous attempt, will
cause the applicant to fail the entire test.
(4) Failure to achieve a pass in all sections of the test in 2 attempts will require
further training.

[rotarywise]

There is nothing in the Regulation to prevent a PPL being completed in a turbine, which is why I was questioning the accusation that it was 'EASA nonsense'. It may very well be 'UK CAA nonsense' but that's a cross we all have to bear.

The restriction used to be there in JAR-FCL but is not there in Part-FCL - how does that represent 'plodding along in the same footsteps'?

[Dennis Kenyon]

RW ... let's hope you are correct. I'd love to think so. But I haven't yet spoken to any current FI who believes turbine PPLs can be carried out by a training facility. As a 14k FI guy, (and one of many) I'd like to think we older instructors could pass down our experience to the new men ... and before I fall off my particular perch too! Take care all. DRK

[Ready2Fly]

One other thought it's typical that someone in Germany points out the fact on Swedish form, so he will have to do a lot of solo prior to getting his PPL (H).:confused:


It was the only document at the time where i found a notice regarding multi engine helicopters while conducting a PPL(H) skill test.

The regulation is in Part-FCL.720H (c) (2)
in the case of applicants who have not completed an ATP(H)/IR, ATP(H), or CPL(H)/IR integrated training course, have completed at least 70 hours as PIC on helicopters.

Additionally it seems he needs to comply with FCL.720.H (c) (1) (ii):
hold a certificate of completion of a pre-entry course conducted by an ATO. The course shall cover the following subjects of the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge course:

Aircraft General Knowledge: airframe/systems/power plant, and instrument/electronics
Flight Performance and Planning: mass and balance, performance;


But other than that, no problem doing a PPL course in a BO105, Bell222, AW109S ... :ok:

[timprice]

Its hard for all of us trying to keep up with EASA, I think there should be a simpler solution, after all the more people that put there little piece in the more of a mess it gets.
Too many cooks spoil the broth!:ugh: